The Thursday Show: Who gets to call themselves a designer? Plus: Why Elizabeth Ralls bought Atlanta Homes & Lifestyles

25:08You position yourself as an expert in the field. I'm sure a lot of your fans get a lot out of it because it's a really, you know, they do a great job really breaking things down into digestible takeaways. So I don't know. I'm just a fan of stuff like this. I hope more designers do it. And, you know, as we're about to talk about, there's even other platforms that are, you know, gaining popularity that are sort of masterclass adjacent. Well, exactly. It's fascinating to see Bunny Williams coming forward with a Create Academy series that, by the way, is spectacularly beautiful. If you've ever longed to go inside Bunny Williams' home in Connecticut, which is spectacular, her apartment in New York, come into the office, let us show you the process.

25:48It's really spectacular what Bunny and Elizabeth as well shared. And besides the incredible learnings, there's just the voyeuristic thrill of it all, of getting to see all of Bunny's homes and spaces and all that she's done with them. So, I mean, to your point, it's an incredible thing for them to be able to share with people who are so interested and so engaged and will be delighted to watch and to learn. I think what all three of these like individual moves kind of say to me is that just the design media landscape is changing. That's not really a chakra. But I do think that there's like the kind of like, you know, all the big magazines are having their individual struggles.

26:31You know, there were recently layoffs at Hearst. You know, it's a difficult time to be in sort of national corporate design media. But if you want to just do your own thing, there's so many more tools and opportunities to do it. I think a lot of new media also rewards like a very, very deep dive. You know, it's less about here's one article where Bunny Williams recommends like what kind of, you know, planter to buy. And it's like you spend three hours with Bunny Williams for the super fans who really want to invest in that. You know, here's a letter directly from Kelly Wurstler and it could be long, you know.

27:03So I think that like as sort of what you might call traditional media kind of loses power and influence, designers themselves have a lot more tools at their disposal to make their own media to do what they want to do and connect directly with fans. And, you know, as someone who is a fan and indeed a participant in what you might call traditional media, I have mixed feelings about it. But I do think it's cool to see all these kinds of experiments and new ventures and new things pop up. I agree. And I think it just, as you say, it speaks to the power that these designers have to just grab a microphone and just say, hey, I want to talk to you over here in this other space.

27:42and share something meaningful. And it's fascinating to me, Bunny Williams, after all these years, is still sort of on the cutting edge of new media. Right, exactly, how cool. Right, I mean, and so I love that aspect of it as well. And I know that people will just get so much out of all of these things that we've just discussed. So now we're gonna move on to the big hot topic of the show, Fred, the designer versus decorator debate. So this week for Business of Home, Fred, you waded into some dangerous waters with a look at why people call themselves designers and others call themselves decorators.

28:25What can you tell us? Put on your hazmat suit, Dennis. This one's toxic. I think I was just sort of – I mean, I was partially inspired actually by a panel that you had at High Point where I think it was called Fearless Female Founders or Fierce – what was it called again? Yeah, exactly. Fierce Female Founders, I believe so. We were going for a lot of alliteration in that one. Exactly. And the topic of designer versus decorator came up and it kind of got me thinking. It's just so interesting how this industry has evolved so much over the past 25 years. Interior design is such a bigger part of the average American's consciousness.

28:58But there is still this weird underlying tension in the industry around what is it actually called? And so I thought it might be fun and potentially risky to dive into that conversation. of, I guess I'm curious, like before we really get into it, you know, you've, you've been in the industry a little bit longer than I have, and you grew up in maybe a little bit more of a design milieu than I did. What did, what did you call it when you were kind of coming into the industry? Was it, was it decorator? Was it designer? What's your, what's your history with that? The difference between those two terms?

29:26I think decorator was very much the, the Upper East Side term that I grew up with. You, you had a decorator, they were coming and working on your apartment and the interior designer label in my mind came much later. And, uh, and, and I don't, I don't really know when that, that really shifted in a meaningful way. I know we, we should talk about the design school and what that meant, but, but definitely growing up, all of my parents' friends had decorators. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think that is a big component here is that, you know, historically in the sort of early days of the profession, it was a decorator.

30:09You know, Elsie DeWolf was a decorator. Billy Baldwin called himself a decorator. And even Mario Boada called himself a decorator. That was kind of just the term of art for, you know, what people do in this world. And it's interesting because, you know, I think generally speaking, people agree that it kind of started to change around the 80s and 90s. It's very hard to like there was no royal proclamation that said now we call them designers. But people say kind of in the 80s and 90s is when it started to change. But it's interesting. If you look at the history, NYCID, you know, the New York School of Interior Design, actually changed its name in 1951 from the New York School of Interior Decoration to New York School of Interior Design.

30:43And at the time, they said it was sort of about the dignity and professionalism of what they were doing. And so there has been this, you know, kind of inclination to move away from decorator towards design, even as early as the 50s. I was sort of surprised by that. But I do think that the cultural change came much later. I get the sense that people are pretty worked up about this. So I wonder if there was a real meaningful groundswell back then that caused them to make the change. What people say kind of anecdotally is that the shift from decorator to designer was sort of meant to convey, hey, this is a real profession.

31:19You know, people are going to school for this. They're getting degrees. They're getting certifications in some case. This isn't just about, you know, making one aesthetic choice and, you know, spending the client's money. It's this, you know, elevated profession. And, you know, we need to call this design because that has this kind of modern cosmopolitan ring to it in a way that maybe Decorator, you know, didn't at the time. But, you know, what the cultural meaning of words is very slippery. You know what I mean? I mean, I think most people would agree that interior design should be taken seriously, or at least most people listening to this podcast would agree with that.

31:50But, you know, some people feel that it went sort of too far in the other direction and it became, you know, this – it almost became less about professionalizing the industry and more about putting people down for being, quote, unquote, just a decorator. And I think that's that kind of – that's the pressure point that makes it sort of a heated debate, you know, sometimes even still. Well, that's what I'm so curious about. And I did a post on social media and a lot of people responded. And it was really interesting to hear from an array of designers. Summer Thornton weighed in and said, if decorator is good enough for Dorothy, meaning Dorothy Draper, it's good enough for me.

32:29And Ashley Whitaker said, designers have degrees and decorators don't. She says, I was so proud to be a decorator. I went to the school of hard knocks, she said. But interestingly, Colette Vanden Tiller wrote to me something that stuck with me that she's leaned more towards decorator now because this new association with free interior design services or reality show reveals has sort of made her want to shy away from interior designer and lean back into decorator. So I don't know. A lot of people felt very strongly. I got a degree. I took that wretched test. I want to be called an interior designer and don't call me a decorator.

33:14And I thought it was interesting in the conversation with Andre Malone just recently when he was going to leave Robert A.M. Stern's office and go work for Mark Hampton. And Robert A.M. Stern said, you're going to go work for a decorator? You're going to leave me and my prestige and go work for someone who focuses on throw pillows? So, I mean, it's interesting how some people get very worked up about it. most of the designers said to me, the clients don't care anyway. So call me whatever you want, pay my bill, and you can call me whatever you want was was a big takeaway. I mean, I think the one thing that everyone on either side, or maybe there's not just two sides, but everyone on all sides of this debate can agree that clients generally don't care.

33:57This is a little bit more of like an industry debate. But, you know, it is interesting how, you know, there is no law that says you have to have a degree to call yourself an interior designer. And I think that as, you know, the term of, you know, just the generally accepted term in the public has become interior designer, that creates a natural incentive for people to call themselves interior designers because they want clients who are looking for someone for help with their home to find them. And so, you know, there was one source in the story who said, you know, I may be a little more comfortable with decorator.

34:28I think there's I think it's I'm proud to be a decorator. But for marketing purposes, I call myself an interior designer simply because people can find me on Google. They're Googling interior designer in my neighborhood. So I think, you know, it just, there's so many different ways to approach this. You know, I, I, uh, I do think it's cool though, that people are trying to reclaim decorator because I think there was always something maybe a little bit snobby about being, oh, you're just a decorator. I mean, being able to create a mood and atmosphere, even if you're not tearing down walls, being able to create a beautiful home, you know, even if you're not getting into the plumbing is an incredibly valuable skill.

35:02And I sort of feel like denigrating that kind of work has always had a kind of lightly sexist gendered connotation. It's a little bit there's something a little bit kind of nasty about, you know, the just a decorator phenomenon. So I think people should rightly be proud of their education and their certifications. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with celebrating that. But I think, you know, there's room enough for everybody in the industry with every level of education to be celebrated for the great work that they do. So I guess cooling down the temperature of the debate, I guess. is what I'm advocating for here in a rather roundabout fashion.

35:35No, no, I agree. And I have nothing but respect for everyone who goes on to get a design degree and who, as I say, gets through that exam. And I think that people are definitely heated about it. And I agree with you. Let's bring down the temperature a little bit. And I don't want this to be one of the things that gets in the way of more people hiring interior designers, which is a topic we talk about often. So I want there to be enormous respect for this industry and what people do regardless of what they want to call themselves. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including the industry's latest new hires and advice on affordable investments in your firm.

36:19We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

36:29We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Anthem Plus Smart Showering, only from Kohler. With Anthem Plus, you can design a showering escape that commands up to 12 water outlets, supports custom lighting environments to match any mood, and allows for three levels of soothing steam set to music from personal playlists. Every moment asks the user to imagine, when you take a shower, where does your shower take you? explore anthem plus smart showering at kohler.com slash showers and now back to the show

37:13and we're back we mentioned last week on the show that atlanta homes and lifestyles has a new owner here to tell us about it is elizabeth rawls the publication's publisher elizabeth thank you so much for joining us. Dennis, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be a part of your show today. Well, I'm delighted to have you. And I'm eager to learn more about what led up to this acquisition and you forming an entity to acquire the publication. It sounds like this has been in the works for some time. Tell me about it. Yes, absolutely, Dennis. So I have spent the better part of my career with Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles, two different stints over the course of 13 years.

37:53and first as the managing editor in 2006 and then took some time off to raise my family and came back as the magazine's editor-in-chief in 2013. I was named the publisher in 2020 and yeah as you just said I am the new owner of Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles Effective this month. So certainly have a lot of sweat equity in the business and I had to tell my our owner Adam Jopko of Esteem Media that I was pregnant with baby number four and that I was not quite sure of what my path was going to be with the magazine moving forward and how I was going to reconcile spending so much time in my role at the magazine and also welcoming a new addition.

38:44And Adam at that time, he said, you know, don't make any decisions. Don't do anything rash, Elizabeth. Yeah, I already had no. So let's talk. And he said, listen, I'm not I want you to do what's best for for you and your family. But I did want to let you know that, you know, looking down the road, I always had you in mind as a successor for the magazine. You know, you've done so much for me and the business. You know, you're so closely aligned with Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles. It wouldn't be the brand without you. you know, there's certainly a large degree of flattery involved, but also, Dennis - Really buttering you up, but also - But also, you know, just a path that I had never considered.

39:31So at the time when you were having this conversation with Adam, what was running through your head and what were the options that you were considering at the time? You know, since COVID, right, we've all that work-life balance, you know, has come into play. And I think that we were able to achieve a lot more of that work-life balance. And also, Dennis, I was able to really bring in some more personnel, so to speak, with that decision to help me with moving forward with this transaction. And those, of course, were things that were not running through my head during that conversation. But those were things that we were able to implement after that conversation.

40:11And, of course, with a lot of thought put into that going, okay, what are the things that I need to really put the wheels in motion and set myself up for success to be able to take over this magazine and still be able to be with my family and have that work-life balance that took COVID kind of affording me. Tell us a little bit of the history of the magazine for those that might not be overly familiar and when it got started and what was the thinking behind it. And then let's talk about the evolution and how involved you are in the community there. So the magazine was founded in 1983. And so we're over 40 years old.

40:51And certainly the magazine has evolved, you know, several times since the 80s. But, you know, I think the appeal of the brand as, you know, through at least the last decade has changed a lot. And a lot of that has to do with what's happening in the design media world at large. You know, I feel fortunate to have started my career at what was probably the glory days, the heyday. Who knew? Yes, I knew that those were the glory days. And thankfully, that has carried my passion forward because I'll never forget, you know, starting out with Southern Living at one of the biggest publishing houses in the South.

41:30You know, we really are continuing that mission of inspiring, of educating, of really showcasing, you know, full bleed, paper wells, where you can really step into the page. and so that of course the print publication is still very much our bread and butter and we are really supported by the fact that we produce these live events here and so currently we are in the throes of our home for the holidays designer show house where we've been fortunate enough to see some sold out crowds for over half of the dates that were open. And then in March, we produced a tour of kitchens. And then in April and May, we have another franchise that's more spring focused.

42:19That's the Southeastern Designer Show House. And so those live events really allow us to engage with our audience in a much more direct manner. And so I think that has really allowed us, those events have afforded us the opportunity to be so ingrained in the community and to really thrive and prosper. And not just in our community, Dennis, I think, you know, throughout the Southeastern design community. I want to talk a little bit about the culture and how people live and entertain in Atlanta. We've spoken in the past about how focused so much of the design industry is on Atlanta, what an important market it is for so many companies.

43:10And part of that is because design is so celebrated in the South and in Atlanta specifically, the way people live and entertain and like to have people over and show off their homes in a way. Yes? Yes, absolutely. So, you know, Dennis, having grown up in the Midwest and lived in the Northeast and now having been in the Southeast since 2006, I can say, yes, without a doubt, Southerners love their homes, right? I mean, that is why there has always been these publications in the South, right? Whether it's Southern Living or Veranda, you know, there has always been this sort of idolization, I should be, of home.

43:57And I think certainly our climate has a lot to do with that, We are able to entertain nine months a year outside. We're able to tend to our gardens during that time and really entertain with the exception of a few colder months in the winter. I'm curious, Elizabeth, you mentioned earlier in the conversation having made this transition from the editorial side to becoming the publisher. And I'm curious how you see things having been on both sides of the publication in that way, how you look at what you want to do with the publication and how it informs some of your long -term vision for what you think is possible.

44:42Sure, absolutely. I mean, I know when I made the transition from editor-in-chief to publisher, I remember getting, you know, a lot of questions of, is that an easy transition? You know, how did that come about? And, you know, do you have that business acumen, you know, to be able to make that transition? And I will say, having grown up, so to speak, with this brand and having spent the better part of my career building this brand and coming from the ground up, there's a lot to be learned from that on-the-job experience. And I think coming into my role, there was actually a benefit in not knowing what you didn't know.

45:28Because you had the ability to question, to say, why are we still using this service that we've used for the last 10 years? And what is it really providing our salespeople? Or we started Shopify, we started a back issue platform. Why are we sending these one off? Why haven't we automated this process? You know, there was certainly just a degree of modernizing those processes when I stepped into the publisher role in 2020. And I feel very much stepping into the role of an owner in 2024 that I'm kind of going back to those days of 2020, looking at a lot of these providers and contracts that we have.

46:10Geez, who's been the publisher of this magazine all these years? Well, yeah. Is that how you're walking in? Who's been making these decisions? Yeah. And even more so on the back end, I should say, you know, things like fulfillment and distribution, you know, going what this has even changed so much since COVID. What you know, how can we change this or what steps are we going to take moving forward to make this so much easier on the consumer? Why do they have to wait eight to 10 weeks? Right. To get the magazine. What can we do once they subscribe? Right. Exactly. Why are we still getting paper checks?

46:49Which is also great, right? Because we've got an audience who still trusts us with those. I know that you're attracting this younger audience, this broader audience than ever before. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about what that kind of audience wants and is looking for from a publication. Yeah, sure. I mean, it's a challenge, right? We've had this demographic that has been so good to us for the last 20 years, I should say, and is still so actively involved, right? But now we're looking to the next generation. And in 2025, that means you can ask AI to design your dream house. I think where Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles plays into that is, you know, having that authoritative role given the amount of time we've been in the market is people are looking to us to source.

47:49The consumer is. So they are saying, you know, not just that age old question, where is that? How can I find that paint color or where can I get the fabric on those draperies? but it's very much where can I find the blacksmith who can help me execute that custom iron railing that I saw in that sweeping staircase in your last issue? Who was the vendor who did that beautiful hand hammered mirror on the backsplash in the bar that I saw at your show house? You know, these are very much specific questions and specific design sources, especially from a custom standpoint that our audience is looking to the magazine for.

48:31You referenced AI and the incredible abilities that we're already seeing, both visually and from a data search perspective. And I'm curious if people are pitching you on AI ideas to help you find greater efficiencies, or if you've even fooled around with it yourself a little bit to see how it might be helpful. You know, we were writing some descriptions of our holiday show house for our website. And so I gave AI the opportunity, I submitted my copy and gave them the opportunity to make it more clever or funny. I think there are a couple adjectives you could plug in. And it wrote back and said it looked pretty good.

49:14It did look a lot of changes. So I was not super impressed with that. But no, I will say I've asked, I've talked to some designers and architects who have used AI to help them take notes during client conversations, which I think is super smart because how much have we missed, right? By handwriting or even typing up notes. You know, I listened to an AI-generated podcast, Dennis, which you might find. No, I know. I'm all too familiar with the Google LM. And for a local publication, had essentially condensed what was a program for a local tour of homes and used all the copy about the tour of homes that was taking place here in Atlanta and generated a podcast about it.

50:07And wow, the cadence and everything was pretty fascinating and frightening all at once. Um, so no, again, I mean, we going back to that old friend and going back to the fact that we, you know, are sort of really all about the sources and the people, um, AI is not a focus as of right now. Tell me about show houses and what you're sort of bringing to life and, and how it is servicing people in the community. So of course, um, you know, the mission of the print publication is to inspire and to educate. And certainly we do that through the content. But I think one way that the magazine has evolved is through these events, such as our show houses, such as our tour of kitchens, where we are truly bringing the pages to life and bringing our audience out into the community to meet the designers who are responsible, the cabinet makers who are responsible, and even the fabricators and the stone providers, right?

51:12And so through these houses, they really become these pop-up showrooms, these pop-up shops, sort of networking opportunities and lead generations for our clients. And for, again, it goes back to the sourcing of our consumers who are really looking for people to hire in their own homes. We often talk about the perceived advantage or strength that these hyper-focused regional publications have. And I think part of it is just what you were describing. You know the people that are involved in your showhouses, but your advertisers, you just have a different level of closeness in the relationship. And that, I think, is one of the advantages that regional publications have.

52:04Do you see it that way? Yes, absolutely, Dennis. So I think we're held accountable, right? Just as our clients are. We are seeing our clients in the grocery store. We're seeing them in our neighborhood. They live in our neighborhoods. The publication has become really a connection point between the luxury consumer and between the luxury design market. And of course, that doesn't happen overnight. That's something that we've established through the years. We've got two people on our sales team who have been with the magazine for over 34 years, which is also unique. I'm curious a little bit, and I'd love to hear your perspective about the aesthetic evolution, if you will, of design in Atlanta.

52:50I was thinking about this. I was at the R. Hughes holiday party here in New York, and it was so exciting that they have a a showroom at last in New York, but I was thinking back to when I first visited their showroom in Atlanta, not only how impressive it was and how hip, cool, contemporary, I think at the time we called it the coolest showroom in America, but it was surprising on some levels to see a space with all of those different very contemporary furniture and lighting brands in a market where we might not of thought, there was a great deal of demand for that. They've obviously been incredibly successful, Ryan and Stephen, but I remember the impact that that showroom made.

53:39And I wonder if you can talk to me a little bit about that and the evolution of the aesthetic. Yes. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. So yeah, certainly when Ryan and Stephen opened R Hughes in Atlanta, when they debuted that showroom and ADAC, it was almost like a mic drop. They were pioneering this much, I shouldn't say new aesthetic, but Atlanta is a big transplant market. We're home to a ton of Fortune 500 companies. There are people moving in from both coasts. They're bringing their aesthetics with them. And they are not as ingrained in this traditional market that, you know, where we started in the 80s and still certainly have a strong, strong inkling towards, you know, Atlanta is changing.

54:31And I think the brands that Ryan and Steven brought to RQs have really helped a new generation of designers as well, really talk to and speak to the aesthetic that is being cultivated by a younger generation, by transplants, by people who are moving to Atlanta and they're not tied down to maybe the tradition of earlier generations that were either maybe inheriting homes from their parents or inheriting aesthetics or even, we certainly see cases of architects, designers, and builders who work with the parents and then they work with their chill, you know, that sort of handed down aesthetic. Atlanta has grown so tremendously just in the past few years, but certainly over the last 10.

55:21And I'm wondering the real estate scene right now in Atlanta and in your whole area that you cover. And I'm curious related to that, if people are feeling more optimistic about the coming year, we've talked so much about the housing market struggling a bit and existing home sales suffering because people have low interest rates and not putting their homes on the markets. And for the people that want to buy, interest rates have been higher than they would like. Is all of that playing out? And what are you sensing is happening right now? Yes, we certainly feel as small business owners, we do feel like we are privy to the nuances of the market.

56:06And of course, every election cycle, there's always some trepidation going into the election. And then, you know, ultimately the finality I think is everyone's realizes once again, that it really doesn't change everything all that much. But certainly I do feel like in the real estate sector, which we do have a lot of clients in that area, is there's a lot of enthusiasm for 2025. And I think there's cautious optimism, Dennis, is what we're hearing. Yeah. No, no, that certainly makes sense. As I think you and I have talked in the past, the survive to 25 and thrive has very much been the mantra. Yes, absolutely.

56:52I'm putting that on my wall. It looks like we're finally here. So I'm hoping 25 is the thrive time for everyone. With that in mind, and I know you just acquired this publication, but are you thinking longer term, hey, let me get this under my belt and then look to some other markets and see where your knowledge and your strengths could help in some other regions with strong regional publications? Sure, absolutely. I mean, it's funny, Dennis. I heard when we announced the news, I heard from some designers in other markets going, you know, hey, come, you know, come to Charleston, come to Dallas, come here and help us with our publication.

57:39We could use some help. You know, our strength certainly lies in being hyperlocal. And so with that, I kind of struggle about how we would be able to make inroads in other markets without those, you know, stay in and tried and true relationships. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, there certainly seem to be other opportunities for you. So, I mean, again, I know that you need to catch your breath and figure out everything you're doing in Atlanta, but it does seem that the regional model has room to grow, certainly. It was very clear, Elizabeth, from so many of the people that I spoke to that there was a tremendous sense of relief in a way that you were acquiring the publication and that you were going to be at the helm and leading it into the future.

58:27You're obviously very well thought of in your market and people feel very passionately about the magazine and everything that you've done. So I hope that that feels good for you. Yes, absolutely. I had an architect friend reach out and say when I relayed the news and he said, everything is as it should be. And I just kind of got tickled about that comment because there was a lot, a lot of people are happy to see this come local. It makes a lot of sense, right? Bring this back home, keep it under the people who have been sort of the guardians of the title for a long time. And really, I just am so honored and it's very rewarding.

59:07Well, I'm excited for you and I'm looking forward to checking back in with you and seeing how it's all going and what you're going to be up to next. As I said, it's such an important market. So a lot of people have their focus on Atlanta. So lots of opportunity for you. Thank you so much for making the time to talk with me. Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Dennis. I appreciate it.

59:36And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred? Mocha Moose caught my eye. Pantone shows its color of the year, and the color of the year is Mocha Moose, sort of a brownish brown. You know, colors of the year are marketing exercises, basically, and they're a little bit silly, and sometimes they're clickbait. Every year, I try and keep track of who's the first person to send me the Pantone color of the year pitch, And I will not reveal the publicist's name who sent me one, but it was very quick after it was announced.

1:00:09There was someone who jumped in with a pitch about all the furniture that they had in their client roster that met the Mocha Moose moment. I just think it's kind of interesting because I think we actually talked about this last year is that so many designers predicted that brown would be the color of the year. You know, everyone talks about sad beige, you know. I do think it's just kind of like this color of the year choice from Pantone probably didn't move the conversation forward. but it did reflect the reality that kind of against all odds, brown is the color of the moment. So it's interesting just to see them kind of put a stamp on it.

1:00:43And, you know, I'm not a huge fan of the name Mocha Moose. It mostly makes me hungry, but I don't think there's any denying that they've captured what a lot of people are putting in their homes. Do you have any Mocha Moose in your house, Dennis? Well, was it El Decor that wrote about brown being the color of wealth and really leaned into it? And I believe that when we had Tori Malat on the show, She was quite passionate about Brown herself, and I believe Brown or bust was a memorable moment from that conversation. So a lot of Brown fans out there, to be sure. Well, what caught your eye this week, Dennis?

1:01:15What caught my eye was last night I was at the Holly Hunt showroom, the big one on 3rd Avenue, and there is a brand new floor set there with a lot of incredible Vladimir Kagan pieces and an array of cool lighting. And it reminded me of the fact that there are so few companies that you can really think of their creative directors. So Holly Hunt's creative director, a woman who's been there for 20 plus years, Joanna Kornack, is really a spectacular creative director. And it's worth going to see every new floor set that she does just because it's so dramatic. I'm actually going to go back because I didn't get to all the floors because of the crowded event last night for Holly's book.

1:02:07But it reminded me that there are still these powerful creative directors in the industry that it's just fascinating to see what they do and to know who they are and see the impact that they have. And Joanna worked under Holly for so many years and I think had been really leading the way for years before, even before Holly stepped away from the business and now gets to really be on her own. She just redid Miami. She just redid New York. And it's always worth seeing what she's done. Yeah, it's always been kind of strange that our industry doesn't have as many kind of like visible creative directors as you might have in fashion or other industries.

1:02:47But they exist. And, you know, we need to focus more attention on them. So I'm glad you called her out. No, no, I agree. And as I say, it's definitely worth a trip. So designers, go and check it out. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Fraser McCullough. I'm Dennis Scully.

1:03:21Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.