Best of Business Wars Daily | Salty or Sweet? | 5

0:06If you've strolled down the aisles of any CVS or Walgreens in August, then you've probably encountered shelves bursting with Halloween candy and decorations. And perhaps you're in the camp of people who want to shout, no, it's too early. It's still summer. Or maybe you say, bring it on. Either way, the candy is likely not going anywhere. And if anything, its debut is showing up earlier and earlier each year. And that's because for these retailers, well, they're big business. American consumers spent$3.1 billion on Halloween candy in 2022. That, according to the research platform Statista. In our upcoming series, we explore the rise of CVS and Walgreens, from humble pharmacies to retail giants and major rivals.

0:49And part of what's driven their economic dominance is the way they've started to look both like health care clinics and a kind of big box store, a store where a customer may come in for a pack of Band-Aids and leave with packages of mini Snickers bars and M &M's. Or during spooky season, a pumpkin-shaped Reese's peanut butter cup. You know the ones. Well, today we're going to dig into that trend and take a bite out of what's new in the world of sugary treats. Here to talk about all that and more, comedian Max Fine and New York Times reporter Jordan Holman. Stick around for the best of Business Wars Daily.

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3:35From Wondery, I'm David Brown, and this is the best of Business Wars Daily, where we talk about trends, controversies, and how they affect you, the consumer. and joining us today comedian max fine and new york times reporter jordan holman max jordan welcome hey thanks for having us yeah thanks for having us max you got a podcast called into the minivan which i love the title i just love the title of it i've wanted to have a show called minivan for years and years and years and i'm wondering well what are you going to shove into your minivan what what's tell us more about this podcast yeah it's it's a podcast i do with another comic named Michael Roland and we've been best friends for like almost 20 years now so basically in high school we used to hang out in his minivan listen to music just kind of riff with each other and it's kind of a continuation on that uh it's just old friends that know each other a little too well I love it I love it so you got some uh Aerosmith Sweet Emotion playing in the minivan or what you got a lot of hip-hop lately really yeah which is is uh it's all kinds of different music though um we've got a fun master playlist if you really want to dig through all the songs we've listened to.

4:42Now, I understand your debut full-length comedy special out on October 13th. It's called I Like His Style out on Blonde Medicine. What's it special about? Yeah, it's just kind of a collection of stories and jokes from the last 10 years. All kinds of fun stuff. We've got some, you know, not so heavy on the political, but lots of fun stories. We got some breakup stuff. We got some not breakups. You're going to love it. In fact, I think we have a clip standing by. Let's listen to it. I've been traveling, I've been hanging, I've been going to the mall a lot, dude. I know, do you guys like the mall?

5:16Yeah, a couple people. Okay, I love the mall, dude. I think it's where people go to be themselves. I was, I went to, I do, I really believe that. I went to the big mall, I went to the Mall of America. Hell yeah, it rules, it's the cool, there are four hot topics there. I went, and he, so, it's cool. And sandwiched between One Hot Topic and a Spencer's Gifts was a store called the Man Cave Store, which is a store built for men that know they're about to be divorced. That's what the Man Cave Store is. They have everything you're going to need in there, dude. They have, like, sports bobbleheads. They have universal remotes.

5:57They have Hallmark cards you can send to your kids that are like, I'm sorry I missed your 10th birthday. And then they have one you can send the next day that's like, I'm in your 11th. I know how old you are. I hope you got this before your mom did. That's so great. It's so weird to listen to that with other people. Jordan, you cover the retail industry and consumerism for the New York Times. I'm sure you've run into malls with four hot topics. You have to spend a lot of time in malls with your reporting. Absolutely. And it's really funny. I'm from the Midwest. So I actually grew up going to the Mall of America a lot.

6:37So definitely know about like all of the different stores in there. So that was funny. But yeah, in my day to day, I usually am just like door stopping people outside of stores. If I'm working on a story about a certain retailer, I'm just basically like standing by the door of that retailer looking to see if anyone's leaving with bags. You're haunting shoppers. I see. Yeah. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it. Yeah. What do you usually ask folks as they're coming out? Well, it can really range. If I'm trying to get a gauge of the economy and how people are feeling about spending, it's usually trying to throw out one big idea, one big question to get them to stop.

7:17So either asking, is this a shopping spree or is this just something that you need right away? Or if I'm doing a story just about the mall in general, maybe a question of like, why are you here compared to at home on your couch buying this. You sort of get a sneak peek into the way people actually feel. In fact, I want to turn to some of your reporting for the New York Times. You had a story about how student loans coming due could affect consumer spending. In case anyone missed it, this month people with federal student loans have to start repaying them after a three-year hiatus due to the pandemic.

7:49And you write about how the timing makes the retail industry nervous because as we talked about at the top of the program, this is typically a time of big spending from Halloween straight on out till the end of December, at least. Jordan, tell us a little bit more about what you found when you started asking consumers about the way that they're thinking about spending. For sure. Yeah. So the fact that people have to start repaying loans after three years, it just like becomes the latest wrench thrown into people's spending habits. And so when I was chatting with borrowers about how they're kind of planning for it, I just love how one woman was like, this is going to eat into my fun budget, like F-U-N.

8:28The idea that she spent her money going to concerts, traveling, all of these things she could afford when she didn't have these other expenses. And now that has to go to the wayside. And also when I was asking her about, okay, what does it mean for the holiday season? Are you going to gift less? And that was absolutely what she was planning to do. And that really echoed what I heard from other folks. Interesting. Well, so, I mean, I know that ultimately a lot of economists didn't think this shift would dip us into a recession, but it could still hurt. Are you seeing retailers changing anything when it comes to their approach for this holiday season?

9:06Yeah, you definitely see retailers say they're leaning into the idea of value, really highlighting that they have the best deals or trying to make a case for why you should shop at JCPenney's compared to their competitors. and Macy's saying shop it here compared to their competitors. So you're definitely hearing that word a lot more. It's not necessarily a case of huge discounts, but I think the messaging about it's okay to spend, you'll hear that a lot more from retailers. Well, you used the word JCPenney. I mean, that's the first time I've heard JCPenney out of anyone's mouth. But that does speak to a kind of vibe that we sort of seem to be stumbling into.

9:48Max, do you have a fund budget? uh you know some would say that i only have a fun budget uh that's that's the problem anyone with a minivan has got to have a fun budget if i could afford the minivan we'd be in a different conversation but no um i would love to say that i have a fun budget and a savings account but in reality it's just kind of i feel like uh in the last few years it's been a lot of playing catch up ever since the pandemic um so my fun budget is kind of whatever's in my wallet at the time Jordan, how are you doing when it comes to consumer spending? Are you able to keep some of those discretionary purchases at bay?

10:25You know, I feel like I really leaned into all of the fun, which is like the opposite. Like I'm just coming off of my - Comfort spending maybe? That's where I'm at too. You know, I saw Beyonce at Renaissance in Houston, so a lot of travel there. And then I have like weddings I have to go to. So I'm actually like looking and being like, I'm doing the opposite of what I should be doing based off of my reporting. But here we are. We're talking with Jordan Holman, who's a journalist for The New York Times, also comedian Max Fine. Grab some popcorn because we're about to bite into an area where consumer spending appears to be stronger than ever.

11:02Stay with us.

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12:37Hey, welcome back to the Best of Business Wars Daily. We're talking with journalist Jordan Holman and comedian Max Fine. And we are in something of a snacky mood today. And so is the rest of the country, it turns out. Americans have always loved snacks, of course. But post-pandemic, we're snacking like never before. Research group Serkana says half of us are eating three or more snacks per day. And snack sales are up by 10%. Before we get into the big players in the snack scene, I have to ask you first, Max, you got a favorite snack? You know, this is not by any means a paid ad, but I have really been loving those Trader Cho's Kachua Pepe puffs.

13:16Interesting. They're really good. Well, what are these things? Are they like rice puffs, like Cheeto kind of puffs or what? It's more like Cheeto kind of puffs and it's just cheese and pepper or whatever they put in there and it's delicious. Oh, wow. And it sounds pretty spicy too, huh? It's got a little kick, not too much. Yeah. You could handle it. I promise you could handle it. I think I'd like to think I could. Did you bring any snacks with you to the taping? Yeah, I've got some Stacy's pita chips behind the computer. Yep. Yep. Let's see. What do I have? The garlic and herbs today. Garlic and herbs.

13:47Nice. Yep. Yep. So, you know, hoping to get into a little bit of that off mic. Jordan, what about you? What's your snack? So recently I've been snacking on Lucky Charms, which makes me feel like a seven-year-old. Magically delicious. Yeah. Yeah. But my boyfriend brought them into the home and I was like, wow, I have not thought about the cereal in so long. And so now I'm a bit obsessed. What got you into it other than your boyfriend? Is this something that you'd been dreaming about or no? I think it was just like this burst of nostalgia. I was like, oh, my goodness, these marshmallows. And then it makes me think about like summer camp and all of this kind of stuff.

14:27So I think that's why I've still kept buying them, even, you know, once we ate them all. Let's dig in a little more to the specifics of who is snacking the most and listen to a clip from Business Wars Daily. Millennials and Gen Zers are eating about 10 percent more snacks than other generations, often in place of meals because of their busy lives, researchers found. Foods like granola bars and cereal aren't just for breakfast anymore. Folks are eating them all day long, Axios reports. One snack food maker is even using the term smeals to describe the phenomenon, according to that report. But it turns out snackers won't just eat any old sweet or salty craving buster.

15:06The majority of them want foods that are fun and full of flavor. So snack food makers are working hard to appeal to all tastes. Hershey unveiled a plant-based Reese's Peanut Butter Cup this year for people who are vegan or interested in limiting their dairy intake. The snack game is so appetizing, even Campbell Soup Company has been cooking up plans to expand its snack division. In March, a 12 percent increase in second quarter sales prompted CEO Mark Klaus to call snacks the, quote, star of Campbell's portfolio, Food Navigator reports. The company also introduced what it called the, quote, first to market air fried snack with Kettle Brand's first kettle cooked air fried potato chip, which boasts 30 percent less fat than original versions.

15:53max uh i mentioned smeals earlier and somehow uh it appears that uh phrase or that word is not caught on you don't say broadly yeah what do you think the deal is with smeals uh you smeal sounds gross uh smeal sounds like a name for the gum stuck to your bottom of your shoe like it's not appealing uh but you got some smeal on the bottom exactly right everybody's been spieled before. It just doesn't seem like a valuable word to use. Jordan, we mentioned in the story that Hershey's is building a plant-based peanut butter cup. What about those labels, plant-based, vegan, dairy-free? Are they really drawing in consumers when it comes to snacks, do you think?

16:37Yes. I think that just speaks to this moment of people are trying to find a healthier option and those words signal that to folks. um i always find question with that because you have to then ask what exactly about it is plant based what makes it vegan all of that that you dig into that a normal consumer might not but you can definitely see that over the past 10 years or so there's like an explosion of here's the normal product and here's the plant-based one i used to live in the south and when i was chatting with a friend about this i was like well why do you we need to have all these options.

17:13And she made a good point that, you know, when you're on a long road trip and maybe the only thing is, you know, a convenience store for miles and miles and miles and you're vegan or vegetarian, that's a great option. So it's always good to remind yourself that it's addressing a need that a lot of people didn't have when it came to snacking. I guess that's true, but I always wondered, you know, as you were saying a little bit earlier, just what makes this vegan? I wonder if this trend is here to stay, if people are kind of getting suckered in by, you know, a little bit of, I don't want to say false advertising, but puffery perhaps.

17:48Are companies profiting from this, you think? Absolutely. When a company launches like a plant-based or vegan product, the press release is always saying, you know, this is how many people have asked us for this, or, you know, kind of leaning into the, you asked us for this. And so I think there is validity to that. But is it exactly what people ask for? Did they ask for that high sugar intake when you take away something else? So I think that's always the next question to look into. That's true. Max, what about these trends and whether or not they resonate with you? Something tells me they don't.

18:28Well, I'm a mark. I will believe anything I'm told. uh the the air fried kettle chips i've had them uh i don't know how much i buy into it but in the moment if i'm in a store i'll totally buy it even though like like would you put now wait a minute would you buy the like the air fried over the regular chips if totally really yes i did uh and the thing is like i don't know if it's better or if it's just something like you know there's no need for a bag of potato chips to tell me that they're vegan at no point did i assume they weren't and every time like you know I hear something like vegan on a bag of potato chips I'm like well yeah I'll buy it even though I'm not actually considering the fact that it's just ideally potatoes and salt yeah does it matter price like if it's much more expensive than the regular um usually if I'm at a place that has an option like that it's all going to be the same price as everything else at least like when it comes to like air fried kettle chips they're the same price as the regular ones.

19:26It's kind of the idea, though, of I don't really care what I'm putting into my body so long as I think it's better for me. It's the whole like diet Coke argument, right? Like we know diet Coke is not good for you. Well, it's not. Well, I didn't mean to burst your bubble, but it's not ideal. And yeah, it is a bummer. But yeah, it's like the idea of, you know, at that point now I'll drink a regular Coke over a diet one just because. Really? Yeah, totally. It tastes better. And I don't have to fool myself into thinking that this is worse for me. I love that. Well, in the Business Wars Daily story, we were talking about how important the Gen Z and millennial generations are in terms of consumption in the snack industry.

20:10But, you know, we've also heard something else about these generations, that they're spending on experiences over things. and i wonder if snacks are an experience i was thinking about this going into 7-eleven the other day and i saw this tortilla chip it was one tortilla chip that was in a bag and apparently have you seen this it's like the hot one yeah yeah it's the one that apparently has uh they've been taken off the shelves in some areas because it's have you tried it i i did i did try it how'd you do? I made it halfway through the chip. Sure, sure, sure. I know. I mean, my kids watched. I mean, they were prodding me on, right?

20:49And I'm sure they had a good laugh. Yeah, they did have a good laugh. They wouldn't try it. What constitutes an experience when it comes to snacks? I wonder if there's something there if you're trying to tease out why it is the Gen Z and millennial generation seem to be really sort of taking the lead when it comes to snacking. I mean I think I could be wrong but it feels like you know eating that hot I've had that chip too have you and how far did you make it oh I ate the whole thing and then ran around Cincinnati Ohio looking for a glass of milk but it's it's the kind of thing where you know did your kids film you while you ate it yeah of course and you know that's a that's something that they can put on social media Instagram or Twitter and the experiential stuff is something that can be shared with other people, it feels like.

21:38You think that's what it's about, Jordan? I mean, that it's kind of in a way it becomes a social media thing. Absolutely. But even before that, I was thinking when I was a kid, we used to do challenges to see if you could handle the like flaming hot Cheetos. I remember. Yeah. All we needed was a smartphone. But I think that just speaks to like kids doing extreme things and finding food funny and fun. Yeah. And then the social media element just like exposes those conversations to everyone. And then you can get in on it and realize, you know, it's a national trend compared to just within your friend circles.

22:13I also think about things like the museum of ice cream. Oh, I've been there. Yeah. Classic experience. So eating. So, yeah, I think that's a good example of those two merging where I'm eating ice cream. I'm probably going to this museum around 7 p.m. So maybe it's going to replace my dinner and I'm taking photos and I'm posting them. Like it's the perfect win, win, win. You're listening to the best of Business Wars daily. Keep that sweet tooth handy because we're talking all things candy when we return.

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24:48Welcome back. I'm talking with comedian Max Fine and New York Times retail reporter Jordan Holman about all your favorite sweet treats. So Max, I have to ask, can you judge a candy by its wrapper? Do you think? You can judge an old candy by its wrapper, I think. You know, if I see a butterscotch, I know there's a grandmother around the corner, but if I see, you know, I have oftentimes been fooled by candy. I am a big candy guy. So my favorite old candy, old time candy, Atomic Fireballs. You ever had Atomic Fireballs? Oh, yeah. I was a Lemonhead guy, though, if we're talking the hard candies like that.

25:28Fireball's nice, but at a certain point, I just want to kind of relax. Jordan, as a kid, can you remember a time when you absolutely had to have a certain candy just because of the packaging? Okay, so would you believe that I've never eaten candy? No. Ever? Ever. Really? For real? For real. I know nothing about candy culture. My gosh. So have you ever been to a dentist? Is that, I mean, you must have, I mean, that's amazing. Have you ever been to a movie theater? I've done it all. Like, even as a kid, my cousins tried to tie me down once and try to force feed me candy. And I held strong. No, wait a minute.

26:09Why have you avoided candy for all this time? So it's interesting. It wasn't an active thing I tried to do. My parents, I think, forgot to feed me candy. As a kid, I'm an only child. So by the time I went to kindergarten, I was already out of candy culture. So I just never ate it. That's crazy. I get that. Thank you. I was not a candy guy until like three years ago and it became like a staple of my diet. What did you eat instead of candy, Max? Salt. Anything with salt. I don't know. You know, I just wasn't a sweets guy. And then three years ago or so, two years ago, I just started Sour Patch Kids became a permanent staple in my cabinets.