Encore: Tesla vs Detroit | Accelerate Faster | 1

26 Apr 2023 · 39 min

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Business Wars

Tesla vs. Detroit | Episode 1 - Encore: Accelerate Faster

Podcast Overview

  • Title: Business Wars
  • Description: Explores the competitive landscape between major companies across various industries, focusing on the motivations of their leaders and the outcomes of their battles.

Episode Summary

  • Episode Title: Encore: Tesla vs. Detroit | Accelerate Faster
  • Key Themes:
  • The emergence of Tesla as a disruptor in the automobile industry.
  • The clash between traditional auto manufacturers and innovative startups.
  • The challenges and triumphs of Elon Musk and Tesla Motors in the face of adversity.

Key Points

The Early Days of Tesla

  • Background Context:
  • In the 1990s, U.S. automakers faced pressure to produce low-emission vehicles but consumers preferred gas-guzzlers.
  • By 2003, Tesla entered the market with electric vehicles (EVs) that were both high-performance and desirable.
  • Elon Musk's Struggles:
  • Musk faced significant financial crises across his companies (SpaceX, SolarCity, and Tesla).
  • A pivotal meeting in November 2008 highlighted Musk's desperation, revealing that Tesla had only weeks left of funding.

The Birth of Tesla Motors

  • Founders: Martin Eberhard and Mark Tarpening, engineers aiming to create a revolutionary electric sports car.
  • Initial Concept:
  • Envisioned a lightweight, high-performance EV to compete with traditional gas vehicles.
  • Incorporated Tesla Motors in July 2003 after recognizing challenges faced by traditional automakers regarding EVs.
  • Funding and Vision:
  • In March 2004, Elon Musk invested $6.5 million, becoming chairman and intensifying the company's ambitions to redefine the auto industry.

Challenges Faced

  • Production Issues:
  • Tesla struggled with manufacturing costs and quality control, leading to production delays.
  • The cost of producing the Roadster exceeded initial projections significantly.
  • Internal Conflicts:
  • Musk's vision clashed with Eberhard's leadership style, resulting in Eberhard's demotion and eventual departure from the company.
  • Differences in approach led to tensions, notably regarding design and production priorities.

The Roadster Launch

  • Debut: The Tesla Roadster was launched in July 2006, receiving positive reviews and high-profile endorsements.
  • Sales Success: Initial orders surpassed expectations, with notable figures like Arnold Schwarzenegger purchasing the vehicle.

Competitive Landscape

  • Detroit's Reaction:
  • Traditional automakers underestimated Tesla, viewing it as a minor threat.
  • Bob Lutz from GM recognized Tesla's potential and acknowledged the need for GM to adapt to electric vehicle trends, introducing the Chevrolet Volt as a response.

Financial Turmoil and Recovery

  • Financial Crisis Impact: By late 2008, the recession impacted all automakers, including Tesla, leading to a cash crunch.
  • Government Support: Tesla secured a crucial loan from the government to support the production of the Model S, positioning itself for growth amidst Detroit's struggles.

Key Takeaways

  • Innovation vs. Tradition: The episode outlines the tension between innovative startups like Tesla and established giants like GM and Ford, emphasizing differing approaches to the evolving auto market.
  • Leadership Dynamics: The rise of Elon Musk demonstrates how visionary leadership can both drive a company forward and create internal strife.
  • Market Timing: The timing of Tesla's market entry coincided with shifting public interest in environmentally friendly vehicles, underscoring the importance of aligning innovation with consumer demand.

Conclusion The episode illustrates the dramatic evolution of Tesla from a fledgling startup to a significant player in the automotive industry, setting the stage for ongoing battles between legacy manufacturers and disruptive innovators. ```

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Transcript

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0:00Tesla helped make Elon Musk the richest man on the planet, giving him the power to take Twitter by force. But how did he amass such a fortune building electric cars, once considered the ultimate boondoggle of the automobile industry? To try and answer that question, we're rerunning this series now, along with a new Business Wars spinoff miniseries, Flipping the Bird, Elon vs. Twitter, about Musk's Twitter takeover.

0:35It's November 2008 at an upscale steakhouse in Beverly Hills, California. Elon Musk is in trouble. He's meeting with his trusted confidant and investor, Jason Calacanis. How you doing, Elon? I've been better, Jason. Musk's trifecta of companies is in catastrophic financial crisis. SpaceX, SolarCity, and his five-year-old electric car startup Tesla are close to going under. To keep his empire alive, Musk burned through investor funds and virtually every penny of the millions he made from selling PayPal. It's bad. Very bad. But it turns out things could get worse. The housing market tanked a few months ago, and the country is in a major recession.

1:27As Calacanis reaches for a breadstick, he cuts to the chase. I read somewhere that Tesla has about a month of funding left. Is that true? Musk slowly shakes his head. No, Jason, that's not true. Not true at all. Calacanis smiles, looking relieved. Musk locks eyes with him. It's more like three weeks. Calacanis grimaces. I'll be honest. I'm living off of loans from friends. I'm writing personal checks to cover payroll. I'm barely sleeping. If I'm going to make this work, I've got to speed up the production of the Roadster. The sleek, wicked, fast EV Roadster debuted in 2006 with a limited run of 100, which sold out in less than three weeks.

2:16Respectable, but far from profitable. Musk is ignoring his stake. He's getting fired up. But I'm also getting serious s*** about the price tag, Jason. Okay, the car's$109 ,000, but developing new technology is expensive. When we can produce the car in volume, I know the price is going to come down. I get it. What about the Model S? How's that going? Musk's face suddenly brightens. Glad you asked. Check this out. Musk pulls out his BlackBerry and shows Calacanis a series of mock-ups of a new EV. He's impressed. It's a sleek fastback sedan. We can manufacture this for$60 ,000. Maybe even just$50 ,000.

3:01This is our flagship model and it'll scare the s*** out of Detroit. Classic Elon, Calacanis thinks. This guy always has a new seemingly impossible vision. And his approach is succeed or die trying. Tell you what, Elon, you pick up the tab tonight and I'll buy two of the Model S's. Like so many, he's buying into Musk's dream. And Musk dreams big. He wants to save the Earth. He wants to colonize Mars. But at this particular moment, he's targeting Detroit. It's a powerful, century-old auto industry built on gas-fueled internal combustion engines. While Musk sees Detroit as the walking dead, Detroit views Musk as a rich hobbyist who could easily be crushed if he actually posed a threat.

3:57This will be a battle of speed versus heft. and they have both grossly underestimated each other.

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5:53From Wondery, I'm David Brown and this is Business Wars.

6:19In the 1990s, the government leaned on automakers to make low-emission vehicles. Ford, Chrysler, Honda, General Motors, Nissan, and Toyota all introduced electric vehicles. But what they delivered and what consumers wanted were two different things. Consumers wanted an electric car with the feel, look, and roar of gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs. But the sharply scaled-back, odd-looking offerings left consumers cold. So Detroit came to an inevitable conclusion. Why build cars that people won't buy when what they're already making is so profitable? In 2002, Elon Musk's Tesla Motors arrived on the scene to challenge that premise with environmentally friendly, affordable, high-performance cars that people actually want.

7:11Motor City smirked as Musk piloted Tesla through crushing financial crises, spectacular quality control disasters, and his own shocking public displays of bad behavior. But eventually, he got some things right. And in the process, Musk didn't just disrupt the industry. He redefined it. So much so that virtually every carmaker is trying to wedge to the front of the EV pack. By 2026, the global sales of EVs are projected to be over a trillion dollars. And with a purse that fat, everyone is pressing the pedal to the metal for pole position. But before all this comes to pass, before Elon Musk is even on the scene, there are just two engineering nerds noodling with the idea of improving electric vehicles.

8:06This is Episode 1. Accelerate faster.

8:16It's a lovely spring afternoon in early 2003 in Woodside, a small community in the heart of Silicon Valley, California. Martin Eberhard and Mark Tarpening are computer engineers and business partners. They like to meet for lunch in a bucolic local park to dream about their future. So what's next on the agenda? Don't laugh, but I think we should do something big that'll make a difference to the planet. Sure, what about something manageable like, I don't know, global warming? Eberhard smiles. These guys are friends with a history of success. Back in 1997, they created a groundbreaking electronic book reader that made them rich.

8:57The Rocketbook. They're well-versed in cutting-edge consumer electronics. I'm thinking an electric sports car. Super efficient, but seductive. Yeah, and that's something Detroit will never do. GM did actually make an electric vehicle, the two-seater EV1, but it was unprofitable, embarrassing, and short-lived. Eventually, GM hauled them all back and turned them into scrap. You know, I once drove an EV1. It looked like some mutant machine from Mars. The battery pack must weigh a ton and was wedged between the two seats. Only went 75 miles without needing a charge. Makes it a pretty tough sell for people used to getting 200 or 300 miles on a tank of gas.

9:43But it was powerful, right? I'll give it that. Zero to 60 in eight seconds. You could probably get it down, too. I bet there's a market for an EV sports car that's really fast and has a long travel range. Yeah, look at the Prius. It's certainly not a sports car. and they're not cheap, but it's really catching on. The thing's great with fuel economy, and you know who buys them, right? People with money. But what if we take that one step further? You know, instead of a hybrid like the Prius, we build a lightweight, pure EV. We could probably do that using lithium-ion batteries and, you know, make it sexy.

10:21They exchange an aha look as the gears in their heads start spinning. Just weeks later, on July 1, 2003, they incorporate their new electric car company. They come up with a name they think sounds cool, borrowed from a brilliant long-dead Serbian-American inventor. Tesla. Eberhard and Tarpening push full tilt to create their electric car. But as they would discover, Detroit automakers had some good reasons to avoid EVs. The cost of electric batteries alone could raise the sticker price by tens of thousands of dollars, pushing them out of reach for lots of customers. And Detroit has one seemingly insurmountable advantage.

11:09As far back as the 1920s, the oil industry ensured the Model Ts rolling off the assembly line had mile after mile of filling stations on American roads. EV charging stations are as rare as unicorns in the United States. It seemed like an impossible equation to solve, making an EV with lightweight batteries that would have the driving range of a gas-powered vehicle at roughly the same price. After Eberhard and Tarpening established Tesla Motors, they immediately hit their first wall. They know next to nothing about the car industry. And they don't have a factory. Hell, they've never even built a car.

11:54Not knowing what they don't know, however, these two Silicon Valley nerds go off-road and come up with a whole new paradigm. One that turns the Detroit approach on its head. After all, who needs a factory when you can outsource everything? They'll hire the small, nearly defunct California-based electric car company AC Propulsion to build the motor. They'll contract the UK carmaker Lotus to assemble the sports car and drop in the engine. As for dealership franchises, that's so Detroit. An unnecessary expense. No, Tesla will sell their vehicles directly through the internet. Now, all Tesla Motors needs is money.

12:43Mulling through possible investors. The name Elon Musk comes up. Musk has money. In 2002, he made$165 million from the sale of PayPal to eBay. And a few years ago at Stanford, Eberhard and Tarpening watched Musk lecture enthusiastically about sending mice to Mars. They figure Musk is just eccentric enough to be a definite maybe.

13:16It's March 2004 at SpaceX headquarters in El Segundo, California. Martin Eberhard is led to a glass meeting room. Come on in.

13:29Eberhard shakes hands with Musk and sits back on a small couch next to a shelf filled with airplane models. Musk is dressed casually and unshaven. So, Martin, a successful electric sports car needs to appeal to smart, influential people who care about the environment. That's where you start. Manufacture and sell in small numbers, create a buzz, and then you make a car for the mainstream buyers. Eberhard is taken aback for a moment. It's like Musk has been a worm in his brain. See, Detroit has it backwards. They're giving up on EVs. They're dedicated to internal combustion, f***ing 19th century technology.

14:11They don't get the future. I couldn't agree more, Elon. What do you need to make it happen? Eberhard takes a deep breath and runs through his pitch to create the vehicle they're calling the Roadster. It'll be the coolest high-performance sports car in the world. Design-wise, it'll be the polar opposite of the EV1. And it will save the world. Musk listens intently. He's waiting for the ask. So we're going to need$25 million until we break even in 2006, Elon. But right now, we need$7 million to make the prototype. They work on the project for nearly three hours. Musk is clearly excited by the idea.

14:58But Eberhard still hasn't gotten an answer. Is Musk investing or not? Finally, Musk leans toward Eberhard. I'm in, Martin. I'll put up six and a half million, and I'll be chairman of the board. Part of the deal. I don't see any problem with that. One more thing. We need to close this deal in ten days. My wife's having a C-section. Twins. I gotta focus on that. Eberhard leaves the room, speechless. Until today, every time he shared his dream with someone, he'd been met with deep skepticism. Now, he's found a believer, one who's willing to put skin in the game.

15:46Lori Yoler is a Tesla Motors board member and a good friend of Eberhard. She's well-connected to Silicon Valley's venture capital investors. But she hasn't had much success selling them on the electric car. Yoler is driving home in Silicon Valley. She glances at her phone. Caller ID says it's Eberhardt. What's up, Martin? Great news, Laurie. Elon Musk is on board for six and a half mil, and he's the new CEO. Yoler is momentarily stunned. Wow, that's terrific. But Elon Musk? Mr. SpaceX? Exactly. Hey, what's the problem? Look, I've heard Musk can be tough to deal with. He's smart and ambitious as hell, sure, but he's stubborn and...

16:37Let's just say he's got an ego on him. He's also got a fat wallet, and he seems to really understand what Tesla's all about. Okay, but FYI, from what I know, the board at PayPal gave him the boot because he fought with co-founders and wanted to micromanage everything. I hear you, but trust me, Lori, actually... Now, don't trust me. Call him yourself. See what you think. You can bet I will, Martin. A few days later, Yoler connects with Musk. To her surprise, she agrees with Eberhard's assessment. Musk convinces her all he wants to be is a wealthy board member of Tesla Motors. The deal closes. When the tiny Tesla group gathers to toast Musk's angel funding, They're on top of the world.

17:24They have an independent company on a noble mission. They answer to no one. But Eberhard and company are in for a shock.

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19:45It's the 4th of July 2005 in Woodside, California. Musk is out of town, but the small Tesla team is partying in Martin Eberhard's backyard. And they're not just celebrating Independence Day either. Hey, everybody, listen up. All right, you guys, we did it. Here's to the first working roadster. Fantastic work, people. Fantastic. Just weeks ago, the team completed the prototype. Musk took a test drive and was so pleased, he invested an additional$9 million. But Mark Tarpening can't stop thinking about a problem. He puts down his sparkler and clears his throat. Look, I don't want to put a damper on things, but...

20:35Well, we know that the lithium-ion batteries are the power answer, but we also need to face the fact that when you string them together, a random bad cell could ignite. Right, Mark. But look, the odds are like, what, one in a million. Tell you what. Let's tape some batteries together with a heating wire and see what happens. Right now. It's a perfect day to explode things, right? Minutes later, they've got 20 batteries in a small pit in the yard. Okay, let her rip.

21:15The party mood sobers up quickly as the experiment sinks in. Tarpening stares at the toxic fire and swallows hard. That was 20 batteries. The roadster will have 7 ,000. This could obliterate the company. I told Elon we'd have the car ready for buyers by early next year. How's that even possible? The implications are clear. If they can't solve the deadly battery issue, they might as well call Tesla quits and leave the field to Detroit. In the search for a solution, Tesla engineers blow up a lot of batteries. But in the process, they break technological ground by creating a cooling system and a way to avoid even a single battery cell from overheating.

22:06Musk takes the wheel from here. With the bravado of a professional wrestler, he's bragging on the upcoming Roadster, teasing its debut. But General Motors Vice Chairman of Product Development, Bob Lutz, sees him as a loudmouth huckster. Lutz is a shrewd veteran executive who has worked for Ford, Chrysler, and now GM. He knows hucksters, and he has little patience for all this hype around Musk.

22:39It's December 2005 in Detroit. Lutz sits in his spacious office at GM corporate headquarters, puffing on an expensive cigar, scowling through the clouds of smoke. There's a monstrous V16 engine mounted behind him on a pedestal like a trophy head. His top staffer sits across from him, squinting through the haze, waiting for the boss to speak. Lutz is a former Marine, and he commands respect. We made a mistake with the EV1, and that failure cost the company nearly a billion dollars. Yeah, talk about bad press. And Toyota is rubbing salt on our wounds with that damn Prius. They're getting worshipped for being environmentally conscious while we churn out gas-sucking trucks the size of tanks.

23:26Lutz can't bring himself to say it. But GM lost$8.6 billion this year while Toyota, buoyed by Prius, made$9 billion in profits. He tosses a newspaper across the desk. Look at this headline. Apparently the climate is out to kill us all. We both know this global warming thing is a bunch of BS, but the public is interested in this whole green push. GM needs to be viewed as part of that. You think we need to compete with Toyota on the hybrid front? Yeah, we need a Prius fighter. But I'm also hearing a lot about Tesla's electric engines using lithium-ion batteries. Laptop batteries, for crying out loud.

24:09Tesla? Come on. They haven't even debuted a car yet, Bob. We're GM. They're a blip on our radar. Maybe a blip now. But what if Tesla can make an effective, efficient battery? We'll need an answer to that. EVs aren't going to just disappear, and we can't make the same mistake twice.

24:31It's July of 2006 at a star-studded event in a hangar at the Santa Monica airport. Tesla is debuting two red and black roadsters. Among the 350 guests hand-picked by Musk are Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, Disney CEO Michael Eisner, and environmentalist and actor Ed Begley Jr. The guests circle the roadsters admiringly. The vehicle looks as irresistible as any sports car on the road. Guests are invited to take test drives. When they hit the accelerator, they're blown away. The Roadster zips from zero to 60 in four seconds, in silence, without a whiff of fumes. It sails around the airport tarmac like some ride from the future.

25:24Musk steps forward and the crowd goes quiet. Until today, all electric cars have sucked. By the end of the night, 20 people plunked down$100 ,000 each to reserve cars. Three weeks later, the initial limited run of 100 Roadsters is sold out, based only on press and word of mouth. Among the buyers are George Clooney, Leonardo DiCaprio, Matt Damon, and Governor Schwarzenegger. In the coming weeks, the spotlight is increasingly on Eberhard. He's featured on TV interviews and highlighted in press coverage. He's eating it up. To commemorate the moment, his wife buys him vanity license plates that read Mr.

26:17Tesla. But all that attention includes scrutiny from a very tough audience, Elon Musk. In late summer of 2006, with interest in the roadster growing at full tilt, Musk becomes consumed with what he says are design flaws. He meets with Eberhard on the factory floor. Musk slowly circles the prototype like a predator. her. Look, Martin, the cars are hard to climb into. My wife has a very hard time getting in. But she's pregnant, Elon. The door... I know. We need to lower the doorframe. And the seats are seriously uncomfortable. And the door latches. They should be electronic, not push button. Come on, man.

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27:04Eberhard takes a deep breath and tries to go into zen mode. These are good ideas, Elon, but customized seats will cost a million dollars to develop, and so will the latches. Lowering the frame, that's two million dollars there. Musk ignores him, and the dashboard looks f***ing cheap. Eberhard is at the breaking point. He stares at Musk. Elon, please. This is all low priority stuff. We've only got nine months to put this car into production, and we're still dealing with serious transmission issues and stability problems. I can't believe you don't share my concerns, Martin. Please just get it f***ing done.

27:46Musk stalks away as Eberhard stands dumbfounded. In November, Eberhard has news for the Tesla board. Bad news. The original cost of building each roadster has ballooned from$49 ,000 to$83 ,000. Plus, manufacturing will be pushed back from the summer to the fall of 2007. Despite these setbacks, Musk is already talking up the next Tesla vehicle. The Model S will follow Musk's three-step plan to go from making a pricey, high-performance sports car to creating an affordable luxury sedan to a mass-produced, mainstream vehicle. But the Model S is not just a transitional vehicle in the Tesla lineup. Musk knows it has to be a success, and that will stoke Tesla's stock.

28:44The company needs that because in 2007, Tesla is in survival mode. Musk wants to take the company public in 2008 because it desperately needs a cash infusion from investors. Or the company will bleed out. The roadster's price tag has skyrocketed yet again to$140 ,000. Musk, the lead Tesla investor, blames much of the problem on what he views as Eberhard's inexperience as a CEO. Musk believes Tesla has outgrown him. In August, Musk, backed by the board, demotes Eberhard to president of technology, meaning he's pushed out to pasture with few significant duties. He's replaced by a series of interim CEOs to oversee the Roadster's debut.

29:37In December, Martin Eberhard, the man referred to as the face and conscience of the company, the guy with Mr. Tesla license plates, leaves the business he co-founded. He's wounded and pissed off. Working relentlessly, the Tesla team tweaks designs and renegotiates supplier contracts, reducing production costs for the Roadster. Finally, after months of blown deadlines, the first one rolls out in February of 2008. With GM's EV1 left for roadkill, the Roadster is the only highway-capable EV on the market. Reviews are near ecstatic, heralding a game-changing moment in electric car history. Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson took one out for a spin and marvels as he floors it.

30:37God almighty! 12 ,500 RPM! I cannot believe this! This car is electric! Literally. Not bad from a motor that's the size of a watermelon and only has one moving part. Orders for the$109 ,000 sports car stream in. Musk is already focusing on the all-electric Model S. It'll be part SUV, part sedan. He envisions a unique vehicle to best the gas guzzlers coming from traditional automakers like BMW, Toyota, and GM. Detroit CEOs watch Tesla's rollercoaster ride of near-death plunges and sky-high success with horror. It now appears the four-year-old company might be steering the automotive world into his vision of an all-electric existence.

31:39But the key to everything is money. Investment bank Goldman Sachs Group has agreed to put up$100 million to launch production of the Model S by 2011. And that would carry Tesla toward the pot of gold, going public. Then, just as these elements are lining up, a bomb drops that might not level just Tesla, but the giants of Detroit, too.

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34:24It's September 2008 at Tesla headquarters in San Carlos, California. Elon Musk has summoned his senior staffers to a come-to-Jesus meeting. Okay, everybody, the recession is hitting every car market hard, including us. We're going to have to make some tough financial choices to survive. The subprime mortgage crisis has become a national financial catastrophe. Investment funding for a fledgling car company has all but disappeared. Musk has put in virtually all he has left, $20 million for a total investment of$75 million into Tesla. But that's just a Band-Aid. First, I'm taking over as CEO, and we're looking at major layoffs.

35:10We need to get the Model S design out to potential buyers and hope more deposits come in. That funding will hopefully allow us to make it to production. Tesla's head of marketing frowns and speaks up. Elon, we're still trying to get roadsters out the door. We're nowhere close to producing the Model S. And you're talking about spending roadster deposits to produce the Model S? I'm sorry, Elon, but is it even ethical for us to do that? What no one in the room knows is that Tesla has already spent millions in Roadster deposits to stay afloat. Let me break it down for you. We do this or we die. By late October, Tesla is down to a paltry half a million dollars.

35:57Just making payroll is on the line, and bankruptcy is looming. Musk's electric dream is running on fumes. Then, in late November, Tesla gets a shot in the arm of$40 million from existing investors. In January 2009, the company gets another crucial bump when A.G. Daimler comes calling. And it doesn't hurt that the Daimler deal is worth$40 million. Four months later, the company invests another$50 million in Tesla. In March, the Model S prototype has its coming-out party at Musk's SpaceX plant. The car is everything he promised, a sleek, beautifully designed sedan. The New York Times says the car's lines echo a Maserati, but with SUV-level space and a 300-mile single-charge range.

36:57Musk tells the crowd Tesla expects to make$20 ,000 of the Model S annually, but that will depend on significant financing from one particular investor, the U.S. government. By June 2009, Chrysler and GM are in bankruptcy court. Gas prices are soaring along with new rigid emission standards. It's a perfect time for electric cars to step into the spotlight. Newly elected President Barack Obama's Green Agenda calls for one million electric cars to hit the roads by 2015. To that end, the Department of Energy loans$1.6 billion to Nissan and$5.9 billion to Ford to fund electric vehicles. Also on the gift list is Tesla, which gets$465 million specifically for the production of the Model S and a factory to make battery packs and electric drivetrains for Tesla and other companies.

38:00This isn't the wish list Musk had hoped for, but it's a crucial influx of cash as Detroit steps up its electric presence. Ford announces the electric Focus, set for 2011. Chrysler promises 500 ,000 EVs will be on the road by 2013. But General Motors vice chairman Bob Lutz doesn't need years to debut Chevrolet's answer to the electric challenge. The Chevy Volt will be available in early 2010.

38:35It's 2009 at GM headquarters in Detroit. Lutz has been watching Tesla like a hawk for years. He's long realized the little California company is on to something. And with Toyota and its popular Prius pushing GM aside as the world's top car manufacturer, Lutz knows they need to up the ante to stay in the game. The Volt is a plug-in hybrid, a cheaper solution to the costly batteries of an all-electric vehicle. Unlike the Roadster, the Volt isn't a sexy sports car, but it's not meant to be. And at$40 ,000, it's far more affordable than the$109 ,000 Tesla machine. Hey, come on in, sit down. Bob Lutz is meeting with a writer from The New Yorker magazine.

39:27So what's your reaction to Tesla's influence on GM? Look, all the geniuses here at General Motors kept saying, lithium-ion technology is ten years away, and Toyota agrees with us. Then along comes Tesla. So I said, how come some little California startup run by guys who know nothing about the car business can do this, and we can't? So you came up with a Volt, but it's a hybrid. Why not all-electric? A cost for one thing. It's about$60 ,000 less than the Roadster. Well, how does the Volt stack up against the EV1, which GM has already scrapped? Trust me, this isn't the EV1 all over again. It's going to be manufactured in big numbers, and a central focus, the GM brand.

40:12Well, how do you feel about Elon Musk's mission to disrupt Detroit? You think he's going to redefine the auto production game? Hardly. Everyone who tries to reinvent this business believes that auto companies are populated by dummies, right? But to mass-produce cars, you need a large engineering staff, a workforce that demands retirement benefits, a tax staff, a fleet of accountants, and an unbelievable amount of reliability testing that Tesla just can't afford to do. Inevitably, Tesla will discover that the only way to succeed on the scale that we have is to be exactly like us.

40:53It's fall of 2009. Martin Eberhard is mad. He's calling his attorney. Hello, Martin. I've had it with this p***. Elon Musk being the p*** in question? The one and only. As Tesla has grown, Eberhard has been watching from the sidelines. He still loves the car and the principles the company was founded on. But he hates Musk. The feeling is mutual. I want to sue him. Every interview I read, he's blaming me for every problem Tesla ever had. And he's claiming to be a co-founder. The guy wasn't even in the room when we founded the company. Let's nail him for libel, slander, breach of contract, whatever else we can.

41:39Are you sure you want to do this? Absolutely. Get this, Tesla's attorneys say my blog posts criticizing Tesla have violated my anti-disparagement agreement. They withdrew my 250 ,000 stock options. Well, damn. I'll get right on this, Martin. Musk is not an easy man to deal with, but Eberhard is primed for a righteous war. For Musk, this ranks pretty low on his lengthy list of battles he must win. The Model S prototype has lured investment and government funding, but actual delivery of the sedan to buyers who put down deposits keeps getting pushed back. There are workflow problems, supplier issues.

42:27Engineers are working in shifts around the clock. Right now, the crew is working on the Model S in a 3 ,000-square-foot tent on the SpaceX lot. The$465 million loan from the government is helpful. But Tesla only gets the money if it has an actual automobile factory. And those traditionally cost$1 billion. The tent is just not going to cut it. Detroit is waiting to see if the Tesla experiment explodes in Musk's face. At this point, Tesla has accomplished at least one thing it set out to do, lead Detroit to electric cars. But now that Musk has blazed the trail, Detroit has no intention of being anything less than king of the road.

43:27From Wondery, this is episode one of Tesla vs. Detroit for Business Wars. A quick note about recreations you've been hearing. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, those scenes are dramatizations, but they're based on historical research. If you'd like to read more about Tesla, we recommend Power Play by Tim Higgins and Elon Musk, Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future by Ashley Vance. I'm your host David Brown Peter Gilstrap wrote this story voice acting by Michelle Phillippe Karen Lowe is our senior producer and editor edited and produced by Emily Frost sound design by Kyle Randall our producer is Dave Schilling our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louis created by Hernan Lopez for Wondery

44:20Wondery

44:44We'll be right back.

44:51behind plays that changed a game, a team, or a championship. LeBron and I have lived this game at the highest level for decades. We've been in those pressure moments and made those game-changing decisions and learned from the greatest basketball minds in history. Now we're pulling back the curtain and sharing that knowledge with you. Time to go beyond the highlights and get into the real heart of basketball. Watch Mind the Game now on YouTube, Prime Video, or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

From the publisher

While the U.S. government pushed automakers to make low-emission vehicles in the 1990s, consumers loved their gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs. But in 2003, Elon Musk's Tesla Motors arrives with environmentally friendly, high-performance cars that people actually want.


Motor City smirks as Musk pilots Tesla through crushing financial crises, spectacular quality control disasters and his own shocking public displays of bad behavior. But his pricey cars are catching on. Detroit is taking notice. Musk and Tesla are on a path of disruption that will change the industry and put EVs on the map.


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