The Thursday Show: Why designers are turning to Etsy. Plus: The AI startup making waves in the furniture industry

25:37Yeah, I mean, the only other issue, and a designer out of Chicago, Jenny Brown, was talking to me about how her client wanted her to go on Etsy and buy a bunch of pillows towards the end of the project where perhaps they were growing tired of continuing to spend money on this project. And please, can you find a way to save some money for us on Etsy? Which I thought was really interesting, in part because it was a reminder, as you and I have talked about, that this platform is out there to everyone and that it's not a designer exclusive resource. And perhaps that has some issues and challenges.

26:15But I was struck by how many designers wrote to me and told me they're getting pillows and fabric and that that's a huge reason that they're coming to Etsy. So it doesn't sound like it's holding people back from that perspective. Yeah, at least it wasn't go to Amazon Hall and get a bunch of pillows. get a bunch of 48 cent pillows. I mean, I do, to your point, I do think that like it, the pricing thing is real. And I do think that like, you know, designers rightfully turn to custom because they can make it exactly what the client wants, but it also gives them like pricing protection. You know, they're, they're the only ones who are, you know, have this product and they can sort of control the pricing a little more cleanly than you can with a retail or wholesale goods.

26:55And when you go to Etsy and all the pricing is fairly public, you know, that there's, I guess, a risk in that, or maybe there's just a risk in that, you know, clients are on there all day and night going like, well, you could get it$40 less on Etsy or$140 less on Etsy. But I do think that's a little bit of like a secondary risk and probably at the end of the day, not a big deal. And it's not a reason not to go to the platform to, you know, get some cool pillows at the end of the project. Definitely don't go to Amazon Hall. That's my takeaway from this. Exactly. I'm in full support of that. Don't go to Amazon Hall.

27:26And honestly, to me, this is, this is the internet delivering on its promise of the early days of it was going to make the whole world accessible to you. And it sounds like it is. So I'm all for it. Let's move on and talk about trades on TikTok, Fred. In a feature for Dwell this week, Kelly Faircloth wrote about the sudden stardom trades people are experiencing on the app as they offer an up close look at tasks like home inspections, plumbing visits, and even roof repair. Dennis, do you follow any, I guess, should we even say TikTok? Is it legal to follow TikTok right now? I don't know. Should I say that I'm on TikTok?

28:03Because I don't know. It seems like it's an issue that's fraught these days, Fred. Yeah, I mean, to be clear, I don't know what's going on with TikTok. It was supposed to be outlawed. I guess it's not. For the time being, tradespeople are on it and using it and finding great success. But this is interesting, you know, because I don't think this is anything new. There's all kinds of interesting people with small businesses on TikTok. But it's just fun to see these people who do like roof repair or cleaning out gutters and are making like cute content around it and having like, you know, who would have thought that someone who does home inspections would have hundreds of thousands of followers on a social media platform.

28:39But, you know, the guy who does it is pretty funny. I agree. And the Plumber's Plunger, who's got like 268 ,000 followers, is showing you all of these fun plumbing videos, which I did actually watch a bunch of. So I'll have to confess that, of course, I was on TikTok watching a bunch of plumbing videos, which I think it's so smart because what a great way to show your expertise is just show a bunch of videos showing how easily you correct all of these sort of household problems. And who doesn't want to call this expert and say, yeah, I've seen a bunch of your videos. You obviously know what you're doing.

29:15Come on over and fix my water closet. Exactly. Very nicely saved there. You saved the dignity of the podcast there. Um, yeah, I mean, I think it just makes it in some ways is the simplest story in the world because it's like a lot of people are looking at TikTok and Instagram reels, of course, like why not put yourself there? And, you know, I think it's like, even if TikTok goes away, you know, this idea of social media being oriented around vertical video, I think is at least here to stay for at least a few more years. So I think everyone who's taking advantage of that is smart. Now, I do think there's like a ceiling on this to some degree, because like a lot of platforms, it really rewards big stars.

29:55It's kind of like a winner take all environment. You're like, yes, you know, the clever, funny plumber in Milwaukee is going to have like a million followers. But, you know, it's not like every plumber everywhere in America can benefit from the same kind of marketing because it's about being good at content and being good at plumbing, which is, you know, a Venn diagram with not a ton of people in it necessarily. So I think this is fun. I don't think it's necessarily a model for literally everyone on the platform. And as Kelly's piece points out, like when you put yourself on TikTok, you put yourself out there.

30:25So, you know, if you make like, quote unquote, a mistake, people are going to pile on and, you know, you turn into sort of like a micro celebrity. And so, you know, that can impact your business, I guess, if there's some kind of roof repair scandal that pops up. But, you know, it's the risk of being in the public eye that, you know, tradespeople are not necessarily usually used to. No, I definitely got the sense that the thatched roof guys liked being in the public eye. They look like they were enjoying the attention. But, you know, this also made me think, Fred, back when we had the conversation about private equity companies showing up and buying your local plumbing supply place and buying some of these trade companies.

31:02And I thought, to your point, what a wonderful way to stand out and have this huge following. And it's another way to attract attention. And maybe it's a way that somebody who might be in a relatively small location can actually scale a business more quickly because they've got this huge following and this huge potential audience. So I don't know. I think it's interesting. It is a double edged sword. And again, we don't know what's happening with TikTok. Maybe it's going away. Although I feel like that conversation has really died down. So maybe now that the administration has seen that it's supporting small business in such a big way, they're going to leave it alone.

31:41But it is interesting to see how quickly this might be a tool to scale. The problem is just simply that like it's a trades person and they have a limited bandwidth. You know, it was like one of the guys was talking about like I do home inspections. I can only do so many in a day. I have thousands of requests and like I'm booked out until November 2027. Like, I mean, maybe he could hire more people. That's what I'm saying. He hires a team. He's got this huge demand. What do you do with demand? You turn that into a to a big business. So I think I think those are good problems to have. What? You got too many appointments.

32:17I see a business waiting to grow. I guess my question for you, Dennis, is does this also apply to interior designers? We've talked a lot about how over the past few years, social media has pivoted very much to vertical video. Designers should take note of that. And I'll say anecdotally, I have seen a lot more designers kind of doing things in my social feeds recently. They're not doing dance trends. They're usually maybe styling a shelf or kind of showing off their skills. I don't know. I do think like, I certainly think designers are getting the memo about vertical video though. I see it more and more every day.

32:48No, I agree. And I think that's happening for a reason. And I'm hard pressed to think of the many downsides of doing this. So I think any way that you are out there demonstrating your skills, perhaps some of your personality as well, I just think there's a lot of different reasons why people are coming to designers. And I certainly, you and I both have spoken with a lot of designers that a lot of their clients just like them. And so the combination of, hey, you seem really fun and I like your work, that just seems like a pretty strong combination. And if you've seen, even if it's just little snippets of what they can do and what they're all about, I just think that's better than going in cold.

33:37So I really don't see the downside. Well, I don't think there's a downside. And, you know, of course, Stephanie Sabi was on the podcast recently talking about how like she got more clients because of this like Barbie dollhouse that she made, which I think is really, really more about her personality than her. No offense to the dollhouse. But, you know, she talks a lot about how people hire you for your personality. And if you demonstrate on that on social media, then you'll get clients because of it. But I do think this isn't exactly a downside, but with a sort of new set of incentives in social media, like different people rise to the top.

34:07I mean, I think it's one thing to have a great personality. It's another thing to demonstrate that personality on social media. That's a skill, really. And I think the people who are good at that will succeed, whereas there's going to be a lot of designers who maybe could have crafted the perfect image on Instagram and are really wonderful designers, but maybe aren't as good at getting in front of the camera. And so, I don't know. Every era has its own variables to consider, but I think we're moving into one where being good on camera and on video is more important than ever. I agree. And it makes me think back to a conversation we had a while back with Kate Verner, where she talked about some of the best product designers had almost no following on social media because they were just so busy, like actually doing what they were doing.

34:52And it turned out that they weren't big personalities, but they were actually really great product designers. So let's not forget to reward the people that are just good at what they do as well. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including advice from Sean Lowe on creating a more profitable design firm and a roundup of the biggest hires in the industry. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

35:23We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Jaypore Living. Jaipur Living's curated collection of geometric rugs brings the art of angles and timeless craftsmanship into the home. Inspired by the patterns of faraway places, from Moroccan tiles to Bauhaus lines, these artisan-made rugs tell a story of style, movement, and a life well-traveled. Let a handcrafted geometric rug transform your space. Explore the collection at jaipurliving.com or follow at jpoorliving on Instagram. And now back to the show.

36:06And we're back. I'm joined now by Hamza Benes, who is the co-founder of an AI company called Presti. Hamza, thank you so much for joining us. Hi, Dennis. Thanks for the invite. So glad to finally get to talk to you. And I want to set this up a little bit for listeners. Give us your quick elevator pitch of what Presti is and what the technology is that's involved. Yeah, well, basically, Presti is a software for home furnishing companies to help them stage their products using AI. Basically, with just a photo of your product, like, for example, a sofa, you can stage it in any kind of setting. For example, like a Victorian house living room in a few seconds.

36:47So you just upload the photo, you describe the setting and you get the results. And that really sounds like magic sometimes. Well, it does sound like magic. And we're going to talk about some of what's behind the magic. How did you decide to focus on the home furnishings industry? Actually, we started with my co-founders. We have like a deep AI expertise. We started with product staging in general. So any kind of products. And then we realized, you know, the more we were like, you know, prospecting, discussing with potential customers, we realized that the ones that were the more interested were in the home furnishing industry.

37:25And they were sometimes really begging us to find a way to save the products because the products were not manufactured yet. They just had some photos. They needed to ship it to publish them on some marketplaces. So that's how we got our first customers. And then we realized that the pain was big and that's how we decided really to focus on that industry. Okay, well, and I want to talk about that pain point more. But tell me a little bit about your fellow co-founders and your company, how big it is. And you've got a lot of smart people working there, it sounds like. Yeah, definitely. So actually, we are four co-founders.

38:03We were friends at the university. So we studied in France in an engineering school in Paris. And then so it's been like more than two years ago now. And then we launched our software actually it was beginning of last year and things have been so far you know going really well we've done a fundraising last year of 3.5 million dollars and we've been able to you know have around 250 customers today that are using us we're still like around like 15 in the company between Europe and in the US but yeah things have been going pretty well so far and And happy to continue that way. So when you reached out to investors, what were you telling them you saw as the big opportunity?

38:51And getting back to the pain point issue, which is always the parlance or the framing of, so here's this problem that we're trying to fix. What was compelling about the problem you were trying to solve and the market that you saw for it? The problem that we're trying to solve is that today when you want to stage your products, create like an environmental shot, a lifestyle photo of your product, it costs you a huge amount of money and a huge amount of time to be able to create the photo. So either, you know, usually people, they either do like some 3D rendering, they do some photo shoots, sometimes they do it manually on Photoshop.

39:27So all those ways to do it are really time consuming. And with the advance of generative AI, it's now possible to do it in a few seconds. So that's how, you know, we basically bring a technology that is solving a big problem that is worldwide. And what is the difference between what you are doing and what some listeners might have experienced using MidJourney or Dolly or even using AI-enhanced Photoshop, for example? Well, basically, we've made the tool very specific to the home finishing industry because it has some requirements. The first one is like you never want the product to be changed, to be modified, because you're selling your products.

40:15If it's a bit different when you sell it online, you will get like a lot of returns, customer complaints, etc. Second, the thing that we've made different is that we've built on building a quality of image that is very high compared to what you can find in some other tools. Because for us, what we are targeting are like the big companies with high quality expectations. And so we've really built an AI that is trained on this industry to be able to create images with no hallucinations, with no artifacts, all those kind of things you usually see when you use some kind of AI tools. And the third point also that we've really focused on is like building the right features that a home, like a furniture company would need.

40:58For example, you might want to reuse the setting for like various types of products. That's something very important for a lot of them. And that's not the kind of thing you can do with other tools. And I would say then the last one, and it's not negligible, it's like the UI, the user interface and experience, because we're working in an industry where a lot of people don't have like a graphic skills. And we've built a very handy UI so that everyone can have the skill to create its own image, whether you're like marketing, e-commerce, sales, et cetera. So picking up on one of the things that you just outlined there, which is this not making a change to the image that's actually uploaded.

41:41So this seems so basic. And yet when you go on a lot of these AI sites, They just can't leave that original image alone. They make some change to it. It becomes something else when they put it into a room setting. What did you have to do to train your model to build on that original image rather than alter it in any way? Yeah. Well, I think first, a lot of companies are not even trying to do it because it's not like their use case, their main use case. you know, like a majority, a lot of people are creating the images for many kind of, you know, like use cases. And the difference with us is that given that we are tackling one specific problem, that's why it was so important for us.

42:24And that's why we've made all the efforts to make sure that this happens. And it's like building our own AI with its data, with its architecture. So basically making the right architecture to ensure that at the end, there's no chance that the product will be changed. And of course, you know, when we released the first versions, we had like some issues where the product was a bit changed and our customers were mentioning that. And that's how, you know, with the feedback that we got, we kept improving things until, you know, we didn't face any more of that kind of problem. What's really happening when we upload an image to your site and then you create, I did it this morning, just fooling around with it, uploading a picture of a piece in my living room and then watching your site just create a whole background based on just some very simple inputs of the rug I wanted, what color I wanted the wall to be.

43:16And then literally within seconds, up came a whole array of images. So what's happening there? So basically, the AI is built on understanding the product that you upload and the description that you provide so that it's able to create an image with the right lighting, with the right shadows and basically the right elements that you've provided so that at the end, the image looks realistic. And that's the magic behind it is that at the end, when you see a photo, it looks real. There's no fake effect that potentially you could find if you just apply a photo of your product in an image. And did it take you a long time to train the model to understand this is what a blue wall looks like, this is what a window.

44:06I mean, from other conversations that we've had, that seems to be the most challenging part of the training. Yeah, that's one of the challenge, basically, to get the control on the outputs that you get, on the elements that you see in the scene. But I would say, you know, the first step, and that was also a big challenge, was like to avoid all those cavions of hallucinations, artifacts that you tend to find with AI. So that was a big challenge, I would say, first year to get images that are usable. So that was the first step. And then the second step was making the AI better and better so that when you say, I want a blue color world, that you really get a blue color world, not a white color world.

44:48I would say like today, especially since the beginning of the year, we reach a really high, I would say, a higher level of control on the output. And I think this will continue to improve. So you'll be able to give like even more detailed prompts, basically even more detailed description. And yeah, you will get exactly what you want. And the idea longer term is what is this going to make possible? Yeah. So basically what we want to do is really simplify the way you stage your products. So there's still a lot of improvements that can be done in the way you control the output and the quality of the image that you get.

45:32It's already pretty good, but there's for sure a huge margin of improvements. So basically getting the perfect shots just in a few seconds. But then we're also working on other functionalities that we think are important because that's the feedback that we hear from a lot of our customers. So for example, when you have like different sealer shots of different products and you want to combine them in the same scene. So that's something for sure that will be possible with AI. So you put like your sofa with your coffee table. For example, we also work on a big feature, which is like a fabric texture.

46:09So basically when you apply a fabric on a product, that will be also possible with AI. And that's one of the big feature we're working on. So you came to High Point Market. you came to Vegas, right? You started showing this to people in the furniture industry. Were they skeptical? Were they excited? Did they understand the tool and what it was all about? What were some of the reactions and responses? Overall, I was really surprised by the low awareness of the industry about such a technology. People have never heard about the fact that you You can create your images with AI. So that's why when we were going to the different showrooms, I would say people had never heard about what we were doing, but they were open to hear what the technology was doing.

47:00The feedback I got was, whoa, every time I was showing the way the tool works, there was, oh, I didn't know that was possible. That's amazing. We could definitely do something with that. And I was pretty happy during the last Vegas market in January to see that some of the photos that were actually displayed in the showrooms, but also at the main entrance, were done with AI through our software. So actually, there were some photos already shown, but people didn't even realize that was AI. But that's the ambition, of course. You mentioned the fabric issue. So this has been a big issue to make this look realistic.

47:37It sounds like showing textures is hard to do, showing the depth of what a lot of fabrics could look like. Tell me about the challenges there. That's a challenge we definitely tackled. So like if you have like a velvet sofa and you want to make sure that the velvet will be as you know, as it sees in real life. The good thing with the software is that you're 100 % sure that will be the case. And by the way, sometimes that's a challenge you find with some other technologies like CGI, because you're modeling the product, sometimes it's very hard to remodel the velvet fabric. Or if you sell a rattan table, it's not easy to remodel the rattan fabric.

48:16And that's why I really believe about the potential of AI, because you use as an input the real photo of the product. So the rattan will look real, the velvet will look real. But then the other challenge that we're working on is because a lot of companies have like 100 fabrics that they want to apply on a given products and they cannot like manufacture all of them. And what we would like to do is like give them the possibility to apply those hundred fabrics very easily on their products without having to remodel the product or like even manufacture it and photo shoot it. So the idea would be that I can take a picture of the sofa that I've manufactured and then I can, through your technology, render all of the different fabric options or render a whole host of different background options and create a whole catalog or a sales tool for this product just from the original image that I took rather than investing in multiple photo shoots and all the costs involved.

49:20Yes, exactly. Yes. Okay. So the knock on a lot of this or the pushback, especially from designers who, again, a lot of them have used it. A lot of the images seem, and what's the right word? They seem very generic. They seem very banal. And so the designers say, but where are all of the images from some of the great design books? Where are all of the images from a Paris 1920s apartment that is what designers really use as inspiration? How do we train AI on all of those images as well? I would say, like, first, that's the work we've been doing the past few years is pushing the boundaries of the quality of the image generated with AI.

50:09And I think today, especially as I told you with our latest version, the quality is really impressive. But then, of course, there's something that impacts a lot of the image. And I think that's one key element to highlight is that the better the input, the better the output. So basically, if you provide a photo of your product that looks real, at the end, you might get some very high quality results as an output from the AI. Because actually the AI understands that the product being real will create also a setting that looks real. So that's why also if you want to reach high quality images, you also need to work on providing high quality inputs.

50:48I think AI is really like a third alternative that complements to photo shoots and CGI. And basically, based on the use case you need, you will prioritize a solution over the other. Because of course, if you just need to stage one product, yeah, why not doing it through a photo shoot? You will get all the control that you want, all the quality. But our customers, sometimes they have like hundreds, thousands of products, even tens of thousands of products. That's where they need some possibilities to do it at scale. And we're working on making sure that the quality is the highest possible. The fear that many have is the impact on creativity.

51:30The fear that people have, and again, designers, creative directors, photographers, many of whom consider themselves to be artists and to be creating inspiring work, they hope. How does that fit into what is happening with AI and the images that we're seeing today? Well, my opinion is that actually AI brings you the possibility to be very creative because there's no like a finite number of settings that you can create. There's like really an infinite number because that's the principle of AI is that every time you create like a new image, you'll get a new one that didn't exist anywhere else before.

52:16And so basically, if you are very creative in the way you describe the room that you want, you'll be able to create some amazing things. And I think that's like a possibility that didn't exist before that now basically AI brings. So that's why it opens up a lot of possibilities. And actually, I'm a bit surprised because, for example, on our platform, we've built some templates, you know, some predefined settings. and I'm always surprised by how many are using these predefined sets, whereas now the AI brings you the possibility to be as creative as you want. So I think, yeah, that's why I think, yeah, there's still a lot to do in terms of creativity.

52:55It's just like the way you would do it is different. Now you need to iterate in the prompt. You need to describe what you want. And of course, also like in terms of technologies, a lot of things are coming to also help you being even more creative. The fear around photography, I mean, this is a big conversation because it does seem, and again, we can't sugarcoat it, it does seem like this is really coming for the photography industry. Yes? Yeah, I mean, for sure. I mean, but like we work with a lot of photo studios that basically decided to use AI because for them, when the CGI AI started like about 10, 15 years ago, they basically added CGI as an alternative to their customers.

53:43And I think that's the same. You need to bring the best option for the use case that you're looking for, but it won't replace fully photography, but it will just like give another alternative when you will, in some cases where it's more relevant. But then, you know, like also, you know, in the past, you couldn't do like 10 ,000 photos in two months. So actually it's not even replacing it. It's just like doing something that wasn't possible before. You would do like maybe a hundred photos, real photos, and then you can do all the rest with AI. So again, I think like any innovation, it's replaced part of the existing solution, but also opens up a lot of possibilities.

54:27And there's also one thing about photography that I want to add is that now because of AI, it's becoming really important to get good silo shots, good pack shots. And that's where you will need a lot, the photographers, because they will need to create like the, they will need, yeah, create the right pack shots so that at the end, when you upload the pack shot on the platform and on the AI, you're able to get good photos. So actually it might even create more work for the photographers, but not for the room scenes, for the product shots. Got it. Okay, so for very different kind of photographs than perhaps they were doing.

55:02Exactly. So rather than the big room setting scenes, having really tight, good product shots that can be siloed. Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Okay. So there was a perception with our industry when the internet came along, many people in our industry either hoped it would go away. That didn't happen. Or they didn't know how to best take advantage of it. Historically, the home industry has had a little bit of a tension with technology. And so with AI today, I think many people sort of act as though maybe it's a fad, maybe it's not really going to have a meaningful impact and that it's not going to be useful to them.

55:49Talk to me about that. Tell me how you address that. I think it's similar. And the impact also is pretty massive. And people that don't see it yet are just like a bit late in the adoption and it will create like more work for them. But when you see like all the potential that it has like on images, on text, on how it can summarize things for you, how we can create things for you, websites, applications, etc. You couldn't say that, okay, this will just disappear. I think it's been there for two years now, if we talk about this generative AI era. And in two years, we can see to what extent it has changed the processes and the companies that have adopted it.

56:34If we had to compare, it's like we are in 2002. and then 2002 like nothing existed yet on the internet aspect so that means that there are so many things that will continue to come in the next years yeah I don't think it will fade away it's like just the beginning it's just the beginning and yeah that's why actually it's really an exciting era to live in and there's so many things that people can build and that's why I really feel excited about this this this era yeah well these are exciting times Hamza are you are you coming to high point in the spring? Yes, of course. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, so I will definitely see you there then.

57:12Uh, we'll, we'll have to, we'll have to have a coffee in high point. And I'm, I'm eager to, to hear who you're, who you're meeting with and, uh, and what people are saying, but I'm, but I'm delighted that you could make the time and I so appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks a lot, Dennis.

57:31And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred? The Inc. Female Founders 500 caught my eye. It's difficult to say, but a very cool list. Inc. Magazine put together a list of female founders for its March issue. And I was just excited to see a lot of people from our neck of the woods on it. Shea McGee, former podcast guest, of course, McGee & Co. was on there, as was Anna Brockway of Cherish, and podcaster Debbie Millman. So it was just cool to see design represented on that list.

58:05I thought that was fun. What caught you out this week, Dennis? I am actually heading out to Los Angeles next week, Fred. You and I will be doing the Thursday show while I'm out in LA. What's bringing me out to LA is the big event that we're doing at the Pacific Design Center on Wednesday, the 19th, which is For the Love of Home, a fundraiser that's going to be benefiting LA Can Do and the LA Fire Department Foundation and the Pasadena Humane Society. It's going to be a big day of multiple panels that I'll be doing, but also a bunch of events that are happening in various showrooms. There's even a rumor that Charles Cohen might be on hand for the festivities.

58:48So we'll see. But there's a lot going to be going on in LA. and I'm hoping that I'm going to see a lot of listeners at the big event. I'm hoping that people will get tickets for the March 19th for the Love of Home event. It's going to be a very special day indeed. Everyone is turning out their very best. Awesome. Well, I'm sad to miss it, but excited to hear about it from you next week. Well, I'm looking forward to it. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com.

59:26If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.