The Thursday Show: Why don't more designers embrace the partnership model? Plus: Schoolhouse is sold at auction

25:36and I think that a lot of these companies have clearly gotten the message and a lot of great new designs are going to be coming out and I'm sure they're going to be very innovative and they're going to try and offer as much as they possibly can to get people excited about this, again, because I think they see the inevitability in all of this and if there are health benefits or if there are safety issues that they can point to to help ease people into this, I think that's what they will do But I'm sorry that it's disappointing for you at the moment. I'll take the hit. I'm gladly sit there frowning at my scrambled eggs.

26:12I know I'm doing the right thing for the planet. Well, I think that's hopefully how more and more people will feel. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about breakup design, Fred. For the New York Times, Dina Cheney took a look at how the end of a relationship can be the perfect time for a home makeover. controversial article in your times area i mean this this was a really interesting read and certainly something i've encountered many many times and you know writing about interior design is you know so many designers will tell a story about you know working with the married couple and then they split up and then the designer has to go with one of them or has to sort of delicately work with both of them and i i think this is a situation that pops up again and again And one in which the sort of, you know, the therapist hat that designers have to wear gets worn pretty hard during these experiences.

27:03Well, exactly. And every designer will tell you that they're certainly a big part of their job is navigating the the marital dynamic. And and a few designers wrote to me just before we came on air about how sometimes they get stuck in the middle and the couple starts to separate and they say, well, who who gets the designer? Who gets to work? Right. Exactly. That's a big deal. That's a that's a big issue. And I think also you hear so often from designers that they have to try and figure out who's really the decision maker here. Is it the husband? Is it the wife? Is it the two husbands, the two wives?

27:41What's the dynamic? And it can be challenging. Yeah, it's a fraught situation. I mean, it is also candidly a business opportunity. I mean, I think that like when someone is really looking to start over, like that leads to work for designers. You know, it's, it's interesting. There was this firm, I think it's called Stripe Street Studio that started a few years ago and they were profiled. We might've written about them. I know AD wrote about them. It was like specifically designed to work with divorced dads, which is a very specific business niche. But I think it's like, you know, I think divorced dads often do need help kind of, you know, putting their lives and their homes together following, following a split.

28:17And so I think this is, this is something that comes up again and again for designers and is, is very delicate. it. I also think, you know, one kind of, I don't know, a cool thing about the article is there's so many interesting anecdotes about how people really use, you know, their homes as an opportunity to express not only who they are, but where they're going in their life. So many people have these almost cleansing rituals of, you know, getting rid of the stuff from the X, you know, this is how I want to be in the next phase of my life and expressing that through design, you know, and I think we often kind of fall into the trap of talking about, oh, what a pretty room and how beautifully put together.

28:50But reading these stories, you really experienced like, you know, the emotional side of design in a powerful way. I agree. And it's a reminder of just how intimate and how personal and how deep into people's lives designers have to get in order to effectively do their job. So, you know, you have to know what's going on and the dynamic and it's challenging. And then you perhaps you complete the project with the couple and then they separate and then you end up with one of the people from the couple and and you have to create a new life for for them. Designer Denise McGehee wrote to me that you need to completely redo the bedroom and the living room because, frankly, that's where all the memories live.

29:40And I thought that was such a great point. And I'm glad to know that divorced dads have firms specializing in their needs. Exactly. That's comforting in a difficult time. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including the latest industry hires and Sean Lowe's advice on what to do when a former employee starts poaching your clients. But first, a quick break.

30:10This winter, Lalloy debuted beautiful new rug and pillow collections that are grounded in rich colors, natural materials, and innovative craft. Their expansive breadth of product includes new must-see collaborations with designers Jeremiah Brent and Leanne Ford. See it all at LalloyRugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs dot com. And follow at Lolloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok for the latest news and collaborations from Lolloy. At the Huntington in California, unfinished artwork by William Morris, J.H. Durrell, and other original creatives behind Morris & Co. have been uncovered. Now these historic sketches, left incomplete for more than a century, have been carefully finished by the Morrison Co.

31:03Design Studio and transformed into an extraordinary new body of work. It's a brand new chapter in a legacy that spans more than 160 years. Discover the brand new wallpaper and fabric designs within the collection on wmorrisenco.com. And now, back to the show.

31:28and we're back i'm joined now by interior designer bella mancini who's recently made a big change at her firm which we're going to talk about bella welcome hi dennis so good to see you again it is great to have you on a pleasure i've i've wanted to speak with you for some time finding a reason to have you on the show bella so i'm glad i'm glad that you made this change at your firm just so that I could have an excuse. I did it for you. Well, I appreciate that. That is very kind. Before we get into all of that and talk about the name change and the partnership elevation and all of that, let's tell people a little bit about your career and how long you've been in this business.

32:10Sure. Oh, well, at this point, it's been feels like forever, but In a good way, of course. I started my business 25 years ago. And before that, I worked for an incredible woman named Ellen Hamilton. I'm sure most of your listeners know Ellen. I am not formally trained as an interior designer. I have a degree in clothing and textiles. And I worked in the fashion industry before I made a switch to interior design. and I have been practicing residential interior design in New York City for the last 25 years and I have a small office, small staff, and small by design. And we do everything from straightforward decorating to ground up construction, new builds, and everything.

32:58So part of the reason that we wanted to have you on was that you've recently elevated a longtime associate of yours named her to be a partner, Taryn Burns. And right. And it's a very exciting time, name change and all of that. But take me back to when you first started thinking about this, talking about this, what led to this decision? Why now? All of that. So I've made Taryn Burns a partner and she has been with me since 2011. And when she came on, She was a design assistant. She had done a couple of internships in the industry, but not very many. She had a stint at House Beautiful. She worked for another designer.

33:42And she is a hard worker. And she's been with me ever since. So she was a design assistant. She was a designer. And eventually, she came to be what we call the studio director. So all these made-up titles in this business. No, she was a studio director, really, truly managing designers and timelines and making sure things were running very smoothly. So a few years ago, I want to say maybe four or five years ago, we talked about it a little bit, like what that might look like. And I think at the time, mainly, I don't think she was quite ready. She had small children. And I think, you know, she was thinking about maybe did she want to leave New York City?

34:25Did she have other things that she wanted to pursue? she's wildly creative and always learning. And I think she was questioning what she wanted to do. And then four or five years go by and here we are still here. And one day I sort of had her captive in the car. We were driving from the Hamptons back to the city and I sort of looked at her and I said, okay, I'm asking you a question as a friend, not as your boss. And she was like, like, oh boy. And I said, how much longer do you think you want to do this? And she said, well, it's funny you should mention it. I very recently been thinking I might like to have my name on the floor.

35:05And I just looked at her, I said, let's do it. So that was probably last summer, I think. And then it took about four, five, six months, I guess, in total for us to have everything, all the legalities and things in place. It was a much bigger job than I think she or I ever knew it would be to do the website and all of the printed collateral and all of that jazz. Oh, and we also moved offices and did a renovation to an office, which took a lot of time and energy. So we did this all over the fall and we were ready to announce it in December to our clients. So when she said that she was keen to have her name on the door, did you for a moment, did you did you panic thinking that that meant she wanted to go out on her own and have her own for?

35:53No, no, not really. I mean, if she wanted that, I would have been happy to support that, too. I don't want to hold people in my office any longer than they want to be there. So I would have been very happy to support her. But I knew what she meant. And she's essentially been a partner to me. I mean, really, truly, we've done, it's something that's always been true internally, but to kind of make this external declaration, if you will, we keep saying we got married after all these years. But I really wanted to give her the credit for what she's done and what she's helped to build. We have a strong business.

36:33I'm really proud of that. We work on wonderful projects. And she's worked on every single project that I have for the last 15 years. So it's kind of celebrating her hard work as much as mine, certainly. So this is an issue. Part of why I wanted to talk to you about this is because a lot of firms have struggled with how to keep key staff members engaged. Is a partnership track something worth creating for firms? And then many firms have elevated partners only to see those partners leave shortly thereafter. We won't name names, but a lot of firms have tried and haven't been successful. It's not always the smoothest path, even though many struggle with wanting to give their team members more.

37:28Well, for us, I'm not worried about that. We have an equity agreement that's in place that eventually I'll be able to step away. She'll continue on with the firm someday. I don't know what that looks like. I know that's not something that we're talking about at this moment. But I think law practices have structures like this. Why do we not have more of this in our world? I think, look, I think a lot of designers, I don't know how to say this nicely. I think there can be a lot of ego that drives our business. And I think if you're willing to give up some of that notoriety, then it probably would go a long way for your employees.

38:13It is no secret that every project that you see published or on someone's website, there was a team of people behind that name on the door producing that work. And frankly, many times doing much more work than the person whose name is on the door. So I think if we all kind of collectively as a business, if that's something that people care about, you know, like if you have, if you don't have a lot of turnover and if you don't want to have a lot of turnover, raising people up within the firm is a really good way to keep people too. I do feel like if business owners were to raise up their staff in whatever that means for them, so if that's in a profit-sharing model or in just giving credit to the team that produces the great work, talking about the team when they're on new business calls, that's something that's really important to me because I want every prospective client to know that I'm not the only person working on their project.

39:14and I will not always meet the person that they're speaking to. So I would say, frankly, you don't want me managing your delivery schedule. That would be a really bad thing. But I love to be in every client-facing meeting, but it does not mean that I'm doing all the work. So I am very clear about that in the very beginning. And I think if more designers were, they'd perhaps have better retention than they are rumored to have. You know, like some people are notorious for having a revolving door and there's got to be a reason for that, whether it's people are working too hard for too little pay or they're just not being appreciated.

39:53I don't know. Well, I appreciate you saying that. And I think often we're not as candid as we should be in this industry about what some of the challenges are. And I think when you do get people to speak frankly about it, and I've had several guests on who say, listen, in our industry, we think about it much too late in our careers. We don't plan for it. We lose a lot of key people along the way. And I think that that's true. And so I think it's great that it sounds like you have created it. And I want to talk a little bit more about what this means as far as the equity arrangement and all of that.

40:32But I think also it sounded like there is a long term component to this as well, that were you to eventually one day decide you want to leave, there is some kind of a plan in place for Taryn to take over the firm and all of that. there is and at least there's a structure for a plan to be in place because i don't know what that looks like anyways but i think you know i like the idea of being an example of a very small business um but one that might kind of change and elevate the way we think about interior design in general so like you know not just as a solo practice not thinking about interior design just as a solo practice, but more of like a professional business with partnership structures, career development, long-term planning, like what we're just saying.

41:25We looked at the structure of, and I don't know the structure exactly, but like Bunny Williams is a big kind of shining star for us in terms of, well, lots of things. And believe me, I make no illusion. I am no Bunny Williams. I'm not, I know that. But I loved when she rebranded. Of all the people in the world who probably didn't need to do that, she did. And Elizabeth is obviously a terrific, terrific designer and business person. And it was the most obvious thing. If you were going to have this person do this, it would be her. But when we looked at Sunny Williams, I think it was just recognizing her leadership, recognizing elizabeth's leadership and i wanted to do that it's a model that it honors the collaboration and it also positions her for the future so you know the rebrand is just about building a legacy i suppose that one that extends beyond me well and and i'm glad to hear you say that and i and i think that that that bunny did set a great example again one that i wish more people would follow and and i wish i wish we were being flooded with announcements of of people being elevated within firms and, and people's names being put on the door?

42:41Because honestly, I think when you talk to people off the record, there's a, there are a lot of people who wish they were getting more of the, to your point, whether it's get the credit or just get the recognition or, or just get a clear path to where their career is, is going. And again, I think that's what people want more than anything. Tell me what the future looks like. I do think though, So, Dennis, that's why you see so many people starting their own businesses. You know, they go to firms and they work for a few years and there's really no, they reach what they perceive to be a ceiling and then they just go and they start a business.

43:17And frankly, they have no business starting a business. And I do think that that could be why interior designers have such this reputation. Like, think how many calls, and I know that your audience probably has all of these calls too, like these nightmare stories that these poor people tell about hired this person and they never finished the job and left all this. And I think that part of that probably has to do with just not everybody should be running a business. And like, that's kind of OK. Exactly. And so I think people probably get bummed out that they're not able to do more or have that recognition.

43:52And so they they leave to start their own thing. And sometimes that's successful. Sometimes it isn't. Well, I mean, I think it's I think it's a very good point. And I think that we don't talk about, it's another issue we don't talk about enough. And I try and raise this issue when I'm at the New York School of Interior Design talking to students about what their future path might be. Not everyone needs to start their own firm. And in fact, I try to encourage as many people as will listen, go and work for another firm for as long as you can and learn all you can and see if that's the path for you because because not everyone wants to be responsible for every little thing.

44:33And you yourself didn't necessarily think that you wanted to have your own firm when you were first starting out. Well, I certainly didn't. I mean, I didn't know what I didn't know. And I do think that for me personally, starting a business was, I am a daughter of an entrepreneur, danced six days a week when I was growing up. I started a business when I was 27. I didn't know what I was doing at But while I was starting it, I worked at an antique store on the weekend to make my very low rent. I do think that it was maybe an easier time then than it is now. I think that New York City is really expensive.

45:12And I don't think there are that many kids showing up from bright eyes in California and getting rent controlled apartments in the East Village like I did. I just don't know that that's happening anymore. So I think it's a little bit harder to imagine just like starting a business now. But I think working under somebody and if you do think you want to have your own business, really learning about the business. Like there's a million great designers out there, but the business part of it is 90 % of it, really. I mean, it just is the fact of the matter. If you want to be successful, you got to know what you're doing.

45:49Coming back to the partnership, often a partner is asked to make a certain investment in the firm when they get made a partner. They put up equity. I mean, was that part of the conversation or consideration for you? It was part of the consideration. In the end, I decided not to do that. And I decided to gift Taryn equity because she has been with me so long. And I just feel like she has earned that equity over the many years that she's been such a loyal and dedicated employee, I guess I call her, but a partner. and so for me that was not a model that I just didn't feel good about it and so I gifted her a percentage and she will earn continue to earn a percentage every year for five years and until we're nearly equal and then at that point I will be an old woman no no I mean I really am not retiring anytime soon but it just allows for her to kind of like grow in this role like believe me she she's taking on stuff now like she's like it's cracking me up and i like i love it like i'm getting text messages on saturday i'm like someone else is thinking about this as much as i i always have you know so it's been interesting but that was a model that worked really well for us and we worked with a lawyer our our lawyer who worked with our lawyer to figure out all the finances and and things which are changing for both of us for right now.

47:24And there's a lot more eyeballs on the finances now, which is a great thing all around. But yeah, the equity piece of it, I think that's probably something that was hard for people to get around. Like for me, it just, it really, it made sense for me. I know from talking to others that often that letting go of the actual equity ownership, and even if it's a five-year plan and all of that, that has often been one of the hardest parts people have shared with me that it's all very nice to put the person's name up on the door. But as you say, when you're sitting down with your attorney and your accountant and saying, oh, wait, so tomorrow I won't own 100 % of this company, I'll own some lesser amount, that has tripped a lot of people up.

48:09And so it's not a small consideration. It's not. But I mean, for me, at least, I have been this sole owner for a long, long time and I like being able to share that the responsibility of future growth and like I said having somebody think about it as much as I am and that's not you know I I don't know I would think that people have a harder time with the main piece of it which has been complicated in our office because we were Bell and Antony design which we called BMD and we did for many many years And now we're MBD, which is just been really funny to get used to. People are struggling with. Yeah.

48:49Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't I don't know. Oh, and there's lots of hard things about this, like getting the Instagram and all the things. Meta wants to make this as hard as possible for us. And it sounds like you were suggesting earlier with Taryn texting you on a Saturday that it perhaps given her a renewed energy and focus. Well, of course it has. I think that that's what I wish other business owners would think about. It's nice to have somebody else worrying about the same things you worry about, keep you up at night, and not just share in the design with somebody. but to also share in the really hard stuff, like a difficult client interaction or, you know, she's helping me.

49:34She's always sort of helped me with this. So if we have to get contracts out and, you know, being a sole proprietor, people always want to talk to you. That is people always want to talk to you. And we still have some like really long time legacy clients who I think that they still prefer if I'm, I'm there, but for anyone new, it's so nice to know that Taryn can be there just as much as I am. She can be the kind of face of the project and the meeting. And I want to, we're always going to be doing things together, but I don't have to feel like I need to be in every single meeting. And I think business owners, if they can give up that kind of control, I think they should think about how wonderful that might be for them and focus on the things that they really like, which is, you know, for me, I feel like I'm going to get to actually do a lot more design work now because I have somebody sharing the burden of some of the administrative and more business kind of things.

50:31I know that, uh, that in the past you've worked with, uh, with our own Sean Lowe. Of course I have. And, uh, and that he helped you, uh, change how you looked and thought about your finances, right. And great many ways. He's been an incredible, he's probably spoken about in our office more than anyone. He has, He has changed our life. He really has. He very much transformed our business. Yeah, we worked with him and he was very excited about all this. Well, I wondered. So, I mean, I assume that he's in full support of this move. He is. He is. He's a big fan of Taryn. So, yeah. And I think mine.

51:11But he's very much a huge fan of Taryn. Well, I mean, I think, I mean, to give credit, I mean, I think anyone who spent any time with Taryn is a big fan of Taryn. So I think that goes without saying. And I think it honestly, I think it reflects well on you because I think when people, I mean, and many people will probably be meeting her now in ways that they perhaps hadn't before. And when they meet this impressive partner, they go, wow, Bella, she's got an even more impressive firm than I realized, you know, with the people that you have. So I think there's a lot to be said for that. And I think also, and obviously we're joking, you're not going anywhere.

51:50This isn't like some immediate succession plan, but again, it, it creates the opportunity to have that conversation down the, down the road. It does because, okay, let's, let's even just say it's like, you know, 10, 15 years from now, it made me really sad. Like this idea that like one, one day, am I just going to close my business down? Is that how this works when you are a small interior design firm that to me sounded so depressing so that is certainly not the reason that we're doing this but i love the idea that she'll carry this forward and i don't know maybe there'll be new partners maybe um you know she'll decide to to continue adding and growing and maybe she'll have the time and energy to to make it bigger and if that's what she chooses to do down the road.

52:38And I'll just, you know, I don't know, send postcards from Italy. I think the point that you're making, though, is an important one, because again, another issue that is so frustrating to many is why don't more firms in our industry carry on? And the reason they don't carry on is because the principals don't think enough about succession, long-term planning, elevating key people within the organization. I want more firms in our industry to last. It makes me sad that Parrish Hadley went away. It makes me sad that there are so few firms that have made it through the test of time. I mean, listen, maybe there should be some sort of advisory in helping people navigate this or do this and elevating the next generation.

53:28And I would be happy to talk to anyone through how we have done it and how we are continuing to do it and how we see it. And, you know, it is a lot to navigate. But I really, I very much care about my business. And I know other people do, too. But I'm not, you know, this isn't a hobby. So I'm not, this isn't something that I'm just going to shut down one day and be okay with. No. And I think that's so important. And I wonder, Bella, as we wrap up, what advice you would give to people who are on the fence about this or who are looking around the office thinking, gee, this person might leave. That person might not stay for much longer.

54:11How do I think about this and how do I think about retaining key people? What would you say to them? I think that people need to be as generous as they can be with both their financials and also with their time and allowing people to shine. When you give little pieces away, it doesn't feel so scary if you're trying to bring somebody in as a partner. And I've long done that with my staff. So this doesn't feel like such a huge departure except in name and then, of course, all the legal stuff. But you're not going to want to start from having somebody on just a straightforward salary and their name is nowhere near the door and you don't let them speak in meetings and they don't take client meetings on their own to being a partner.

55:06So I would say roll it out very slowly. You give a little bit and see how they do. Let them show you how they can shine and trust your instincts. I don't think that having someone buy in is a bad thing. And in fact, not to out myself as not listening to Sean, but I think that Sean thinks that is a really smart way. And I very much see his point of having somebody buy in because then they take it much more seriously. I think in the end, I didn't think that that was right for me, but I do understand where he's coming from and I can see his point certainly. So I think that's a great model for somebody who might not have the history with someone in the way I have with Taryn, but just, you know, making somebody feel that they're really important.

55:54Team is so important. I don't know why designers want to hold so much of the credit for everything. I think that's kind of where you just need to stop, you know, their own egos get in the way. Well, I think that's very true. And so I think this conversation gives people a lot to think about. And I love that right up until the end, you were taking Sean Lowe's advice, except on this one. I know. I know. And you know what? Here's the thing, Dennis. He doesn't even know that yet. Oh, is that right? No, he doesn't know that. He doesn't know that. We'll see if that makes it into the final edit. We'll see.

56:32I don't know. Sean might have to find out on the podcast that his last little bit of advice. Sorry, Sean. But again, she followed all your other advice. It wasn't easy. I still do. I still do. I still do. In my ear, Bella, you do not get out of bed for less than, you know. That's right. I feel like I'm a supermodel. Well, I know that a lot changed internally for you, but he also made you think very differently about yourself. And so I think that's great. I'm very excited about this. Mancini Burns. Mancini Burns. Mancini Burns. Mancini Burns. It rolls right off the tongue. and Taryn couldn't be happier for you.

57:14Bella couldn't be happier for you. Thank you, Dennis. You've always been such a big supporter of ours. Well, and I will continue to be. Love you and appreciate you. And I'm so grateful to you for making the time to talk to me about it. Thank you. Thank you so much.

57:31And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? Well, Dennis, I wanted to cover this in the regular run of show. Here we go. There wasn't an appetite for it. Maybe we'll circle back next so we can get more in depth into it. But there was an incredible work of investigative journalism by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and PBS Frontline. It was a sort of collaborative journalistic endeavor to look at the big carpet industry in Dalton, Georgia, and their use of these PFAS chemicals, these forever chemicals in their productions.

58:06And I don't want to recap it because it's a 12 ,000 word article puts my long articles to shame. But it's an incredibly in-depth look at how difficult it is to get rid of these chemicals, how they're still in the water of this area. And it's certainly worth a read. And it's a sobering read. And hopefully we'll talk about it next week. But in the meantime, if you're ever interested in that side of the industry, it's a must read. Dennis, what caught you out of this week? I'm excited because I'm going to see the Zach and Fox showroom has had a little bit of a redo as part of launching Zach's latest collection.

58:40He's partnered with, and listeners might remember me telling the story of meeting the team from the PRB collection at the last High Point Market, where, yes, they lured me into their car and drove me to their home so that I could see all the beautiful furniture in their collection. and it's really quite extraordinary. And they've brought some of that collection to New York and they've outfitted Zach's amazing showroom with some of their furniture. And so it seems like a wonderful collaboration and they're going to be there for a bit. And I think designers should run and see it because they've got some really fun stuff to see.

59:18And it's always great to see Zach's new collection as well. So I'm certainly looking forward to it. And I hope that I will bump into a lot of people when I'm there. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.