The Rise of AI | Living in an Artificial World | 4

0:06I'm David Brown and this is Business Wars.

0:31In case you haven't noticed, AI is having a moment. Well, maybe more than a moment. After weathering a so-called AI winter and years of upheaval, artificial intelligence is now everywhere, with billions of dollars of venture capital pouring in to build the next big thing. This doesn't mean our world is turning into Blade Runner, or going the route of idiocracy. Or does it? Brando's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes. So wait a minute. What you're saying is that you want us to put water on the crops. Yes. We'll explain that one later, but the advancement of AI has a lot of folks asking questions about the future.

1:09What about security and ethics? Is AI getting too big too fast? Here to help us explore some of these matters are Mike Collori and Lauren Good. Mike is senior editor at Wired, the online tech magazine. Lauren is senior writer at Wired. The pair also co-host Wired's Gadget Lab podcast, where they explore the intersection of tech and culture. And today they'll share some of the coolest and perhaps scariest uses of AI that they've seen, and try to help us make sense of where all this is going. Plus, we'll get into whether some of our favorite movies have accurately predicted life in an AI world. Any come to mind?

1:46Stay tuned, because all that's coming up next.

1:52When planning for your future, you want someone with a history of keeping their word year after year. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has been a trusted name in the industry. But that isn't just a number. It's experience that matters. It's 160 years of promises held, helping generations retire with confidence, protect their loved ones, and plan for whatever comes next. Whether you're looking for life insurance, employee benefits, or retirement income solutions, when your future is on the line, you want history on your side. And believe me, Pacific Life has been there, always there through changing times, always focused on your needs.

2:31Ready to secure your tomorrow? Ask a financial professional how Pacific Life can help you feel prepared for what's next. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona. because with Pacific Life, you're not just planning for the future, you're partnering with trusted experience. Closing the books, getting your people paid, and bringing on new hires. Running a small or mid-sized business can be exciting and also a little chaotic. Workday Go makes simplifying your business, well, simple. Imagine all the important aspects of your company, HR, finance, and payroll, all on the AI platform.

3:13No more juggling multiple systems. No more worrying about growing too fast. Just the full power of Workday Go, helping small to mid-sized businesses like yours scale and run more smoothly. Think about what that means. Seamless onboarding for new team members. Real-time insights at your fingertips. And payroll that works perfectly every single time. So you can focus on the big picture and go after your big ambitions. And with Workday, you can activate quickly in as little as 30 to 60 business days. So simplify your business. Go for growth. Go with Workday Go.

3:59Michael, Lori, Lauren Good, welcome back to Business Wars. Thanks for having us. Yeah, we're really excited. The last time we had you on our show in February, ChatGPT had just come out. We actually asked the bot itself to be our interview guest, but it had another commitment, of course. Only kidding. Has the chat GPT hype died down since its launch deal thing? I mean, I remember you even had it write an intro for Gadget Lab as a test, right? How did listeners react to that? I don't know if we got any solid feedback from our listeners on that particular stunt, but I can say that we've seen huge growth in the industry since the last time we talked about it.

4:37The makers of ChatGPT, OpenAI, have just been gathering steam. They've also been inspiring a lot of new growth in that space, in the space of not only chatbots, but generative AI. There are just dozens and dozens of companies popping up. We're hearing about more uses for ChatGPT. It's expanding into enterprise and into consumer products. So, yeah, it's just straight up. So one thing I have noticed is a lot of other people tried to imitate what you did at Gadget Lab, you know, with the AI writing the script. And, oh, guess what? But I'm wondering what other ways you guys are seeing AI pop up right now in the products and services you both cover at Wired.

5:21Lauren? Are you saying that we're not super hashtag innovative or disruptive over on our pod, David? No, no, no. I think y 'all are forging the way forward. Everyone has used that gimmick. No, no, no. Fair enough. Well, I mean, one of the things that we've been talking about at Wired for a really long time now, and not just since the introduction of ChatGPT, is that AI has been popping up in our products for a very long time. There were, you know, of course, a lot of advancements first made in artificial intelligence starting around the 1950s and then implementations of it and very, very specific, very nerdy computer programs for the next five to six decades.

5:59But, you know, I tend to think that really around the time this smartphone was introduced in our lives and applications that could utilize machine learning techniques. That's really when things started to change, right? The whole IoT trend or Internet of Things trend has been a part of this, too. So, you know, the idea behind the consumerization of AI is that everything from Facebook or Yelp to the Maps app on your phone to language translation apps to your Alexa smart speaker to even the stability systems in cruise control in your car is using some form of computerized intelligence to crunch tons of data and then predict what you'll want to or need to do next.

6:40And that is all I mean, that's all AI. And I think that's a really important point, which brings us to why people seem to be so fixated on it right now, why this seems to be a kind of existential moment for humanity to some. Why are folks, dare I say, freaking out about AI right now? Well, I mentioned machine learning earlier, which is a very specific type or vertical of AI. I think what we've seen more recently is the introduction of applications that are using what you've probably heard a lot of, you know, LLM, right, or LLMs, large language models, which is a specific type of AI model that has been trained on vast amounts of data and uses deep learning techniques to perform a variety of natural language processing tasks.

7:28And so these models are able to scrape all of this information from the Internet and then generate something that feels very human-like. And so I think that is what the latest development is that has people a little bit freaked out about. We can't really tell the robot from the real person. Is that what you're suggesting? Yes. It's getting closer to that. Closer, but we have a cigar. I know I've seen a lot of images that at least strike me as, while interesting and beautiful, there is often something surreal about the image that kind of tips you off to the fact that maybe this was computer generated.

8:12And, of course, there's been a lot more said and written about how ChatGPT gives you sort of a vanilla version of its answer or response to a query quite often and often gets things wrong. How close are we to the imminent takeover of AI? Mike, JPT, do you want to answer that one? I think if you're talking about the takeover of AI in the creative industry, like in writing and in making images and in making videos, we're probably a lot closer than we are in other industries. Yes, when you plug in a prompt and you ask it to create like a script for a TV show or you ask it to write a short story or maybe show you a video of butterflies on a mountainside, it's going to give you something that is close enough where you look at it and the person who's reading it or the person who's looking at it will be able to tell you what you asked it to produce.

9:11Right. And that's relatively new. That's something that we were not really able to do even a year ago. And I think that the way that these things are accelerating and as the technology continues to improve, you're going to see those results get more acceptable, more realistic. It will quickly, if it hasn't already, reach a point where the results will be basically undistinguishable from something that a human can create themselves. And I think that's just more passable when you're talking about fiction or you're talking about a television show or entertainment, right? It's something that's a little bit more digestible if it's AI created, if there's not a human hand behind it.

9:51It's when you get to things like the nightly news or your morning newspaper, where, you know, absolute correct fact is required that the diciness of the outputs from chatbots and from generative AI systems can be more detectable or they can be a problem. Well, what about some of the cool ways that you've seen AI be put into use so far? Has there been a wow for either of you? I had a moment back in March when I went to an AI film festival here in San Francisco at the Alamo Drafthouse. And this generative AI company called Runway had hosted it, and they were enticing filmmakers, many of them budding or unknown filmmakers, to use these image generation tools to make or augment films.

10:41One of the filmmakers ended up taking a bunch of his childhood photos, putting them into one of these AI image generation tools and asking the AI to augment the photos. Then he showed those photos to his father and recorded his father's reactions and used that as the soundtrack to the short film. And just seeing what an AI did to his childhood memories, I think was really kind of shocking to him. And in some cases you can sort of tell that the images had been distorted because the image you're looking at is just really wholly unnatural in some way. And other times you're just like, oh yeah, sure, there was a puppy there, right?

11:22Because I, as the viewer, don't know the difference, but he would know the difference that maybe they didn't have six puppies in the bathtub or whatever the image was. And I thought that was really, really creative and really fascinating. And I wrote a whole story for Wired about what generative AI is going to do to our future memories. Yeah. You know, Six Puppies in a Bathtub raises the question, have you come across any of the scary uses of AI? For me, I would say that the scariest thing is disinformation and misinformation. People using AI to generate images that look very lifelike of people who we all recognize doing things that they didn't actually do.

12:06I mean, obviously, we've got elections happening in this country. We've got elections happening in other markets around the world where disinformation can spread very quickly and very easily. And that, to me, is very scary. And one of the things I think that's scariest about the technology is the rate of acceleration and how quickly the average person can use it to make something like that. There's always been some form of misinformation or even propaganda that's being spread to get a certain message across, right, to the public. But when you think about the Nancy Pelosi video that is now fairly well known of where her speech was being slurred and so she was, you know, made to appear intoxicated in some way, that wasn't generative AI.

12:53That was just creative editing where her speech was slowed down. So think about that, but think about now you could theoretically recreate entirely a video like that and do it in minutes, even if you don't have any particular skill set around video editing. And that's the part I think that people are rightfully alarmed about. Yeah. Well, AI is obviously a big concern in Hollywood right now, and it's a big part of why both the actors and the writers are striking. And I'm curious from where y 'all sit, what is at the heart of the strike when it comes to concerns over AI technology? This is a really important topic, I think, and very timely.

13:31So the Hollywood strike is over traditional disputes like wages and benefits and job protections. But the fight over AI is getting a lot of attention. And I think it's because it feels like the cat is already out of the bag, right? I mean, AI has already completely infiltrated movie making, whether that's in terms of CGI or recreating the image and likeness of someone who has died before a movie was completed or to de-age actors as part of the storytelling. And even, you know, Netflix's infamous recommendation algorithm, that's all AI, right? It's taking these troves of existing data and creating something totally anew with them.

14:07So I think that, you know, actors and writers are right to be a little bit nervous right now about this new age of AI. And basically, you know, the actors are nervous because they're saying that the studio's position right now is that the studios want to be able to scan actors' images, you know, pay them for half a day's work, and then create totally new imagery from those database images without informed consent. Now, the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers, which represents the studios and other employers in Hollywood, they say that, you know, they have presented an AI proposal that protects performers' digital likeness, including a requirement for consent.

14:48But they're just at a total stalemate over this. The Writers Guild, you know, they're nervous, too, because they want to draw a line around credits. They might be OK with using AI to potentially help shape stories, but they do not want it to affect the credits that are essential to their pay and their prestige as writers. So there are a lot of different points around this and AI in particular that I think are being worked out. We're seeing the results of that. We are seeing this historic strike happening. You know, this is a situation where there are human beings who've been doing a task for generations who are now standing up to prevent their jobs from being taken away by computers.

15:30That is literally what is happening. And not only just their jobs taken away, but also, you know, their sort of pride of the work that they do. Like they, you know, make very good stories. The actors are very good at telling stories with their bodies and with their faces. And when you make a computer do that, it just makes the work feel less human and they don't want to see the work go down in quality. Mike Colore is senior editor at Wired. Lauren Good is senior writer at Wired. We're going to be exploring what the scientists, investors and billionaires are saying about AI when we come back. Stay with us.

16:08December can be a busy month for all of us. Finishing projects, planning for next year, maybe even wrapping a few presents, while your teams take a well-deserved break. Cyber threat actors don't. Stay protected this holiday season with Manage Engine. Their cybersecurity solutions ensure that your data is secure, even while your office lights are turned off. With 18 data centers around the world and over 20 years of experience securing global enterprises, Manage Engine can keep your business running safely, no matter how busy or hectic the world gets. This holiday, gift yourself and your business peace of mind.

16:48Visit cybersecurity.manageengine.com. That's cybersecurity.m-a-n-a-g-e-e-n-g-i-n-e dot com. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. It's a great time to apply for an Apple Card. You'll love earning unlimited daily cash on every purchase. That includes 3 % daily cash when you buy the latest iPhone, AirPods, and Apple Watch at Apple. Through this special referral offer, when you get a new Apple Card, you can earn bonus daily cash. To qualify, you must apply at apple.co slash getdailycash. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Offer may not be available elsewhere.

17:33Terms and limitations apply.

17:43Hey, welcome back to Business Wars. We're talking with Mike Colore and Lauren Good, senior editor and senior writer, respectively, at Wired. You know, the entertainment industry, not the only one with a bone to pick over AI right now. Artists are actually suing some of the AI art generators, claiming that they violate copyright when referencing their works. I guess this begs the question, how much of this stuff is even legal? I know you two aren't lawyers, but I imagine this has been pretty interesting to cover, no? It's probably legal. Well, you know, there's a case to be made that an AI generated image that is produced by a machine that's been trained on the product of a certain artist could be considered a derivative work.

18:29But if you think about it, it's also sort of the same thing that humans do. Like if you are an abstract expressionist painter and you spent your entire life studying abstract expressionism and you've gone to all the museums and you've seen hundreds and thousands of abstract expression art, then you are going to create something that is sort of along the lines of the things that you have seen, which is how an AI, a visual AI is trained. You show it a bunch of images and then it just repeats the patterns that it sees in those images. But I think the big difference here is that those AI training systems are feeding millions of images in minutes.

19:12So they're going through these training processes very, very quickly. It's not a lifetime of studying this and thinking about it. It's just a big bunch of data being chewed up and then spit out by a computer. So what you get is what you put in. And I think the people who are having their stuff put in do have a case for saying that it's derivative work. Have you heard any of the songs that have been created by AI that are supposed to emulate, say, artists who are deceased? I think there was a Michael Jackson song that got some steam. And I wonder to myself, OK, does this have artistic merit or not?

19:48Is it something that people would actually listen to? We talked about this on the Wired Have a Nice Future podcast, which is my other podcast. And we even talked about this with the artist Grimes. But Mike, I do want to hear your thoughts on some of these. Because Mike is a musician who is in three bands outside of his work at Wired and has some opinions about this. So I do think that these things have a point. And I do think they have artistic merit. I might be alone in this opinion. But I think that the artist who sits down in front of a computer and uses these tools to create a song is doing so using like some skill as a songwriter, right?

20:31They can make something that actually sounds good and is catchy and then they can play for other people. The problem comes when you marry that with something like commerce or a social media platform seeking attention where the person's like, hey, I made this song. It sounds just like Taylor Swift. Isn't that amazing? And then they try to monetize that. Then, you know, you get into some sketchy territory around is this actually ripping off the work of the artist that you're trying to imitate? I like, though, how Grime seems to be owning this in a way. No, I mean, sort of outsourcing her AI likeness so that, you know, fans can make their own Grimes songs.

21:09And that's an interesting way to approach this. Yeah, it's a real if you can't beat them, join them approach. Kind of seems that way. And we obviously have no idea how that's going to work out. But one of the things that Grimes pointed out in the conversation is that it still does require skill a little bit to Mike's point. Right. Even if it is electronic or they're using synthesizers or whatever that might be. So computer aided, but not totally computer generated. Yeah, it's in a way, it's an extension of remix culture, which has been around for 50 or 60 years. You know, so artists have been offering these things to the creative community for a while.

21:43Now the tools are different and the tools are more evolved and people can do more with them. Huh. Well, you know, as much as AI is accelerating itself, there's a ton of money going into this industry. And the green is certainly an accelerant. Talking billions and billions of dollars here. And I wonder, Mike, how real is this fear that AI might be getting too big too fast, too quickly? I love this question because I always joke that it's a real privilege to be able to cover the tech industry in its pivot to chatbot era.

22:16There is so much money and so much attention being poured into these tools. And I don't know if we're necessarily in danger of it getting too big too quickly. But one thing that we are in danger of is falling prey to the hype. There is such tremendous hype about how all of these tools are going to change all of our lives forever immediately. And that's just not true. Like it's going to change our lives a little bit, maybe at some point in the future. But there is a lot of big talk around it because people, you know, they really want investors money and they really want you to think that they're changing the world.

22:53So I think that's you kind of have to pierce the bubble and look behind the veil. How many different euphemisms can I use here? I'm sure ChatGPT could generate a new one for you. Yeah, you bet. Let me plug that in. So is there a solution or are we going to have to turn to ChatGPT for that one too? Where are the guardrails? Who's creating the guardrails? I would say regulation, except for the fact that our legislative bodies are maybe not as well-schooled in how these things work and how they should be regulated. And I think you need to really deeply understand both the technology and the market forces behind it if you're going to regulate an industry.

23:34In the evidence that I've seen about how they talk about chat GPT and how they talk about personal data, I'm not convinced that we're going to be able to successfully regulate the industry. So I would say that probably a great solution is education. The more people that learn about this and the more people that study it and learn how it works and what it's capable of, the better. Also, keep it out of the hands of people who would do bad. But I don't know how you do that. Yeah, good luck with that. Yeah, because I don't necessarily think that we can rely on these companies in the private sector to regulate themselves.

24:09We know that OpenAI has been making the rounds literally around the world to speak with government leaders and propose regulatory frameworks for AI. And the idea is, look, we want to be a part of this conversation in some ways. We think we can self-regulate. Like, we know what's best here. But then just recently, The Washington Post ran an article about how OpenAI had said it was going to ban political campaigns from using ChatGPT to generate political messaging. And then, bam, you know, the Washington Post reporter was able to test it out. And there was ChatGPT talking about how to convince suburban women in their 40s to vote for Trump.

24:43So, you know, OpenAI wasn't able to regulate itself in the way that it had promised. We tend to find so far that they're not able to adhere to these promises of, you know, content moderation and self-regulation. Yeah, yeah. So what should the everyday consumer, how can the everyday person navigate in a world where AI can generate, you know, false stories, ads, images? Yeah, I think it's the same advice that we would give anybody who is uncertain of what they would see regardless of whether it was generated by AI or generated by a human being, which is that verify it with a trusted source. You know, if you have good news sources that you rely on and if you listen to what the scientists and the researchers are telling you about how misinformation is generated and how it spreads, then you become you develop a news literacy for this new era that allows you to read and watch things with the appropriate amount of skepticism and knowledge.

25:44I do think sticking to journalism brands that you trust can be really helpful in a time like this, whether that's Wired, whether that's The New Yorker, whatever your preferred publication is. Give them a try during this election season instead of maybe just getting your news from Instagram, which can also be a great source of news because some brands like I think of the Bloomberg Quick Take videos. Those are pretty clever and they're really informative. Like people do a great job on Instagram of that, too. But go to your trusted sources because there's a lot of information out there and some of it is not coming from very credible places.