The Thursday Show: Williams-Sonoma keeps on winning. Plus: A summer camp for aspiring designers

19:38Fred Nicolaus:So anyway, if the Internet is listening, I'm not a show for love sack, just a journalist covering freight and logistics and the home business. I apologize. Let's all hopefully move on with our lives. Well, and amazing how well it all fit in with our whole freight conversation over the month of August. And that was why it was sort of so interesting. And I love how you put all of that together. But let's move on and talk about BOH's print magazine. Our own Aidan Taylor wrote a story profiling Atlanta designer Teresa Butler, who gave away a free room makeover on Instagram. Much more friendly Instagram story in this case.

20:12And really saw it transform her business.

20:15Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, this was such a great feel-good story by Aidan. I love this. She did this makeover that was, she gave it away and it was in honor of her husband, who was a very charitable guy who passed away. And it was like her, you know, her followers jumped from 8 ,000 to 30 ,000. She was getting DMs from Erykah Badu. Like it really made a big difference in her business. And I was like, yeah, like, this is great. Like every designer should give away their services. But like, you know, as we know, there is this kind of interesting tension there. And it's funny, you know, you put up this article on your Instagram and you're asking people like, hey, have you done this?

20:45Fred Nicolaus:And there was, there was crickets. I don't know what your reaction to that was. Well, and I was sort of surprised about it. I mean, a few designers reached out to me and said, the funny thing is, I've thought about doing something like this and giving something away. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought, oh, I'll just be bitter as the process goes along. And why did I ever do this? And why am I giving away my services in this way? We used to talk about in perhaps this naive way of, oh, you know, a great way for you to get known in the neighborhood is to maybe at your kid's school, maybe give away your services or or offer some kind of outreach in a way that might be a raffle prize win, a few hours of your service.

21:24And then designers shifted their feelings around all of that and said, no, and this is why I charge and I never want people to perceive that my services should ever be free. And so there's a there's a very understandable tension there. But this story is a feel good story. And it does make you pause and think maybe there is something here.

21:46Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, well, it kind of gets at this sort of fundamental challenge if you're a designer, right? Like the very first project that most people do with their own home, right? And that's your calling card. That's how that has launched so many people's careers, rightfully so. But if you do that, and you're still, you know, having a hard time getting clients, or you're struggling to get your name out there, it's really hard because you need a client to do the work that you do to show off your skills. And, you know, they can be hard to come by when you're just getting started. And so people try and figure out ways to either give away their services or do it cheaply.

22:12Fred Nicolaus:I mean, on some level, everyone's done this, right? Even if you don't want to, every designer has given away a version of their services very early on. But the problem is that I think what you were just saying is that I think there is also this sense among the general public that a lot of designers probably feel like, okay, well, people don't really value my services. They think I should be giving away my advice for free. So I don't even want to go down that road because it opens up a can of worms. So there is this weird tension there where it's obviously a totally reasonable marketing play. It worked really well for this designer, Teresa Butler.

22:45Fred Nicolaus:I think it can work really well for other people. But there's just this danger that makes people not want to not want to go down that road. I would say if you do do it, make a ton of content on Instagram because I think that's but I honestly, I sincerely think that's like the way to make it work. If you're just giving away like a project to a rando on Facebook, like who cares? But if you get Erykah Badu's attention, that makes it worthwhile. Well, I think to that point, if you're going to do it, the marketing component of it is very important. Yes. And I think that that did make a big difference.

23:15I do also think, though, and our guest that's coming up in a little bit on the show talks a lot about the give back. And I do think that part of what made this story so lovely was the charitable aspect of it and the tribute that she was paying to her husband. And I think there's an opportunity for us to see more of that in the industry. Even Laura Albert at Williams-Sonoma brought up on the earnings call some of the things that they do to raise money for charity through some product collaborations. And I feel like we've gotten away from that conversation a little bit of late because we're all so angry about the price of sofas.

23:51But I think there's an opportunity to get back to that. And that's part of what made this success story so heartwarming.

23:58Fred Nicolaus:I know. And I think there's nothing wrong with, you know, treating it like a marketing thing. I mean, I feel like sometimes people are like cagey about, well, if I'm doing it for charity, I shouldn't be, you know, I should just be doing it out of the pureness of my own heart. And, but it's like, it should work for everyone. You know, it should deliver a beautiful room. It should deliver some money or a service for charity. You should get something out of it too. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think we should be open about it. And I think if you can make it work and, you know, not have the entire internet coming to your door thinking that you give away your services, if you can thread that and you can You should do it because I think it's a lovely thing to do and a great way to get your name out there.

24:32Yeah, I agree. And I'd love to hear from designers about how they've thought about all of this. It was a great piece. Well done, Aidan. And definitely check out the BOH print magazine. All right. That's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including advice from Sean Lowe on AI assistance and a roundup of all the latest industry hires. We'll be back in a minute. But first, a quick break.

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25:47Learn more online by visiting Lutron.com slash luxury.

25:58And we're back. I'm joined now by interior designer Rainy Richardson. Rainy, welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much for having me, Dennis. I am delighted to have you and so glad we're having this conversation. I'm eager to tell people both about sort of your whole career and your many opinions about what an interior designer needs to be doing and should be doing, which we'll get to. Listen, I don't know that that is all that important, but it's just what I've learned around my blog. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I think you've learned quite a bit and I have enjoyed learning more about what you've learned.

26:35So we're going to talk about that. But I want to talk about Project Design Week and an article that we wrote for Business of Home. My colleague, Caroline Biggs, actually came and got to spend some time with you and your team in Houston. And I want to hear all about it. So let's talk Project Design Week. Tell people what it is and how it got started. First of all, I want to thank you for having me on the show. I'm delighted to be with the Dennis Scully. And oh, so very grateful that the Caroline Biggs came to Houston for a couple of days to hang out with us. Can we just talk about how much we love her for two seconds?

27:11Why don't we devote the whole show to that? Honestly, we could. Perfect. Let's do that. But Project Design Week is a week that we set aside every year in our studio. to invite, actually, we have applicants apply, any students that are juniors or rising seniors in high school all the way through maybe a four-year degree in college and are interested in pursuing a career in interior design or something adjacent. And so we open up our studio to show them the real, real of what we do, not HGTV and not Instagram, TikTok, all the things, but the real behind the scenes of what we do as a firm from the day-to-day meetings, sourcing, pricing, all of the math that we use.

28:02Everybody is always surprised by that and usually disappointed. How we interact with all of the different professions that are adjacent to us that help us carry out what's needed and the big projects that we complete and tell them sort of our journey as a firm that allows us to do what we do. So we take them all over the place. We take them to trade show rooms. We take them to our projects. We have them meet with clients, architects, just anything that you can imagine for that week. But it is free of charge. And we do that because it is really our firm's give back to the community, to society, to what we do at large.

28:44And so we don't charge for that week. And tell me what all of this was born out of. And you just talked about giving back. And I know that that's important to you. So tell me about that. It is important. I really thought back to my days in high school. I happened to go to a magnet school. It was called the High School for Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice. And I thought I was going to pursue a career in law. And so it was a great fit for me as a high school student. In my senior year, I got to work at Baker and Botts Law Firm, which is a very large, highly respected firm, and got to literally every day for three to four hours every afternoon work there.

29:28I was paid, really a lot of copying, but I got to be in the environment and understood what daily life in a law firm would actually look like because I was there. And having that experience of being able to be in that environment taught me so much. And so when we started talking about how could our firm give back in a meaningful way, we sort of started kicking around this idea of what if we had students who were interested in pursuing this career actually come in and hang out with us for a week and we could really drill down and give them an experience that would either do one of two things, really, Dennis.

30:07It's just as valuable to spend a week with us and go, you know, I don't want to do that at all. Oh, I've seen this interior design thing. No, thank you. No, thank you. And that's just as valuable, right, as going, I want to pursue this career field or something in the space. That's incredibly invaluable. So that's how Project Design Week was born. And who tends to be applying to this? Oh, gosh. Each year has sort of taken on its own character, to be quite honest with you. This year we had a junior in high school, a rising senior in high school, and then all of the rest were either somewhere in their college career or recently graduated from college.

30:53We had two graduates who were going on to pursue master's degrees in either interior design fields or architecture. So this year was really, really incredible. We had some very high achieving kiddos and, and interestingly enough, we actually invited one of them to come back and be our assistant this fall. And so she started last week and she is a gem and we feel so lucky to have her. So it's kind of the way that we choose our interns and our assistants. And then another student that's already graduated with her four-year degree is talking to a rep in our industry that we just adore who is looking for an assistant.

31:38And it might work out that she ends up just falling right into that role. So a very highly respected furniture brand that we work with. Let's tell people a little bit about your background, your career, and the design firm that you've built from which all of this great experience and wisdom comes from. Gosh, Dennis, can you just follow me around on a daily basis? I'll just be the one introducing you to people from now on. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Rah, rah. So I started my career 26 years ago, and I started it while I was actually a full-time teacher. I taught at the junior high where all three of my girls went through.

32:23And so I think they loved it and hated it equally for obvious reasons, having mom on your junior high campus. But the cool thing about school, right, is junior high was out at 230. So I always had a design client. I designed homes at Christmas. I had clients during the summer. and my business just sort of took off to the point where after my third daughter moved on to high school, I just went full-time in my career. And I sort of found myself doing a lot of designing of remodels. And that was exciting and wonderful. But the problem was, is that clients might hire a general contractor that wasn't awesome, maybe took off with her money or maybe used it through your products or decided that they were the designer.

33:23You know how that works, right? I do. And so I started, I had this crazy idea that I was going to GC my own projects. And so I did that. And lo and behold, my business really blew up to the point where I did not have time to bill my clients. But here's the thing. I didn't care about that. Who cared about the money coming in? No, no. Didn't care. I really didn't. I was doing what I love. But it turns out that my husband cared very much. Okay. He was like, so yeah, he took a look around at his career and he was like, you know, this is great, but that girl needs some help. And so he ended up leaving his career and joining the firm.

34:08And ever since he has GC'd our projects and it has been amazing. So it's small. It's going to stay small because it's more boutique, very hands-on. We have it just the way we want it. So yeah, always tightening our processes though. Well, that's why I say I knew that there was a lot to learn and you're very thoughtful about how you run your firm and how you think about the whole process. And I'm wondering how the lessons that you learned about running your business became the curriculum of sorts for Project Design Week and what you've decided is most important to try and teach young people about what this industry is really like.

34:55I do keep sort of a running log of wisdom that I've learned along the way. And usually the wisdom was learned through bumps and bruises, right? That's how a lot of us learn the little nuggets of wisdom that we gather along the way. So during Project Design Week, not only do we take them to our countertop fabricators or to our favorite textile vendor or to our appliance and lighting showrooms, but I also sort of take some time with them one-on-one and or in a group, but with me really at the helm and talk through some of these things. And they're the things that have been most impactful that I think about a lot.

35:38I think I mentioned to you when we talked a week ago or so that one of the things that I say so many times during project design week, I think I make them so sick of hearing it is I tell them, you know, when somebody says, what do you think is the secret to your success? I will tell them, I answer my phone. I talk on the phone. That's something that our team does, right? So it's one of those nuggets of wisdom that you just go, if you leave here with only one thing, you answer your phone. And why do you tell them that's so important? And how do they react when you tell them that that turns out to be so crucial?

36:23I think when I first say it at the beginning of the week, they think, haha, you're so funny or yeah, yeah. But I really talk through it as I talk about working with luxury clients and how luxury clients have a different level of expectation, I think, than maybe just a client who is looking for you to spruce up their place, right? If you're going to step into the fully luxury space, you have to understand how those clients work. And one of the things that we have found to be true in our firm is that they're very busy people. And so when they have something they want to talk to you about and your phone's ringing, it's so much easier to pick up the phone and talk to them and to let them download.

37:09And then they can go on about their day, there is something that they respect very much about that. Now, listen, if it is Friday afternoon at seven o 'clock, probably not answering. They can leave a message. If we are in a very important meeting, I'm not going to necessarily step away to take that phone call, but I might shoot a text and say, I just saw that you called. I'll call you back in 15 minutes or I'm in a meeting until two, can I call you at 2.15? I don't ask them to text me. So many times when you call somebody, they'll say, I can't talk, can you text me? If they wanted to text me, they would have already texted me.

37:49They wanna talk to me about something. And it could be that maybe there's a little frustration around something and a one minute phone call fixes everything. So, but I think by the end of the week, they understand I'm super serious about picking up the phone. And there's something about the latest generations, Dennis. They want to send emails or text messages. And there's something about that voice, that interpersonal connection that just goes a long way. And you've talked to me in the past about how much you pay attention when a client comes to the office and you see how they're responding and interacting.

38:25And I think that that can reveal so much as can hearing how somebody sounds on the phone, their level of concern, right? Or even just even just the kind of question that they're asking you can reveal so much about what might be going on in their heads about where they are in the process. Exactly. And I think the other part of that is this, when we started out working with this level of client, really high, high-end remodel, for example, and I'm talking a million dollar plus, we would talk to them briefly on the phone about their project, and then we would go on a site visit. And that would be our first face-to-face interaction with them.

39:08And then I learned that it was incredibly important for them to first come to our studio, to meet our whole team, to see the level of what we have to offer here to see deliverables on a like project, to see a finished project that was at the same stage theirs was with the same goals. And then it can go one of two ways. They really understand we're a pretty high-end luxury design firm and they either feel comfortable with that and they're like, this is exactly what we're looking for. Or they might go, you know what, this is kind of bring in an Uzi to maybe a paint gun fight. And this is, we've shot a little high here.

39:51We need to, we need to keep looking. We can also refer them to other people in our industry that we love and adore who really are in their space that they're looking for. But we learned to not go to the site first, but to have them come to our studio first and meet the entire team, even if the entire team will not be interacting with them. So that's something we found works well for us. Yeah. Interesting. Coming back to Project Design Week, one of the things that I hear regularly from designers is, oh, I wish they taught this in design school. And then it's fill in the blank, the great many things that people think are often not taught or not given enough time in design school or elsewhere.

40:37and they often relate to business components. And you were talking about math earlier and all of that. But what comes up for you along those lines that you want to be sure you therefore incorporate into Project Design Week? Client interfacing. Client interfacing is massive, just incredibly, incredibly important. and teaching students to really listen to the clients and what it is they're asking for and what their goals and aspirations are, even when they might not. They will tell you. We talk a lot about different projects and what the requests were and how we heard them and how we circled back and incorporated those things.

41:29And interestingly enough, the client might not even see those things until they're walking through their finished home on the reveal. Recently, we finished a project and it came up that one of the homeowners was an Eagle Scout, right? And so if somebody tells you that in their late 30s, early 40s, I mean, it has some meaning, right? If they're still bringing that up, I think it was just a tiny little comment, right? And I just tucked that away. So at the install, I came across his Eagle Scout badge and also the certificate that said he was an Eagle Scout. And so this is where you got to have really great relationships with your vendors.

42:15I ran down the street to our framing resource and I was like, listen, I know I'm asking for a lot, but can you please frame these in a really rad way? And can I pick them up tomorrow morning? Because the installer was going to be there too. the art hanging the next morning. Oh, wow. Sure, we've got you. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, so that little nugget that during the two-year process with that client and building their custom home and furnishing it, that came around. And do you know that is still one of the most meaningful things? Of course it is. Because they didn't expect it, but it was important and it hangs proudly on his study wall.

42:55So client interfacing, listening to clients, even in between the lines is really important. And so on the last day of Project Design Week, we took our students to a project that we recently finished. And the homeowners happened to be on vacation on the Jersey Shore, but they Zoomed in. They did a Zoom call with us. And right there in their living room, the students got to ask them all sorts of questions. And no question was off limits. and they asked some great ones. How fantastic. Like what? Like what did they want to ask? That's so interesting. Well, they asked, you know, how did you pick your interior designer?

43:34How did you know that Rainey's team was it? They asked if there was ever a time during the build that they were really unhappy. They asked if there was a time that they regretted making the decision to build their custom home. Asked if there was anything that they would have done differently. I mean, those are some, those are some good questions. Those are some big questions. And then right after that call, we had the project manager, the boots on the ground with that home builder show up and he asked sort of the, or he answered the technical questions for them. So it was one of the favorite things that we did that week for sure.

44:12And it was a culmination of a lot. And, and so tell me about the, the wrap up process. So the end of the week, everyone's sort of taken all of this in. How do you wrap it all up and say goodbye and send these people on their way with all that they've learned and taken in from you in that time? Yeah, it's a little sad, right? I'm sure. I'm sure it's an emotional scene. Like the last day of school. Well, we make sure that they have all of our personal cell phone numbers on our team. Everyone's gracious to do that. So many of them are still in their education phase or they're starting out on their career paths.

44:50And, you know, sometimes you just need to ask somebody a question and where are those people? We can be those people and we're willing to. Or if they're working on projects and they need samples, we're happy to help them with that. If they need letters of recommendation, we always tell them we're ready to do that. So we make sure they understand that we're a resource there as well. We always give a parting gift. So this year we gave one of my dear friends, Benjamin Johnston, wrote an amazing interiors book. And so we gave them a copy of Ben's book and a scale ruler, and we tied it all in ribbons that are our branding colors and hugged them and did photos and sent them on their merry way.

45:31But that's how we ended up. And then I always like to leave this one nugget with them. This is sort of something that I keep in mind a lot in my life. But there is a book that was written by Joyce Heatherly. It's called Balcony People. and so the premise is is that every human interaction that you have someone in your life is either a basement person or a balcony person and you can judge those very easily by how you feel right after that and so you should strive to surround yourself with people in your life and that includes your career that are balcony people and those are people that just make you feel better about being alive.

46:16And then you should strive to be that for other people as well. And so I left them with that. I think that's incredibly important. But I wonder to that point, and I appreciate you raising that, with all of the different things that you've learned about what it really takes to be a successful interior designer, what has been the most challenging aspect of all of that for you to learn and to grow better at in all of this? The truth is, is that it is always making sure that you put all of your previous experience aside and you look at each new client as a new day, a new experience. Just because you are doing a home for two executives that work from home with three kids, and you just finished a home for two executives that work from home with three kids.

47:15To remember that we are starting fresh and new, and that is exciting. And to not bring anything that you think you know to that project as far as what you're giving that family on the daily experience or for the daily experience in their home. I'm constantly reminding myself about that. And that might sound strange. You might go, of course, it's a new family. It's a new, but even how the mudroom functions or how the laundry room functions or their path that they take from the garage to the powder bath. I mean, all kinds of things. And each family is so unique. And that's the most exciting thing about what we do.

48:00And also a challenge to do sort of that archaeological dig to find out everything you need to know about that family. I think the takeaway or the hardest thing is the leaving. You've been with the family for two to three years and you get attached, right? You just do. And it's funny because they'll say things along the way. Well, you know, you'll be sitting in this backyard having a glass of wine with us. And I will one time. And that is to celebrate the finishing of that house. Right. But there is this separating time, you know, and it's, it's hard for us. It's hard for them. But you know, what we've learned, Dennis, is about, I don't know, four or five years later, we hear from him again.

48:47And it's time either for a vacation home, or they're going to add on to this house, or they want to redo a room. It's always something. And so we are so lucky to have such a wonderful base of repeat clients. So we just had one dip back into our lives again that we just love so much. And that always makes us happy, makes our heart happy. No, no. Great, great lessons. What can I do to help Project Design Week get more attention, get more awareness? How can I help? Interestingly, we have had some amazing, amazing brands reach out to us this year more than ever to say, listen, next year we want to be involved.

49:33And Kathy at Chattuck reached out and she said that they would actually like to fly in a team and talk about the furniture side of things on the manufacturing side. And Benjamin Moore reached out and they want to be involved. And so I would just say amazing brands that are out there, if you would like to get involved, please reach out. And then if you are an interior designer or you know an interior designer that would be interested in starting their own project design week, we are more than happy to share sort of the outline of what we do and how we do it. the biggest compliment to us would be if there were project design weeks that popped up all over the country and we put a hand out to lift those students who are looking at what can seem like a very daunting industry to break into and really reach down and give them a lift.

50:30That would be, that would tickle me. Well, good. And I hope that people will hear this and take you up on that very kind offer. And I hope that next year we hear about all sorts of project design weeks popping up all over the place. Nothing would make me happier as well because it seems like an amazing program. And I'm so excited to get to talk with you about it. And I've learned so much in speaking with you. So I'm grateful for that as well. Thank you. I have enjoyed this more than you know. You are a delight and look so forward to talking to you again in the future.

51:10And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?

51:18Fred Nicolaus:The color recession caught my eye. I feel like we were talking about this a few weeks ago about how the Atlantic is declaring a color recession. And now we have proof positive that that is the case from Fast Company, quoting this thing called the European Correspondent, which did a study of IKEA sofa sales over the decades. And they did this kind of amazing like color chart just showing the slow beige shift. You know, it was all these greens and purples in the 60s. And over time, it just gets, it's like that little saturation knob gets turned all the way to zero. And it's just a great, you know, little graphic that shows, you know, something that we all anecdotally understand, which is that furniture, especially upholstery has gotten a lot less colorful over the years.

51:58Fred Nicolaus:So, you know, making a point that we all know, but in a creative and interesting way. So we'll include it in the show notes. Did you see that one, Dennis? I did. And I just I hate feeling like the like the reinforcement is coming for the color recession in the data. It's coming. Well, I think I think the shift is coming. We've talked about it. And all our predictions are always right. So, yeah, what got your head this week? Well, we continue to follow the ongoing drama at Ethan Allen very closely. There was an announcement from Ethan Allen, as we knew there would be a response that, hey, guess what?

52:31We're going to put out a special dividend, which I should say, in fairness to Ethan Allen, they pretty much do every August. But it's actually a much more sizable special dividend than they would normally do. So they announced a$3 per share dividend, or about$76 million they're going to pay out in September. Is this in response to the activist investor Doug Bergeron coming in and trying to remove the entire board of directors and perhaps the CEO as well? People on the sidelines can speculate, but it's not a surprising move when a company is under attack to remind shareholders how generous the company has been to them.

53:12And oh, by the way, here's another$3 per share, a nice$6 or$7 million of which I think actually goes to the CEO himself.

53:20Fred Nicolaus:Well, what about Doug Bergeron? He owns 5 % of the company. He got a paycheck too. And maybe he feels better now, Fred. I don't know. Do you think he's going to be happy with just the$3 share dividend? Something tells me he won't be, but this is a drama worth following, and we certainly will be. But this was the latest salvo in the ongoing drama. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com.

53:55This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.

54:09Thank you.