The Thursday Show: What's the future of design centers? Plus: Pantone's controversial Color of the Year

24:24I think Andre Malone and Dan think we'll be just fine. We'll check in, right? We'll check in with them and their careers. And my guess is exactly they'll be doing just fine. In the meantime, we've got another controversy we've got to jump into. This time it's all around color. Last week, Pantone chose a white shade called Cloud Dancer as its 2026 color of the year, sparking swift backlash from critics. And yes, they took to social media in great numbers. Some people burning their Pantone books. Strong messages being sent. What did you make of it all, Fred? Well, let's go to the critics that I care most about, your Instagram followers, Dennis.

25:03I know you put this up on your feed. What did people say? It was all over the place. Some people, so Melissa Feldman, longtime journalist in the home industry, just felt it was lazy and uninspired, right? And there were a lot of people just in that camp. Why didn't you just try harder, for heaven's sakes? Many people took this as a strong racial statement and felt that this was a time where sending this kind of message was not only irresponsible but dangerous. Other people felt that surely they cooked this up as this brilliant PR scheme. Well done, Pantone. There you go. You wanted us to be talking about it and we're talking about it.

25:48Others, designer Amy Vermillion, you know, did a video and sent me quite a lengthy note about, listen, more than anything, we just wanted some fun color to lean into. We're kind of done with white. We're kind of done with the messaging around that. And also she was worried that the white message was a bit of a recessionary message a la our earlier conversation about rate cuts. And I think a lot of people felt the same way. You know, are you saying, oh, we need to dial back the color and the enthusiasm? So a lot of opinions, but few people without an opinion, Fred, let's say that. Yes, well, a lot to unpack there.

26:25And my own take was this was a big boucle was behind all of this. Yes, I love your take on social media. The makers of ivory boucle got in Pantone's ear and said, we're dying out there. And that's a powerful group, as we know. Yes. I mean, it's complicated. I mean, just to sort of break it down. I mean, I will say like the initial reaction among people that I follow on Instagram was much more about blah, like, come on. Like, you know, designers love color. We've been stuck in this kind of sad beige era. I mean, I personally, I think sad beige can be done well, but we've been in that moment for a minute.

26:58And I think a lot of designers are really craving a return to color. I think retailers are talking about it. I'm sure RH color is just around the corner. any minute exactly and so this felt a little bit weird like last year was mocha mousse which felt like i'm sure some people were sort of bored by that but it felt like it really hit the mark of what certainly interior designers were talking about and was saying was the dominant look of the of the moment whereas i don't know i don't i don't get the sense that oh we're suddenly seeing a return to minimalism or pared down colorless looks at this this felt sort of strange to me and that was kind of the first initial round of reactions from designers you know and you know i I agree with that.

27:34You know, I'm very much not a market editor or someone who like pays attention to as much attention to style as some of my colleagues. But it seemed like a weird choice from that perspective. You know, you mentioned sort of the racial political angle. You know, it's interesting because I do think like absolutely like the people's concerns about the, you know, racism in the design industry are totally founded. It's not like we solved it in 2020 after the reckoning that was had in this industry. And I think people should be, you know, rightly pointing out racial issues that come up in the industry.

28:05I can't imagine that Pantone was going for that when they chose this. But then there's the question of, were they just simply naive? Did they not understand that it would be perceived that way by people in the marketplace, which is maybe a different kind of error? But you said maybe this is sort of like a rage-based stunt, like you're trying to get a conversation going. And I don't know. I don't imagine that they're too happy about how this has gone in the Pantone offices today. What do you think, though? No, exactly. I don't want to believe that this is what they wanted, but I also, it makes me wonder, is their circle that small that they didn't know that this was going to cause that kind of reaction?

28:43Had they taken this out to a broader, wider group of people, I can't imagine it wouldn't have been shut down pretty early on. So it makes me wonder that, did they get that feedback and said, oh, well, who cares? It's such a great color. We're going to go with it anyway. It's such a great color. I mean, Cloud Dancer. I just feel like we just love it so much. I don't care if people are upset. But anyway, I mean, all of that said, it seems for designers, as you were just suggesting, more than anything, just disappointing. Designers were feeling excited about color. They were feeling, oh, let's get into maximalism.

29:17Let's get into where the English design is leading us. All of those conversations. And then this just seemed to knock all that down. And again, not that every designer is looking to Pantone as they're jumping off point for decisions that they're making, but they they wanted a different message coming out of this, clearly. No question. And I think it's also like it really is a sign of the times, as you said. Like, it's funny because they talked a lot about how, you know, this was the first time that Pantone had chosen, you know, any shade of white as its color of the year, you know, in the 26 or 27 years they've been doing it.

29:51But actually, Benjamin Moore did have, I think Simply White was in 2016. And at the time, I think probably some people were bored by it. But I don't remember there being a controversy. I think it was just like, okay, it just shows you how not only the political landscape has changed, but also the media landscape has changed. It's just like you put something out, people have a reaction to it. People get angry. Somebody gets angry at the person getting angry. Like it's just a whole, you know, and of course now you and I are part of this now. Exactly. So it just becomes unavoidable that everything becomes, you know, a football that gets kicked back and forth.

30:26And it's funny because all this really is is a white square, but a white square on Pantone's website and all of this controversy because of that. Kind of crazy. Lots of opinions and I think mostly just regret around this choice. So many people wondering, should we keep doing color of the year Pantone? I don't know. We should have stopped a long time ago. I do not see the utility in this, but that's just me. Sorry. Maybe that's the big message from this whole thing. Maybe this this ought to be it. Stick a stick a fork in it. Color of the year might just be done. And that's it. OK, that's the big takeaway.

31:02Moving on. Unfortunately, we have some sad news to share. Legendary American architect Frank Gehry passed away last week at the age of 96. After establishing his own firm in 1962, he became known for his rebellious stylistic approach, seen first in his bold redesign of his family's bungalow in Santa Monica. Though he earned the Pritzker Architecture Prize in 1989, one of his crowning achievements came later, with the 1997 unveiling of the Guggenheim Museum Bilbao, a titanium structure that helped revitalize the Spanish city, sparking a wave of similar architectural efforts in cities across the globe.

31:41As Gary told the New York Times in a 2012 interview, you go into architecture to make the world a better place. And I think he did. I mean, what an iconic architect, what an amazing life. You know, it's really sad to lose both Frank Gary and Robert A.M. Stern within the span of just a week or a couple of weeks. These are both incredibly accomplished people. I think it's kind of when you really step back and think about how idiosyncratic and eccentric Frank Gehry's work was and how popular it was on a massive scale. It's really kind of impressive and it's something you can only sort of marvel at.

32:12So this was, you know, a sad one, but he certainly has left his mark, you know, all over the world. To be sure. And as you say, both Stern and Gehry will be long studied and remembered and taught in schools. so really a meaningful impact for them both and yet their work so very different and their personalities too. So a lot to get into there. All right, that's it for the news but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the launch of a new wallpaper brand and Black Friday wins and losses. We'll be back in a minute but first, a quick break.

32:53Celebrating their one-year anniversary, June Lalloy is your newest destination for total home furnishings. As a young brand, they bring a fresh perspective, but as the brand run by the same family behind Lalloy rugs, they bring plenty of hard-won expertise. And if you're a member of the trade, June Lalloy's trade services remain unmatched. Backed by 20 years in the industry and exclusive benefits, including special pricing, a dedicated support team, and a seamless sourcing experience. Visit juneleloy.com to explore the latest and sign up for a trade account. That's j-o-o-n-l-o-l-o-i dot com. Clients slow schedules when they're confused.

33:39Programma gives them a single dashboard with the latest schedules and approvals, removing the back and forth that usually burns hours. It keeps both sides aligned so your team can stay focused on the work. Use BOH25 for 25 % off your first three months.

34:01And we're back. I'm joined now by the president of Jamestown, Michael Phillips. Michael, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Dennis. What a pleasure. Well, it's been an age since we've talked. I'm so glad to have you back. And there's so much to catch up on. You've been so busy in so many ways. I want to start by having you explain to people a little bit about Jamestown and all the many different things that you're involved with. And then we'll talk design centers, okay? So on Jamestown, we're 42 years old now. Gosh, it's gone by so fast. I think we have been investing in North and South America and Central Europe for retail, office, residential, mixed use sort of hubs, specializing a lot in the tech and media space.

34:53But some of the things we're known for in the U.S. are things like Chelsea Market and Industry City and the Boston Design Center, which is part of the IDB building. And then a series of hubs across cities like Amsterdam, Lisbon, Milan, Edinburgh in Scotland, London, a variety of sort of core cities throughout Europe. So a variety of things. We have a neighborhood in Milan, which is a lot about fashion and showrooms and tech. And so it leads to the great love of home and design. Well, I know that all roads lead back to your love of home and design. Yes, indeed, they do. You mentioned Boston, and last time we were talking, you were getting very involved with the Boston Design Center, and there was a lot going on there.

35:46Things have changed somewhat with your role there, or tell me. No, I mean, I think it's still the same. I think that we, at the time, the Boston Design Center is part of a 1.3 million square foot assemblage of an old army warehouse on the port of Boston. And like a lot of things that had become fractured ownership over time, we brought it back together. We created new infrastructure. we consolidated the design center into about 350 ,000 feet from where it started, which was just shy of 500 ,000 feet, and created a new retail concourse on the ground, which was for trade showrooms that wanted to be open to the public, as well as sort of an award-winning restaurant called Chickadee and a series of service uses, but really sort of reinforcing that trend, which I think is happening around many things, but certainly around design, which is you're seeing the evolution of street interior design and showrooming, as well as retail to the trade and alongside fashion and other lifestyle brands.

36:59And so we've really focused a lot in places like DC and Georgetown or in Atlanta in sort of creating these districts which are anchored in home, but also have a lifestyle and fashion as part of that. Interesting, because another one of the things that we touched on last time we were talking, you were eager for the design industry to be talking to the consumer much more and perhaps even reevaluating the to the trade pricing model and all of that. Have your thoughts altered or changed in any way around all of that? Or is that still a message that you're preaching? Well, let's unpack that a little bit because I think the nuance of that is important, which is I think what I have been focused on and advocating for or preaching, for lack of a better word, is that the barrier at the front door come down.

37:57I think showrooms, their pricing models should be maintained. I think it's important for designers to have an option in how they engage with the required amount of hands-on service it takes to take raw goods and turn them into finished goods. But what I think showrooms should do is have a retail price and a trade price and be willing to engage and provide the support when a consumer comes and wants to do business with them. Because part of what's happening in the world of social media is that more and more people think that they're qualified to do things that they may or may not be qualified to do and have access to get those things.

38:40But the industry also is challenged by the fact that they want more footfall and more access and more exposure, but to have your door locked and want to be on the street doesn't work. Or to want more foot traffic, but not be willing to engage them and educate them doesn't work. And so I think there are brands that are steadfastly committed to only dealing with professional designers, which I support. But at the same time, then you have to sort of be willing to not be at main and main or be in an intersection where the public comes to you. On the other hand, I think there are lots of brands that have models that they have experimented with, companies like Schumacher and Kravitz, for example, who come to mind, or the Shade Store or something like that, that is sort of doing a hybrid model.

39:35And I think that's a real growth path for how the industry can experiment. Let's start by talking about you getting involved in the Dakota and what was interesting to you about that opportunity. So one of the buildings that formerly was Charles Cohen's, and let's just say he had to part with it and the investors took it back and then you stepped in. Tell me how that came about and what your thinking was. I think there's incredible cohesion and commitment to the ecosystem of design and home, certainly in the United States and Britain, and to a large extent, in Central Europe. I think that as the industry has evolved, it's become quite lumpy in terms of the experiences that people have in different buildings.

40:31And so I certainly have an interest in playing a bigger role in that space. And the Dakota is really unique in that obviously South Florida has grown in lots of ways and you have splintering happening in Naples or in West Palm Beach, for example, you have the Miami design district, which is sort of a hybrid, but is sort of moving away from home incrementally over time. And so I think that Dakota offers something that's really interesting in that critical mass for shoppability and for inspiration and for engagement is important. And I think the design, the Fortress Design Center model is really important as a part of the ecosystem.

41:21And as other parts of the industry start to co-locate, whether it's architecture, engineering, commercial specification firms, AV companies, things that are support systems around the industry, I think those kinds of buildings are really important. I also think that things like fabric, which is a big driver of the industry, is best shopped when you can shop it widely across a lot of different solutions. So I like that. And so taking over the Dakota is an exciting thing for us and has been a lot of fun so far, which we just had a great fall market. We just ran a really interesting design speaker breakfast, which is good.

42:07And we've done a lot of recent leasing there and renewals, which has been terrific. We believe in kind of an in-good company strategy. So people that are not necessarily in our building, that are in the Hollywood Design Center or Miami or in Palm Beach, We want everybody to come together as a design community, and we think we can provide some stewardship around that and sort of ensuring that that beachhead is broad enough to encompass people, but also that particularly in looking at things, we have a significant Andean presence in South America in our business. And we're very focused on that sort of import, export IP and trade culture between North and South America and the Dakota's role in that, but also looking much more towards Europe and what we've seen happen with our Basel and with Miami Design and all of those things that are bringing in great, great companies.

43:07Well, that's part of what I'm wondering, because when you talk to when you talk to some of the skeptics about the Dakota, they will say, oh, people moved out years ago. It's time has passed. People have figured out another plan. Right. They've moved elsewhere and they've made other parts of town. They've made other areas of Miami more dynamic. And there isn't the there isn't the pull to come back to the Dakota in a meaningful way. What's your sense of that? Well, I think that design has undergone several waves of change. I think we have been living in the last sort of 15 years on the downward pressure on multi-line showrooms, just like we've lived through the downward pressure on multi-line fashion stores.

43:55And so I think what is happening is more specific individual stores and showrooms around a single brand. And I also think that it's never a one size fits all solution. And so there are people who have left the design center and have found other great places to be and can participate in events and programming. And there are people who need space and need co-location, and we are actively leasing to those people. So I don't think it's like saying there's only the Upper East Side in New York, and there's not Tribeca or Soho or the Lower East Side or Financial District or Chelsea. And so I think there's lots of room in the ecosystem for everything to thrive.

44:45So part of the hope, it sounds like this whole co-locate. I mean, interestingly, I was just talking to Dan Cahoon from Jerry Payer, who's in ADAC, right? And clearly the model of having a whole bunch of design firms located in that design center is really helping the vitality and the feeling that business is doing well. Right. And I think it is also, there's no questioning that the Dakota has not been functioning well for more than two decades. And so I think just operating it with more intentionality and through the lens of really caring about the ecosystem and about the industry is yielding good results.

45:33And I think there is the power of co-location, which in this industry still exists. I mean, you can go to Chelsea Harbor and you can say, I've heard for 30 years, Chelsea Harbor is not convenient. There's nothing to eat there. It's too far to go. And Pimlico Road is so nice. And we feel so good going to Pimlico Road. There's only so much Pimlico Road. And there's a full building in Chelsea Harbor. And if you want to shop, as I did three weeks ago for grass cloth, for headliners on a boat, the place that you do that is at Chelsea Harbor. And I think that that is true across the board. Well, what's interesting that you mentioned Chelsea Harbor, and so I was just with Claire German recently, who brings so much energy and vitality to that design center and makes you feel right like somebody is on the beat and and events galore that giant holiday party that they just had i mean wow house wow house exactly i mean you just feel like somebody is bringing energy to that space and it feels like that's what you need in these in these design centers to to make them thrive you know i come from a farming and ranching family ultimately originally And good land management is about nourishing the soil and rotating crops and leaving fields fallow and not over strip farming.

47:05And it's the same thing in any business, in any activity, whether it's your garden in your house or your home or it's a real estate business. And so I think nourishing things and showing them love and paying attention and showing up is half the battle. Well, so to your point about the Dakota, I mean, do you do you first have to just sort of helicopter in there and just kind of hold people's hands a little bit and say, listen, I know things have been rough for a while, but we're here now. We're going to reenergize this place and we're going to get it back. I think so. And I think that, I think if you were to talk to people today, I think the energy is very different than it was nine months ago.

47:50I also think that that has been a struggle, an intense public media struggle for several years that we've all followed from the edge of our seats. And so I think there's more changes to come there and, and we are certainly motivated to be a part of the solution. Well, and I wonder, I mean, to what I assume you're alluding to, some of these very powerful design centers being concentrated in one person's hands for all of these years, despite that person either clearly losing interest in the business or just making different financial decisions and not wanting to invest in that space in a meaningful way.

48:32the decorative center in houston now no longer part of the of the cohen portfolio uh and if you want to tell me that you're stepping in there feel free i don't know i i would certainly love to step in there and okay certainly interested in participating in that solution okay so perhaps talks are ongoing you'll let me know um but but then also i mean we've got that we've got the dnd building, which I'm guessing you'd also love to have, right? Do you want to tell me about conversations? You want to - No, I don't. Suffice to say, I think that we would love to be a participant in the solution of, and the evolution of design in the United States at scale.

49:19And I think also given what's happening with tariffs, I think there's a real value to IP from overseas being produced to the United States and distributed in the United States and that there's an opportunity in that space as well. And the ability to turn the levers around. You know, we wake up every day thinking that we're only successful if our tenants are successful and how can we make their businesses better and how can we help them thrive? And I think that the ability to do that and speak in a few markets at once, I think is a level of efficiency that is important to undertake. And so where we can be helpful, we want to do that.

50:02You just mentioned what's happening with tariffs. So what in your mind is happening with tariffs? What do you think the impact of all of this has been? And do you think this will have a lasting impact on a lot of manufacturing coming back to the States or how we think differently about imports or what's your take? So I think that the industry that we're talking about as a craft is fundamentally a craft industry. And I think we have so much skill in this country around that. And there's things like the Makers Alliance, which grew out of the Urban Electric Partnership. So if you start to think about what does on-shoring manufacturing look like and what's the opportunity in that, it's tremendous.

50:49I mean, we certainly made beautiful furniture in America very early. And some of that is some of the most valuable furniture one can buy today. So I think tariffs, not going to comment on good, bad, different, but to say that to have more things made in America is not a bad thing. And I think having distribution channels, which we've seen evolve with the advent of social media and people's ability to speak directly to a consumer and to connect is fascinating. And so I would like to encourage more of that. And to the extent that the inter-design showroom industry can be great supporters of that, I think it's only a positive outcome.

51:37You mentioned Charleston. And let's segue into talking about what you're doing there because there's a lot of excitement. And let's talk about Charleston and what you've done so far and what the big plan is. So we own what I would call the residue of the Charleston Navy Yard, which was the largest naval installation on the East Coast of the United States. And we own about 110 acres there, which has a series of buildings and really some tenants who are pretty amazing that were born out of that facility. um urban electric being one fritz porter being another a great local um smithy ironworks being a third robert long lighting another one so as we think about the rich kind of diverse ecosystem of the carolinas more broadly but specifically charleston and the college of the building arts and you know kind of traditional building skills it really dawned on me um celebrating that would be a really unique opportunity.

52:43And I would say a couple of things about the South and the Southern states that the seven Southern states that represent the Southern region of design, which Atlanta has always been the headquarters for at ADAP, that has shifted over the last few years. And the pilgrimage that Southern cities made to Atlanta and people's willingness to do that has shifted. And so you're seeing design districts pop up in a few different places, Nashville, Charlotte. So I think Charleston being a city that really is steeped in architectural heritage and a food culture and certainly a driving tourism culture as well as a flying tourism culture has a unique contribution to make the design space.

53:33On top of the companies we just talked about who kind of seeded it. So we have just opened our first phase of what will be the sort of broader Charleston design district with Holland and Sherry, Schumacher, Cravit. We have Textures flooring company. We have a variety of home interior design firms that are there as well. and we're about to announce the next wave of those showrooms. But the idea is to create a dialogue between what is indigenous quality of the place, but also to bring world-class design to the Carolina Lowcountry. And like Spoleto did almost 40 years ago in Arts and Culture and the Spoleto Festival, it's not about just exporting what is from Charleston.

54:26It's about creating this global design conversation and really kind of thinking about it from the construct of both the coastal markets from the Outer Banks to North Florida, but also the mountain and second home market and obviously all the cities in between and the kind of first home markets in between. And so, so far it's been received really positively and, and it's humble. It's not intended to be a great grand gesture of a statement, but to really kind of express what is happening in that conversation. So we have amazing companies like Juliska, the crystal company is based in Charleston. And so, you know, and I think, you know, I really love design and have quite a few personal expressions of that love.

55:21So that yielded yet another house in Charleston. So I think. Which you desperately needed. And I'm so glad you were able to. No, I don't know what I was thinking before I did that. I don't know how you were living without it for so long. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but it's interesting what you mentioned because, and this is going on around the country, but you mentioned Atlanta and everyone at one point making the trip. But now many people in Atlanta are realizing, hey, I've got to go all to these different territories. I've got to go to Nashville. I've got to go to Charlotte. I've got to make sure that people are being taken care of.

56:01And it's created this challenge around this design center model. Do you have little pop-ups? How does that work? How do you think about it? And I'm curious how you imagine that evolving. I mean, Charleston, we think of as a relatively small market. Well, I mean, so it's a million direct residents in the region growing to 2 million. So it's not necessarily a tiny market, but it's also a rapidly growing market. And when you expand that region up and down the coast and inland, it's quite astounding the size of that market. And so I think most companies will tell you that some of their most productive southern zip codes are within 100 miles of us.

56:46And so in terms of the design showrooms. And so I would say a little bit, I would call this earlier part of the conversation about the Dakota conversation. I think there's plenty of room for everything. And I think it is about the densification of regions. For a long time, Palm Beach was not a solution other than South Dixie Highway for antiquing, which we're all addicted to doing. I cannot tell you how many things in my life come from South Dixie. And so I think the idea that there's a burgeoning design district culture on South Georgia Avenue and on South Dixie is really great and robust, right?

57:37And if you think about that, is that a threat to South Florida and the Dakota? No, I think it's more in the process. So I think it's a little bit, I'd say the same thing about Atlanta is that, you know, 50 years ago, 60 years ago, Lenox Mall and Phipps Mall were the only option. And if you wanted to buy school clothes and fall clothes for your family, you drove two to five hours to Atlanta and you stayed in a motel hotel around Lenox Mall and you did your seasonal shopping and you drove back to your town. Right. And I think ADAC was built on that model. And ADAC was also owned by the Portmans.

58:20And they loved it and cherished, favored lots of great things on that for a long time. And I think that as things evolve, I think there's room in that space as well. So again, coming back to the D &D building, I mean, I know that there are challenges with that space and the land lease and all of this. I mean, do you think ultimately that design center remains a design center? I do. I think it's the single most dynamic design center in America. I think you'd find a large number of the people who would say if it was fixed tomorrow, they would go right back there. What do you think you would need to do to bring that building back to the time where it had a restaurant that was vibrant and had a scene and you were always just bumping into all these AD100 designers in the hallways.

59:18And it just felt like there was just a lot more vitality activity there. I think you have good taste and a point of view and a sense of hospitality. And I think people will be happily back there. Do you draw up plans imagining that day, Michael? Do you think of - I cannot comment on that, Dennis. I will tell you that I'm designing a really cool restaurant in Charleston right now. Okay, tell me. Tell me that. Okay. Which is sort of loosely based on beach clubs in the Mediterranean. I think food is an essential part of any home conversation, obviously. And what I think is also really fascinating when you speak to people who have really thriving home markets, it's because people really do like to entertain in their homes.

1:00:11Yeah. And I think part of the problem with the food conversation about restaurants is they've moved too far away in many respects from something that feels like an extension of your home. And I think that there's an opportunity in that space. No, I think there's such a huge opportunity. I mean, I think of the PDC in LA, and I'm curious your thoughts about the LA design scene in general. The PDC used to have all these different restaurants at one point, right? Yes, indeed. Yeah. And that building also is crying out for some help. Escalators are often not working. They elevate. I mean - It's odd that they raised the parking rates there.

1:00:53that seems like a seems like an interesting way to solve a bigger problem yeah well the big big problem is just the way to to put it i wonder i mean and in such an enormous market and i and we're and we're joking but it's not it's not at all funny michael it's uh it's sad and unfortunate and i wonder what the what the answer is there yes i think that's a head scratch i mean but i Again, I think that's a market that it's some of the best shopping in the world for home in La Brea and in Melrose and all these incredible markets. I think there's room for lots of things to happen. And I think the Pacific Design Center has an opportunity to play a really important role in that stewardship.

1:01:41And I think you have incredible people like Becky Birdwell who are working and Niven Breen folks and all these people that are promoting design and the conversation of design and the culture around education and that space. I think it's really fascinating. Well, and what's interesting, I mean, to your point about the vibrant street activity, I'm amazed how good business seems to have been. You talk to Dave Dawson at Urban Electric. He's like, yeah, I just had the best month I ever had, the best year I ever had. It's all just going so great. The fabric companies, they all just sound like they're crushing it.

1:02:16And here we've had tariffs and here we've had everybody's, I mean, we hear people are stretched and we've had this runaway inflation and this affordability issue. I think there's also a lag in the adjustment to some of that because I think house projects are long, mid-time projects. And once you're committed, you're not deviating, right? I think, you know, but I think there is a renewed commitment that has been playing out over the last sort of three quarters of a decade of people really reprioritizing home. And I think we saw also sort of an early shift in geographic moves related to retirement or to, from both millennials, Gen X, and baby boomers all at once, right?

1:03:15I think we just saw a real compression on that. And I think you even see it in the cities. I mean, you know, I think we would be remiss if we didn't touch on Maxime's and the incredible impact that that's had on the convergence of the reemergence of Madison Avenue as a retail street. Obviously, it was happening before Maxime's. But, you know, I live on the Upper East Side and I am just enthralled with the energy and how exciting it all is. And to top it off, now we have Maxime's, which it's challenging us all design-wise, too, because Robin's such a genius. And so, you know, didn't we all go home and rethink a room or think what we would do with trim or, you know, something that we would do differently because of Robin Burley?

1:04:03I think so. No, absolutely. And how funny that the Wall Street Journal would be writing about the Upper East Side being cool again. And right. I mean, yes. Yeah. And the whole private club scene in general is so interesting, which leads me back to the discussion about these different design shows and what's going on there. We were talking about Milan earlier, right? Salone. Right, Salone, which is such a huge show, huge impact. And now it's gotten so huge that people are saying, I can't even go there anymore. I need to go to Copenhagen for three days of design instead, or I need to go to some other show.

1:04:45What's your sense of all of that? Where is all of that moving? Paris in January? Are as many people excited about that as they once were? I don't know. I mean, what do you think? You know, I think that inspiration and trend comes in waves for everyone. So I think Copenhagen and Scandi design is on everybody's lips. I think people who love Paris will always go back to Paris. And I've spent, gosh, now 35 Januaries in Paris. And I think Milan offers something that is an intersection of fashion and home that is really fascinating that you don't see so much elsewhere. And so, you know, it's funny. This faux boiserie company, right?

1:05:34Yeah. that it's blown up everyone's social media for the last two and a half years, right? But did anyone other than Michael Smith really know a lot about it before then? But in a way, that's the Maxime's trend for the Upper East Side is Faux-Bois-Ery for Paris, right? So we're all reignited in French Boiserie and how we can live with more of it. no i i'm with you i mean who doesn't want to buy an entire ruleman library and a whole right i mean exactly exactly i know i do i know i know i do too he's got no problem selling it to us uh and i listen and and that was so interesting to see him come to the dnd building and i think it speaks to the what he perceived to be the caliber of designer that was coming there and i think they still are coming there do all the elevators work the way they should no is you know but the building was always i mean let's face it if you live in new york you live with compromise and yeah i was looking at these terrace doors i have and and thinking you know i could replace them but why why would i want to get rid of a 75 year old terrace door if i can just rebuild it yeah and that's i think the same thing i would say about the dnd and all of its flaws okay okay well so i mean you You can't tell me what's going to happen with the D &D building or the PDC or Houston.

1:07:01I mean, all of them. I don't have any news, but I will say that the Dakota is exciting. We're in the middle of refresh and redesign of the public spaces, and we're launching a really interesting sort of marketplace for stalls and kiosks around pop-ups for design and brands, which I think will be really interesting. And do you imagine Charleston being a place where we see more consumers coming and brands getting more comfortable with that? I don't get the sense that since you and I last spoke, many of these brands have gotten all that more comfortable with servicing the consumer. Maybe you have a different take.

1:07:47I don't think Brian Dicker at Holland & Sherry is too interested in serving the consumer. You tell me. I don't know. I think that's probably right. But I think that I think he's also on the second floor of a building that is not he's not on the ground floor. Right. And so I think that I think that's your choice. But I also think that I think you see more and more home companies having retail to the trade. You know, the industry has always hoped that somehow magically it would reach the wealthy end consumer with its brand and its name so that that that wealthy end consumer would say to their designer, oh, I want to have Baker furniture.

1:08:30Right. That was always the hope, whether it was through advertising and architectural digest or whatever, whatever they were doing to try and reach that person. but they didn't want to actually be servicing that person directly. And I'm wondering how we get there. I think it may be a bridge of having, like design centers have designers on call or they have referral networks to other designers. I think you see designers as celebrities today, which is, you know, the celebrity of designer is an interesting topic that you should tackle.

1:09:10Definitely. Definitely. But I think, I mean, just look at Pimlico Road or look at Rujacov or look at, there are lots of showrooms that are open to the public that are part of this ecosystem. So I wouldn't say that people aren't lining up to do it because the streets are filling every day with more design stores and design showrooms. Yeah. And brands that were historically not on the street. I do think you always are going to have a problem of education and of what it takes to service an untrained customer. And so that there will always be value for a designer. Well, exactly. And that's always been the biggest challenge.

1:09:48And that is the role that designers have played and hopefully will continue to play. I know I need to let you go and get into a meeting. So, Michael, thank you so much. Such a pleasure.

1:10:03And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred? Ashley Furniture caught my eye, which doesn't often happen on the Thursday show because we mostly focus on the high end. But I was struck that the really it's an enormous furniture company. We should be talking about that more, really struck a deal with a company called Perplexity, which is an AI search engine. And the reason they did it is because there you know, this this happened a lot on Black Friday. We should be talking about that, too.

1:10:31But AI is increasingly getting into the way people search for products and buy them. So instead of going to Google, you go to your chatbot of choice. You say, I want a present for my fellow podcast host, make it classy, you know, and the chat bot gives you a product recommendation that you can click to buy. And, you know, more and more retailers are making partnerships with these chat bots. Ashley was certainly the first solely home furniture-focused brand to make one of these deals, but they will certainly not be the last. I think by this time next year, Warren Schulberg said this, I say this, more or less every big retailer will have these deals and people will be doing a lot more AI-powered shopping.

1:11:05So that'll be certainly a story to unpack in the new year. Uh, Dennis, did you do any AI powered shopping this year? I actually am pretty impressed with AI's ability to point me in the direction of many things that I want, Fred. And, uh, and I regret to say that much of the Black Friday shopping was in fact for myself. Uh, I feel terrible to admit that, but there you go. You're not, I don't think you're alone in that. What caught your eye this week, Dennis? Uh, you know, it's funny. A couple of Dan Rosen related items caught my eye this week. So first, Dan Rosen was doing a house tour of Kendall Jenner's property, which I'm sure many have seen by now.

1:11:41And he starts off saying, well, unfortunately, I actually really like this. Yeah, it's so good. He's like, bad news, it's good. Couldn't challenge it. And of course, part of the reason he couldn't is because, as many people know, Heidi Callier did the design. And of course, it looks amazing. And so Dan, who was all ready to rip it apart, just couldn't because it was it was actually quite pleasant. The other fun Dan Rosen bit that I noticed was a friend of the show. Michael Diaz Griffith made an appearance on Dan Rosen's Middlebrow podcast. It's a good podcast. Fun conversation was had with Michael about antiques and young people and where this is all going.

1:12:25And it was actually quite a fun and colorful conversation. So fun to see the DLN head and also noted young antiques supporter and encourager on the show. Yeah, cool. I love Middlebrow. It's a really fun show. It touches on a lot of different things. and the Kendall Jenner thing was, honestly, I've heard through the grapevine that she's really into design. She has really good taste. It's not an act. It's always unfortunate when those people are sincerely great. But congratulations to Heidi. The fame couldn't be happening to a nicer person and a better designer. So kudos all around. No, no, no. Absolutely.

1:13:06And someone who came to fame on social media, but not because of vertical videos. So another interesting point there for that conversation. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.