The Thursday Show: Will your next client come from ChatGPT? Plus: Legendary industry analyst Jerry Epperson on the state of the furniture business

24:24I don't want them in my new home. How can I get rid of them? You know, of course, the simplest thing is just put them up on first dibs, you know, just sell them that way. But where's the fun in that? You know, this way she gets to have a cool thing that engages her followers. It's a marketing opportunity. You know, we covered it at a business home because, of course, people want to know what Athena Calderon is up to. So I think it's another way of just, you know, don't just have like a sale of a couple things you got lying around. Turn it into an event. And I think Athena is great at that and another good example of maximizing everything that you do from all angles.

24:53And another element in all of this, and Athena is so good at this, and Summer is too, is the whole storytelling aspect of it. And why squander an opportunity to tell a story and go back to what you knew was a favorite space, this townhouse in Brooklyn? Let's reconnect with that while we're simultaneously telling the story about, but wait, wait till you see Tribeca and what we're doing there. And I think it was so interesting in the conversation with Steline at El Decor talking about the fact that we want designers to come to us with a story pitch that tells us what's behind this project. Tell me the story.

25:33It's not just show me some great images. And so I think in holding up Summer and holding up Athena Calderon, I think part of what we're doing is suggesting that these are two women who do a great job of sort of creating that story, creating some suspense around what they're doing and interest. And I think it's something that designers have even more opportunity to do. So a lot there. We've got to move on, though, because you know what, Fred? We're going to talk about dog rooms. That's right. For El Decor this week, Rachel Silva wrote about dog rooms, a growing trend among homeowners who are building out luxury spaces for their pets.

26:14Have you had a luxury space for your pets? I know you used to have a dog, right? And I miss having a dog. So this story pulls at my heartstrings a bit because I surrendered a former home of mine completely to my dog and allowed him to destroy a great part of it. And I never regretted it once, Fred. Yeah, I lost a red velvet sofa to my to my beagle mix. Definitely, definitely lost a few pieces along the way. Yeah. So this was a fun story. I mean, I think it's like we anecdotally know that, you know, pet owners love to spend on their pets. But when you see these numbers, you know, it's in 2023, Americans spent more than one hundred and forty seven billion dollars on their pets.

26:52I mean, that is a staggering number. And I mean, I think like, you know, not all of that is going to, you know, six thousand dollar dog beds, but some of it is. And I think that like interior designers are sort of taking advantage of that and working with people who love pets and, you know, giving them everything that their pets hearts desire. I mean, I, a former boss of mine had like a little like pet nook, a pet alcove that was very luxuriously appointed and very fun. So I've experienced this in my own life. My own dog, sadly, after we had the two young kids, there was less money, time and attention for a luxury dog room.

27:26But she has the run of the place. Well, and I think that that is the case with so many people when you talk about, I think they laugh and say, ha, dog room, what do you mean? The whole place is the dog room. I honestly think that one of the big drivers behind performance fabrics in this country, Fred, sure, they like to pretend it's about spilling the red wine and they say the children. but really what they mean is we want our dogs to be able to come up on the sofa. We want our dogs to be able to go wherever the heck they want to. And so I think that's actually been a huge driver behind performance fabrics.

28:02No, I think you're absolutely right. And it's funny, it doesn't really come up that much in the design media, but I do think pets do drive a lot of design decisions in a real way. I mean, just a couple weeks ago, I was at a party and I met an interior designer. We were talking about shopping for a sofa, and I was talking about how difficult it is to choose the color of the fabric. And she was like, you know, here's my hack. Same color as the dog's fur and you'll be happy. And I think that like, you know, that's a very real consideration. And I think like designers who know how to work with people who have pets have a little bit of a leg up when they're talking to those clients.

28:34That's a niche. That's a nicheification that you can do if, you know, for the benefit of our AI overlords. If you're great at working with pets, let the chat bots know. because I think clients really do appreciate that, you know, more than you might think. I feel like we've interviewed like, what, five or six? Who was it that said, if you're nice to my goats, you've got me as a designer? Who was that? I think Ed Hollander, when I was recently in his office, who had multiple dog beds under his desk, he talked about the fact that it was a very dog-friendly environment. And if clients come in and have any kind of problem with the dogs, then really they're quite hesitant about working with them.

29:10But I feel like we've spoken to so many people who use dogs and animals in general as just a barometer of whether or not this is a good person. This is bringing me back to Kim Skodra because she talked about how the number one thing when she's hiring a new person to work in her firm is kindness more than anything. And you asked her, I think, oh, it was a good question. What's the test for that? Are you nice? How do you answer that question or how do you ask that question? Here's a hack. Bring in a baby goat. Have the prospective job candidate interact with a baby goat. And I think that'll tell you everything you need to know.

29:46I think it does. And I wish more people would bring in a baby goat. Maybe we should have a baby goat in the new business of home office. I don't know. We'll have to see. I know that designers, I was trying to think back to some great Kipps Bay rooms and all the sort of dog references. I remember Sheila Bridges had a room. I think it was back in 2019. It was called actually Salon de Chien. and it was all this great artwork. And she had actually, there was a powder room just off the side of the room and you were drawn in by all this dog art. But little did you know that she actually had a motion sensor that would be activated when you would cross the threshold and a dog would start barking.

30:24And it was great. And it took a lot of people by surprise. But I think there's been a lot of references. In the new Wow House, the team from Sims Hilditch created this wonderful boot room as they call it in Britain, a mud room. But there is a whole room that is dedicated to a little dog spa. There's a lovely Delft tiled little shower for the dog. And there was under the counter, a bed and some bowls that were built in. And so I think a lot of designers are quite keen to try and find fun ways to take care of your dog. I think we should stop talking about this because my dog is listening right now.

31:02And I think she's getting extremely jealous of all these amenities. She's saying, what have you done for me lately? Yeah. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a look at Wayfair's retail expansion and what one designer learned from hiring an HR consultant. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

31:26We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Lalloy. For over 20 years, Lalloy has been driven by strong foundations, a belief in beauty, a commitment to collaboration, and the quiet conviction that things made well and with purpose have the power to provide comfort for generations. From product designs until the moment a rug arrives at your door, at Lalloy, we're all woven together. Learn more at lalloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com. And follow at Lalloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok.

32:09And we're back. I'm joined now by longtime industry analyst and consultant, Jerry Epperson. Jerry, thank you so much for joining me. I'm flattered at the invitation. Well, I'm delighted to have you here. We've got so much to talk about. First of all, let's tell people who the heck you are and what you've been doing all these years. Well, for the last roughly 55 years, I've been studying the furniture and mattress industries. I grew up in a small furniture manufacturing town at Southside, Virginia. And when I got out of graduate school, I went to work for a regional brokerage house that back then, 1971, the furniture stocks were hot as a pistol.

32:54It was all we baby boomers starting out homes, getting married, having kids. And we were the hottest thing on Wall Street there. And there were a dozen or so public furniture companies. And I got to know them well. Some of them I knew basically through my father who worked on the railroad. And I used to run through their towns and drop off cars of coal or boxcars at their factories. And that helped me a little bit in getting to know the industry. So I got to have a good career in the investment community. And then my two good friends started a business in 1991. And that's now been successful for 34 years.

33:39And I just resigned there because I'm approaching 80. And I want to do what I want to do for the rest of my years. And so I'm working on a couple of big projects. My finding early in my career was that the furniture industry didn't have a lot of really good statistics. And so I started putting together information, statistics, and I'd had a newsletter since 1974 that went out and talked about these statistics. And in my opinion, what was really going on, not just what some people, especially the public companies, wanted you to think. And the last three years in particular for furniture have been really tough.

34:31The consumer, after buying a lot of furniture with their free government money in 2020 and 2021, went sort of dead on us. And we've really been suffering. And so I just want people to look forward and recognize that there's a whole new younger generation out there that's going to replace we baby boomers. And it's going to be a lot of good news. We just got to get past where we are right now. Well, so it's interesting that you say that because we've talked about and our colleague Warren Schulberg wrote a column about you sounding the alarm about the furniture industry and the several years in a row that the industry has been in a slump.

35:22I wonder when you feel that good news that you've just described is coming. When can we look forward to that, Jerry? I still have hopes for the fourth quarter of this year. Okay. But we need to get the interest rates to go our way and to have those interest rates promote the housing sector. Housing's got problems in addition to not great interest rates. We still have not enough land out there that's being broken up for new freestanding housing construction. We still have got people in the home construction business that are building homes that aren't fulfilling where the need is. Our need is for single-family, freestanding, affordable homes, young people starting out.

36:14uh dennis i my wife and i uh first home was built during world war ii and this would have been about 1971 when i just got out of graduate school in our first home we paid 14 ,900 for stop it the payment was less than a hundred dollars okay now i don't care how you adjust that to today young people don't have that kind of opportunity open to them and we sold that house at a 10 or 11 000 profit so slightly over uh a year later and that gave us more than enough down payment to go into a house that did last us 10 years. Yeah, which is just how it's supposed to work, right? So you're supposed to buy that starter home and then turn it over and move on to the next home.

37:15And that's what's been so challenging in the current environment with prices as high as they are. You could not be more right. We sold each of our homes that we bought over the years at a price substantially larger than we paid for them, giving us more than enough to make a down payment on the next home. And we progressed right up until our last home before we moved into our condo. We were in for 31 years, and we made a good bit of money off of that. And then when we moved to a much smaller condo, it was a good exercise for us. And that's what's facing a lot of people in my generation right now.

38:05I'm one of the older baby boomers, and all of us have been at homes for a long time. And the idea of leaving that home is a real shock. And one of the first things, I hate to break the news to you, but fellow baby boomers, your children don't want your furniture and precious collectibles. They've got their own. And the young people today are, generally speaking, they've had better incomes. They certainly have better educations, unlike any generation's ever had before. But I'm telling you, the young people today have got the opportunity to go out there in the marketplace, work for someone else, or, as I've learned, work for yourself.

38:54back in the early days when we were doing a lot of mergers and acquisitions and financings with Asian companies one of the really really smart gentlemen that I got to work with who started one of the most successful Asian furniture manufacturers told me one day he said Jerry you'll never get paid what you're worth working for someone else and the more I thought about it the more I realized that that was true. And so my two partners and I, both of them, we all started our company in 1991 and we timed it well. It's been, it was 34 years of great success. And we were very, very blessed to be in an industry that was growing and consolidating.

39:45And we took advantage of it and have done very well. We're a little teeny fish in a great big pond, but we were able to go out there and compete with much, much, much bigger brokerage houses because we knew the furniture industry. And if I may be blunt, very few of them ever did. Well, exactly. Very few of them ever did, and therefore didn't see all of the sweeping changes that would come to the furniture industry and how so much of the industry moved abroad, as you were just referring to, and all of the big conglomerates that you talked about in the early part of the conversation, they all went away.

40:32By and large, almost all of them. I can still remember visiting with Sperry and Hutchison and Mahasko and just all these paper companies, all these big paper companies had forest holdings, And they thought the forest holdings would give them an advantage in the furniture industry. But furniture is made out of hardwoods for the most part. And most of the paper companies had bought up pine and softwood forests. Even back then, that was a big something to misplace. But they did. And I can remember sitting down with a board member coming back from the West Coast. as a board member of one of the largest paper companies.

41:17And they had just announced they were getting out of the furniture industry. They'd been in it for less than 10 years. And I asked the gentleman, I said, forgive me for being so abrupt, but y 'all just got in the furniture. Why are you getting out? And he said, oh, there are lots of good reasons I could show you slide after slide after slide That's the reason we're not in the right position or we're not situated properly or this, that, or the other. He said, but the truth is once all the top people in the company had bought the furniture they wanted for their homes, they started looking at the numbers.

41:56That's being pretty honest when you get right down to it. And a lot of those famous, famous companies I grew up with that dominated this industry don't exist anymore. They were acquired and the acquirers didn't know what to do with them. And so I look back and again, story after story of smart people, but not interpreting the inevitability of the global economy. Well, and I'm curious your thoughts, Jerry. I mean, the recent tariff announcements, which in part seem to be based on this notion of trying to bring a lot of this manufacturing back to the U.S., whether you think that's a good idea or not.

42:47It certainly seems to be in response to the fact that so much of this manufacturing, as no one knows better than you, has moved to Vietnam, to Cambodia, Indonesia, and of course China. And I wonder what your sense is of whether it's realistic to think that a lot of that industry will return to the U.S., if that would be a good thing, if that's a realistic thing. What's your sense? Unrealistic would probably be the most accurate description. Dennis, there were a lot of people who were furniture industry observers who, as our business migrated overseas, that said that it was our fault for not reinvesting in the business.

43:38That our manufacturers got greedy and took that money out of those businesses and let competitors come in and take the business from us. And that's not exactly true. Our government did a good deal of pushing our industries out of the United States. If I may use wood furniture as just a good example, wood furniture, we've got a huge advantage because of our natural lumber supplies here that we have, and we've built our factories where they can take advantage of that. But it's a dirty industry. What we spray on it, getting rid of some of the other materials, didn't make for a pretty picture. whereas the factories that I walked through in 1981, 82, 83 in Singapore and Thailand and Taiwan, those countries were just glad to have jobs for their workforce and they were finding ways of making wood furniture for the U.S.

44:46market. And one of the things that made it work for them was that they didn't have much in the way of lumber. And their number one wood that they were using was rubber wood. These are trees that are grown to get the sap and make rubber tires. But once those trees were 30, 35 years old, they'd grown all they were going to grow. And they used to just chop them down and burn them because if the tree got to the point where the sap didn't flow out of the tree freely, it had no economic value anymore. So they just tear them down and throw them away. And the furniture industry, we began to get product bought over to the United States made out of rubberwood.

45:35And you could make it look like a lot of our preferred lumber here in the U.S. And so that's what got the industry started. Today, somewhere between 85 % and 90 % of all wood furniture for the home that's sold in the United States is imported. Now, if I can take one step sideways and mention the other big side of the furniture industry is upholstered furniture. Right. We've got two completely separate upholstery businesses in the United States. And one of them is we take a really good selling style and put a good fabric of poultry on it. And we sell a ton of it. And so there are factories out there that are making 300 to 3 ,000 identical sofas.

46:35and because they're making them in such quantity, they can make them at a fantastic price. Well, that goes into the bigger furniture stores. But because they're made in such quantities and because the price is so good and because the logistics to get it from there to here have gotten so extremely efficient, we're able to give the American consumer a price that I don't think anyone could have dreamed of 25 years ago. Meanwhile, back at the farm, if you will, a lot of people don't want a sofa that's been mass produced and that others out there in town are going to have the exact same sofa. And there's still a market for a lot of Americans who want that sofa that is just for them and not for anybody else.

47:31And that's still somewhere around 45 % of all the sofas that are sold in the United States. So that 45%, by and large, is still made in the U.S. We've still got a very healthy U.S. upholstery business. And long production runs go primarily overseas, Although there are some very competitive factories here in the U.S. as well. So we've got two different businesses there. And the custom upholstery can compete all day long with the mass-produced upholstery because they're going after such a completely different demographic. Well, and interestingly, we've seen that higher end, that custom upholstery market be so well served by the growth of the interior designer client.

48:26And I'm so curious to talk to you, you having been to so many high point markets, I believe 100 high point markets, if I recall. And we've been talking so much in recent years about the growth of the interior designer coming to that market. I think these past few markets, it's been something like 60 % of the attendees have been interior designers. and that's a major shift that we've really only seen in the past few years or the past decades, certainly. And I wonder what you make of that to the point of the industry and the impact that it has. Well, first of all, I'm a huge fan of the designers, and I don't think they get nearly enough credit for the services that they offer.

49:18we baby boomers and again one time there were 77 million of us not quite that many right now but one time we were a real force to be dealt with but we didn't grow up in homes where our parents hired outside decorators that just didn't happen except for the the wealthiest 20 percent of the American population. And remember the way style works. Style kind of begins at one end and becomes increasingly popular, and then it goes to a broader mix, broader mix, broader mix of prices. And then eventually it ends up being so popular that it's made in such huge quantities that it can be made affordably for just about anyone.

50:09But your designer community fulfills a job that They see things in the marketplace that there's no reason for many consumers to see. One of the criticisms I have of our largest furniture stores is they tend to be very redundant. There'll be certain styles that are popular and that have become such a good deal maybe overseas that they're picked up over and over and over again. So if you're in a good-sized city, you go into the five or six largest furniture stores in town, you're probably going to be unimpressed with the redundancy of how you can see the exact same-looking sofa in five or six of those stores.

51:04And it's because it's made because it's a popular style, because it's so well-priced. It's such a high value. And that's what those stores that buy sofas in the hundreds, for example, are buying and bringing over here and giving the American consumer such a great deal. Now, those items are fantastic. And most of them, the average American would have a very difficult time being able to tell the difference between the handmade sofa made individually for you and no one else might like what you chose. Whereas the sofa that's sitting on the retail floor down the street might be that they have that one in a blue.

51:55And they've got, if you go up and say, boy, I'd like to have that sofa, but I really need it in a green. And the retailer is probably going to tell you, well, I'm sorry, we don't have it in green, but we've got another 25 of them in the warehouse in blue. So that's what you run into sometimes. Well, so, I mean, are you optimistic about the furniture industry in the U.S.? And do you feel that the challenging business conditions that we've faced for the past few years, because as you pointed out earlier, demand peaked during COVID and everyone sort of had purchased so much of the furniture that they needed and were waiting to come out of that period.

52:36Do you think innovation is part of what takes us out of that slump? There's no question in my mind that we're going to see things that most Americans don't know they want until they see them. I'll use the power recliners and power motion, as we call them in the industry. We used to have manual recliners. And I can remember Dad having one of ours. It was in a red vinyl, and it had a big old handle on the side. And Dad loved that chair. He just loved that chair. And I better not be sitting at it when he got home from work. These chairs changed everything. And when we put power to them, this took off and drove the industry to new levels of growth throughout the second half of the 90s and throughout the 2000s.

53:30And don't look now, but we're in the wave right now of outdoor furniture receiving this same attention and more power outdoor furniture. that's got built-in heaters and other features that's going to make outdoor furniture be able to have the same kind of customization, same kind of comfort levels and options available on indoor furniture now. Well, that's so interesting. I mean, I wonder, so, I mean, as you said earlier, we've got to get rates moving in the right direction. The Fed chairman has been reluctant to cut rates even though Europe and other countries continue with their rate cuts because he's concerned about the inflationary pressures that tariffs might bring.

54:17We're waiting with bated breath to see if this inflation really shows up in a meaningful way or if rates finally can be dialed back a little bit. Do you think that's going to have a huge impact on the market's recovery? Yes, I do. But I look back on the decade of the 90s and even the decade between 2000 and 2010, 2020, and we got so spoiled with rates that were low that a lot of us who purchased homes back with double digit mortgage rates. look at those rates and say, my goodness, why didn't everybody run out and lock them in when we could? We had single digit mortgage rates for well over a decade.

55:07And some people took advantage, but not many, but they, you know, if you happen to be one of those who was a year or two late getting those good rates, you know, you paid for it. And that's worth, we're paying for it now with that particular universe of people didn't get the same value out of buying homes and flipping home from home to home. The truth was it wasn't just how much our homes rose in price in value. It was also how much we had repaid the mortgage. And so you took that total amount of the appreciation of the value of the home and how much we'd repaid on that mortgage. And then when you look at what you got to repay on that mortgage to get out of house number one so you can buy house number two, it's what made it all possible.

55:59It's what made it all so profitable and very easy on the American consumer and why our mobility stayed so high. Most people don't remember it. But in 71 and 72, when the baby boomers were just beginning to emerge out as a major factor, well, those people got out and really hit it right on the button in terms of being able to buy homes. And in 1971 and 72, we bought more than 2 million new homes each of those years. This year, last year, we're not building a million homes. We need to get back to building those homes because that really fueled our entire industry. It would fuel our industry again if we had the rates to allow it.

56:50And if some other things worked in our favor as well. The environmental regulations we have right now are a lot tougher on home building than I think most people realize. And the people that make those home building supplies have those exact same issues. and then your appliances and everything for the kitchen and your furnaces and your air conditioners and all those, not many of those are made in the U.S. anymore either. So those issues come about. It's a real, real complex issue, and it isn't just furniture. Furniture is the most basic unit. And when we have the opportunity and when we have the capital, we've seen just our explosive.

57:34the mattress and furniture industries can be. Look at 2020 and 2021. You give us a few thousand dollars of discretionary money, and then let us show you where we're going to spend it. And we just saw home furnishings explode to levels no one anticipated because we finally had the capital to be able to decorate our homes and show our homes off the way we've always wanted. That was an exciting, exciting period for us. Well, exactly. And that's why so many people are eager for that time to return. And I don't know if it can ever really return at that level. But I wonder, we've seen so many retailers go away in recent years and a lot of the big family businesses, often businesses that have been around for decades and many generations, closed up during the past few years.

58:37Some of the big players like RH and R House, I think, took some of the blame for why family businesses were losing out. What's your sense of that? And what's your sense of these big stores that have become the predominant players? Has that been a good thing? Well, in that we were able to give the American consumer products that they probably wouldn't have been able to afford. Yes, I think it was very good and very good for a lot of us. Selling furniture is very capital intensive. If you buy 300 sofas and put them in a warehouse, that's a lot of money to tie up until you sell them all. We've got some people that are very, very successful in selling furniture and mattresses.

59:24But we don't have a whole lot of them who are making good money doing it. It's so expensive to sell. It's not as easy as it looks. So I'm still a big fan of brick-and-mortar retailers and thinking they're going to come back and do well in the long run. But there's no question there's a need for what the e-commerce business has created for all of us. I'm guilty of just finding it so easy to go to Amazon myself and get whatever it is I need today because I don't want to make a trip to a store for just one item. All that's changed so much. And plus, to somebody my age, think about those of us who came along.

1:00:12And we didn't have computers. I resisted the computer as long as I could. but nowadays, like everybody else, I've learned to use it and seen how it can benefit my life. A lot of the statistics and all we keep, we couldn't have kept. We couldn't have generated them to begin with, and then we couldn't keep up with them and calculate how they've changed if we didn't have our computers to help us with that. Yeah, no question, and the role that technology has played has certainly been transformational. Well, there's so much more that I want to talk with you about in the history of the industry. I could talk to you all day about it, but I'm thrilled to get to talk to you, though, and I thank you so much for making the time.

1:00:56Thank you so much, sir.

1:01:01And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred? You thought you made it to the end of the show without the T word getting dropped, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to say the word tariff because the consumer price index just dropped this morning. And a lot of people were speculating that we might start to see the impact of tariffs on the economy and that inflation would go up radically. It did not. It stayed at a very muted amount of growth. And I even dialed in on the furniture numbers, which actually slightly went down.

1:01:37So furniture inflation is not out of control. Now, the big question is, is this a sign that people aren't raising their prices as much as we think? Or is this a little bit more about the fact that people had a lot of inventory, you know, banked in the first quarter of the year? And that we're really going to see the price hike start to hit later on in the summer? We'll see. But at the very least, this is slightly good news. So I'm going to take it. That was one little thing I saw. The other thing is a little more random. Do you remember Matt Sanders, Dennis, the designer, the interior designer who, designer to the stars.

1:02:07I do indeed. former guest on the show who had the company Consort that we sort of profiled their trials and tribulations a long time ago RIP Consort, well Matt Sanders apparently has a one man show it seems like it might be NC-17 so I don't want to recommend this to listeners of all ages but he's got like a show that appears to be kind of interesting and salacious, I wonder if there's details around his design business but it's called Rugburn and I think he's selling tickets right now to both of the LA and Edinburgh Fringe Festival at the moment. So if you're curious about an NC-17 lightly burlesque-y show from a celebrity interior designer, check out Rugburn.

1:02:48I remember when he said, I'm high point famous, okay? Yeah. Well, that's all about to change. Exactly. Now he's going to gain even greater fame. Well, we wish him well. What caught your eye this week, Dennis? A couple of things caught my eye. I won an account that I just love following. The account is Mary Orton. Many designers I know follow this account already. This was a woman that I discovered. She did a fabulous and quite humorous tour of the Kips Bay Show House, I want to say a couple of years ago. And she does a lot of sort of home-related stories. She recently did her primary bedroom and created quite a fun, real detailing.

1:03:31detailing. It's all done up in Schumacher fabric, and there's actually quite a bit of Casabranca in there, and even some Chadwick furniture that she gave a shout-out to. But one of the things that I love about her coverage is not just the flair that she has with design, but the humor and the intelligence that she brings to all of it. They're quite fun, and she's got a great sense of humor, and so she is definitely worth a follow and checking out, and it's just a fun space. And speaking of humor, the other thing that I wanted to give a shout out to was the middle brow, not the high brow, Fred, or the low brow, but the middle brow podcast, which is a podcast that's co-hosted by a friend of the show, Dan Rosen.

1:04:12And this week he had on David Michon from the Forescale Substack. And they actually had sort of an interesting conversation about design criticism. White Boucle came up in the conversation and even the dupes came up for a while. So they hit on some of the hot Thursday show topics. It's always fun to hear David Bichon talk about all of this because he's quite cynical about a lot of this. Delightfully cynical, yeah. How are you the one bringing up Substack for the first time in the show? Well, you know, it popped up in my feed and I thought, oh my goodness, look at this. So I know. Listen, I too get to be a fan of a lot of different Substacks, Fred.

1:04:56You've turned me on to many of them, and I thank you for that. But I'm all for people listening to both Dan Rosen and to David Michon, so I'm glad those all came together. One of the things we forgot to mention in the show is that what's coming up for next week, RH's earnings. That's right. So, sadly, they continue to schedule them right after our show records because they know that drives us crazy. but we will be talking about that. You'll be away, but I'll be with Caitlin next week, hopefully breaking down the RH earnings in great detail. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening.

1:05:37If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Cacciñeda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.