Wendy Goodman leaves judgment at the door

30:14And I was sitting at a fashion show and Anna Wintour was across the aisle or the runway. and all of a sudden she pulled out of her bag this ginormous, which looked like a loaf of bread, and it was a cell phone, and then she pulled up the antenna, and I thought, oh, my God, Anna has the first cell phone. Of course she would. But it was the size of, like, you know, a big loaf of bread. Yes. Well, and I want to talk about Anna Wintour and poor Chloe, who had to do that interview with Anna sitting there and looking disapproving a little bit. Did you get that sense? I mean. You know, I think what was interesting about that interview was Anna is not a warm and fuzzy person.

30:55Never has been, never will be. And Chloe held her own so beautifully. And also Chloe, she knows who she's working with. And she knows, I mean, I think that interview was painful because of, quite frankly, Anna's body language. I mean, you know, she just wanted to say, I don't know what Anna really wanted to say to tell you the truth, but I think the differences in what I've really been interested in is the way that my bosses lead people and how they deal with power. And I've really always been, you know, some of them have been really difficult to work for because they're very tough and they're not, you know, they're not nurturing and they're not, they never approve of anything.

31:42and some of them are just wonderful and they don't necessarily give you the approval but you know that they're sort of working with you. So I think Anna is someone who, she's a very impatient person if you're not really seeing what she wants. And I think Chloe held her own beautifully and I think it's a complicated situation for her and for Anna as well because there's, again, Condé Nast is such a sort of epic, beacon in this industry, and Vogue especially. And so how do you hold the line with the tradition of what a publication is and then bringing it forward into the future? So you're always sort of playing that boundary.

32:28And it's a really tough one, honestly. And I think nobody really knows. I would imagine, maybe I'm wrong, that they really do know what's going to happen in the future and where to take this, you know? Yeah, no, I think and I'm sure I don't need to explain for our listeners because I'll bet they've all they've all seen this interview. But I'm sure Chloe Maul, who has taken over at Vogue. And there's always there has long been this succession question. Is this really Anna Wintour stepping away? And I think that many feel that that video made it clear that no, she's not stepping away anytime soon.

33:09Well, I said before the video, before when Chloe, I said to myself, I said, Anna will never step away. This is Anna's identity. It's Condé Nast's identity. It's Vogue's identity. And also Anna is just too, she does not want to step away. But what she does want is someone to help her, I think, with the content And also she's doing so many things outside of Vogue, you know, the Met Gala, for instance, and all this other stuff. So I think, you know, I didn't need that video to see what I already really felt was the situation that Anna was never stepping away from Vogue ever. Well, it's so interesting because – and I was having a conversation recently about Paige Rents and her long reign at Architectural Digest.

34:04And what a huge part of the culture Architectural Digest became as a result of her long-term role and the designers whom she elevated and the talent that the country learned about as a result. But also some of what we're writing about the AD 100 list coming into being in the early 1990s and how much that changed. Oh, how do we point out who's important and who should you be paying attention to? And lots of other lists came along as well, and they seem to have played a big role in things. Do you think that that was a pivotal time when all of those lists came into being? And do you think that Paige Renz's role is not dissimilar in a way to Anna Wintour's in the home world?

35:01Yes, I think that's a really good comparison. But note, when Paige left, she left. Paige did not sort of stick around and go, oh, I'm going to get a content officer to... She didn't start a blog when she left. No, no. She gave up the throne and she passed the torch. And her reign was incredible because it was a reign. I mean, she elevated people. But remember, she had rules and you had all of them. And one of the rules was, if you want to be in my magazine, you pay for the shoot, you pay for the flowers, you pay for everything. That's really a tough one. And I think, you know, fashion is very, very different because, you know, interiors and design and especially back when Paige was running the show, it was a slower, more gentle time in the sense of change, right?

35:56And fashion changes every 15 seconds. I mean, I honestly have no idea who the design, when I look online and I see on Instagram all these shows, I have no idea who, there's so many designers now. And it's like if I went out into the street with a leopard bikini, I'd be a designer because I just decided I was. I don't know. It's just such a the fashion world. I love. I think the invention of it and the talent is so incredible. But I have to say I can't even pretend to understand what's going on in it anymore. I just I don't. Yeah. Well, you let me know when you're going out in the in the leopard bikini.

36:38Oh, yeah. Like never. Okay, that will never happen. I look forward to that photo shoot. So we were talking earlier, Wendy, and this is related to designers and how they have to come at the world today. We were talking earlier about your early acting career and studying under Stella Adler, which I know you've shared with me in the past was challenging and she was very demanding. But there's a bit of an expectation today that designers need to become actors and performers and get in front of the camera. Their work is not enough today and that we don't want to see just these still images on Instagram.

37:26Everyone is much more fascinated and keen to see them speak to us and entertain us in some way. What do you make of all that? Well, that's so interesting. Such a good point. Because I think, again, with social media, people need to brand themselves. You know, the work isn't enough. It's like, who are you as a personality? What extra ziz do you bring to the table? And I think the person that comes to mind is Peter Marino, because when Peter started his career, I think at the same time, he was kind of starting mine. He was in a bow tie. He was in a tweed jacket. He was a preppy guy. Yes. And then I remember I convinced him.

38:11I think it was one of our special issues. I said, can we come in New York Magazine and photograph you, do a portrait of you in one of your favorite rooms? So we came. And Peter comes out in black leather pants. He had a cashmere sweater on and he had his little gorgeous dog under his arm. But I said, oh, my God, he's wearing leather pants. Are you kidding me? Something major is happening here. Because it was such a change from this preppy. But little did I know how far that character that he discovered within himself that he, you know, Peter is. a brilliant designer architect, but he's also a master sort of actor because he said publicly that this persona is a persona that belongs to him and is one of the personas.

39:07And so people are riveted, fascinated. And he understood the game way before I think anybody else and has gone to extremes with it. And I think other designers may feel, well, they're not going to go to those lengths, but they're going to talk a live Instagram and they're going to talk on a show that they've seen. So there is this added pressure to be more than just your work. Yes, and I think exactly. I think there's an expectation that you're going to let us in some way, right? Yes, right. And that you're going to have a lot more to say than simply, this is why I chose this color blue. And that is what I think is in many ways most challenging, that there is this expectation of a greater depth or some performative ability that many people just don't feel at all comfortable with.

40:11And I get it. I get it too. And also this anecdotal, like, you know, compulsion to be anecdotal and to give us the inner workings of, well, sometimes it's just they really like stripes. Sometimes they really just always wanted to live in a pink room. I mean, it's just that deep, okay? Yes, yes. You know, we don't have any sort of psychological story more than that. And I think that, you know, this can lead to, if you feel the pressure to keep inventing, I don't know, sort of stories, they may seem ridiculous at the end of the day. Because you just have to be authentic to yourself. You have to really dig down and say, this is who I am.

40:51This is what I love. And, you know, if you're really true to yourself, I think people will be interested. Because people love the stories of other people. But they really can smell out if those stories are just made up and they're ridiculous.

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42:14You seem to cover things without judgment. Despite all of the world-renowned people that you have on your Rolodex and whose homes you've been to and the travel and the experiences that you've seen, you don't say this isn't good enough. You take us often into very simple apartments and without judgment or without feeling as though this is less than in some way. Well, I think that, first of all, I'm not going to bring anything to our readers that I don't believe in. That's number one. And I'm not going to bring anything to our readers that I'm going to make fun of. And I'm doing it in a way that, you know, oh, look, this is how we don't want to live.

43:04This is a don't like we used to do in fashion magazines. but I have been criticized and of course you know the online chatter is like why would you show us that or why do you or you know you you're damned if you do you're damned if you don't if I show an apartment that actually shows people do have money it's like you get blasted if I show an apartment where it's it's more modest you can also get blasted but I remember in fashion when I used to show expensive clothes, I'd say, look, you go to a museum, you see a Picasso, you learn about artists and about the range of the work. It doesn't mean you can own a Picasso.

43:42It doesn't mean you can buy a Rembrandt. Of course you can. But to know it's there is so exciting to know about that talent. So I think it's the same in interiors. I mean, I want to bring things that will engage people. And yes, they'll have a conversation. It's like, I could never live there. Well, it's not about you living there. It's about that this person loves to live like that. And in my book, may I come in? I say, you know, one person's heaven is another person's hell. Because in the end of the day, taste and design are very subjective. It's what you like. It's what you want to live with.

44:20The colors, the patterns, the, you know, if you're a modernist, if you're not. So I don't have judgment. I only get very depressed reading comments where people are so vicious because they don't like it. And it's like, okay, I get it. But that's my mission here is I wouldn't necessarily live like this person we are featuring. But this is a really interesting person and place. And this is why it's like the way it is. That's why I wonder, we talk a lot about why there isn't design criticism, right? So architecture, plenty of critics, our good friend, the colorful art critic, who's very vocal and outspoken.

45:08Lots of worlds have critics in them. Ours doesn't in the interior world. Yeah, it's so interesting. It's really true. And I think, again, the reason is because it's so incredibly personal and subjective. I mean, if you had criticism, for instance, it's really a slippery slope. because if I'm going to be a critic and say, you know, this modernist house is cold, it's ugly. I'm going to make a judgment about that person's taste and that person's proclivity towards, you know, living in a much different way than I would live. Well, what gives me the right to do that? You know, why? What gives me the authority to say, this is really bad?

45:54It's not bad, necessarily. It is just different. And I think we're a society where people are so, well, it gets into a whole other thing, but people will not, people are very, very punishing about differences. They're punishing about, well, and they become the authority. I mean, we have so many on, everyone on social media is an authority and a critic. And those are our critics, I hate to say it. And interestingly, despite all of that, the rise of Homeworthy and the rise of, hello, Homeworthy, welcome, here's my house, and so many other home tours where, again, people feel no hesitation in often leaving scathing remarks and criticism or positive things, obviously, as well.

46:49But what do we make of that and how that has changed how we think about the coverage of the interior world? Well, it's really, it's a tough, it's a tough field because with this thing, the iPhone and social media, first of all, I think a lot of things are done for clickbait. I think that in fashion, and I could be wrong, but that's my feeling. And I think that, you know, people want to be this compulsion to be an exhibitionist. I think it is very strong because you think I have this tool and you can know about me and you can know who I am and I can be a star. I mean, I think there's a great sort of thing about Mimi.

47:34I want you to think I'm special and here's why, you know, come into my home. Often it can backfire because people are not particularly kind on social media often. And I think being authentic to yourself, staying in your lane, competing with yourself, as someone said to me the other day, that they compete with themselves, that's sort of where it's healthy. Where it's not healthy is looking over in the other lane and going, oh, I'm not that, but I want to be that. How can I be that? And then doing things that don't feel good for you to do, to be that. I mean, don't even try to be that. Be really the most and best of who you are.

48:19And I think you're right that people are getting pushed to a limit. And I think many reluctantly and are struggling with forcing themselves to create a character that they just aren't. And I just think, and this is so many designers, this just isn't their comfort zone. They don't want to be out in front. They're more than happy to be behind the scenes. And they're happy to, listen, if they create a furniture collection, they're happy to go and tell you why they designed this new chair. But that's different than, right, jumping into my kitchen and let me show you what I'm making for dinner tonight and how I love using saffron in all my cooking.

49:05and here's why. I mean, whatever it is, I just feel people are being pushed to a level. And I think we're going to see the pendulum swing the other way. And I don't know what that's going to look like or feel like. Well, I think the whole idea of privacy, I mean, it's a beautiful concept, privacy. It's someplace you can retreat to and be quiet. I think, you know, the thing about a designer is, aside from themselves, they are often, which you know very well, they often are They're in the middle of a very intense personal life of these clients. They're marriage counselors. They're psychiatrists.

49:43And often clients want the life of their designer. They want to be at those parties. They want to have what they consider a very glamorous life. And so the designers are sort of under pressure to mediate their professional life with the client. And then their personal life, which probably a lot of them just want to keep personal. But there is a push-pull there. And interestingly, on the client side, it sounds like more and more clients want you to sign an NDA and they want to be private, right? The super wealthy seem to be building elaborate security systems so you can't even see when they enter and exit their homes.

50:27And yet the expectation. Well, that's so true, but I think there's always a counter to that. Look at the Bravo Housewives series. If there's one Kelly bag, there are 40 in different colors, and we see the closets, and we see the jewels, and then they get surprised that they're robbed. I mean, it's so crazy to me, this display of wealth and possessions, because that is very much part of the hunger games of our society. But there is the NDA thing. There is the thing where, no, I can't show you this because I did sign it. But there's also the other side of it where people want you to know how rich they are and they want you to know they can buy any Kelly bag in any color.

51:19And that's sort of amazing too. It's just incredible to me. And are we in a place – we were talking recently about how interestingly during the great financial crisis, people quieted down about how acquisitive they were, right? People didn't want to appear. Right. to have wealth and people were not showing their fancy handbags as much. And now there's a feeling that we've swung the other way and people are very willing to. And lots of, to your point about influencers, there's lots of new very wealthy influencers who are showing you they're taking off in their jets and they're going here and there and letting you into that world whether you want to see all of that or not.

52:06Right. Right. and it feels like a different time. A conspicuous consumption time seems to have returned in many ways. Oh, without question. I mean, I was at a dinner the other night and a designer told me that he has a client who has a yacht, a wonderful big, big yacht, and then a follow yacht. I said, excuse me, a what? He said, a follow yacht. And I said, well, what is that? And a follow yacht is another yacht, I would imagine smaller than the big yacht, But it follows the big yacht in case of they need whatever that's on the follow yacht. But I think that we're talking about billions instead of millions, whereas we used to talk about millions.

52:50Now millions, who cares? It's billions. And how many? And the power of those billions, what they can do. And I think it's in our face all the time. You know, even if you're not on social media, it's just the chatter about wealth and about what wealth means, I think, is tragic because, you know, wealth has the power to do so many good things. And I just wish that, you know, people who did have this incredible wealth were invested in that because it would help us so much instead of, you know, showing that you have 40 ,000 Rolls Royces and 18 homes. I mean, it's just endlessly fascinating to me how people behave and what they think will make them happy and what they think will make us, you know, a successful life.

53:45Because what's so clear in our society is the power of celebrity. It is so powerful. We are all so hungry to see celebrity, to get near celebrity, to celebrate or take them down. But in that power comes so much. You could be doing so many wonderful things to help people. And I think the power of celebrity, I've seen it good and I've seen it bad from my work and just being out in the world. It's fascinating how people behave. It really is fascinating. Well, and that's why, Wendy, I wonder, I do some work with the New York School of Interior Design, and you have an honorary doctorate from the New York School of Interior Design.

54:30I do. And so I often think about the young design students coming out of school and how do we help them make heads or tails of this environment that they are entering into? It's so different today. How do we advise, counsel, guide them? What do you suggest from seeing? You've been there at the beginning of so many designers' careers and seen how they've navigated. Today, the landscape is so much more challenging. What do we tell them? Well, it's so complicated and it's so hard. I think the best advice, I was just talking to Danielle Kolding, who I'm doing a story on, one of her beautiful projects.

55:21It's fabulous. Very soon in the magazine. And I said to Danielle with the clients, the couple that she's working with, I said, so where did you start here? And she said, I always start with a walkthrough with the client, with what they have, with what they need, what they don't need, where they want to refresh. So I think that was so brilliant because, of course, you start with your client. You start with the questions. You start with listening. And for the designer to then go back and say, oh, this is so interesting. Maybe they didn't consider or know about XYZ. I can bring that to them. It might be something they'd like for this.

56:03So, I mean, it's such a complicated world designers today have to deal with. So I would start there. I find myself feeling so positive about their skill set and how useful it can be in the world. But I sense that it's going to have to be applied in a very different way than we've seen, right? Oh, yes. Because also they're dealing with clients who have, you know, they've been doing their own homework. They've been looking at a billion things, Pinterest, whatever they're doing. So, you know, there's a lot of, there are a lot of options. But the good thing is they've opted to work with a professional.

56:48So that's already a plus because they're saying, I need your help. I need you to bring to me things I may not know. I need you to help me edit. I can't. With all these choices, I just don't know. So I think they have to take their cue again from what's positive and try to chip away at what isn't positive and kind of weed it out. I wonder as we wrap up, Wendy, do you have a sense of some big change coming to people's tastes or desires? I see our friend John Edelman going to Hayworth, and I think how big a market is the contemporary furniture market today? A traditional still feels like so much of what we see in all of the big shelter publications and elsewhere.

57:42Are we ready to move on from mid-century? Heaven forbid. I don't know. No, I think, you know, I think things are really cyclical. I think everything changes and nothing changes. I think that I'm often, oh, I just did a thing for New York Magazine where I was asked about trends. And I wish I could redo it because trends are something that the market makes up to sell things. OK, that's what trends are. That's really what I feel. In case you all are confused what all that trend work is really about. Yeah. It's just to sell you stuff. It's like it pushes retail. It pushes the economy, I think, in a good way.

58:23And trends can be so beautiful. But I think that, you know, again, people have they love to have options. And I think, you know, mid-century versus classic, I think what's always the most exciting is the mix. If things are not just one thing, but you kind of, you know, you make things live together that you love, and they will make sense if you love them. And they will make sense also if they're placed in a way that they're user-friendly. You know, it's easy for people to talk to one another. It's easy for people to read a book or a paper or, you know, use their laptop on their whatever where they like to work.

59:03So, I mean, my answer is I don't see things changing that much, honestly. I think people are people. And I think, you know, I think, I think, again, they may, you know, we may hear and we may see in the press, oh, yes, now we're into florals, we're into this. Well, I think it's a marketing device, quite honestly. And I think that, you know, it's been a marketing device forever. And more power to the people that are putting that out. But there are beautiful choices in every single area, in mid-century, in classic, in totally, totally, highly modern. And I think it's really up to the person and designer to pick and choose.

59:48I completely agree. Is there anything else coming up for you? Anything else that you're working on that you want to tell us about? No. I do have a lot of things in my mind. Okay. Okay. A lot of ideas. A lot of ideas. We've got the Milan Salone coming up where I'm going to be going off with Eric Mazza, who's joined the magazine a couple of months, who is so great. And I'm so excited that we're going to be doing it together, the fair. And no, it's just, you know, more subway riding and discovering great places. Well, and I love the regular subway updates and seeing you around town. It's always fun.

1:00:28So I encourage any and all to follow Wendy Goodman. on social media. But I don't get the sense that I'm going to be seeing you making a lot of reels and performing for us anytime soon, Wendy. Oh, well, no, no, Dennis. I might be doing that. You know, we did have a series called Interior Lives that I loved doing. And we are talking about not, you know, we're talking about a version of it because I do think bringing people into the places that we feature can be so much fun. And we can do it in a way that maybe isn't, the production isn't quite as... big as it was, but it can be as intense and fun as it was.

1:01:06So don't count me out. Don't count me out, Dennis. I never count you out. Is there a place you're dying to get into that we haven't seen? Oh gosh, there's so many. There's one place I'm not going to say because I'm still working on it so hard, but yeah, we're doing another Hamptons issue for this summer, which is very exciting. And yeah, there's something I'm really going to not accept no for an answer, even if I have to, but I'm not going to. Well, I know that you are nothing if not determined. Finally, Wendy, this question that we often get asked about, what would our younger self make of all of this?

1:01:52Your younger self thought you were going in a different direction and taking a different path. Right. Right. Courses changed and things you learned about your yourself. What do you think your younger self would make of it all? And what's the advice perhaps that you would give to your younger self in thinking about all of that? Well, I think what's really so interesting is that life leads you, I mean, in my case, I'll just use myself. It led me to where I was really supposed to be. This is the career I was meant to have. This is what I love doing more than anything. And I always loved writing, and I always loved studying history of art and all that stuff.

1:02:31But I didn't understand when I was doing fashion, which I kept sort of chafing against because I thought, oh, no. But I didn't understand that if I could tell my younger self, it's okay, you're on the river, and the river's going to take you to the right spot. Because all the experiences that we have lead to the experience we're supposed to have. And if you just stay true to saying yes. I mean, I got to, I think, largely where I am because I said yes to challenges I didn't think I could do. And I think people have to have faith in if you really have a passion for something and you really have a curiosity, you will get there.

1:03:14Even if you're doing something you don't think is the right thing to get there, it is helping you get there, if that makes any sense. It does. And often one has to be pushed. Yes. Right. And you've talked about stepping outside of your comfort zone. And often that's where the next exciting, amazing thing awaits you. Well, the other thing that I really want to say is that, you know, mentors are so important. I never would have gotten to do any of the things I've done without the amazing mentors. So people cannot work in a vacuum. They need to have help and they need to have a community that they, you know, really feel part of.

1:03:56And all the mentors I've had, it's like I have been the luckiest person on earth. Well, I'm so glad that you raised that because we often talk about perhaps people aren't mentoring enough these days. And I wish everyone the opportunity of finding someone to really help them and guide them. And it doesn't mean adopting them as a big brother or big sister, but just being someone who can help them at pivotal moments so often. Absolutely. And I think, you know, like David, you know, our editor-in-chief now, his leadership is so different from anybody else I've ever worked for, but he is incredibly, you know, he's mentoring just by being.

1:04:40And I think you need to sort of go towards that person. Eric Mazza also is just an amazing person to work with and be with as an editor. I mean, you cannot do it by yourself and you need to seek out people and ask for their help. Yes. You always need help. You always need like, you know, what if I did X? What do you think of, I mean, and collaboration is so much more fun than just in your own head thinking, is this really the right thing? Is this going to work? I mean, Talking yourself out of things. In your own head, you're mostly talking yourself out of it. It's like collaboration is so much fun.

1:05:20It's really fun. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Wendy Goodman, I'm mad about you and I'm so delighted that you were able to take the time to chat with me and I thank you. Dennis, I am so honored to be with you and thank you so much for this time. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com.

1:06:00If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaus and edited by Michael Castaneda I'm Dan of Scully Thanks again for listening And I'll see you next week