Best of Business Wars Daily | Holiday Wars | 6

0:04The holiday shopping season is when companies' bottom lines are put to the test. We've covered it all, from the package delivery face-offs, department store battles, the anything-but-sweet candy wars, and of course, who could forget the fight for at-home movie viewers between Hallmark and Lifetime? But the industry with perhaps the highest stakes this time of year, it's got to be toys. We've chronicled the rivalry between top toy makers and the tech companies trying to muscle in on that turf, as well as the battles between the toy stores themselves. But today, we'll determine which of our favorite throwback toys stands out among the rest.

0:42Light, light, light, light, turn on the magic of colored lights. Soccer bopper, soccer bopper. Hi there, my name is Teddy Ruxpin. I am Big Macer! Who's the big guy with the muscles? He's He-Man, the most powerful man in the universe. Believe it or not, a lot of the toys we consider old school are very much alive and well. and selling like hotcakes. But which ones stand out as the goat, the greatest of all toys, that is? Here to help us find out is comedian Josh Gondelman and New York Times reporter Jordan Holman. Stick around for this special holiday episode of Business Wars.

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3:33From Wondery, I'm David Brown, and this is Holiday Wars. Today we're talking about toys of holidays past with comedian Josh Gondelman and New York Times retail reporter Jordan Holman. Welcome back, you two. Hi. Oh, thanks so much for having us. Josh, you last joined us for our Business Wars five-year anniversary episode in March, and I recall you turning the tables and putting me in the hot seat for a Q &A. Rumor has it you're going to reprise your role a little later in this episode. That's right. We're going full Frost Nixon at the end of this, so everybody should stay tuned. Does that make me Nixon?

4:08I'm not sure I go for that. We're going to flip it. I'm going to be Nixon, and I'm asking you the questions. I feel like Frost got off too easy. Well, what have you been up to since we last checked in? I feel like we've been hearing your name everywhere. Oh my gosh. Well, there was a long writer's strike and actor's strike this year. And so I was kind of neck deep in that effort. And so it was a lot of walking around in circles. Oh boy. A lot of Janice. Yeah, it was, you know, and I'm really proud of the work that the guilds did. And especially I was so involved in the WGA strike effort. And I'm really proud of the solidarity from the members and the sibling unions.

4:45And it just like really meant a lot to me to be a part of that. And then I was on tour doing a ton of stand up all year. So it was picket line stand up, picket line stand up was kind of my summer and fall. I mean, you've been everywhere, but we need to bring in Jordan. Big welcome back to you, too. Last time we had you on, you revealed something I still can hardly believe. You have never eaten candy. Have you given in yet? No, still going strong. Multiple decades strong on this. I love that. That's the fun fact that you're still thinking of. Is there anything that could tempt you? Anything at all?

5:22Jelly bellies, perhaps? I mean, I can't resist them. No, I really feel like I have to keep this going strong because I don't have many fun facts. So this has to be it. What do you eat for like an after dinner treat or a midnight snack? So I still like sweets. I like ice cream. Got it. So that's like my thing. It's just truly candy, this very narrow category. Got it. Well, how's the holiday season looking for you so far, Jordan? Uh, it's been busy. So, you know, I'm a retail reporter. So Black Friday, Cyber Monday is like my Super Bowl. So definitely spent, you know, sometimes in malls, not just shopping for myself, but also talking to people about how Black Friday basically is a month long adventure now.

6:13And yeah, and that's just kind of setting me up for other holiday coverage throughout the end of the year. Well, we're going to be talking about, well, I was going to say toys that you may have covered in the course of your reporting there, Jordan. But actually, that's not the case. We're going to be turning the clock back a bit to explore some of the toys of our own youth and maybe trying to establish some of the goats, the greatest of all toys. We got some different age groups represented in our panel here. So I want to get a sense of some of the greatest toys from your generation. I may have some ears on you both, so you might not have heard of some of my favorites.

6:50Major Matt Mason, soccer boppers, thing maker, Hot Wheels. Well, Hot Wheels are still around. Josh, would you call yourself a millennial? I mean, how do you see yourself? I think I've been told that I'm a geriatric millennial, which is a nice way to say I'm one of the oldest of the young people or the youngest of the old people. Yeah, so I'm firmly in that millennial nostalgia. I feel like every Instagram account is designed to be like, remember this thing from your childhood? I'm like, oh yeah, I guess Koosh balls. Yep, sure. Koosh balls. What else were top toys when you were growing up? I mean, for me, it was a lot of Nerf and a lot of Nintendo.

7:32I feel like every football that I encountered until I was about 13 was kind of a neon soft, squishy ball. Some of them had like kind of a mistletail on them for some reason. And then it was, you know, video games, the kind of rise of console gaming were two of the big ones for me. And there were others too. But that's, I think if I had to pick two, I would be outside, you know, shooting baskets or throwing a ball around with friends. or inside just staring at a screen. Those are polar opposites. Jordan, what about you? Any crossover with Josh? Kind of. So I love how you described where you fall.

8:12So I feel like I'm the youngest of the millennials, but kind of the oldest of the youngs. So there is some crossover. I would definitely say I had more screen time. So thinking about the Game Boys, but also I play with a lot of dolls. Like I'm the American girl doll generation. Uh-huh. Yeah. Or just an identity. Yeah. Let's begin with dolls. You're not alone if you saw the Barbie movie this summer and thought perhaps Ken or Ryan Gosling stole the show. My daughter certainly did. But we can't forget about another person who was central to the story either. So you're... Ruth Handler, inventor of Barbie.

8:53Barbie! That's so cool. Her ghost keeps an office on the 17th floor. Ruth Handler dreamed up Barbie as a way for girls to break out of play that only involved pretending to be a mother, a doll that girls could imagine themselves becoming, perhaps. It debuted in 1959 after three years of production. Let's listen to a clip from our series Hasbro vs. Mattel, where Handler first introduces her creation to buyers at the annual toy fair in Manhattan. Girls will get the doll and then want her dresses and clothes, which are all sold separately. But the store buyers are all men, and they're not convinced.

9:33Girls want to be mommies. They want baby dolls. I'll make a small order out of respect for Mattel, but I don't think these will sell. You can't sell a doll with a chest. It's disgusting. One worried buyer asks Ruth what's beneath Barbie's strapless zebra-striped swimsuit. To his embarrassment, Ruth strips the doll right in front of him. He sighs with relief when he sees that Barbie has nipple-free breasts and a featureless undercarriage. By the afternoon, Ruth is hoarse from trying to push Barbie on skeptical buyers. She runs her hands through her hair and sighs. She's starting to despair. She's told the factories in Japan to make 20 ,000 Barbies a week.

10:19But at this rate, Mattel is going to be drowning in unsold Barbies. And we all know how that story went. Since that debut, more than a billion Barbies have been sold. Jordan, did you ever play with Barbies? Of course, yes. I was caught up in the commercialism of it all. So I definitely have Barbies. I have different iterations of them. I even owned like one of the Spice Girl doll Barbies, Scary Spice. That's got to be a classic. I bet that's collectible these days. I mean, I wish I still owned it. But yes, like I had lots of Barbies and even had a Barbie playhouse or dream house. A dream house.

11:01Yes. Yeah. I wonder how long it took your parents to put that together. It was about eight hours for me. Yikes. We're going to have to leave Barbie lab for just a moment since we want to determine the greatest toys of all time or the goat with this episode. We should introduce another doll into the mix. Hi, I'm Polly Pocket. You can open up a case. There's a world for you. In 1983, Polly Pocket was just a small doll whose house was inside a makeup compact. Well, six years later, Bluebird Toys took the doll to market and the itty bitty toy made a very big splash with kids. In the late 90s, Polly Pocket became an official member of the Mattel family, where she got a makeover.

11:44A little bit bigger, more lifelike appearance, and rubber clothes. Josh, do you remember any of the early makeup compact Polly Pockets? No, we were a Polly Pocket era for sure. And then I think there was Mighty Max, which was like a little adventuring boy that was about the same size. Did you ever buy one? I don't think I ever had one. I played with them at friends' houses, though. They were easy to lose. You could really lose one in like a belly button or between couch cushions. Jordan, did you ever have any Mattel Polly pockets? So I also didn't own them, but I remember playing with them at after school care or a friend's house.

12:22And yeah, those rubber dresses like live rent free in my head because it just felt so weird, but like so cool to try to like pull it over because they were so elastic. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. And so like as a kid, it just kind of fascinates you. Like, what is this? So I definitely play with them. Yeah, for sure. Before there were fidget spinners, there were plastic dresses. Chasing the high heels of Barbie, Mattel announced they've got a Polly Pocket movie in the works. You think Polly can generate as much hype or, I mean, are people over Polly Pocket? It's been a long time since, you know, Polly Pocket was on my radar.

13:03That's for sure. It would be interesting to know what's the backstory about it, because like the whole Barbie movie was this like world building and it had like a bigger storyline to it and mission. And I don't know if Polly Pocket has a narrative like that for people. So it would be interesting to see if they make one. But I would kind of be into seeing how they make a rubber dress in real life. This brings us to our first toy face off. If you had to pit Polly Pocket up against Barbie, which doll would you pick? Say that 10 times fast. We're going to have both of you talk it through and ultimately decide on one winner.

13:44Jordan, do you want to go first? Yes. Okay. I'm going to pick Barbie because one thing I didn't mention before is that I had a lot of black Barbies. And I love the diversity in that. I love that like even now with Barbie, there's a Barbie for so many different people depending on your identity. And based off my memory of Polly Pocket, it wasn't necessarily that. So that's why I'm going to go with Barbie on this one. Josh, would you care to weigh in here? Of course. Yeah. So to me, a big point in Polly Pocket's favor, right, is that nobody ever talked about having like severe body image issues developed after seeing Polly Pocket, right?

14:28No girl was like, I wish I were one centimeter high. But I do think ultimately Barbie is an enduring classic. There is, as Jordan mentioned, diversity. She achieved so much in her many professional lives. Homeowner. And was enough of a cultural force to drive this movie to enormous success. I mean, with also great performances and a very charming, funny script. But I think it's got to be Barbie as well. Okay, well, I think it sounds like we have a unanimous decision altogether now. Three, two, one. Barbie. Barbie. There we go. The winner is Barbie in our first round. Now, let's move on with our bracket.

15:11Let's talk about two more dolls. These girls are also members of the Mattel family. I see a pattern. But perhaps a little less dreamy in this case. People can't stop talking about the trailer for the new Barbie movie. But not all dolls live in a dream house. Some are bigger, younger, sadder. Some dolls are American Girl. We're talking about American Girl dolls. Jordan, that clip was from an SNL sketch earlier this year that painted the 18-inch dolls as girls whose lives are a whole lot harder. They're stories based on actual historical events, of course. That's part of the appeal of American Girl dolls.

15:51They even have chapter books that come along with them. And over time, they introduced Girls of the Year and dolls you could get to look just like you. American Girl has also migrated into meme territory with online creators using images of the dolls to comment on current events and culture. Jordan, do you get this vibe from American Girl dolls that are kind of like Barbie's little sister if Barbie and her family lost a doll in the Great Depression or something like that? Oh, man. It's quite the setup, don't you think? I like had an answer and then you kept going. I was like, well, never mind.

16:25I'm going to change my answer. I mean, I feel like American Girl doll is in a whole different category because you did not play with American Girl doll. You accessorized her. You like created your own world for her. You read the books like it was a whole different category. And I think part of that was they were expensive dolls. Like the price point was really high. So it also kind of connoted like, wow, you have an American Girl doll. That's so cool. yeah i was gonna ask you about that uh josh is that your sense that these were just really pricey dolls and people yeah afraid to play with them i remember it being very upscale and not just afraid to play but it was like i think people's parents made sure that they knew like this isn't something you want to bring to the sandbox right like maybe because it's historical you could play very sedentary games right but you didn't play any aggressive games i remember them standing upright right, on their kind of scaffolding most of the time, just watching over the play.

17:25Yeah, yeah. Well, in 2021, American Girl dolls were inducted into the Toy Hall of Fame, and most recently, another beloved doll was also inducted. These adoptable baby dolls had chubby cheeks and hair made of yarn and spawned another toy craze. Cabbage Patch Kids, all the rage in the 80s, are so in demand when they first came out. riots were breaking out at toy stores as people waited hours to get their hands on a doll for their kid. Do you remember this Cabbage Patch craze at all, Josh? I had a Cabbage Patch kid when I was young, but I was born just too late for the craze. So like we had a Cabbage Patch kid that was much less in demand.

18:07My wife over Thanksgiving, we were talking about with her parents what they went through to get her a Cabbage Patch doll and that she remembers to this day, like the name of her Cabbage Patch Kid that she had in, you know, the early 80s. That's that's crazy. Jordan, what about you? Did you catch on to any of this? No, I think I'm too young for this, like they're too late in the game. So it's all historical knowledge for me. You've heard about it, though. I mean, which says something about how much of an impression and impact Cabbage Patch Kids had. Yeah, I think that definitely does say something, especially in terms of the craze about it, that people still kind of talked about Cabbage Patch Kids.

18:49Like it falls in the same category, like the beanie baby craze. Beanie babies, yeah. Yeah, like people just driving all over trying to get one. So, yeah, I think it does say something about its enduring legacy. Right now, we sort of have a face-off here. We have Cabbage Patch Kids on the one hand and American Girl Dolls on the other. Josh, Jordan, why don't y 'all have at it? Jordan, I feel like I should just make you the advocate for American Girl dolls. What would you say in support of American Girl? Okay. So this is my argument. It's very funny that I'm advocating for American Girl doll because I never owned one.

19:30Like, I think that in itself is an argument. But I was chatting with some friends around my age ahead of this, and everyone mentioned American Girl doll, and half the group did not own one. But we always looked at it as, like, this designer item. Oh, wow. That was, like, something that you covet. Yes. Yes, and I think that's kind of the whole idea with toys and what toy companies want kids to feel about their toys. It's like you have to have it. You're begging your parent. You're dreaming about it. And the fact that I'm so far removed from my childhood and still thinking about it in that way is an argument for this is the greatest toy of all time.

20:07Very, very convincing. Now, I'm going to put you on the Cabbage Patch Kids advocacy team here, Josh, since you've had firsthand experience. Of course. So here's what I'm going to say for the Cabbage Patch dolls. The price point was more accessible, more affordable. And you can see the way people were reacting, right? They were doing interstate travel. There was a real craze for them. And so I think that that moment, it was so seismic where while American Girl dolls have been in demand steadily, they never had that moment of cultural saturation and monoculture the way that Cabbage Patch kids did.

20:46All right. So time to determine the goat, the greatest of all toys or dolls, maybe goad. There can be only one. Here we go. The greatest of all dolls. Three, two, one. American Girl. Oh, did I convince you? that's pretty, it's pretty amazing. It was, you did have a very convincing argument, but now I have to ask Josh, why did you, that, that does it, doesn't it? I mean, yes, the cafes. It's, it's a staying power that Jordan mentioned, right? Like, I think people remember that the fad of Cabbage Patch Kids, but I think people really remember the feeling of having or not having an American Girl doll.

21:31There's, there's still a flagship and of item to, to have their own retail space. I think 30 years ago, 20 years ago, I might have gone another way, but just the endurance, the timelessness of American Girl dolls, despite them being from very specific points in time. Yeah, I have to say, I think that y 'all made a great choice there. Now that we've determined the greatest dolls of all time, we're going to shift gears and focus on some of the toys for the boys. That's coming up on Holiday Wars.

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23:38Hey, welcome back. I'm talking with comedian Josh Gondelman and New York Times reporter Jordan Holman. Well, we all know the kids of today are resisting gender norms, and toy makers are definitely playing along. But we're looking back at some iconic toys that came out back when there were stricter rules for who played with what. Let's take a listen to a clip from our series Hasbro vs. Mattel. Wait, wait, hear me out. Barbie's the biggest money spinner ever, right? Why? Because girls don't just get a Barbie, they get all the clothes and accessories too. Now, imagine this. A rugged soldier doll for boys with all the gear sold separately.

24:17No one's done that before. Hmm. That's a pretty good idea. But a doll for boys? I don't know. Let me think it over. Levine spends the weekend wrestling with the idea. And the more he thinks about it, the better it sounds. But a doll, that's the problem. It's 1963, and only girls play with dolls. If you haven't guessed yet, the toy we're talking about is a certain G.I. Joe, the world's first action figure developed by Hasbro, partly as a way to strike back at Mattel. Don Levine is known as the father of G.I. Joe and also for coining the term action figure. From there, the 70s saw the rise of figures developed from TV and movies, hits like Star Wars and all the Marvel movies.

25:12Josh, were you an action figure kid? I was for sure an action figure kid, although my parents were pretty strict or I guess just conscientious about the militarism of G.I. Joe. I think they didn't like the idea of real people with realistic guns. I think if I was insisting on a G.I. Joe, they would have made me get the conscientious objector action figure. So good. Well, now we're going to jump ahead from the 1960s now to the 80s. When everything changed.

25:50Enter Leonardo, Donatello, Raphael, and Michelangelo. Four baby turtles who were exposed to radioactive ooze, became humanoids, and then were trained to become ninjas by a rat named Splinter. The Turtles were developed by comic artists Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, then made into a TV show and action figures. And boy, did those pizza-loving figurines sell. And they're still selling, aided by the new movie that came out this summer, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Mutant Mayhem, which has grossed more than$180 million to date. Josh, I'm going to turn to you first, since I hear you're a fan of the Turtles.

26:30Why do you think they have this enduring popularity? Yeah, I was a big, this was my wheelhouse with action figures too when I was a kid. I was exactly the right age. It was just kind of cartoonish enough that my folks didn't really object to me playing with the toys. I think there is a whimsy to the characters and a nostalgia that is kind of driven from the playfulness of it, right? It combines the kind of karate action stuff with animals. And the characters had really firm personalities, right? I think the G.I. Joes and even the Transformers, which I was very into, their personality was kind of war.

27:09And the Ninja Turtles were fun. They were like kids. And so I think that really keeps kids coming back. I mean, they were always just kind of cutting things up. And I think actually some parents were kind of put off by that. It was like that era where people were protesting because Bart Simpson was too disrespectful. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. Jordan, what about you? Did you ever have Ninja Turtles? I didn't, but I would watch the show, like, so Saturday morning cartoons. And what really stood out to me was just like how vivid they were. Like, the colors were really fun. Just like the pizza. Like, obviously, in real life, you don't see that kind of cheesy pizza.