The Thursday Show: Why Veranda is bringing back nighttime photography. Plus: Dupe.com and Williams-Sonoma settle their lawsuit

24:01So in a way, I feel like I haven't really totally wrapped my head around all this, but in some ways she's doing what we've always said we wanted out of these AI platforms. But what do you think? Well, that's what I couldn't understand. It felt as if there was this AI bridge to partner with an artisan, and the AI component was merely in the ideation or creative process before you sort of get matched up with who's going to help you. And it was interesting to see the variety of different brand partners. I mean, the French silverware maker Christophe and the Cabana is on there and some other brands that people are familiar with.

24:39I guess part of my question is, who do they imagine coming to this site and wanting to make product? Is this, hey, I've been looking for a great gift to make for when I go and stay at someone's home and maybe this is a fun way to create something? Or are they imagining that some other people are going to want to come on to make product to sell and make things in quantity? I mean, who's coming to this site to use AI and partner with these brands? I mean, I think Miriam's answer would be yes. Like, I think it's all of the above would probably be ideal. I mean, I think that's a really interesting question.

25:16And this is so new. It's like, I think the pitch is like, okay, people want custom things, right? You want something that is really specific to you, something that no one else can get. But it's very difficult and arduous to specify a custom product to, you know, work with a maker. That's something that most people can't really do. So I think that the pitch behind Arcade is that let's use AI as a communication tool. So we can send, you know, a rough image to a maker. We can go back and forth using AI, get a workable, you know, design, and then someone else can execute it for me. I can have something that's kind of one of a kind and AI sort of helped me get there.

25:49I think that's like the rosiest version of how this can work. The biggest question is like, can the average, you know, consumer or average shopper really go through that level of complexity to arrive at something that they like? And is it the price that they want? And, you know, is the thing they're looking for? and do customers really know what they want? I think Arcade launched last year and their first category they went after was jewelry. And I think Miriam told me that the biggest problem was that people don't really know how to interact with it. It's like they see a blank slate. They don't know what to type in.

26:16They don't know what they're looking for. And so a lot of the changes they've made kind of turning the site on and off again have been to get to a place where people have like a good customer experience. But I went into this with some skepticism around, is this just creating real world AI slop? After talking to Miriam, I'm convinced that she wants to create a system that pays artisans and makers for their product and pays people for their IP. I think that's really commendable. I do think there's a lot of unanswered questions here. And as we keep circling back to, there's a question of what exactly is the market for this?

26:45So we'll certainly find out. I'm excited to revisit this site. I think it's a really interesting experiment. And we'll have to see. There's going to be lots more developments on this front. So let's keep an eye on it. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about should a hotel feel like a home? That's the question that Rita Koenig explores in her latest column for El Decor, in which she takes a firm stance against unnecessary furniture, boring color schemes, and hotel room TVs, Fred. Did any of those resonate with you? Hot takes from Rita Koenig. I firmly stand against unnecessary furniture in hotel rooms.

27:22Yeah, I mean, I thought this was really interesting, and Rita Koenig is a great writer and really fun and engaging. And I do think there's so much, you know, about the, you know, confluence and divergence between domestic residential interior design rather and hospitality interior design. They seem to come together and pull apart. And that's really fascinating. I just want to dive in really quickly on the hottest of hot button takes where Rita talks about getting rid of the hotel room TV. Do you think there's a future without a hotel room TV? Because at this point, aren't you just looking at your phone all the time anyway?

27:52Like, is there a future without one? What do you think? You know, it's a great question, Fred. several hotel rooms I was in recently, I actually was projecting from my phone to the TV in the room. Okay. Right? So that is the thing. And it also brings up a lot of hotel rooms you check into. There's a lot of old tech that is still in hotel rooms. If you have a current iPhone, most hotel rooms can't yet accommodate you. And so I think the TV and some of the other high-tech offerings are questionable. But it's interesting, what are the elements from home that would help these rooms feel warmer, better?

28:31Certainly, she mentions soft pillows, and I'm with her there. A couple of hotels have a long way to go there. But what else to you feels like home elements that you wish were on offer? I don't know. It's difficult because I do think we can all wax philosophical about how hotel design needs to be more like home design. But at the end of the day, a lot of it is just driven by like economic imperatives, right? One of the things we keep coming back to on the show is most residential designers think, oh, if only I had a boutique hotel project, I could stop listening to all my clients who are whining all the time and, you know, just get a big chunk of money to like just execute a project.

29:06I think the problem is once you get into that world, you're dealing with this thing called the purchasing agent, which is the intermediary in between you and the final project. And they really make all the final decisions about what gets specified and your budget gets cut by the corporate office. and you have to make decisions around efficiency. And so, you know, I really think there's so much that could be improved about hotel design, taking lessons from residential design. But I would suspect that oftentimes it's not really the designer who's failing, but more the budget that's just a limitation.

29:34But I don't know, you travel more than I do. So I feel like you're a little more expert on this matter than I am. Well, I'm spoiled because when I go to London and I stay in a kit camp hotel and everything is - Just rub it in, Dennis. Is fabulous. and then you go and you stay at the La Quinta Inn and it's a big change. But what's interesting to me, and maybe because I'm fresh off this trip that I just took to Chicago where I was spending time with visual comfort and now I'm so conscious of good lighting. But I mean, lighting, I'm amazed that we still haven't cracked the code on good hotel lighting when that seems so basic and everybody talks about that.

30:13So I think there's such an opportunity there. But I also think what are the things that people are going to want when they get there? I'm amazed how many rooms don't have a way to just boil some water or have a refrigerator where you could have some of the food that you brought with you or those sort of offerings. I mean, all of these things seem so basic, but often they're not on hand. I think what you're getting at, and I think what Rita talks about this a little bit, and I think what probably is the truth of the matter is that, you know, it's not simply, oh, we need more residential type finishes and hotel rooms, or we need to, you know, get the look.

30:46We need to sort of think like the way a residential designer would think in the sense of it's not just the look, it's how you're actually going to use the space. But I think there's a lot to learn here. And Rita Koenig is always a reliable guide through the world of design. And she reminds us that there's a lot of opportunity in this space. And I think that, as you were talking about earlier, we went through a period where so many people wanted their homes to feel more like hotel rooms, and we moved away from that. And now I think we do want hotels to feel a little bit homier, only with those big, nice, white, fluffy robes, too.

31:20So definitely don't lose those. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including December's Can't Miss Design events and how a viral sofa pushed a Brooklyn store to the edge of bankruptcy. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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32:45the continental U.S. within four to six weeks. Learn more at eichholz.com. That's E-I-C-H-H-O-L-T-Z.com. And now, back to the show.

33:02And we're back. I've got two guests with me now. First up is the editor-in-chief of Veranda, Steele Marcoux. Steele, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me, Dennis. So glad to have you. And Sean Yashar, brand consultant for design professionals. Sean, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. So glad to have you. And I'm excited to talk about the November, December issue of Veranda, which is going to be part of our discussion today, which is this issue that's all about evening magic, how lighting changes everything. And it's such a fun topic born somewhat, Sean, out of a piece that you wrote for your sub stack about what the heck happened to nighttime photography in magazines.

33:51So let's kick it off there, Sean, and talk about why you chose to write about that and seem so passionate on the subject. Well, thank you. I'm passionate about a lot of subjects. Yes. As you know. Those that know Sean know that. Yes. You know, I feel that we don't talk about design culture as much as we should. And so my sub stack is really born from that. It's about pushing the dialogue forward for decorative arts and interior design culture. And so evening photography is really one of those ideas that I've been playing around with for quite a while. In my business, I produce a lot of shoots for interior designers.

34:32And I don't know, the elephant in the room or the thing that you can't do, according to photographers, according to editors, according to people with taste, is that you can't shoot in the evening because it's coded in such a way. And I'm someone who likes to push against things that don't necessarily make sense to me. It's coded in such a way? So what's the code that is revealed? If you say nighttime photography, what does it really mean to people? Without pontificating or getting too much into it, we can all agree that at some point, as we were getting to the precipice of the millennium, there was a shift away from nighttime photography that was so popular in the 70s and 80s, and even until probably mid-90s, I would say.

35:23And with the shift to the millennium, there was a new administration that wanted to differentiate and, you know, I guess in a way like revolt against a certain type of art direction. and it's miraculous to me. And this is why I proposed us to have this conversation with my readers is that about 25 years of this constant desire for like this evenly lit endless summer aesthetic is quite a wild amount of time. And I think it is kind of rooted in this idea of like evening photography is somehow out of fashion. Okay, okay. Okay. So Steele, were you part of this new administration, Steele, that came in and didn't want there to be nighttime photography, Steele?

36:13Is this you? I mean, I think I was definitely trained that way. I don't know. My first magazine job was in 2006. And so I wasn't the president at that time. I was more just like an intern, literally. But I would say that I certainly was trained that way. All of the art directors just sort of scoff or turn their nose up. If there was ever even a scouting shot with the light on, someone would say, make sure when you're on the shoot, there are no lights, all the shades are open, maybe even open the doors to let more natural light in. So I mean, when Sean's piece came out, which now has probably been a year, maybe a year and a half ago, it just resonated so strongly with me because Because I grew up reading AD, and before it was called AD, Architectural Digest in the 80s and 90s.

37:04And there was evening photography all the time. But yeah, suddenly in the 2000s, it was like that was dated. And maybe even, as you said, Sean, in bad taste. People just totally turned their nose up at it. In bad taste, really? Yeah. We're speaking in such strong terms. We're going there. Well, so Sean, and you brought it up in part because it sounded as though you felt something was lost having nighttime photography go away. So talk to me about that. What were we losing? What are we missing out on? Well, ultimately, interior design has always been about the art of vibing. And if you really think about it in that context, the evening hours are a vibe, you know, a vibe that enhance a lot of stories.

37:52And so for me, I think really what it's about is interior designers might design some homes for evening hours. And so not telling the story accurately is really what is lost. so every story can't be variations on the theme of endless summer and really what is happy some people are happy at night there are also people who are nocturnal i just feel that for us as storytellers we should be able to work with the you know the biggest toolbox of tools and that's what's missing well and and as you say the reality sean of this is when so many people are really home, at least back in the day when everyone left their house to go to work.

38:40That has changed a great deal, I understand, especially for myself. But Steele, I'm wondering what particularly resonated about all of this with you and what made you want to jump all the way into this subject and actually create an issue out of it? You know, I think it was a couple of things. I mean, first of all, there was some nostalgia to it. Like I said, I remember paging through magazine design and shelter magazine issues in the 1980s and 90s and seeing all that great evening photography. I also think all of us, whether it was for six weeks or six months or, you know, six years, have been spending more time at home since the pandemic.

39:22And I think whether we wanted to or didn't, we became more acutely aware of how light changes throughout the day in our homes. And so for so many of us who were, you know, prior to the pandemic only home, maybe from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. or thereabouts, maybe we didn't notice the change as much because there was less change. Right. But if you're there 24 hours in a day, you really see how dynamic your rooms become and how different they appear. all great designers design certain rooms to be enjoyed in the evening hours. Also during the pandemic, I'd had a conversation with David Netto where he talked about the night room.

40:03And this is something that we did a little story about, a couple of stories about actually, very inspired by David's idea of the night room. But there are obviously different paint colors you would choose, different upholstery textiles, probably different rugs and carpets. I mean, all different selections that you would make for a night room. And so in reading Sean's newsletter, it just, it really did, Sean, I know you've laughed about this with me a little bit, but it seemed like a call to action. That's how I interpret it. I love that. That's how you took it. Very much was. And we were, we, you know, a few weeks later, we were having a meeting with the top editor, sort of brainstorming new ideas for issue themes.

40:39Veranda has six issues a year. So we get very, six issues is like, we can't quite be seasonal. So we get more thematic a little bit. And so somehow this idea of a theme of light, lighting, evening came up and it just sort of, I said, oh my gosh, has anyone read Sean's newsletter? And we just kind of took it and ran with it. Well, and it seems there were a lot of different ways that you covered this topic, both in projects and showing projects at various times of day and in various lights. And I think it's the Richard Keith Langham project that's actually in the evening and you see the dark out the window.

41:13Yeah, that one we shot entire, well, maybe not entirely, but all but like two or three images or rooms we shot at night. And that one is the one that our creative director really, I think he was starting to think that I'd lost my mind because, Keith, apologies if you're listening. That house is beautiful during the day and during the night. And so the creative director was like, are you kidding me? We're going to shoot this room in the dark, like with the lights on. Because look, we have a scouting shot and we can see how beautiful it is during, you know, full daylight or whatever. But that's what we did.

41:48And we, and, you know, we, we actually did, we shot most of the house in both day and night light. Then we kind of used a mix in the, in the layout. But, but yeah, that one, that one in particular, the creative director was starting to get a little nervous, I think. But being nervous is good. Yeah, I know. Right. Yeah. I mean, it happens in fashion. There are eras where it's about skinny jeans and then it's about, you know, bootleg jeans and it goes back and forth. And so it's just something about design culture where there are new people entering the design world, even as consumers, as just interested.

42:23We have more eyes on the design world than we've ever had. We're really on a precipice of this like new era. and in this era, it makes sense for us now to step into creativity in a new way. As you say, there are these houses that just like, you know that it's better in the evening and it's such a disservice to have to shoot it that way. And in the case of the project you're talking about, how wonderful that it's great for both. There should be two separate shoots. Exactly. Or maybe that's pushed to socials or that's pushed to something else. You know, there's just like this opportunity to do more.

42:59Oh, you're inspiring me because actually we do have a lot of rooms from that particular house where we shot it at two different times of day and how fun on social, we should do a whole series where we sort of lights on, lights off, lights on. Well, and that's why Sean, I was so curious when you were talking earlier about the coding behind nighttime photography. So I'm biased because the lovely Mrs. Scully worked for Architectural Digest for much of her career, but I think many look back at the, let's call it the 80s and 90s of Architectural Digest's heyday and even the early 2000s. There was a glamour.

43:37There was an elegance and a sophistication to that publication and all that it was showing you. And this was when Architectural Digest was such a part of the zeitgeist and was referred to on sitcoms and was just part of the culture in a way that magazines in general just don't have that kind of influence and power today. But part of that was this old Hollywood feel that it would sometimes have. And nighttime photography was certainly a key element in that, right? Oh, absolutely. And also, I love, of course, glamour, of course, sophistication. Also, this kind of excess feeling of the 80s or the hedonistic quality of maybe disco era.

44:25And, you know, there's deeper stuff to talk about, you know, about why we would want to go away from anything that feels hedonistic starting in the 90s. Did we make a mistake turning away from all of that, Sean? Is that what you're suggesting? There are no mistakes. There are only opportunities. Take us back is all I have to say on that note. But Steele, I want to come back to you and talk about, so when you first brought up the idea of doing all of this and creating this issue, what was the feedback that you got both internally from your team and then as you started to put it out there in the ether, as Sean was referring to earlier?

45:05You know, I would say on our team, we have such a creative team and it was pretty much wild enthusiasm from day one. You know, everybody from our editor who produces jewelry shoots, you know, she was instantly going, oh my God, yes, there used to be a rule. You're not supposed to wear diamonds during the day. Let's do diamonds at night. So, and then to the, you know, someone else who, one of our passionate flower and garden editors, actually, she's a digital editor for us, but she thought, we've got to talk about moon gardens and flowers that bloom at night and that sort of thing. So, there was a lot of enthusiasm from our editorial team.

45:40As I mentioned, our brilliant creative director was a little nervous, being the standard bearer and all for the brand. And so, you know, we worked under his, you know, his guiding sort of principles, of course. And then I would say, you know, then you start to, anytime you plan an issue like this, it's sort of born internally. You start to work through what story ideas, how we're going to shoot them, et cetera. And then you start to take it a little bit outside of the four walls of Veranda to, say, the sales team. And you go, listen to what we're going to do. What do you think? And they got on board pretty quickly, too.

46:20I mean, I think, you know, at first it was sort of like, well, there are only so many lighting companies. And I'm like, no, no, no. It's not just for the lighting companies. You know, it's just it's anybody. I mean, Sean, again, as you say, like it's anyone in the design world that they're going to understand. Yeah, but I actually think that speaking of lighting, I think designers listening can agree with this. How many like websites of lighting design brands tear sheets that show images of the light only off? I know. It's really perplexing. Like it's kind of wild that you're selling a light without the light.

46:54And you might not even have that. Even if you like reach out and say, hey, I need an image of it with the lights on. They won't have it as a light brand. So I actually think this is such an, that was such an opportunity for lighting brands to show their lights on for the first time in like a long time. And there's such an interesting, and we'll get to this in a minute, but I mean, I thought the feedback from photographer Douglas Friedman, Sean, to your post about some of the lighting challenges that have evolved over the years because lighting has changed so much. But take us back, Steele, because there's an advertising component in all of this.

47:27So at some point, the advertising team must have said, hey, I've got an idea for this client. Yeah, they did. I mean, so the editor's letter is a native ad, which we'd only ever done once before for a fabric company. And we had this, that was a few years back. And we sort of, I don't want to say formula, but we had this kind of formula and this idea to take to fabric companies of like, wouldn't it be cool? We can tie our issue theme to your textiles and we could do a little border. I mean, Cabana has nailed this idea. You know, Cabana does a whole textile cover. That would be my dream for Miranda, by the way, if anyone at Hearst is listening.

48:04A textile cover? Well, yeah, sure. Yeah, because I hear those are easy to put together. Very easy. Yeah, I'm sure Hearst wants to get on board with all of those costs. Absolutely. They're looking for innovative ways to spend a lot more money on print media is what I understand. They put that message out a lot. Yes. So anyway, so then the marketing team was kind of like, well, how could we do this but for Hunter Douglas? Because they're interested. They got on board. They totally loved the idea of the issue. And so anyway, it took a little more, I guess, tap dancing and finesse. But in the end, I mean, this is what you want from a native ad is that it actually was so supportive of the editorial mission.

48:44And it was it felt like bonus content that we weren't going to otherwise have. And so it ended up working out really great. And frankly, like even as we're sitting here talking, I'm like, oh, I have so many more ideas for a whole nother writing issue. Um, well, and, and, and, and did anybody give you pushback? I mean, you said you've, you've done it once before with a fabric company. Did anybody give you a hard time about there being an advertiser on the edit letter? And did the, did the sky fall? Did the heavens open? Did they, I mean, dogs and cats living together, did frogs come from the sky?

49:14What happened? No locusts so far have been sent on my house or whatever. But, um, no, I, you know, Dennis, I, I appreciate the question, um, because the deal was inked before certain folks at Hearst even knew. But I did realize that it was probably wise to give my mentor a heads up. And in the end, she was very complimentary, both mainly of our creative director, again, Victor Mays, but saying, okay, this actually really, to the point I was making earlier, this seems to actually thoroughly support the mission of the issue itself. And so, well done. So but yeah, I did have a pit in my stomach for like 15 minutes of like, oh, shoot, that's already a kind of a done deal.

50:00So hopefully everyone will hopefully everyone's going to get on board with that really quickly. Well, it's interesting because, I mean, there is certainly an old guard. Yes. Right. That will that will faint at the that the mere mention that there is an advertiser involved in the edit letter. And and I wonder if that speaks to impart this new age that we're in. And if an advertiser likes this idea of what we're doing with the issue. Let's go. I mean, perhaps, probably. But I will say, all joking aside, there are, you know, we have this wonderful editorial director at hers, Lucy Kalin, who's the mentor I was referring to.

50:39And she, you know, has the highest of standards and is not going to compromise. She also, you know, is very aware of the economics of late 2025 or whatever. But I think I rely on her and I trust her and I trust her judgment. And so that was where I was like, OK, let me at least get her eyes on this before it goes to press so that she's not, you know, caught off guard opening up veranda like a few weeks from now going, what in the hell happened here? But in this case, it was so organic how it came up. It's not like it's not like someone came to us and said, would you ever would you ever do this?

51:14And then we sort of. Hey, would you ever do a nighttime issue? Would you ever do a night issue? Put some shades in there? Yeah, and we tossed out all the work we'd already done and then like Reed did everything. No, instead it really did stem from what I now understand to be a conversation between you, Dennis, and Fred, and then Sean. And then it made its way to me because I subscribed to Sean's newsletter. And anyway, but here we are. So in that sense, it was much more organic than, which is the way we like things to work. No, no, no, absolutely. And I'm so glad that you said that. And shout out to my devoted colleague, Fred Nikolaus, who actually wrote a piece, a wonderful piece, A Shot in the Dark, way back in 2019.

51:53Such a good piece about what did happen to nighttime photography and the role that Paige Renz played. And then Martha Stewart's kind of brightened things up. And that was an interesting discussion as well. But also so interesting to hear from the photographers of what some of the challenges were. and as we've talked about in the Paige Rents days, she acted as though the photographers sort of, oh, they decided they wanted to shoot at night and so we just went along with that. We find that very hard to believe, those that have any understanding of that administration, to use your word, Sean, but I don't think people were too freewheeling in the Paige Rents years, but I do think that she had enormous respect and regard for the photographers who worked with her.

52:39And they were incredibly talented photographers. But as we alluded to earlier, over the years, in part because, and designers hate when this issue comes up, intandescent light bulbs were forced to go away. Interior lighting, as Douglas Friedman pointed out in one of his comments to your piece, Sean, that suddenly interior lighting changed a great deal. Lighting temperatures were all over the place. And actually you turned on five lamps and they might all have different kinds of bulbs and temperatures. So that issue certainly came up. But what else came up, Sean, after you put this piece out? Well, if we're talking about lighting, one of the other pieces of the shift is just technological advancements.

53:27So somewhere in the early 2000s in the business shifted from film to digital. What ended up happening was, sadly, a lot of those great photographers didn't make the shift change. And I think designers became very excited by the level of perfectionism that you can create. So there's an aspect of shooting on film where you don't have live feed at a shoot. Shadows really help to get a better product, I think, when you can't lean into retouching in the same way. So there's like that aspect of it. And imagine when everyone discovered like Facetune, you know what I mean? Like they started tuning their faces.

54:10Wasn't that a fun time? That wasn't that a fun time. And then they got over it. They realized whatever they realized. And I think that happened too. So it was this idea of this new technology and people just being so excited to use it. And it turned into this like game of perfectionism and the ability to achieve a certain type of perfectionism. And that was like perfectionism in the sense of like no shadows and everything being even. And I think that the pendulum has swung though, and we realized that we can get perfect and perfect isn't as exciting. Well, and just to dovetail off of that a little bit, I mean, when people started looking at these same images that have been created using digital photography on a backlit screen on social media, I mean, now you really were really getting like very white and perfect and sort of bright.

55:02And, you know, there's just no shadow whatsoever, you know, and I think I think you're exactly right that the combo of the two of those things, again, many, many years in now, now our eye may want to see may crave even seeing something else. Yeah, for sure. I love that point. I'm going to add something else in that. I don't think it's going to sound controversial, but it might be. Oh, bring it, Sean. Well, because I don't mean anything about it other than this is my observation. I don't know, but I would imagine that speaking to Paige Renz and her respect for the photographer as the artist, I would imagine there was maybe less collaboration.

55:41And we're living in this world where everybody wants to collaborate. And I don't believe that that's right. at all times. And I know sometimes when I'm doing a project and I understand that the designer has a idea of the room and you absolutely need to respect that and absorb that. But ultimately, do you know that saying like a camel is a horse designed by committee? Totally. It can't be everything for everyone. And I've had designers who say, well, that fabric isn't that color. And sure, sure, it's not that color. But what are you trying to achieve by getting it accurate? So I also think that we had a time that where we respected people in their roles in a way that maybe we I don't know if the words respect, but we have gotten so obsessed with collaboration.

56:34And I think that sometimes the work suffers from this need to be everyone is everything, everyone has to contribute, and they have to contribute in this like democratic way. To your point, it's like where, who's the artist of the photograph? You know, who's the sort of creator of the photograph and who gets to have the kind of ultimate say on that? I mean, magazines are certainly guilty of it. With the dawn of digital photography, now you can send every single image back to the, you know, home office and we can be sitting here behind a little screen, very Wizard of Oz style, saying like, no, no, move that one inch over, you know, whatever.

57:11And that is a quick way to kill any sort of spontaneity on a photo set, which obviously light plays such a role in spontaneity. And that's where the magic happens. 100. And I'm big on the D all of the above when it comes to shooting a project, because truthfully, when you're shooting a product, when an interior designer is having their project shot, it's actually the product in a way. You know, it's not just the shadow. It is it is a substance because how many people are actually going to experience that house? And knowing that it makes sense to maybe shoot a project more than once. And of course, we're getting into like so many other variables that we don't need to get into.

57:53But yes, variables aside, shoot a project during the day. Shoot it in the evening if it calls for that. Shoot it for documentation where you will have the fabric at the exact color because maybe there's a reason why you need that. But this idea of cramming it all in, it won't work. What kind of film are we making? Is it a comedy? Is it a drama? What is it? Yeah, no, that's so true. That's so true. Yeah. Well, it's so interesting to Sean picking up on this whole committee aspect of photo shoots today and and how elaborate they've become. Rumor has it that back in the Page Rants days, a there certainly weren't stylists around and editors weren't usually allowed there on the shoot either.

58:35And so there were far fewer people and they weren't shooting for Instagram, which is what the whole industry has contorted itself into making possible for that image to look as great as it does on your phone. And one wonders if nighttime photography lends itself very well to what those images look like there, which is another aspect of this. But we're living in this golden age of the stylists and the huge role that stylists have played. And many would say, photography has gotten a lot better because of the stylists. But also, yes, it does change some of the look and feel. And many designers often feel very sensitive about how much gets changed in a project.

59:18When a stylist comes in and shoots it for a publication, you're often getting a very different feel. And back in the day, it was how it was laid out. And that was what they came and shot for the most part. So for sure. But that's right. Yes. And that's why we don't work with. I mean, of course, we have people that we love working with, but we have lots of options. And And so during the period of time where you're developing the brand or refreshing the brand, some of the team building is part of it. And, you know, you try to find the photographer that's going to bring out what's natural and authentic to that design brand.

59:52And the same with the stylist. And that's what's so great. And I actually wrote another piece about stylists, my last piece. And I actually, I believe that we, and maybe still you could attest to this, like we're at a deficit of stylists. It's a great point. I mean, I ask people all the time, can you name 10 stylists? Yeah. Because you can name, you know, you can name all the big ones. Yeah. But how many people can rattle off? I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Because I think we've learned so much about what a stylist can do and bring. And there is so much that is better. And to your earlier point, Sean, and then I want to come back to Steele and talk about this issue.

1:00:26But to your point, we've also learned so much more about how the photography can work in service of the designer, the project, all of it. We weren't as conscious of shooting for books and magazines and Instagram and all of that. And nowadays, those Kips Bay rooms that become the ads for the shade store and all of that, like that's just changed the way we think. Honestly, for the better, we've become so much more sophisticated about the power of what these images can do. But still, let's come back to other elements of putting this magazine together with this broad idea of the of the evening magic.

1:01:08So there were there were some fabric shoots that were done with this in mind. And so tell me about it. Yeah, the fabric. I'm glad you mentioned the fabric one, because I just love it. Thank you so much. Right before we hopped on, I was, you know, kind of refreshing my memory. So funny how that works. We're not working on our March issue or six months ahead. you know we've so moved on oh yeah we're we're we're full spring now um but the the fabric story was a great one um our two style and market editors who know the textile industry you know backwards and forwards have this you know took inspiration from the evening sort of focus and thought okay first of all let's select textiles with metallic threads and that sort of thing so that there's you know some sort of shimmer in um evening light and then second of all why not take inspiration from, you know, fashion and couture and sort of style the textiles themselves, have them made into clothing pieces and style them on mannequins and dress forms and that sort of thing.

1:02:05And then third of all, we do, that's the kind of story that we shoot in studio here in Birmingham with our staff photographer. She is excellent, but we really, you know, allowed her a chance to flex because normally what I would say she's excellent at doing is natural light in studio. And this time we were like, okay, remember how our studio has no natural light, but you make it seem like it does. This time we want you to go the opposite direction. And she did that beautifully as well. But yeah, I think your average reader may or may not understand this when they glance at that story. But I mean, that required us to find a different seamstress because the seamstress that we usually use to make a bunch of pillows or you know, window treatments from the textiles that we call in and, you know, focus on for stories.

1:02:51It doesn't have quite the same skill set. So, you know, again, our style and market editors had to get super resourceful and find other craftspeople and artisans to work with on this issue. But that was part of the fun of it. Another funny thing from that story, many of us bought the items in a prop sale where you realize like, oh gosh, it's becoming expensive to work at, branda um and i bought one of the gowns that i and i wore it to um the birmingham antiques at the gardens uh event and back in october so that was really fun too because i was sort of like a walking uh billboard for the issue i love that yeah it was really fun well so so tell me steel because i know we're running out of time tell me what the feedback has been what what what people have had to say, both internally and externally.

1:03:39What have you heard? I mean, it's been great. I think, you know, so much positive feedback. Again, I think we tapped into a little bit of nostalgia. And so either for readers who, you know, had seen this 30 plus years ago, but hadn't seen it recently, there's been a lot of fun sort of trip down memory lane or nostalgia for them. And then for our, you know, prized younger audience that we do actually have, There's a novelty to it. So when you've got like novelty and nostalgia, you know you've sort of hit on something pretty fun. The one piece of negative feedback that we have run into, which, oh my God, I have another pun, has overshadowed the issue theme just a little bit.

1:04:23I have to be honest and admit my mistakes here. Tell me. But you'll notice this issue is our November, December issue, which is normally our holiday issue. Yes. And that's coming. It's just that the timing of our issues shifted a little bit this year. And so anyway, long story long, that is what normally would have been a January, February issue. We're just calling it holiday issue. It comes out first week in December. But I did get quite a few emails from folks saying, this is nice and all, but I'm confused. Why did you eschew holiday in favor of evening. And they said, evening would have been great in your winter issue.

1:05:02We wanted holiday in November, December. So that was interesting. Did people feel this was an attack on Christmas? They did. Is that really? Christmas. I don't know if you've noticed, but yeah, they felt it was an attack on Christmas. Because a lot of people feel it's under attack. And here you are just giving support. Okay. Right. I know. Just arming those folks. We may go back to our regularly scheduled cadence next year. Let's just put it that way. Okay. Lesson learned. But did it, okay, but if you moved it to a different issue, was there a reason to do something like this again? Yes, that has influenced many an art meeting when we shoot a house.

1:05:40You know, instead, now we're saying, you know, wait, actually, that particular room or that particular space would be better shot at dusk. I mean, we are starting to work that into any old photo shoot, not just like, oh, let's do a whole issue about it. But rather, when we're going to shoot a house, we always have an art meeting. And we are now sort of working in and looking for opportunities to shoot something not at like that perfect magic daylight that we'd all become accustomed to. And that's been really exciting. Well, that's great. Yeah. Right. And so for you, Sean, a little bit of a feeling of mission accomplished here, do you feel?

1:06:17Yeah. No, I love it. That's the whole point of this. So thank you so much, Steele. Oh, my gosh. No, thank you. And thanks to Fred. I missed the article in 2019. I've since read it. But yes. Yeah. No, I thank you all. Well, and I'm thrilled when something like this comes up and there's a whole community discussion around it. And listen, it sounds like there were a lot of challenges with shooting at night and a lot of reasons why people moved on. And I get it. But now, as you say, still a little bit of nostalgia, but also some learnings for the next generation. about, right? Sounds like a win-win to me.

1:06:54And so I hope that we will have more of these things come up. We'll be reading Sean's letter and seeing what else. Yes, please. The Culture Creative Papers. I do it from a place of love, and I hope you can feel that. In addition to the Business of Home podcast and the Thursday show, Sean's newsletter is one of my must-reads. I mean, it is so good. For those of you who are not subscribed, you absolutely should. It always makes me think, and it is true, Sean, that you can tell you're writing it from a place of love and just pure passion for this industry and this culture. And there are always good ideas.

1:07:30We're starting to talk about 2027 ideas soon, so I'll be mining your newsletter for ideas. Well, and Sean, I hope that we can talk about some other things that you've written about as well, because you've really been driving home a few points recently that I want to get into further with you. So I don't know if all of them will lead to a whole issue of Veranda being dedicated to it. But this has been great. And I thank you both so much for making this conversation possible. I'm thrilled to get to talk with you both. Likewise. This was so fun. Thank you. So fun.

1:08:08And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? Yeah, normally we like to focus on kind of fun stuff here at the end of the show, but I just wanted to bring up a little bit of news that was kind of too bad. We reported earlier this week that Hearst has laid off some of its editorial team across House Beautiful and Elle Decor, which is, you know, really too bad. Of course, I'm an editor and writer, so I, you know, really feel for those kinds of people.

1:08:34But these are very talented people. I'm sure they'll land on their feet, but I was just sort of sad to see that, you know, including, you know, a really talented editor, Ingrid Abramovich, who's been at Elle Decor, the executive editor for a very long time. I'm an extremely talented person. Gave me my start in writing for Elle Decor. So just shouts to her and the other editors. And I'm sure they'll win on their feet. But, you know, sign of the times. Very, very crazy time for media. And just shouts to them. Yeah, absolutely. Ingrid is so well thought of. And, you know, kudos to Sean Santiago, who turned the whole experience for him into a music video that he dropped.

1:09:09And I think he's got a new career waiting for him. He's got a new single coming out on Spotify. Sean Santiago is good at content. There's no question about that. But I mean, it's just too bad. And like I said, I'm sure they'll be fine, but just that kind of sign of the times. And so if you're listening to this, and you want to hire some great editors, those are two names right off the bat. To be sure. First up, I want to talk about First Dibs, which in addition to the meteoric rise in the price of the stock, it's more than doubled off of its recent lows. And I think it was up about 10 percent today while we've been talking.

1:09:39But interestingly, we talked about an AI pricing tool that the company had been using on last week's show. And apparently they're dialing that effort back and getting some more feedback from customers. I think our own Caroline Burke is going to be writing about it later this week. So perhaps we will talk about it more in another show, but we look forward to reading Caroline's piece in the meantime on what's happening there. I also wanted to talk about a couple of dates that are coming up where I'll be talking with a couple of big name designers at the New York School of Interior Design. I do a program called Dialogues on Design at NYCID.

1:10:15And December 4th, I will be sitting down with Andre Malone. Very much looking forward to that. And the week after that, December 11th, Nicole Hollis is kindly flying in from San Francisco to sit down with me at NYCID. So definitely come and come see us for those conversations at the New York School of Interior Design. It's one of my favorite spaces to be in, and we get to have a lot of students in the audience, which is always fun as I try and convince them to become residential designers. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com.

1:10:54If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castagneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.