What Emma Sims-Hilditch learned from Ridley Scott about running a business

29:15So that I put that first at that point in my career. I was only like 25, met John, fell in love. Captain John. Captain John. He was a soldier at the time in the British Army, in the Coldstream Guards. He was so handsome. He was guarding Buckingham Palace. In his uniform. He was guarding Buckingham Palace. I mean, come on. With his bare skin, hat on. Who wouldn't fall for Captain John? right I mean he was very hunky and he he was actually how did you actually I mean a friend a great friend of mine was a mutual friend of his and we went to Pippa Funnel who's a eventer in the horse world she's a three-day event a very famous lady now we went to this 21st birthday party of hers and um our friend Rosie introduced us at sort of midnight and it was love at first sight I know and we both our dream was to go and live in the country So we did.

30:08We picked up our belongings and said, right, we're leaving London. We're going out to live in the countryside. We both wanted to start a family. And that was the beginning of everything. Everything changed from that point. We managed to buy this fantastic, completely derelict house built in 1790. It was three workman's cottages, which had been converted into a school in the 1970s. and it still had the sitting tenant in the little side cottage who was in his 80s. And he was a salt of the earth man. He'd never left the village where we lived. He'd been to school in the village and he stayed with us as our neighbor while we converted the cottage.

30:54Everybody said to us, don't do it. You're crazy. How can you even imagine doing this building work? You know nothing about building. And John and I were just like, no, we're going to do it. Why would we not do it? We love the idea of being creative. And he was a bit of a closet. John's a closet engineer, architect. And he won't mind me saying he's a bit OCD, but that's why we are where we are. Yeah. So we set up home there, had our kids, and we both needed to start a new job. He wanted to leave the army. I wanted to earn some money and I started to learn to make beautiful curtains. And that's where my career began, on the kitchen table making curtains.

31:38And my next door neighbor happened to be quite a famous musician, pop star called Roland Orzebel from Tears for Fears. Oh my goodness, really? So that was my big break. I made all his curtains for his house in St. John's Wood. And then he asked me to do his home in a lovely rectory actually near us. And I ended up having some pretty cool clients off the back of that. Off the back of referrals from him. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me the whole curtain thing quickly because, I mean, it's such an amazing story that you're literally making curtains on the kitchen table and suddenly. I had three children and I'd learned to make these curtains.

32:20I didn't even have a workshop. I had to do it in home. We were like, we didn't have any money. It was like we needed me to earn the living while John was coming up with his ideas. So I was busy making curtains. Every time I had to feed the kids, I had to lift all the curtains off the table, wipe it down. I was making curtains from beautiful Percheron silk fabrics. You know, it was quite scary. But somehow we managed it. I didn't have too many mistakes. Did you have to take a course? Yes, I did. I did a course. Funnily enough, I did it very, you know, it's quite a basic course, Adult Education Center.

32:59It wasn't a smart course. It wasn't something like the Colfax or one of the, you know. It was just a really great foundation in how to make interlined, hand-stitched, hand-headed curtains, which is if you go to any English country house, any sort of stately home, and you look at the way the curtains are made, It is, it's an art. So this, this incredible, I'm making curtains. Suddenly I'm working for Tears for Fears. Suddenly I'm getting all these referrals from them. Yeah. Right. And suddenly you've got, you've got a client base and people want more than just curtains. And that's where it got quite, that's where I'd say I needed a partner in crime.

33:39And that was John who basically, he wasn't a business partner, but he was my, he really was my sort of, he pushed me. He encouraged me. he helped me so much and if I look back I probably would still be doing curtains today if it wasn't for him because he really believed in in me and he helped me figure out you know what is the first step you take and is it really terrifying to employ someone who can do your technical drawings for you no it's not you know of course you need to do it of course you need to get help with your bookkeeping because I'm not a bookkeeper. So it was that realization. It's that point at which you jump off the diving board and you say, I'm now going to spend some money on people to help accelerate the business.

34:26And it's that point, at what point do you do that? And a lot of people ask that question. But I feel like my business is only as good as it is because It's the people in the business that create something really special and the diversity of the team. And it's not about me. It's 100 % not about me.

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35:27and I want to talk about that more because you've got a you've got a very interesting structure to your business and how you've put it all together so is is it about 2009 when you start yes exactly yeah I mean I say I always say it's about 25 years ago but finally not 20 25 years ago but finally enough time keeps passing and so it'll be 30 years soon but yeah John set up Neptune his business it'll be 30 years next year and I was starting my curtain business at the same time but I guess Sims Hilditch made a big change about 12 years ago so I'd been working at home as you know on the kitchen table and gradually I needed to employ people and I got to a point where there were eight of us working there in the sitting room and John literally would freak out.

36:16He'd go, you know, when are they going to leave? When can we have our home back? You know, what time are you leaving the office tonight, Emma? Because everyone in the kitchen is waiting for you to cook supper. You know, it was all that kind of thing. And it was like that horrible muddy water of mixing business and home life and the challenges that brings and the stresses it can bring. And I feel like it was a natural point for me, although he did pretty much say, come on, let's get you out of here and find you somewhere to go. But I was ready for it. I had eight staff. I was really excited about the future.

36:50And I felt like I needed something of my own. So I had this realization that what people wanted and what they loved was coming home to my home to see what the clients loved was coming into our kitchen and having a cup of coffee and, you know, show them the schemes and stuff. So I had to recreate that. I couldn't go and work on a trading estate or in an office in Chippenham or Bath, the local towns. I didn't know how I was going to do it. And I didn't know how I could afford to do it either. Every day as I took my kids to school, I passed this old pub, which was actually a farm. It was an old farm building on the main road, 200 years old, grade two listed.

37:31So it was quite a historic building. It looked terrible. And the owner who was trying to sell this building had sheeted up all the windows so you couldn't see anything we went to look at it basically it was incredible I could see immediately I had this vision it was 5 ,000 square feet we bought it for I think about 300 ,000 pounds so it was a really good buy and then we got to work on designing it and it was the most amazing project because we were sort of thinking of how we could create a home in this studio which would have kitchens it would have a lovely lofty barn feel where all the team could have lunch every day it had a three acre site of gardens which we created it was nothing it was just a field but we wanted our team our staff we wanted the people working for us to feel immersed in what we live and breathe in the beauty of design and to be very creative there and we knew that your surroundings really do affect your creativity and without beauty in your surroundings and beauty in your everyday life how can you be creative for people and create these beautiful homes if you're sitting in a white box anyway so the studio now really does have it has all these different spaces so the teams have beautiful desks we have a clear desk policy.

39:00So at night, we have the George Clooney effect. Tell me more. Do you want to know what that is? Yes. So I love George Clooney. And I said to the team, I want you to think that at any point, day or night, when you're here, George could walk in the door. He might stop by. He could stop by and ask for a cup of coffee. So I want our studio to be George Clooney ready.

39:29And has he ever just stopped in for a cup of tea? Not yet. Not yet. But I am hoping. Maybe you could arrange it, Dennis. Well, I think we could talk to him. He's on Broadway right now. He's terribly busy, but he's looking for a break soon, I know. And the English countryside sounds like just the prescription for him to recover for a bit. But so that's hilarious. So basically, keep your desk nice and tidy because George Clooney might stop by at any moment and you don't want right. And we're very, very, we're very obsessed by organization and we live and breathe organization. Yes. I think it's just creating that sense of calm.

40:07And that's what people say when they walk into a Sims Hilditch home is that everything just feels calm. And I think that's because everything is organized. There's no clutter and there's no, there's a place for everything. We've thought about where our clients are going to put their car keys, you know, where they're going to hang their coats, where when the kids come home from school with all their school bags and their cricket bats and their tennis rackets, where's everything going to be stored? So to design these beautiful boot rooms and coat rooms and back of house rooms that are so important in a really functioning family life is going to de-stress the parents because they're not going to be running around at seven o 'clock in the morning saying, where's my this or where's my that?

40:52Because everyone knows where they put things. I want to talk about the building of your firm because even the name change from going from Emma Sims-Hilditch, right, to just Sims-Hilditch was a conscious decision. It was. That was made, I don't know how long ago. It was probably when we came to the White Hart, when we moved to the office address, the design studio. So, again, thanks to John, really, because he has these great ideas. you know he said look Emma I think we need to do this now now's a good time got a new address we're doing new headed paper we're doing new branding let's change the business name so it's not about me anymore and honestly it was the best decision because now I feel like Sims Hilditch stands on its own two feet most people know that I'm the creative founder of the business but we've introduced this wonderful partnership scheme.

41:54Henry is our CEO. He's at the helm. He came from a retail background, marketing and retail. He worked at Ralph Lauren, organized all sorts of amazing events like Wimbledon and things like that with Ralph. I had had my best friend who was my managing director before that. So she'd done that role for about seven years and she was ex-Burberry. So she had started to instill this sort of management structure in the business. and the org chart, we call it the org chart, I don't know, organizational chart. And, you know, having these directors and having a great sort of structure to the business. So we'd already started that.

42:31But then when Henry came in, he was able to really take that and shift things and, you know, change things and work out that actually what we needed in the studio were these, what we call the studio leads. So we've got four very senior leads in the business who are all have got incredible design credentials and backgrounds. So they are running their own little mini studio, really. And we've got four of these going on. But they're all working in the same office, really. But what's so lovely is that we have this sort of different style and aesthetics between them where some of them are slightly more contemporary or one loves color.

43:11So when a new client comes in, we can actually almost match up the client to the little mini studio and say, actually, I think James would be perfect because this is a hotel project. It's working really well. And that's thanks to Henry who has created this. And roughly staff count, head count, how many people do you have? We're kind of in the 30s up to, we've been up to sort of 38. But I think we employ a lot of wonderful ladies. It's funny how the interior design industry is full of girls in England. And then the architects are usually the men. So because we're interior design and interior architecture, we do have this kind of female presence.

43:54And a lot of them have families. We're in the country. A lot of people have moved to the countryside to start their home lives. And we love that. We love the fact that we've got many children now in the Sims-Hilditch family, many babies. I think we've produced about 15. but what's so amazing is with this partnership scheme and this we've created this an ability for our designers to stay with us forever because there's a future for them it's not like they reach that kind of ceiling of a senior designer and then where do they go from there they have to go and start their own business with us they can you know they can stay and they can become a studio lead and then a director ultimately.

44:36And that's the kind of autonomy that we wanted to create was to be able to have this partnership where the wonderful teams could feel like there was a really great sort of career path for them. So in the partnership structure, and I think you were saying there's eight partners now, it sounds like. Yes. So eventually they can develop an ownership stake in the business essentially, right? depending on their tenure. Yes, exactly. Yes, we're sort of in the early stages of that now. So they share in the profitability, which is important. They have the opportunity to really affect their own income at the end of the day.

45:19They look after the profitability of their projects. They make sure that we deliver on time, on budget. Ultimately, we're working for very important clients and very special people and their main priority is to be proud of what we end up delivering. Talking of delivery, we have Harriet, who's our superwoman, who we've talked about already. And I think a lot of design studios aren't set up in the way we are. We chose, thanks to that Ridley Scott training, I chose to divide the business into operations and design. and I felt like that was probably one of the best things we've ever done. So we employ people who are trained in finance to run budget documents because why would you ask a designer to have to fill in a thousand-line spreadsheet and keep track of deliveries and procurement when actually that's not a skill they have?

46:17Or want to have often. Or want to have. But a lot of design studios do ask their teams to do that. Tell me, first of all, what is your title or how are you referred to? I'm creative director. Okay. If ever they wanted to, they could shift me out, I guess, and I could become creative founder and maybe take another step back. But I'm very happy with my role now. And what I do in the studio is I'm able to basically oversee and review and encourage, nurture, mentor our design team. And that means I need to be free to go out and see the world because if I'm not able to do that and bring back my creative ideas to the studio, then we're never going to be fresh, new, interesting.

47:05You know, someone needs to go to the Met in New York and see the Sargent exhibition. Someone needs to go. Luckily, it's me. Someone needs to go down to the Amalfi Coast and visit the most inspiring hotels or, you know, travel across Europe. I love getting inspired by travel and I always have. Yeah, so I am currently very happy with my role. We have this, we've set up a design board, which is the other great thing that Henry introduced. So every week we have a team meeting where I am able to review all the projects in the studio and give perhaps, you know, my advice on a scheme or, you know, have a look at it from a different perspective and think about scale, as we've talked about before, proportions of furniture.

47:54I love looking at the schemes, but my team are so good at what they do. They're so creative. They kind of don't need me. I always wanted to be wanted. I always say I wanted to be wanted, not needed. I kind of feel like I've got to that place. And how does that feel for you? So many designers tell me the truth is I have trouble pulling myself away from being part of every last little design decision. That's not a problem for you. No, I was never one of those people. I was absolutely never a control freak. I don't think I'm a control freak. I mean, I'm definitely obsessed by the business and I love what I do, but I am not one of those people who has to have the last say or has to have that authority.

48:45That just isn't the way I am. And I think by being able to be to nurture this team and to be able to give responsibility to them is the best thing I could ever have done. um our our value we had our sort of value statement written years ago we wrote it together john and i and it's the same for both our businesses it's aim high do the right thing do it together and keep it real and i think keep it real means have fun yeah don't get too stressed by it all you know but we should be having fun in our lives so how can we do that at work um And I feel like we do have a lot of fun at Sim's Hill Ditch.

49:28There's a lot of laughs. So since we've described that it hasn't been challenging for you to step away from the detail, what has been challenging? Or what is still something that you're struggling with a bit that's harder for you than you might have even thought it would be? Just having enough time in the day, I think. I mean I really feel like when I said you know the world is our oyster and we aim high and you know what where the sky's the limit it's like actually saying let's just keep focused on where we're going because there's so many distractions out there should we be doing a furniture another furniture collection we're obviously doing a lovely one with George Smith now all these collaborations take time and for me they're a huge creative output for me but you know are they distracting.

50:19It's those kind of strategic business conversations that we have to have that I find, I don't find them challenging. I find them really interesting. But I think the main challenge is trying to keep us reined in. Henry does that very well. Well, and I want to talk about some of the things that Henry wants to make happen next, because it sounds, and you and I've talked about this a little bit, it sounds like he wants to have the company become a B Corp and all that that means? We've got, we're pretty much there. I mean, we are expecting to hear any day now about our, you know, being accredited, being a B Corp.

50:56Is that right? Yes. So we've been through this year and a half journey. We've done so much form filling. We've done so much analysis on our business. We've had to really review the people, the planet, and make sure that we're doing the best for the environment. So we've worked very hard on that we've got a sort of focus group team who are in the studio James runs that and he's responsible for our B Corp so he is making sure that every project is the best it possibly could be for environmental as well and we're not just saying it we're actually doing it and I think that's the we're very excited by B Corp um we even have our own bees in the studio we have five hives of honeybees.

51:38And I think that, you know, that in itself is bees are kind of becoming an endangered species. And without bees, you know, we wouldn't have pollination and then we wouldn't have any fruit and vegetables to eat. So it's actually really important, these things. Yes, yes. It's all quite closely tied together. So going back to what we were talking about in the very beginning of the conversation, and this is the conundrum that I'm trying to understand, How on earth could you have built such a big firm if people don't want to celebrate using their interior designers and so many Brits don't want to hire a designer or they pretend that they don't or I don't know.

52:18Is it all international clients? I mean, how have you done it, Emma, knowing that culturally there's this resistance to working with a designer, at least here in Britain? I think we've been lucky that we have attracted incredibly lovely clients and clients who appreciate what we do. It's not about shouting from the rooftops about what we do. It's more about them realizing that they need us. And I think actually British people do really appreciate interior designers. It's just that they're not like these sort of A-list film stars that they are in the States. They're different. They're more practical people.

53:00They're more people, maybe, or certainly I feel like that's who we are. We're really just there to help. We're not there to be on a pedestal. We're there to help them deliver this beautiful home. To show them how organized they could be, if only they brought you and Captain John into their lives. And so while you're building this wonderfully successful design business, John is building this remarkably successful, what do we want to call it? I mean, it's a whole home. Yes, it's a whole home concept. It's retail stores. It's online. it's it's one day going to be coming to america but not not immediately because a lot of things have to be worked out but exactly but it is but it is and you have somewhat been involved as the what shall we say the creative director for that business and it sounds like you were involved from the the very early photo shoots yes right and all of that yeah so it started on again on the kitchen table and actually I had my sewing machine out making my curtains and he needed, he and Giles, his business partner, who they're still partners today, and they still own the business.

54:11So it's a really lovely family business, but they needed someone to sew their first hammock, which was their first business idea. Crazy one that it was. They did sell five and a half thousand hammocks. Yes, Harrods sold a lot of hammocks. Harrods sold a lot of hammocks in the first year, but they did realize that the British weather wasn't that clement for selling garden furniture, garden products. And that's when I started to get quite interested because I was like, we need this, we need that. You know, there aren't companies out there making really well-made furniture at an affordable price that's going to last.

54:46You know, that quality of design, nothing to trend set, you know, something that's really timeless. So I was sort of feeding them with all these ideas quietly and hoping that they would be able to make them. And suddenly they became products. And it was so exciting to see the evolution of how Neptune has grown from its early days to now a really beautiful kitchen furniture, home furniture and accessories brand. And it's really exciting to see the journey that they're on as well. And I mean, I don't even remember how many stores there are now, but I mean it's... There's 30 in the UK and then they have about six in Europe.

55:28They've got stores in Germany, in Paris. They've just opened a fantastic store outside Paris. There's stores in other countries. Actually, they're sort of quietly selling all over the world, really. I mean, even in America, I know they have sold furniture to America. I'm not sure how it would work now so easily. But I think the difference with Neptune is it's this whole home concept. and the store teams are extremely good at helping create the designs as well. So they have very talented kitchen designers who can actually do beautiful drawings, beautiful concepts for a kitchen as well as interior.

56:11And maybe we'll see how close he is to thinking about America. I know he's still sort of thinking about it. Debating it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a dream. It would be a dream, I think. Well, and in a way, I mean, it's also a dream for your firm to do more work in the States. And what do you think that's going to take? Well, we've already done our first, we've had our first foray into working in the States. So I believe now, because we've done a, we worked in the UK, we designed a showroom for Chelsea Textiles, which is an American, beautiful American textile and furniture brand. And I think that's been really eye-opening and insightful.

56:52And, you know, it's a whole different world, the American construction and, you know, just the whole design world is different in America. Things are even measured differently. So inches and feet. Yes. But I would be so excited to work in the States. I feel like our aesthetic would hopefully work well. I think we've got the team to do it now, and I've got lots of excited members of the design team who are desperate. We've worked with lots of American clients in the UK, so the natural next step would be to do something in the States, I hope. And do you imagine that it's going to take actually having a physical office there?

57:34Do you imagine that it, I mean, or - I don't think it's necessary. I think, you know, we've proven that because we've worked in, we're currently doing a large project in Valencia in Spain with a great architect. We're doing another one in Portofino in Italy. So I don't see any difference. It's just, it's shipping, it's understanding tax laws, it's understanding how we dovetail in with the architectural firm and the construction. But I think, you know, if a client loves our aesthetic and they already have an architect in the States, then there's no reason why we can't partner with the architect in our very collaborative way that we do anyway and just run a project from our studio in England.

58:13Obviously, I'd love to go and set up something in the States. Where would you suggest we go, Dennis? Well, it's such a tough decision. And so often, I think that people make that decision based on where they're getting pulled from, right? So some people ended up opening an office unexpectedly in Florida, for example, right? I mean, I think Rita Koenig had a key person who was going to leave, right? And so person said, I'm going down to Florida. It's great. Let's just open an outpost there and start there. And why not? I think that it really depends on where the business takes you. What I'm curious about, and so often we have conversations about these sort of key turning points in the business when you started to get on more people's radar.

59:03Was it house and garden putting you on the 100 list? Right. I mean, I'm assuming. Yes, no, we are. I'm assuming, right? Thanks very much. Thanks to House and Garden. We've been on that list for many years. Yeah. Along with another, you know, handful of wonderful magazines, including Country Life, Country and Poundhouse Magazine, Homes and Gardens. They're all so supportive of what we do. And I think I'm very proud of that. You know, I think that hopefully they feel like we're a good professional practice that they can recommend. And I think our professionalism and what we've talked about with our whole team and the structure and the org chart and how we've got this really strong leadership team means we are ready.

59:48Basically, we're ready to work more internationally. So I hope things will happen. I wonder to that point, I mean, you do, as you say, you've got an org chart, you've got a CEO, you've got finance people working on the cost side and all of the, there's a division of labor that's very sensible. And I'm assuming that that's impressive to a lot of would-be clients. They see the level of your organization and the structure. Of course. I mean, I always say if you were going into business with anybody or giving them your money, you'd want to do your due diligence and check that they were a strong operating company.

1:00:27And whilst we're all in business to make a profit and that's obviously a goal and an end game, I think any person who comes to us as a client would be crazy to try and look for a company that wasn't profitable and that didn't have a good balance sheet and wasn't a strong organization. And so, you know, many of our clients are business people. So they really appreciate the organization they see when they come to us. Earlier, you mentioned if they like your aesthetic, that's a big part of it. Do you feel as though you have a look? Do you feel, I mean, and were you conscious of creating a signature look style?

1:01:10Oh my gosh, that's a Sims Hilditch. Absolutely. I spotted it right away. Yes, it's weird. It's like a sort of accidental haphazard way. I don't know how it happened, but there is a Sims Hilditch look, a DNA. But what I'm proud of and what I'm excited by is, you know, the projects where some of our younger members of the team design a room or a house. And I go up to it and I see the building or see what they've done. And I'm like really bowled over. And I'm like, this is incredible because it's kind of Sims Hilditch twisted and turned in a slightly different way. we just did the old war office we did a fantastic apartment there which is we had to do it in eight weeks it was a very quick turnaround oh my goodness eight week turnaround um for a show apartment there which is going it's on the market for 16 million so it's a very special property um i guess in the center of london in the old war office okay and um i wouldn't have designed that room that way but equally it wouldn't have been right for the client if i'd given them my design it probably would have been maybe too traditional or too, you know, a different direction.

1:02:17But my team delivered an amazing brief. And that's what I love is the diversity we have in the team. I think in any business, diversity is so important. Would you agree? Well, absolutely. And so does that suggest then that it's less about a signature look, and more just how the whole thing comes together and ends up. So it's not just about, as you say, it's not just this traditional English style. Yeah. I think there's always a thread, a DNA thread of the Sim Silditch style running through the projects. You know, we would probably, there are certain boundaries we wouldn't do. So we wouldn't specify an ultra modern kitchen if that's what a client wanted, to put a bulltop kitchen in a historic house, of course we wouldn't say no.

1:03:08Once you stopped crying and pulling your hair out and thinking what else can I do to talk the person out of this. But I'd much rather put a more classical kitchen in personally that was timeless and that could be repainted. But no, you know, it's always down to the client's individual needs, but at the same time they would come to us knowing what they would get and they would go to Kelly Hoppen knowing what they would get with Kelly And that's what the wow house shows, doesn't it? It showcases what a designer's real sort of DNA is because they're doing this without a client involved. So it's quite fun.

1:03:44Well, it's interesting coming back to the wow house and coming back to show houses and how there aren't a lot of show houses here. So in America, the hope with the show house is that you're not having to work with a client. You can create something that you want or that was some expression of yourself that you hope people are going to see. right help put you on the map you don't need to be put on the map at this point but it's it's wonderful to get that exposure you hope that some wonderful international client is going to walk through and say oh my gosh I've got to have this right I mean is it that same sort of thinking with all of this always yeah always we you know we're still definitely not um we're not a sort of global name that I don't believe we are but maybe other people would disagree but I I feel like there's always room for, you know, more opportunity to help people get to know who we are.

1:04:39And I think this kind of opportunity at the design center is extraordinary because on the first day we were there, I talked to a lady from Australia, a family from Ohio, from Texas, from South Africa. It's so international. Oh, fantastic. It's incredible. So I was really bowled over by that. I had no idea it would be quite such an international show. Yeah. Well, and that's just what you think with London, that it's bringing people from all over the world, right? It does. And so that makes a lot of sense in a way. Before we go, so funny enough, I bumped into David Lipton from World of Interiors.

1:05:16Ah, yes. So the lovely David Lipton, he had, just before I came over, he had written an article about why isn't there more criticism in the interior design world, right? So there's food critics and there's art critics and there's architecture critics. And what's the problem? And interestingly, we've been having that discussion in the States. My partner, Fred, and I sort of, why isn't there more of that? There are humorous people who do criticisms of celebrity homes and lots of good sport around all of that. But we don't have people holding up, here's great work and here's what makes it great. Yes.

1:05:56Right? That's a really good question. Do you know what I mean? I do. And I don't know whether it's just because we're all such sort of, not we, but I mean, there's a lot of prima donnas in the industry that get very upset. There'd be a lot of tears. That's the perception. That's the perception that there's a lot of people who are just, and I get it. Yeah. Sensitive. We don't like to be, yeah, don't like to be criticized. Or we think, oh, this is somebody's home. You shouldn't be criticized, blah, blah, blah. But it's not that we're criticizing the home. Yes. Right. But we do want to be able to say, oh, yes, you're right.

1:06:27This is great work. This is why we want to encourage people to look at so-and-so's work and learn from it. You know, you talk to so many designers of a certain generation and they will tell you, oh, my gosh, of course we studied Billy Baldwin or of course we studied whoever it is for them. I think one of the things I love doing is nurturing talent and actually seeing the talent in really young people. and in our studio we've got lots of that and actually feeling like I can make a difference to those young people to how to give them the opportunity to really flourish and to learn and I do think you know there's a critique part in that isn't there it's actually saying sometimes saying no you're not right or no you've got that wrong or actually you need to aim higher or you haven't quite understood the brief and I think you know we shouldn't be afraid of criticism although we are and we don't like it naturally um it's all about personalities in the industry isn't it and when you're looking for someone to design your home the first for me the most important thing is to get on with your designer yeah and you could perhaps going back to your critique thing you could say there are some personalities that aren't very approachable and others that are really approachable and so you know maybe that could be something you could investigate his personalities and who's right for what type of client.

1:07:53That would be quite an interesting article to write. Well, I mean, I think there's a lot to be discussed and considered. And I'm hoping that this conversation is going to be ongoing because I do think, yes, you make a great point that, and I've spoken to so many designers who worked for very prestigious firms. And of course, the principals came through and criticized your work or the choices that you were making about this color, that trim, this fabric, right? Are you sure that's what you want to use in that room? Maybe you want to go back and reconsider. Are there other choices? Do you want to come back, show me something?

1:08:29I mean, I think that's part of the learning and evolutionary process. But I think that, as you say, there's an understandable sensitivity to it, and I get it. I'm curious, in conclusion, growing this big team that you have, What have you learned about what ends up making a great designer or what makes a great team member? What is it that people bring? It's a really good question. I think one of the things we often overlook, so you look for someone with great talent as a designer, but are they able to present their ideas to a client? Can they stand up in front of a family office? Can they, you know, if you're talking about ultra high net worth people, they often, you're not often not even talking to the client.

1:09:20You're often talking to a client representative. So it's how can that person confidently stand up and speak in a way that is convincing, that is compelling, that is, you know, really getting their point across. It's a kind of sales role in a way. Can you sell yourself and your ideas? Yes. So we've actually recently done some training on this particular subject. Have you? Yeah. We're always investing in our team. And one of the things we've done is we've had a lovely couple of people come and we've done a month long of sort of two hour sessions on, it's almost like therapy sessions. It's brilliant.

1:09:56I'm sure. How to get into the psyche of your client and how to understand from their perspective what they might be thinking and how to convey yourself well, how to speak eloquently, how to convince them in a very un-sales way how you're going to improve their life by designing their home. So it's wonderful to invest in the team in that way. I'm really enjoying it. I think CPD, we call it, continued professional development is really overlooked. and I think it needs to be done all the time in any business actually. I agree and I'm so glad that you focused in on that because so often when I have people come and talk in front of the students at the New York School of Interior Design, so many of them say you've got to be able to sell yourself, your ideas and not be afraid because as you say.

1:10:50It's part of it. Yes. It's part of any business when you're interacting with a client is like giving them confidence, giving them quiet confidence and reassurance that they're safe in your hands. Yeah, no, that's wonderful. I'm so glad that you invest that time and that energy in your staff and continuing professional development. Emma, thank you so much for your time and for talking with me. Thanks, Dennis. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more.

1:11:38If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.