Why Remy Renzullo doesn't have (or want) a website

25:59Everyone has this. And so I realized very quickly, like, holy shit, like the volume of email, of correspondence. So I didn't have a clue. And so, you know, this, so I hired this person to kind of work for me part-time. And I think probably about six to nine months into it, I think I really realized like, no, no, full-time, this has got to be a full-time hire. And I think I've got enough work to support this. And, you know, I was working out of my house didn't have an office. So I just sort of felt like, you know, this is, this is gotta be some money well spent because otherwise, I mean, this is going to end quicker than it began.

26:36And so that was that. And then it's interesting because, you know, then COVID of course happened kind of after a couple, you know, I had this sort of moment where I started and it was sort of, it very quickly, it became serious. And I had some amazing projects, amazing clients and kind of big league sort of stuff. And I think I definitely, definitely grew too quickly. And I don't even mean sort of size of business, but just I was saying yes to too many things. I was just, you know, I was overly ambitious with what I could handle. But it's so hard in the beginning, right? To not say yes to everything and you feel like - Exactly.

27:11And you think, I still to this day feel that, you know, God forbid I say no to someone, then that's it. There's never going to be another job on the horizon and I'm going to be thrown in debtor's prison. I mean, you know, it's just like, no, but I mean, it's, it's, it's really, really scary. Um, and so I was like, yeah, sure. Yes. I'll do it. You know, and that was like, holy fucking shit. Like I don't have, you know, it's me and one person and I, you know, and I've got, I'm trying to do this and I don't know how to do this. And you know, oh my God, like we can't keep up with the invoicing and my accountants aren't getting the information they need and sales tax is being filed.

27:45I mean, all these things that nobody tells you about um and so it was just like holy shit um and then i took a huge project overseas um it probably the worst you know as i'm already overwhelmed in america i think great i'm gonna do this enormous 12 000 square foot house in london i need to go abroad and go across the pond and start working there too why not anyway and so just things started to really get you know suddenly it was like oh my god how can i crazy and i'm at this point i'm 27 right like you know I mean, it's just insanity. And I'm just trying to kind of keep up with all of it. And then COVID happens.

28:22And then it's this project isn't happening anymore. And, oh, actually, we're putting this on hold. And it's like, uh. And actually, it was such a, it proved, I mean, I made it through it. And it proved to be an incredible reset for me. Because there were a lot of projects that ended for one reason or another because of COVID. I moved out of New York, like a lot of people did. I moved back into my father's family home in Connecticut. And then we started to kind of come out of COVID. And I feel that from then until now has been this really, really extraordinary period of sustainable growth in my business and my company.

29:00And understanding how to put together a fantastic team. And really understanding how to design a house. Yes. And so I think that the thing I'm sort of most proud of is that I managed to kind of come through a really difficult time of not understanding how to run a business or how to put it together. And now I'm fully in command of the business side of things and I've learned a lot about that. But it's a really sustainable, well-organized, well-run company and we do amazing work. So when does Castle Howard come along for you and how does that happen? And that seems to just put you on a whole other trajectory, right?

29:38It came about during COVID. It was, thanks for being too many, I was at home. I had just literally a week before moved out of my apartment in New York. And I get a text from an old friend of mine I haven't seen in ages called Blanche Howard, basically saying, listen, my parents need to do some work on their house. And I was sharing my mom some of your work and they're really keen to meet with you, what's the best email to kind of reach you and would you be interested? At this point, the Howards have always had, since before they moved up to run Castle Howard, from before then, they have a lovely, lovely house outside of Bath, which was their sort of house before Castle Howard.

30:23And it's a wonderful sort of old rectory. And I sort of assumed that it was something to do with that. So you thought that was the house that you used to create? Exactly, exactly. Yeah, because even in my delusions of Grandview, I never imagined for a second that it would be Castle Howard. Oh, you're calling to have me take care of Castle Howard, right? Exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, I said, yeah, of course, I'd love to talk to your parents about some decoration work, et cetera, et cetera. I said, great, okay. Anyway, so about three days after Thanksgiving, I'm at my desk in my study, and I get an email and it says, Victoria Howard, and it says, dear Rami, you know, this is Victoria Blount's mother, you know, she's told me, she's shown me some of your work, you know, I'd love to talk to you about doing some decorating work, would you be available to come to Castle Howard?

31:06It's a small place that we have in the countryside and we'd love for you to come and check. Yeah. Yeah. So I sort of, you know, picked myself up off the floor

31:18and wrote an email and replied and said, yes, absolutely. I would love that. And so in January of 2021, I got a train in the midst of the second lockdown in England up to Yorkshire in the middle of a blizzard. And so in such environment, I arrived to Castle Howard. And so I've taken on this extraordinary hour and a half long tour through one room after the next. And I mean, I'm not exaggerating, but I mean, it's like something out of Brighton, out of dust sheets on furniture and, you know, shutters closed up. And it was like, I'd like to think that it was sort of total synergy at first. We had this amazing dialogue and rapport from the beginning.

32:03And, you know, to the Howard's credit, they had had every, they turned to every interior decorator under the signing. And from Robert Kine to David Milonaric to, you know, I mean, the list goes on and on and on. And they decided to give a 29-year-old America a shot. Why? Why do you think? I mean, looking back, what was going on in their minds, do you think? I think that it was important to them that it was somebody who was young and really full of enthusiasm. And that this is a daunting, vast project, which will, in theory, go on for a very, very, very long time. We've completed the first phase of it, but by no means is it finished.

32:47That was really important to them. And I also think that I'm really a big believer in the importance of first impressions with people. And I think that we just got along. And I think as well that, you know, they had had a lot, as I said, they had a lot of people come up to look at this way more qualified than I was. But, you know, people who said, well, okay, great, I'm going to come up here with my team of 12 and we're going to, you know, and what they didn't want was that. They wanted somebody who was going to say, listen, I'm going to really take this on. I'm going to kind of live in and absorb this place.

33:20And I think it was, you know, they were absolutely right. And they said that, you know, are you willing to spend a lot of time here? which I know sounds like, I mean, who wouldn't? But, you know, obviously. Oh, all right. All right. There are obviously a lot of, you know, I'm sure there are a lot of people in this industry who would love to say yes and just can't because of other commitments, other, you know, whatever. They couldn't. They couldn't come and spend that kind of time. Yeah, and maybe don't want to either. You know, I mean, who knows? But for me, it was like very early on, we spoke in kind of slightly abstract, but larger kind of terms about things, of the importance of working really iteratively, that it's not like putting together a deck of room schemes.

33:56It's absorbing this place. In some cases, it was like one of the first things that I was tasked with were making some new lampshades for a sitting room. Here you are in Castle Howard. There's a wing of the house. It's got a burnt-out shell. There's nine million things to do. And we spent a week sitting talking about lampshades. But in a way, when you have so much to do, the only way you can begin is to start in a really, really small way. And so, you know, as I say, it wasn't as if I was hired and said, okay, your remit is all of this. It was like, we're going to give you a little bit to work on.

34:30Let's see how we do. Let's see if we get, and it was what was really, really, really important to Howard's was let's see how we get along. And let's see if our taste is aligned. because it's one thing to sit and talk about something together and think that you'll match. It's another thing once you actually start going. And to both of our sort of pleasant surprises, it was a total match made in half. I mean, they are extraordinary clients and they're my second family now. In the last five years, I've spent more time in Castle Howard than I've spent in any other one place. I also think that it was almost like the kind of master's degree that I never had.

35:08that I had this exposure to some of the advantage of being there, right, is that you get access to some of the most extraordinary craftsmen in the entire world, because who doesn't want to contribute to the restoration at Castle Howard? But also the immense importance of the place means that it demands a level of perfection and expertise that when I started, I didn't have, but that I very quickly had to get. And so it was, as I say, I learned more from that project than any other. And so in that respect, I'm not only proud of the work that I did, but I'm really proud of who I became from doing that project.

35:49So tell me about that. Who have you become as a result of doing that project? I think I've really learned what I love to work on. And as I said, I feel now that I can create the sort of rooms that I used to only be able to imagine. I think what I realized is that where I excel are in these long-term projects, big projects, where there's a certain amount of historical restoration and knowledge involved, but also a lot of imagination as well, and a lot of creativity, and the ability to work really iteratively, to work really collaboratively. I mean, all of these things that, you know, working somewhere like Castle Howard, you're very acutely aware that you are one of a much, much larger team.

36:38There's no room for a kind of the kind of cult of one, so to speak. And I'm working on some projects now, which are not the same size per se, but I think I found a little bit of a kind of métier in less of a particular period or environment, but of a sort of a scale project and also of being able to work with a certain type of client and one who has a lot of taste, has a lot of knowledge and wants to work with someone who will be really collaborative. I don't really have clients who say, okay, I'm going to write a check. I want to have sign off all of the schemes once and then go and do it. I mean, I don't really have clients like that.

37:21And I'm actually, a lot of people say to me, well, how nice would it be? But actually, I don't think I love I love this close relationship I have with my clients and working really closely with them. And do you feel as though your work is likely to continue along this path of it's part restorative restoration work, it's part it's always filled with antiques? I get the sense that people aren't going to necessarily be saying, oh, just bought this new place in LA, I can't wait for you to come and trick it out with the latest collections. No, it's interesting. I think that, as I say, I think the way I have developed my process around working will not change.

38:04And I think that so much of it, it was so informed by my job at Castle Hyde because so much of it began with having to research things and having to learn. And so that's still an immensely important component that I think that beginning a project by researching, understanding what's there, understanding what was there, and that means very different things in very different environments, as opposed to just saying, I'm going to, you know, and I don't mean this in a disparaging way at all, but I'm not going to sit and put together a mood board for a project. That's not really who I am. And there's a sort of rigorous research process that is involved in it.

38:38And it's interesting, you know, I'm about to finish this at the end of the summer, a project I've worked on for five years, which is a quite modern house up a mountain in Wyoming. and I didn't do the, I mean, in conjunction with a local architecture firm, but I was pretty involved in the architectural component of it. But it's a house that's very informed by the Wyoming, sort of 19th century stone barn vernacular of Wyoming with a lot of modernist Japanese influences. So it could not be aesthetically on paper more different than Castle Howard. And it's clients of mine, you know, who have a fantastic collection of contemporary art, design furniture, these types of things.

39:21So as I say, on paper, it could not be more of the polar opposite. And yet the way in which we have decorated it, the way in which we've approached doing it, it's still the same process as Castle Howard. It's just applied in a very different way. And I think that when people ask me what my taste is or what my aesthetic is, which I find to be an incredibly inane question for the most part, Um, you know, what I always say is that I try to create interiors. I try to get environments that look like they've always been there. And that means something very, very different in an English Baroque stately home than it does in a contemporary, uh, house in Wyoming.

40:01But the way in which I go about doing and achieving that is effectively the same process. Which makes total sense. And so it's less about your, your taste and more about your understanding and the approach and recognizing what's there and what you're paying attention to. I want someone to walk into a house that I've done or a room that I've done and to not understand that I've been there because they can't imagine the room any way differently than how it is. It's not about, I don't, I mean, I sort of bristle at the notion that someone walks into a room and can tell that I've done it. And I think that how I can achieve that or how I've achieved that to a certain extent is that there's such a huge focus on what goes into it as opposed to the decoration of it, if that makes sense.

40:45And that's where, to come full circle, it's where I fully come back to my childhood and the environment that I grew up in. My mother didn't sit there and put together a mood board or a presentation board of how her entiers were going to look. She went out, she filled a house with things that she loved and beautiful things that because of who she was as a person, they all fit together because it was representative of her personality. And so that's why, you know, if there is a way to tell that I've done a house versus I haven't, that's how a house, a modern house I've done in Wyoming can have the same feeling that Castle Howard can.

41:20Because it's the same approach.

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42:07To learn more, visit Ernesta.com slash B-O-H. That's Ernesta.com slash B-O-H. And now, back to the show.

42:23Now, did the Castle Howard project lead to the need for the office in London, or were you starting to imagine doing so much other work in the UK and Europe? I think yes and no. I think that definitely it necessitated kind of having a bit of a footprint per se. But I think it was also just part of just a business expanding is just the need to have more infrastructure around it. You know, last year I hired a COO who's actually, who's happens to be my sort of oldest best friend. And that has been the single biggest transformation. Probably why I'm sitting here with some sense of calm having this conversation with you.

43:03So, you know, and I don't think I could have done it in an effective way a few years ago. I think it took me kind of having to learn so much about what it is to run a business and be a business owner before I could hire someone to now do a lot of that for me. But I've always tried to grow the business in a very sustainable, slow way. Because, you know, I don't want to take on more people than I need or more people that, you know, I can sustain. And at the same time, I also recognized from trying to do everything myself at one point, how important it is to have a really good team around me. And is your COO eager to develop that website of yours and get that going, Remy?

43:40Because right now it's just a page there. We have a very funny conversation about that. At first, yes. And she has now come to recognize that it's never going to happen. I did something that I feel fundamentally strong. I do not want a website. You know, this is a really, really obnoxious thing to say, but Jacques Grange doesn't have a website. So, you know, if he can get by without one, then I could certainly try to also. You know, I think there are lots of amazingly talented people, as I look up to, who don't have websites. And so, you know, I don't see the point of it for myself. Because you don't want to market yourself in that way?

44:19No. I mean, I do this work for my clients. And so I don't know what I gain from having a website. That the rest of the world can see the work that I'm doing. I don't know that that really matters. If someone wants to hire me, they generally come upon my work somewhat organically, or they have been in a house that I've done. They might know somebody who hired me or someone recommends me. Then they can get, and they get, you know, they reach out, they get a beautiful portfolio from my office. But I don't personally feel the need to have my work on a website for the entire world to see. And your friend who came on as the COO.

44:49So at first, I'm imagining she's having a terrible time wrapping her head around this whole thing. Yes. Yes. I mean, I think, you know, because I think it's a normal reaction. And I think it's a normal thing. And I think 99 % of people I speak to push me to do this. And just for who I am, for what this business is about, I don't want one. I just, it doesn't, it doesn't speak to kind of who I feel I am. And do you feel also to that point, and I completely understand and respect where you're coming from, do you think that it also filters out the kind of people who are going to come to you in a way?

45:21You know, I think possibly. I mean, I think, I don't know. I don't know about that. I think that, listen, I'm not for everybody. And I think that that's clearly apparent. So, you know, I don't think I appeal to a broad spectrum of people. And I don't think that will ever change. So I don't know, as I say, I don't know what I gained from a website. I think that for somebody to want to entrust me with their house, there has to sort of be a little bit of a personal connection there. in some form or another. Yeah. No, no, no. I understand. It's fascinating to me in a way, and I'm totally teasing you about - No, no, no, no, no, of course.

45:59No, no, no. But we're living in a time where many in the industry are frantic about AI is knocking on the door of the industry, right? And everyone is thinking, oh, we're going to be replaced. We're going to do this, that, and the other, right? And also the way that people are marketing themselves and presenting themselves. And they're in this Instagram loop that seems to suggest that they need to be character actors and sharing not just their projects, but what they're having for lunch and how they prepared it. And do they like onions or do they prefer garlic? All of that. And so you, on the other hand, are saying, you know what?

46:38I got a webpage and don't bother me. And if you want to come find me, come find me. Yeah, basically. And I think a lot of that is, and I'm probably somewhat pretentious about it, but I think a lot of that is a reaction to everything that you have just said. Part of why I stopped working in fashion is that I found the kind of cult of celebrity around designers beyond exhausting and tedious. I think it's important to celebrate people for their talent, for their craft, but for the pure notion of being famous or recognizable, I think is completely ridiculous. You know, interior designers, you're a background figure, right?

47:17Like I'm not here to market myself. I'm here to create something beautiful. And so to the extent that, not exclusively, but I mean, I do very, very, very little sort of press about myself that doesn't have to do with very closely tied to a project that I've done or anything like that. You know, someone asks me to do my list of 10 favorite things. I mean, no. I mean, who the hell cares? No, but I think the problem is that. I think that, you know, and not just my generation, even above mine, but there's this sort of this kind of notion of personal fame, which I find exhausting. And I don't think that that makes one's business more renumerative.

48:01I don't think that gets you a client. I think my clients would preferred that I was as anonymous as possible, quite frankly. And, you know, I listen, I love Instagram. I'm completely addicted to it. I will fully admit that. I love, you know, I'm a visual And you've got this huge following. I mean, they obviously want to hear more. They want to see more. Some of my friends to really get to really piss me off always joke that I'm an influencer, which makes me insane. But no, but I mean, you know, I think it's almost fun. I love the spontaneity of it. I don't take it too seriously. Instagram, it's an interesting one because it allows me, particularly before I really did a lot of work, it allowed me to communicate a taste and an aesthetic.

48:42It allowed me to communicate what I like and what I was interested in way more to this day even than a website ever could. Well, and interestingly, as you articulated, and I think you're absolutely right that many clients would love their designers to be more discreet and more anonymous. And I do think, and so many of the great decorators have said to me, Dennis, this is a service industry and I must never lose sight of that. Exactly. I mean, I see some people hosting their sort of incredibly extravagant holidays and watches and cars and all of this stuff. And I just think, I mean, it's like, what?

49:20I mean, I don't know. For me, I agree. Maybe I'm really, really old-fashioned. But this is a service industry. I am here to do something. I am hired to create something for somebody else. They're not hiring me to be famous. They're not hiring me to be glamorous. They're hiring me to work hard and give them a beautiful house. And so, you know, it's like I think it can so easily send the wrong message. And it's like, who is this really for? Because it's not for your clients, surely. And I've always been really, I don't know, I've always tried to be cognizant of that. I mean, I feel uncomfortable sometimes.

49:51You know, sometimes I'll be on – I rarely take a holiday that's a true holiday. But I mean, sometimes I'll be somewhere beautiful and post a photo of it. And I feel guilty because I think, God, my clients are going to think, why the hell is he there posting a photo of that church? She's supposed to be in the office designing my fucking sofa. Well, I do often wonder about that. Yes. And they're right. And I'm so curious about that. Some of my greatest work has come out of what I have seen in the world around me. Because I was in one particular random church in Vicenza and saw the way the marble pattern was, and all of a sudden I could visualize my client's bathroom that I have been trying for months to come up with an idea for.

50:35I mean, that's right. As I would go about my fundamental point earlier of that, we have to expose ourselves to the world around us in order to do our job well. But I do not need to be, not that I am anyway, but I do not need to be posting photos of myself in St. Bart's on some 200-foot yacht at New Year's. Not that I'm doing that anyway. But even if I were, I would not be posting on Instagram about it. Well, I mean, listen, it's an interesting and thoughtful choice that you're making. And I respect and very much appreciate it. And it frankly is refreshing because it runs very contrary. And again, in part because so many designers aren't certain where the next set of jobs are coming from and the pipeline always has to be full.

51:22And I think everyone is trying to market themselves in any number of ways because they feel this is what's necessary today. And it sounds as though you feel as if enough business is coming to you at present, that you feel confident about the future workflow. Do you give thought to artificial intelligence and what you see happening there? And do friends of yours talk to you about how it's showing up in their world? It's hard. I mean, yes. Listen, I read the news every day. I try to stay up on these things. I can understand its relevance in this industry to a certain extent, I guess. I have a rule in my office.

52:06There's no chat GPT. There's no AI. There's none of this. People need to know how to write an email, even a difficult one. You need to be able to draw something or figure out a way to communicate it that isn't punching a bunch of stuff into a computer. Maybe I'm really archaic and that's a really, really terrible business strategy. I don't know. But I believe this has to be an industry that is what will be one of the last to be fully replaced by something like AI. Because, listen, I'm hired now, I suppose, for a certain level of technical expertise, but I'm really hired because of my aesthetic and my eye.

52:41And how can that? That cannot be replaced. And I think that also in a business where inherently it has to be so tactile and there is so much emotion involved, I'd like to think that this will remain still, that the humanity will remain in this business. And I hope that you're right. And I hope that our industry is the last. And I don't know. I mean, listen, I don't know. As I said, I don't know. But I think that it's important to continually demonstrate to clients, I think, why you're hiring a decorator and not a computer. And also, and I think fundamentally, you know, and I think something I've touched on briefly, but which is so hugely important to me is the notion is craft.

53:23And I think at the end of the day, like part of why I love my job, part of why I love to create the interiors I create is that it keeps a huge level of artisanal craft alive, that if it weren't for people like me and for my incredibly generous inspired clients, these skill sets would die out. This is a business where handcraft is still alive and well. And the second that a craft is lost, it will never be learned again. And so, yes, I want to create a beautiful interior in the same way. I want to go to beautiful interior. I want to buy lovely things. I want to make a lot of money from doing it, sure.

54:02But what's in many ways more important to me is to keep this industry alive. Not just the industry of interior design, but all of the things that it supports. And I think that, again, that's where I feel really, really fortunate to an extent of my background. I'm the son of a craftsman, so I'm very fundamentally aware of that. I think that, I guess, a little bit of my East Coast, puritanical liberalism, Even in interior design, we have a higher purpose than just making an expensive house. It's about, there has to be a deeper meaning to this for me. And it's about, when I speak to somebody who is a seventh generation craftsman in a particular skill set, I mean, that's why I remember what it is that I do.

54:51And when a client says to me, well, why is this so for$20 ,000 when I know I can go here And I say, because every single bit of that is made by hand by somebody who learned that skill from somebody who learned that skill from someone who learned that skill. And that goes back hundreds of years. That's why you do this. It's not to have it's not so you can say you have an expensive house so that you can have things that are so beautifully made in a world where there's so little of that left. So with that said, and as we wrap up, Remy, what what would you like to see happen next for you? So you had this wonderful collaboration with Watts and created some beautiful textiles.

55:26And that geese wallpaper that you did was so fantastic. I mean, could you see doing collaborations, more things like that? What would you like to see? It's interesting. I think that sitting here speaking about 10 years, and as I said, I like milestones for better or for worse. So it's on my mind, certain things. One thing that I'm really, really excited about at the moment is I'm entering a new field of which I have no experience in, which is hospitality. And I'm working on a hotel at the moment with my partner in Italy, in Tuscany. We are restoring a beautiful little 11-room hotel that is on the family estate of my partner's mother's family and are not only sort of restoring it, but will be transforming it, running it all.

56:16So I'm sort of, I was an accidental decorator. I'm now going to be an accidental hotelier, I guess. Really? So, I mean, you're really going to be that involved that you're going to be? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hugely so. Hugely so. How exciting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, as I said, you know, I spent the last kind of year and a half learning about running a hotel. And it's part of a larger kind of agricultural estate. And so lots of different aspects in that, aside from hospitality that I've been learning about and getting interested in. And so we'll see where that goes. But it's opening in June. It's opening in June.

56:50That's any minute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't remind me.

56:56to this start. And then I think, you know, a long, long held ambition and aspiration that I've had, which I don't know that it will happen this year, but it's, I'm certainly starting to lay the groundwork for it. It's not a collaboration, but it's to do my own fabric business. It's something I've wanted to do forever. And I've always had this passion. I'm a voracious, voracious buyer of antique fragments of textiles, documents, things like that. I have an enormous this archive. And it's something I've always wanted to do. And I think that it feels now that business is in a good place. The company is running really well.

57:32We've got good projects, good infrastructure. And it might be kind of the time that I can devote a little bit of my time to doing this. And I think I've built a little bit of a profile so that I can start something and hope that some people will notice. But that's the next thing I really want to do. Okay. Well, this is exciting. So we'll look for the new textile line in the next year. I mean, hopefully it won't be the 20-year anniversary. I mean, hopefully it'll come out before then. But I guess my point about it is that I don't know if it will happen this year. It might take three years. It might take five years.

58:09I don't know. I don't want to do it until I feel it's ready. And I think that it's so important in today's world where there's so much product. There's so much choice. I've heard that. I've heard there's a lot of fabric out there. I've heard. I know. I've heard there's not a lot of white space. I don't know. Some talk about it regularly on podcasts about the plethora of fabric that's out there. Someone said recently that I think the last thing the world needs, interior design world needs, is one more fabric line. So listen, it might have a very short lifespan. Who knows? It might be a passion project, but who, right?

58:45You feel like you want to put something out there. I want to do it. And I think that, listen, the world heart did not need one more decorator when I decided to start my business either. So I think there's enough, there's room for everybody. There you go. Remy, I'm so thrilled to get to speak with you and I'm so grateful for your time. And I really, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you. No, no, no. It was a pleasure, Dennis. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it. And it's always nice to talk about the things that I feel passionate about. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider Community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more.

59:33If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.