Thomas Pheasant's guide to a long, happy design career

29:55His name was Victor Shargai. He's a lovely, lovely person. And he had a design firm here that he did very high-end residential traditional interiors in Washington. And I worked for him for three years. And we weren't on the same page creatively, because I thought I knew a lot. And I had a more modern approach, and he was doing tradition. But he was a great businessman, and he was a great schmoozer. And I learned a lot about client designer dynamics and how to get your point, how to win a presentation. and I decided I wanted to go out on my own. And I had an opportunity to purchase a place in a not so great section of DC with very little money, was able to do a skin of my teeth renovation, but it was pretty cool, very modern.

30:52And we kind of gutted it and there's a lot of painted drywall and a black carpet because one of my heroes way back was Joe Durso who did all those New York slick, you know, that Calvin Klein apartment, you know, that I remember, or Halston, that very designer look. And so I had enough money to do the black carpet and to do the drywall. And so, and I didn't have money for furniture. I mean, it was like, I was kind of like doing what I could. And I remember getting pillows and tossing, black pillows and tossing them around and borrowing art from an art gallery. and we did photo shoot for the Washington Star, which was a leading paper at the time.

31:32And they had a home section. And of course they're, you know, like all these places, they're desperate for articles. So, you know, I was this new kid. So they said, we're going to, we want to come and photograph this. This is great. And they did put my picture, got my picture in it. And, you know, I thought, well, this is, this is going to like, the phone is ringing. Here I go. I'm off. I'm rich. And so, so the article came out. They did a really beautiful job on the article. I was very proud of it. And nothing happened. Like, I mean, when I say nothing happened, other than family and friends calling me to say, wow, nothing happened.

32:06And so, and I came to realize that here I am, I'm publishing something that really wasn't what I wanted to do. It was what I could afford to do and kind of copy somebody that I admired, but do it on a shoestring. So that's not so great. And I realize that, you know, and I tell this to young designers all the time, when you're ready to publish something, please make sure that it represents the designer inside you that you want to be. Don't publish something just because you have an opportunity, but you really don't want to do that type of work, right? I mean, it seems like such a basic thing. But when you're young and you want, I mean, any kind of - So eager to be any kind of publish, right?

32:48I mean, of course. But it all worked out. I did get over it. I did get over it. You did get discovered. And I sold that house. There you go. Just the way it was. I got a good deal for it and moved on. So that was good. And off you went on your career. And as you were saying, you went and told mom and dad you were starting your firm at a young age. And so how did work come to you? And when did the meaningful breaks happen for you? Well, you know, again, this is like all these nightmare stories. So one of the things that motivated me to go out on my own was I had the opportunity, through the design firm that I had worked for, one of Victor's clients was a great couple.

33:34They had some friends who were renovating a house on Massachusetts Avenue, a beautiful neighborhood in D.C. And they were younger, and Victor wasn't the right designer for them. So they had reached out to me. Well, I couldn't, it was clear in the office that I was in Victor's office, you weren't allowed to do side jobs or everything had to be for the firm, right? So I was in the position where if, you know, here I had this opportunity and it was either stay with Victor and lose it or try. So, and I had a friend who advised, who really pushed me over the edge to do it because he said, Tom, you don't even own a car.

34:11What are you going to, you know, go out. What's the loop? You can always go work for someone. So I said, well, okay. So anyway, I did it. So I go and I get my stationery, set myself up, and I go to my second meeting with this new client. And they said, before we get started, we just want to talk about your contract because we have family in New York who can purchase for us. So we'd like to pay you all your design fees, whatever you feel you deserve. But we're going to be purchasing all of the furnishings through our connections. So you just have to specify. Uh-oh. Well, this is where youth can kill you.

34:47This is the negative thing of youth. So I basically, I had taken the basic standard contract from the firm I was with and adapted it to term. It's the only way I knew how to work, which there was a percentage for procurement. You charge a fee, and that's part of what you earn. So I'm seriously sitting opposite this very nice person. And I look at him and I go, well, I don't work that way. Now I know that he knows this is my first project, but I don't work that way. And you know what? And again, I share this with students, the same story because, and he said, well, we're willing to pay you. You can tell us what your fees are.

35:28And I just, I couldn't process that. And I didn't have the wherewithal to at least say, well, let me get back to you. I mean, that's the perfect phrase, right? So, and he says, well, I said, I just don't work that way. And he said, well, then we're not going to be able to work together. And I got up and I left. And I remember walking out his house and my white used Datsun car was sitting outside. And sometimes it didn't start. I remember just wishing that, please start so I don't have to go in and ask him. That's embarrassing scene. Call a tow truck. But it did. But what a learning curve. And that this is where here I thought it was so ready, but I just needed a little more maturity to be able to navigate through negotiation.

36:18There's nothing wrong with negotiation. There's nothing wrong with approaching a project in a new way or listening to options. you know, but later, later, despite walking away from his first big job, just storming out of there. Right. So eventually what happened was it was, I think I, I got a, there were two clients that had been Victor's clients that were doing projects outside of DC and both of them came to me separately. And they were two families that had great connections and cared about me and believed in me and gave me these opportunities to do these, I guess, second or third homes for them outside of D.C.

37:01So that kind of started the ball rolling. And through, again, word of mouth, you know, just like in any community, you start, it starts getting picked, you get picked up by people and, you know, you invest your best and it pays off. So slowly over time, and that time And when Paige reached out to me, you know, I was doing great. I loved my work was more in the mid-Atlantic area, Washington, Virginia, Maryland. Some guests, like sort of getaway houses in Aspen and Florida. But that was kind of my world. And the thing with Paige is when I started going into AD, it just blew, you know, there were no boundaries anymore.

37:44So I became more national. and then through certain projects became internet started doing work outside of the u.s so you know it's just been kind of a very beautifully paced growth well and that's a remarkable thing i mean you mentioned the word longevity earlier and i don't know if even you would have imagined the kind of longevity that you've ended up having and here you are with all sorts of licensing collections and you've got multiple projects and i know you're working on a book which i want to talk to you about. So in this first client, you said, no, no, no, I can't work that way. If I can't do the purchasing, I can't charge my markup.

38:22Did you ultimately end up somehow changing how you charged as a result of that experience? Or where did you land with all of that? I landed, quite honestly, the basic contract that I had originally has been pretty much the framework. The only thing that's different is obviously for hospitality or for commercial projects, it doesn't work that way. So there are design fees, which are always, you know, that's painful to sort of lock yourself into a number because honestly, I don't care who you're working with. You never really know the extent of hours that you will be pulled into. And, you know, a project, you know, they come, oh, the project's going to take 18 months.

39:08Well, there's no guarantee. It could take three years, depending on what happens with that property, with, you know, with the company that you're engaging in. I've learned a lot of that through hospitality. Hospitality was something I really always wanted to do. And we've had some, we've done some work with Rosewood and some other groups that I've loved it. But it's always a lot more work and, you know, and it takes a lot longer. But, you know, it's kind of deciding what you're, what are you willing to do to get these types of opportunities, right? Are you able to compromise? And it's competitive.

39:43I mean, well, a hospitality group can come to me. I'm not the only person on their list. And they're very upfront about it. But once you establish a good relationship, that relationship can go on for a long time. And that's great, just like residential work. So in the end, you landed roughly where you began. So you charge a markup on purchasing and procurement and all of that. And hourly fees for design. And hourly fees for design. Those numbers have changed. They've gone up. Gratefully. They've gone up. Right. Yes. Right. So when did licensing come along for you? It was 2001. And I mean, I had always liked the idea, going back to my Angela Dangia dream list.

40:26Right. But I didn't have a, it wasn't a company that I felt I wanted to target. And quite honestly, I was so busy with my interiors. It was one of those things that would come into my mind like, oh, this is what I would love to do. but you just go back to your studio and you're working through your interiors. But I got a cold call from a gentleman who was representing Baker Furniture. And he was very nice. And he said that the company had been watching my growth in the magazines, the publications. They loved my classical sort of refreshed look. And that they had had a lot of success with Barbara Berry in her California cool look.

41:04and they were looking for somebody who could do something a little more traditional, but with a modern feel. And they just thought that I was the perfect candidate. And they wanted me to come to Chicago to meet with them. And I said, it caught me off guard. But again, you know, the great negotiator. I said, well, you know what? I don't think it's right for me right now. And what I was thinking while I was talking to him was, I was doing so well and I was developing my voice. And I thought, they're going to come in. They're a big company. I'm a small design firm and I don't want to be railroaded.

41:43And I don't want to end up doing something that really isn't me. And then it's out there. And now how am I going to get back to where I want to be? So I thanked him so much and I said, well, maybe in the future, but right now, I don't think it's the right thing. So a little bit later, a few days later, a week later, I get a call from Rachel Colder, who's the Colder family owns Baker. And she was shocked. She just would not accept my answer. And so she was - She couldn't believe you had turned her down. Right. Exactly. And she was tough, but she was great too. She was wonderful. And so she said, Tom, look, we want you to come to Chicago.

42:24Just be open enough to come for one meeting and talk to us. So I reluctantly said yes, because there's no saying no to Rachel. To Rachel Guller. And so I went, I remember flying to Chicago and I remember walking into their offices and stepping into a conference room. And I thought it was going to be Rachel and maybe the gentleman who had called me and myself. But I walked in and it was this long conference room and it was filled. There were like 12, 14 people sitting at the table. And they introduced each person. And it was like, you know, the president of the company, other executives, they had some of the sales team, they had a showroom manager, they had people from the factory, they had a guy who built frames, they had two refinishers.

43:06They wanted you to meet the entire team who would be working on your exciting new collection. Right. So I was like, okay. And then so they sat me at the head at the end of the table. And they said, so okay, so I'm thinking, well, they're going to start telling me what they want me to do, like how they see me in their world. And Rachel turned to me and she goes, Tom, we're all here because we want to hear what you think we need. And that just knocked me off my chair. I mean, I thought, wow, that wasn't what I was expecting. And so we had, it was a great conversation. It was very inclusive. I mean, everybody participated.

43:37And I was really impressed with the dynamic, very different than what I expected. But I did, again, in caution, what I learned from my youthful lessons, I said, well, you know what, let me think about this. And I said, let me get back to you. And so that was kind of like met with a warm hand, like a cool handshake. But I, so I went back to my office and I contacted Rachel and I said, you know, I'd love for you to bring a few people to my studio here in DC and let's have another talk. So she, I think it was like two weeks later. And that's all I said. But when she came in, I had, we met in my conference room and I had done like, I don't know, 40 sketches, hand sketches of furniture pieces.

44:20And I posted them all around the walls. So when they came in, they're, you know, they're looking, they're not realizing this is for them. They think maybe I'm in the middle of a presentation. So I introduced them to the sketches and I said, you know what, this is how I see tradition. This is how I think we could infuse some modern ideas. And they loved the presentation. And I said at the end, I said, well, if you're willing to go this route, I'm willing to try this. They agreed. And it was, again, one of these big, for me, a learning curve. I had never been to High Point. I had never done this before.

44:57I had a strong vision, but I had no idea how you do it. So we began and I remember launching, going to High Point and launching the collection and the response was incredible. But, you know, seeing how this theater, this furniture theater works was, you know, it's like, I was like, I felt like I was kind of in the way all the time. I was always moving out of people's way because, you know, I showed up a week before market and it was like, my space was a disaster. And I'm like, what are they, what are they doing? Like, who's managing this? And they're all like, ah, this is the way it always is.

45:35Don't worry. And so I spent a whole week worrying, you know but by the end of that week when they opened for market my space was incredible and product was beautiful and you know we got a we got a lot of buzz from the different editors and it sort of set off what now will be in two years in 2027 we're going to launch my 25th anniversary collection yes which i'm very excited about so and it's going to be based on the same ideas of the first because my idea with the collection was not to do a collection every few years and wipe out the history. It was about building this collection throughout the year.

46:14So it's going to be great to go back and launch this sort of like new perspective on the same ideals, right? So I'm very excited about that. But that was great. And through Baker, I got introduced to McGuire and it's been very successful relationship both ways.

46:37We're taking a quick break to remind you about Lolloy. It's been quite a year for the design industry. That's why it's more important than ever to have partners you can trust to help you get the job done. Lolloy is known in the design community for its commitment to craft and to its trade partners. Lolloy's dedicated, personalized sales representatives are here to help for years to come. Learn more at lolloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-Y rugs dot com. And don't forget to follow at Lalloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now, back to the show.

47:18We always talk about sort of leveling people's expectations around what a licensing collection can really do for you and how much revenue you're really going to see and all of that. Did you have stars in your eyes? When it first became such a big hit, did you think, oh, my life is about to change? I've got this huge furniture collection. When I began, my mind wasn't really focused on royalty payments. I mean, I knew that was part of it. That was exciting. But you weren't really thoughtful about it. Yeah, because I had no idea. I didn't know if it was going to, you know, was it going to work out?

47:55Was this a one? And actually, if somebody said, well, you're going to be, you know, you're going to have maybe nine collections and you're going to be doing this for 25 years, that I would not have believed. That I thought, I don't think that's in my future. That doesn't sound like me. But I think one of the things when I talk to students, if I go to a university or a design school and I say to them, I said, well, you know what? You got to be really kind of thoughtful. If your goal is to make money, then you got to, like, number one, you have to think about volume. So, and see, I wasn't thinking any of these things, but I was, I lucked into it again, just like lucky path I walk.

48:39You know, they do, they have international dealerships. I mean, they're, they're, I think at the time they had a thousand distributors globally. And so they did a great volume, but those weren't things that when I was sitting doing the, I wasn't going, well, what's your volume? What's your sales? And so financially, it has been very rewarding, and that's great, great for everybody. But that's also based on the, I mean, if your designs are not successful, then you're not making money. But also, I say, if that's what you're going for, then you have to really think in terms of companies that really sell volumes of work, because your percentage is relatively low to the cost of goods, so you need multiples to make money.

49:20But then there's also the point of view of the artistic expression. If you have beautiful ideas, creative ideas, and you want to explore that and you want to go with a very boutique company or somebody who does gallery presentations, that's equally valuable. And if that's what you want, that's beautiful. You may not be selling just because of the price of goods and exposure, you're not going to sell a thousand cabinets. You might sell three or four. But what do you want out of that? Are you trying to make a statement and fulfill an artistic dream, or are you going for a kill, financial kill? It's because it's business.

50:10Ultimately, this studio that I work in is a business. And thankfully, you have become a much better negotiator. Yes. And a much better business person over the years. Right. Yes. And now you have this big opportunity to, and now Baker has new ownership. Oh, yeah. Right? New ownership, new president. Yes. A whole new team, and they just came to visit. Yeah. So, yeah, Eric Graham, who's the new president, who is, you know, I hit it off with him from the jump street. We had a talk about a focus on the Baker legacy. And I said, there's such a value in the past and the idea of taking the art of craft and exploring it more and kind of getting back to techniques and bringing in artisans to achieve something special as opposed to the trends of, kind of like these modern forms that you can buy at any price point.

51:13And does the world need another curved boucle sofa? I don't think so, right? Thank you. So it's interesting when I talk to friends who have had galleries, antique galleries for a long time, and the trends and sort of the stepping away from antiques. Well, trends are great because they introduce ideas, right? I think you take what works and you let go what doesn't, but with trends. But I think that the idea of taking that narrow focus of what's happening in interiors and furniture and opening it up again and making it an inclusive world from classical to modern to maximal to minimal to you know whatever and and i think that that there's a need in that and and so i'm very excited and we're talking to uh we're talking to some of the the artisans at baker about sort of modern forms introducing things like chinoiserie and crackle and parchment and you know all these different things to elevate the finishes and the vocabulary of the pieces so So, and maybe not doing it, you know, I'm not sharing anything that's secret because we haven't even developed it yet, but I'm having all these ideas about, you know, maybe it's not going to be you walk in and, you know, here's the living room, here's the dining room, here's the, but really thinking of it as kind of looking back at the successful work pieces of the past and then giving them a new perspective and rethinking them in a way.

52:52So, I don't know. We're still talking about that, but I'm very excited about that. I was thinking, oh, it's 227. It's only 2025, but actually it is 2026 already. And so we were here recently with his team and realizing that we really have like 14 months to design, fabricate, get it ready for shoots. It's not that long. It's not that far away. In our studio, we're really moving, I would say, we're really looking to more modern vocabularies, and we're doing a lot of modern interiors currently. So that's kind of like the headset around here. But I got a call from the State Department, and they have, for people who don't know, here in D.C., the State Department, they have a building, and it's like a 70s modern building, not far from the Lincoln Memorial.

53:47and you get off on the seventh or eighth floor, when you open the door, you think that you've been transported in time because there's these two floors, which are all detailed in 18th century English paneling and paint and the most amazing collection of American antiques I have ever seen. I had never been in. I'd heard of them, but I'd never been in. Anyway, so they were redoing the Benjamin Franklin room, which is the biggest room, which is where they, if they're having a major event, they do it there. These whole two floors were done in 1985. And other than touch-up, a lot of them just have remained the way they were.

54:26So it really needed a refresh. And so, so different from what I'm doing in my studio. And again, like Blair House, this wasn't an opportunity for Tom Pheasant to come in and design some modern pieces. Put his name on this project. Right, exactly. But so I was so intrigued with it. And so I had this idea of looking at, it was all kind of heavy red and gold. And I had this idea of lightening it up. But I looked to English architect Robert Adam, and he was an amazing architect. And just researching him was fantastic. It was worth doing the project. But I was looking, he did these amazing ceiling decorations and wall decorations that were like over the top beautiful.

55:15So my first thing was, they had this enormous rug. I mean, it's like 100 feet long or longer by 50 feet wide. so I had this I took my cues from Robert Adam and I created the design for this rug and and within the rug I punctuated it with uh symbols that reflected some of the achievements of Benjamin Franklin because of Benjamin Franklin and created a fresh look for this space so um I presented it to the committee and I everybody I won everybody over very quickly so that was great and it but it was such a great experience and you know having that opportunity to mentally get out of my studio and look at something.

55:54And it wasn't about Tom Pheasant furniture or nobody's going to go in there and see a photograph of the room and go, oh, Tom Pheasant did this. But Tom Pheasant is there. It is my perspective. And it's how I look at 18th century style and digest it and present it in a new way, which is how I describe inspiration. It's a very misused word. I say to people, if you go to an antique store and you copy a chair, you're not being inspired, you're making a copy. And that's fine. But if you see an antique chair and you walk away and there's something about that chair that really strikes a chord and you sit down and you, through your own digestion of that chair experience, you create a new form.

56:49That's inspiration. That's being inspired. And replication is replication. There's nothing wrong with it. But inspiration is kind of this like heavenly thing that if you can tap into it, it's really a brilliant resource. Was this prior to you developing a rug collection? Because that's something else that you've done with Ben Salmani. No, that's relatively new. And Ben is such a fantastic human being. and I met him decades ago in Los, we were doing a project in Los Angeles and he and his brother had this great place on Melrose carpets and I'd use them as a resource. And through the years, Ben is, you know, when we would run into each other or he would reach out to me, I would love for you to do a collection for me.

57:35And, and I would go, yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be great. And I meant it, but it was never, I don't know. It was like the timing just never clicked. And then last year he He reached out to me once again, and I just decided, you know, I got to do this. And so I said, well, you know, there's the same sort of thing. Let me put some things on paper, because his life is carpets and rugs and more. He's involved in many aspects of design, but I thought he sees everything. So it's like, again, you get down to, okay, does the world need another one of these? I mean, and that's kind of a good way when you're doing a collection is like, okay, the trick is, you know, when I'm working here creatively, if I'm designing a rug or a piece of furniture in my suit for a client, I know the place, I know the people, I know what it needs to be.

58:28so I can design a unique thing for that situation. When you're designing a collection, a commercial collection, you're designing for a broad audience, for people you don't know, for interiors you're never going to see, right? The reality is you want saleability. You know, that's why the company is engaging you. They just don't want beautiful things. They want things that are going to appeal to a big group. Okay, so now they have to appeal to a big group, but they also have to be unique enough that your voice is being raised amongst the crowd. I mean, we're getting hit up daily with new product.

59:01You go to market is twice a year. You know, it's sort of like what's new, what's next? And people, including my editor friends, you know, it's like while this happened to me when I was launching my McGuire collection in 2022, I think. And I was talking to an editor and we hadn't even gotten through my space. And she started asking me, well, so what's next? and I literally said what I said can we just get through this and you know but really but but it but that's our culture it's like you know you flip the page and it's like you know you got two seconds and you're either going to make your point or not so you know I think the the the challenge in any collection is that ability to project your voice and project it loud enough that that you're going to be heard.

59:53And that's not easy. I mean, it's not hard to create something beautiful, but it's hard to create something beautiful that has that kind of power. So that's kind of the key. So with going back to Ben, so I, you know, he's such a sweet man. And so I presented him with my ideas and it was like, okay, that's great. Let's do it. And, you know, the next thing I know I'm getting the, you know, he's, I'm picking colors and he's sending me samples and And it was a really quick turnaround time. And then last month, we did a soft opening in his gallery in New York. And the carpets are beautiful. And part of the test is would I use it in my interior?

1:00:32And so that's kind of my cutoff. If I wouldn't use it, then I'm not going to put it out there. I think that whole subject of licensing is such a big – I mean, that's like a week seminar that I would love to have with a group of peers talking about products. and development because I think it's a fascinating world. It is a fascinating world. And for many, it becomes almost a business unto itself. I think of Suzanne Kassler, right? Who just has all of this product and has a whole separate team that's working on all of that and nurturing it. And then she goes to high point and puts on the show, as you say.

1:01:12And she's great at it. And that gets also to the branding. I mean, I'm pretty in our industry as long as I've been here, but I'm the most private person. But I see people like Suzanne, who's wonderful. She's a lovely person and a wonderful designer. She is a brand. I mean, it's like she's everywhere. And that's fantastic. And that's another design choice. Like, what do you want to be if you're lucky enough to be a Suzanne Kassler? or somebody like her who does it, that's fantastic. But when I talk about longevity, it's like finding that balance that, okay, this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to do this for a long time because I love it.

1:01:56You've got to really love that. And it can be, Suzanne's going to go on forever, I hope. As long as she's enjoying it and she's balancing her life, that's what counts. So I've had so much opportunities and I've experienced so many different aspects. I've kind of found what I want for me right now. And I don't want to disappear, but I also want to be private and I want to have life outside my studio. So we all ask a lot out of our world. Well, and that's, and I know we're running out of time, but I mean, this question of longevity, because many struggle with, and often firms don't go on forever more, right?

1:02:43For lots of different reasons. Well, I think the business of design is tough, right? People don't talk about that so much, but regardless of how successful you are in the public, like with your magazine articles and licensing agreements, I think the problems that I have or the issues that I have are the same issues some independent designer who works in a relatively small world is having. And we're not going to even get into the idea of that, you know, when we do a project, we're relying on a thousand vendors to show up and deliver, you know, things that are out of our control. So I think for that, you know, for the when we talk about the actual business design, it's a full time job.

1:03:27The creative if you're lucky to spend 10 percent of your day creatively, I think you're doing really well. And that's the very challenge that so many aren't prepared for when that, right? You think you're just going to be doing so much design. Right. And that's another, you know, if I can, you know, when I advise other like young people or designers who have worked for me and gone out on their own, you know, one of the things that we talk about is the first thing and they go, I had no idea. You know, because here they're kind of sheltered a bit because they don't have the same responsibility. but you know that whole idea of um understanding what you want and and being able to juggle the business aspect but finding time for yourself creatively so when we were talking earlier about paris you know paris is my shot of adrenaline right and so with longevity i think if you're just stuck in the business you will get burnout like any business like there's a point where you're going okay i'm done but if you have a creative soul and you want to you've got to nurture that because you're the only one who will.

1:04:29Nobody's going to tell you. A client is not going to tell you, Tom, you should go away for a couple of weeks. That's not what they're interested in. But I think you have to find that a way of making time for your creative self and explore new things and push yourself. If you can do that, then you're kind of creating this incredible path. And all of the business part and dealing with the realities of getting your design out there That's just part of it. But you're kind of floating on this excitement, right? Creative excitement. And you have to find it. And so often, and I think this is more challenging today than it ever was, finding the balance of the right number of people in your studio and managing and developing your team.

1:05:16I don't know how big your studio is these days. If you found some magic number of staffers that have worked for you. So we're about 12 here now. We were up to 18 at one point. And what happened was I was saying yes to all these projects that were coming. We needed more people. But what I didn't plan was that I was dividing myself into all of the, you know, because I'm involved in every project. And you have to keep taking projects to pay for your overhead to have. So it's kind of like a hamster wheel. And there was one point, well, it was really pre-pandemic that I was like, you know, this is like burning me out.

1:06:00I mean, it's just not sustainable. So we kind of got down to a really great number. It's always tempting because, you know, sometimes projects, you know what you can take and something really wonderful will come up and you got to really think, okay, well, okay, I want to do this. What does this mean? and okay, what am I going to give up to take on this project? But those are just lessons learned. And you can explain it to somebody, but once the proof is in doing it and you kind of have to see what you're up for. But I do think the burnout idea and nurturing yourself, it doesn't matter who you are creatively, you need to find that outlet and you need to support that part of you because nobody else is going to do that.

1:06:43I know I have to let you go, but I mentioned your book earlier and I want to talk about it. I think it's coming out in 2027, but you're no doubt knee deep in working on it. At least I want to tell Charles Myers you're working on it. Well, he'll be happy to hear that. But I'm wondering, A Designer's Journey, I gather, the title? So tell me. I had a lot of success with Simply Serene, and I'm very proud of that book. So they've been after me. Rizzoli's been after me for a while about doing a Simply Serene 2. And as part of my personal growth, I said to them, well, you know, yeah, I know I could do that, but you've got so many wonderful interior design books.

1:07:23I said, I'd love to, like, I have this idea for a book called Reflection. and it's it is design based but it's using my personal photography outside in the world and how that stimulates my creative process and you know it's well originally i told him i said there's no text well that that didn't go for a bit what was the look on his face when you told him well i thought that would get me out of writing so um but that didn't that was a negotiating thing but you know uh so and we've been talking we talked about it for two years and so we decided I was going to put a couple chapters together and share it with Rizzoli.

1:07:58And, you know, I said, if you are in, I'm in. If this isn't right for you, I understand. So we had a great meeting and I shared it. And Charles was so positive and excited about the book. So it is, there are my interiors who are featured in the book, but more as this is how I got there, right? So I would say the ball, it's relatively a large book, I hope. I'm still working on it. But my due dates are coming up. And so hopefully we're aiming for either spring or fall of 2027. But again, it's sort of me sharing. I call it reflection for a lot of reasons, but it is me talking about this whole concept of feeding your creative soul and getting out of your studio.

1:08:44And I think any creative person, whether they connect to my work or not, will understand what this book is about. I wonder, and of course, I can understand why he's so eager to have you do another version, because your look, and it sounds like you feel this way even about the collection that you created for Baker, and so much of your work does seem timeless. And I don't know if because so much of it is just white interiors, and if that helps. But what have you discovered is the key to the longevity of your work that doesn't look dated? Well, it's not the white, okay? Okay. That's, you know, just real quick.

1:09:26So I remember, you know, it's like the thing with interior designers is we all get paid, you know, the even Paige Renz was, you know, she put me in this sort of like, oh, he does neutral classical with a modern touch interior. And so that was my box, really. That's really what she wanted. And like, and what was kind of beautiful about the magazine is, you know, you recognize the designers, like, you know what they do and you see it through, you know, which, you know, it's great. But, you know, there's a lot more to it than that. And, you know, we do work with color. And I'm teasing you. I know you are.

1:09:58I know you are. But I explain this constantly. I think it's my own insecurity. I don't know. But I'm more than that. I'm more than that. So, no, I think it's about, I think, you know, I think having this classical foundation and creating these spaces that are based in that classical vocabulary that are timeless, That's the timeless part. If a person collects modern art or traditional landscapes, to me, that's their personal, what they love. And I always say that our spaces should be beautiful before the first piece of furniture enters the building. The spaces should fulfill a beautiful idea, right?

1:10:41And that regardless of what color the sofa is, what the artwork is, that we are creating these incredible backgrounds that will have longevity. And I think that point of view has served me really well and it's served my clients really well. It's amazing. I posted something on Instagram a few weeks ago that was something that I had done 25 years ago. And I didn't say that. I just posted it and I got such an incredible response to the room. Everybody assumed it was new. And it was just those elements. I'm still using this perspective and these elements, these classical lessons in what I do now, whether it's modern or traditional.

1:11:22People, like when I travel, they go, oh, you got to stay in this place because it looks like you did it. Well, you know, quite honestly, that's like the last place I want to stay is somebody who does what I do. I was in Madrid for a family wedding earlier in the year. And by fortune, nobody recommended it and it was by happenstance. I stayed at this wonderful hotel, the Santo Maro. And it's this beautiful, it was once a private residence. And this Lorenzo Castillo is the designer. And he's very sort of maximalist in a way with his decoration and lots of colors and lots of details. And he's like a master at it.

1:12:02I hated leaving. It was like he was giving me, here, Tom, here's a little lesson in decoration. Not that I left Madrid and started to implement his skill, but I began to understand his perspective. And that perspective is really unique and beautiful. And it has informed some of my decisions since then. But that's again, it gets back to that getting out of my studio, but also experiencing designers. When you're looking at these magazines and you're seeing somebody whose work is so different, do you take the time to kind of like invest into understanding what are they doing? How did they come up with this?

1:12:45And, you know, it's kind of, you know, it's that time that people don't seem to have any of and that quick look. And when you think people, you know, invest years in a project and it's just a flip of a page, but there's so much that you can learn. So I try to, you know, I think traveling and going to Japan or Egypt or wherever I've been recently that was, you know, otherworldly. I don't know how it's going to inform me, but I know it is and I know it's going to come out. Right. So it's all about that nurturing. So if we see you moving towards maximalism, we'll know that this is your Madrid. No, I think it's time to lock the door.

1:13:24I don't think I'm not going to take that on. I would be very worried, frankly, if that's what I started to see. I'm honing my own voice here, but that doesn't mean that I'm not receiving instruction from some really fantastic people through their own voices. And I think that's important. As I say, there's so much more that I would love to talk to you about. I'm going to have to bring you to the New York School of Interior. Oh, I would love that. I would love that. Okay. So we'll talk in front of students one day and we'll talk more because I would love that. And But for now, thank you so much for your time.

1:14:01And it's been such an incredible pleasure to speak with you. Thank you, Dennis. Thank you so much.

1:14:09Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.

1:14:55Thank you.