Alanis Morissette: Anger, Attachment, & Postpartum

32:19There were websites constructed to figure out how to murder me most elegantly. And so Alanis I love how you just drop these things casually and you were about to go right past that I'm like you're like what what well there was a lot of hate and it was very very out there and a lot of people a lot of artists whom I respected and lived for were disparagingly speaking about me later Sinead apologized which was really classy um but yeah I mean it was it It was not a girl squad. There were no girl squads. How did you find support during that time? Like, were you close with your family? Back then? Oh, my God.

32:59I have a whole team. I have a whole freaking team. And a lot of parts work. So if I read something in the press that triggered me and I felt terrible, obviously that part needs a little dialogue here. And so it became Shadow Work 101 for me. Can you give an example of something back then? I know it probably doesn't now, but anything back then. I think Courtney Love was calling me fake, which is so funny. And she also apologized later and said very kind things. But so fake would be one. And as an example, I would take fake and go, what kind of person is fake? Someone who's maybe lying, lying to themselves.

33:35Do I lie to myself? Yeah, lie to myself. Let's talk to the part that lies to myself. Okay, what do you need? What wisdom do you have? What action can I take on your behalf? just and every little part in here that is trying that maybe acting out or behaving in a terrible horrifying way like maybe you want to take me out they're all trying to protect they're all trying to help so a lot of the things when you would get criticism it would hurt which i think makes a lot of course and the ones that hurt the most were ones where you were like i needed to do some looking at it and fake that's how you know because if someone says oh lanice you're really if someone says something that's not a trigger for me, it's water off a duck's back.

34:15Of course. So for me, if something's not water off a duck's back, let's look at it. There's also this thing where it's so fun to be able to look back and have perspective and everyone's like, oh my gosh, you were such a trailblazer at the time and you did all these things. But then a lot of the times when you have those conversations with those type of people, if you actually were in it in their day to day and living it during the time it was hell for them they were getting scrutinized and hatred there's websites telling figuring out how they can murder you yes and we miss all of that right but a lot of times to actually make certain change you have to go against the grain which you were doing but then we're still doing that we are yeah but also to hear that a lot of you the people around you in the industry were not receptive towards you well yeah they were upset i was you know it's like people being jealous of taylor swift like it's yeah it's just and i think the implication there for me was that the the presupposition on the planet was that there's one throne only alex can sit in the throne everybody everyone else you fail you lose you're ugly by what that's patriarchy that's scarcity mindset and isn't that so crazy it's like then they want to put a stake through you because you're sitting at the top it's also like if not you then there's gonna be someone else and then are we gonna take them down too when we see the cycle repeat yes and it just repeats and repeats all right always right of course of course and for me also i've noticed because i've been in the public eye since i was 14 it goes like this you i loved you i hated you i loved you hated and taylor talks about that uh-huh you can never be loved forever it's there i mean you can but that's in the underneath underneath true and if you're gonna be loved forever you probably have come you have a version of lost yourself because to be loved constantly means that you're appeasing everyone else and then you're never actually being is it even possible there's no such thing no you're gonna piss people off because you appease

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38:30Let's talk about dating. My favorite topic. Amazing. I know you referenced, you were sitting across from sometimes someone on a date, you referenced it a little bit earlier and they're saying all these amazing things, but you're like, oh, you don't even see me. Oh, yeah. Jagged Little Pill comes out, 21, your life changes forever. How did you even connect with men in a way or women in a way that you felt seen because of this fame and all of these issues? I didn't. How did that impact your songwriting? The loneliness persisted. The abject cellular loneliness. But I mean, that's what it is. And so for me also, my survival strategy also, and I've worked so hard on this, has also included other orientation, right?

39:19Raised in narcissism, my existence meant beholding other, being supply for narcissism. I don't even exist. There's not even a person here. So yeah, do I have a big self when people meet me? Maybe. But over the years, there was no felt sense of self because my whole orientation was focus on other. And so over the years, doing all kinds of different trauma therapy models and finally getting to a point where I'm in this body and that I'm actually here and the disappearing and the invisibility, it's a big deal. this invisibility wound and in patriarchy how are women not going to feel some fucking semblance of invisibility they can't not okay rewind raised in narcissism explain so what happens with a young creature uh at the attachment stage when you're looking this is when we get you know the identity stage your parents mirror you you go alex you're so smart you're so funny you know I mean, you're just mirroring the person.

40:23The child goes, oh, I exist. I'm here. When that doesn't happen, it's this floaty felt sense of experience. And then my survival strategy was to take care of other people. So I'm floating, no felt embodied, taking care of other. And then the only touch was through acting out sexually because everything was mixed together. The only way a woman could be acknowledged when she's little, like you said earlier, is, oh, sexual energy. I'm going to erotically go for you or predator you or take you or whatever. Right. So the woman goes, the young woman goes, oh, this is my power. Oh, I noticed that when I'm come hither or come hither, I get seen.

41:13I get looked at. I get touched. I get. Oh. but it's so sad because it's this one tiny little route and a human being your sexuality is beautiful it's huge and it is one piece of you no it's so true and also i was like i recently did this series on attachment styles which i want to get into with you because that's what you're basically talking about yes and i think you describing your childhood it is such a hard thread for all of us as human beings when you don't have that nurturer looking at you whoever is your you know person that's taking care of you giving you a secure attachment um giving you validation but also proper validation um it's mirroring consistency right the fact that you're saying you know from a young age as a young girl then you're like okay maybe sexually this is something that because you're looking for any way to have anything that's gonna love you yeah that's it and that is so harmful to ourselves because then you're no self no self and you're so young what's actually going to fulfill you in charge of your own developmental growings up on your own is very lonely and i'm not even just thinking about me i'm just thinking about the idea of it so attachment which you just brought up and then exploration and the it's cumulative so ideally we're securely attached and then we explore you know keep looking back at the caregiver and then we go into identity the mirroring so what i see i'm putting it into words i see you you are spider-man right and then the last one or the fourth is competence and it keeps going but it keeps going but when you because i do think it's really relatable for a lot of women watching like do you have anything you now in having gone through so much therapy and having such a secure, strong sense of self.

43:09Is there anything you wish you could tell that younger girl who understandably was seeking love and sexuality brought out what felt like temporary love, but then it also, the crash is even bigger. Do you have any advice for women listening who maybe are still in that cycle? So one interesting inquiry for me was pulling them, teasing them apart and seeing that, do I need attachment love right now or is my eroticism wanting to be expressed or both? But just getting clear on that. When you look back, maybe in your early 20s, let's say, raised in narcissism, trying to figure out your sense of self, did you see any patterns with partners that you were really attracted to and how did you break out of those patterns?

44:01I was attracted to narcissism, shocker. And as an empath, we tend to be a magnet for narcissists. It's not uncommon.

44:16There's a beautiful book called Keeping the Love You Find by Harville Hendricks. It just basically lays out where you're going to feel high chemistry based on your unconscious, unfinished business. and that the degree of commitment and intimacy portends for the degree of healing available. And yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful book in terms of understanding what seems so mysterious. It's this unconscious drive to become whole and to reinvigorate our aliveness. We all want to feel alive. It's so relatable and it's so complicated because it's rooted in everything we are from the day we are born. And I know you have talked about how you dealt with codependency and love addiction.

45:02What emotional toll, though, does that eventually take on you? A complete self-annihilation and obliteration and years of coming back into who you barely were before you began. I think that's what's so fascinating is like how enmeshed you can get in relationships and how I also think it's so hard to see when you're in it. You can't. You can't see it at all. No, it just hurts. And it hurts and you feel like, but maybe if I try harder. Well, that's the appeasement, right? Of course. The appeasement is if I see them a little better or if I hold them or if I empathize more, if I leave more space. But the no self is the theme.

45:41And the survival strategy of other focus, there is no self. Do you have a moment you remember? Because it's so hard. It's like we can look back and be like, oh, that was that. But is there ever a moment you remember being like, I have to leave? Like, is there anything that ever happened that you were like, this specifically made me walk out the door? I had a few, there's a song I wrote called That Particular Time. And basically, I just keep getting into that appeasement part that just tried to figure out how to make something untenable, tenable. And it isn't. And it won't be. And it's painful.

46:18And so how do you construct a self from nothing? And guess what? The hack of all time. And you said it at the beginning of our conversation. Gathering. Gather. Period. Because if we get together and we're talking and we're processing, it moves worlds. And a lot of times when you're in those situations, you are so isolated. But if you do open yourself up to a friend or a family member or something, slowly you're like, oh, maybe I'm not crazy. Maybe there are billions of other people asking this very question at the same time. You and your husband, Solai, got married when you were 35. What about that relationship felt different to you?

47:04I had my – the pattern was done. and I just basically went against type. Which is sometimes really scary. It's all scary. Right? Everything is scary about dating. It's terrible. I don't recommend. Because you're also so aware when you're going against your type and you're like, be open-minded, be open-minded. Stay here, stay here. Right? Everything in your body is like, go back, go back, go back. And you're like, if we go back one more time, I'm going to lose it. So no, we have to stay the course. I can't. I mean, how many times do you repeat the same pattern? And by the way, my answer is 100.

47:41More than 100. 100, yes. Okay, so you just went against. Oh, I had to. Because I also was ready for a family and Soul Eyes loyalty and constancy. There were some qualities where I went, family now. Right? I was like, these are the best. This is it. And I always wanted to be a mom. I always wanted to have kids. So it was a bit of a no-brainer for me. You have three children. And a conversation that I've been having a lot on my show recently has been kind of just surrounding motherhood. And postpartum depression is something that is such a unfortunately tricky topic to talk about because there's so much judgment from other people.

48:30And you have been such an incredible voice when talking about your experience and being so open about it, which I have so much respect for. And you even described it as being covered in tar and underwater. Can you just talk more about your feelings and what you were going through back at that time in your life? I had I call it postpartum activity because it's not just depression. And I mean, depression on its own. and if you've had a history depression and then from my experience each postpartum depression gets increasingly harder um just wanted to meet my kids though so badly so i kept going but um basically i became another person and all the hormones are all over the place And so there's some version of menopausal flux combined with depression, invasive thoughts that are so harrowing, terrible, ceaseless.

49:33Invasive thoughts, anxiety, depression, rage off the charts. I felt completely out of control. and yet I was touring and leading and being a boss and being someone taking care of money and finances and everything and that part is the part where when I'm quiet and alone I might weep a little bit here and there about that. When you first started to experience symptoms how did you even make sense of them? I didn't and I reached out to so many therapists and all due respect. one well-meaning therapist said sweetheart when it gets really bad just put your hands over your eyes like this and i was like

50:22you're like you know i'm not a therapist but i have a feeling but i have it on tv and i know a little bit more than that you're like i've got a feeling that's not the answer i got that big full answer anyway uh that can't be the answer it isn't oh my and i spoke with a lot of really really smart supportive postpartum support peeps and it was still really really really really really really hard i wrote down um after your first baby you kind of talked about how you waited to get help because your instinct was to white knuckle your way through it welcome to generation x yes yes what did you come to learn about that mindset the the steel i mean that's what we Gen X does it, but also women do it.

51:09This invisible load thing, no, no, no, it's not going to be invisible anymore. We're making it visible. I'm going to tell you the 37 things that we do an hour and what we're thinking about when it looks like we're sitting there waiting for you to speak to us, what we're actually thinking about, what we're actually processing. But let's name it. Even us calling it invisible load keeps it invisible, not invisible. The load, we talk about it at the daily level just like this is the load and i used to do these horrifying things with whiteboards where i would be like i'm gonna write down everything i'm doing why don't you do the same they're like oh god he's like um let's not you know what i'm gonna go make you dinner he's like i am gonna go do the dishes and cook dinner and do the laundry pie right and clean You're like, why did you wheel that whiteboard out of here?

52:01I have two whiteboards in my bedroom. Oh my God. So you mentioned that each postpartum depression or postpartum activity, it got increasingly worse each pregnancy for you. How did you manage knowing it was coming on maybe the second and third time? And how did that look different the way that you handled it then versus maybe the first time? Each time I thought, well, not this time because I just had to think that.

52:36First time I waited a year and two months. Second time I waited eight months. And third time I think I waited three days. I was just like, oh, no, I'm not doing this again. And I did it again. And then we toured during COVID. I was just like, wow. oh, Alanis, you toured postpartum depression, third one, during COVID. You're like, this will solve it. You know what? This is going to make everything. All I remember is Shirley Manson before every show, every night, she'd say, we're going to go on. And I said, Shirley, tonight we go on. This is all I know. It was one of those. And were you able to just push through in those moments, but then would it all come crashing down the minute you would get off stage?

53:21uh back at the hotel yeah but i still showed up like i was i dipped into psychosis it was a wild ride um and then i'd have people in the business going what's going on with her now she's extra crazy i'm just like all right thanks for that beautiful chestnut word again i've heard a lot of moms who also have experienced postpartum depression talk about the guilt and the shame of like i'm supposed to be fill in the blank right like i'm supposed to be this must be the best, most beautiful time of my life. And I am supposed to be happy and the happiest. Did you experience that? No, but I've been playing with depression my whole life.

54:01And joy is very, very cool. It's activism for me now. Joy, pleasure, connection, human contact. having dealt with depression your whole life how did you were there was there anything that you did similar to cope and to handle the postpartum element of it or were they just very different experiences um the the depression piece inside pbd unfortunately and fortunately i was familiar with it, it was all the other stuff. It was the invasive thoughts and the terror. Just all I could picture was death and terrible things. And yeah, I mean, I feel so happy that I'm back, by the way. And the bummer for me inside PPD was that I was losing people's trust in my sanity.

55:00that's a bummer when you when i have spent my whole life attempting to establish to people i love that i'm safe and that i'm predictable and that all of a sudden i wasn't that was a loss because people looked at me differently they looked at me like i maybe couldn't be trusted or was gonna fly off the hand and that's not that's not my thing but also it's and from what i've understood because i haven't experienced it but like there's also the element of you're so afraid to say these things out loud terrible because you're like oh you're gonna think i'm insane right but in a sense from what i understand it's like we need to say these things out loud yes and but then it's being met with such judgment so then you just go back into a corner and we haven't figured out the solve at all for women.

55:55Well, gathering. I mean, the solve for women is us going back to how we used to live, which is honoring the female endocrine system as a spiritual freaking practice. And that when a woman is with freaking child, that she is surrounded by 30 women and they're giving you broth and they're cleaning your home and they're holding your baby and they're holding you. And so of course the women are going to suffer. The freaking life givers are going to suffer. Everyone's okay with this. It is so crazy too when everyone will treat a pregnant woman with such grace and love. In her second trimester only. It's true.

56:35True. First trimester. Yeah, like shut up. You're bugging me. Yeah, you're annoying. Yeah. Second trimester. Oh, you have a child. No, and that's what's so sad, right? The minute the mother gives birth it's like we can she gets invisible again we she's invisible and it's all the baby and it's like wait this woman just went through the most transformative in moments traumatic experience that a physiologically a human being could ever go through and neurologically oh and we're just like get up the baby's crying and why aren't you why haven't you lost your 42 pounds yet yeah what's going on there why did you get back to your aesthetic pleasing for me you look like you're going through it you better get it together wow do you have a trainer anybody to help you with this i just but what how am i supposed to oh you're leaving me alone with that okay perfect perfect so community is community get community all around and churls and casseroles And lots of casseroles.

57:39Off the casserole. You, which I think is so admirable, you did choose to speak about postpartum depression publicly while you were still going through it. Yeah. Why was it important for you to not wait until you were on the other side of it and just say what was going on? It just was what was happening. So, and it was happening again for the third time. And I had heard at this point, because I'd been so outspoken about it, people were, my phone was blowing up. and someone would say, oh my gosh, my daughter-in-law, she just pulled the car over and is running down the street. What do I do? And I'm like, why is she driving?

58:16Why is she even out of the house? Why is she driving? Get her in the passenger seat. So you got a lot of response from other women. Yes. And it was just... It was amazing. Because it was just a yes and-ing. And then by the third time, oh yeah, let me keep speaking about this because I started to realize that I was so not alone. Yeah. That is the best feeling when you're like, oh, I'm losing it. I'm, oh, you guys are all going through this too? Oh, wait. Yes, this is normal. Oh.

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1:00:17This is a paid advertisement by SoFi technologies and is not intended to be financial advice another conversation I want to have with you which we reference a little bit above was there's such a fixation on youth culture. Ironically, every single woman that I have had sit in that chair has talked about the beauty and actually the peace that comes with aging. For you, what has been the best part of getting older? The words that fly out of my mouth that I can't believe are flying out of my mouth. yes it's like my objective ego watches it fly um i'll be in meetings and someone will say something and i'll just say that's patriarchal and then just keep talking or like that's really rude or i just it just flies out and i can't stop and this was not my way it wasn't i was more just kind of stay quiet introvert four with a five wing and the enneagrams people watching beholding worrying processing it later menopause happens and now i'm just like boom nope rude patriarchal misogynistic what it's like what do people do when you do that i don't care like honestly don't know i'm not honestly we'll find out i'll do some research oh wow Wow.

1:01:44I wrote that down. You referred to menopause as a truth serum because it's given you the freedom to say what you want, which is exactly what you're talking about right now. What is something that you've maybe just been recently more honest about that you're like, oh my, younger me would never? Well, what I love about menopause is often people use the metaphor that, every leaf on the tree gets pulled or every stone gets turned. I'm like, no. For me, it feels like the tree itself was ripped out of the ground and the roots are everywhere and like good luck and so everything identity sexuality finances uh invisible load no longer being invisible uh girlfriends deepening friendships i think friendships are the most unsung see you at the deathbed perfect relationships that make for so much repair and correction and healing and we don't talk about it very much we talk about dating which is the greatest but but friendships oh it's what it keeps you sane and stable and it's everything it's so true yeah and like speaking your mind and the power of speaking your mind what is one thing also that in life you realize you kind of can't learn it it just comes with age oh

1:03:07for me my reactivity has gotten less and less and less like almost there's just more room for humanity there's more room for vulnerability there's more room for power there's more room for everything there's more space as i get older and yeah i just it's not a roller coaster i mean it's existentially a roller coaster. It's like an observation. I'm in this observation seat, and I'm charmed. These new generations, I'm just like, so in love. No, it's such a good point. It really is. It's like you have so much more perspective and appreciation for everything you've gone through that you're like, that's not that big of a deal, or that is, but you're going to get through it.

1:03:53You've just done so much more. You have some insight. Right, you have insight. And that allows you to kind of observe more and not be as upset about things or reactionary. I think that's a great point. Yes. And when we're supporting younger people, our, I don't know if it's certainty, but our solidity is helpful for them. I feel we need the generations above us to lean on and mentors and teachers and uncles and aunts. Keep that going. It's such a good point.

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1:06:37Visit T-Mobile.com. You've been referencing this, but now I really want to get into it. You have a new residency in LA called Butterfly with a Machete that kind of blends your music with storytelling and insights from your life. And I just love the concept. It's genius. And it's so interesting. And it begins in November. Yes. What is the meaning behind the name? Like, it's such a good name. It's so you, but please explain. Yes. Well, there is a moment inside. I don't even know what to call it. Musical piece show where I talk about menopause. And I'm such a symbologist and metaphor lover that it's you know the trend the transmutation alchemically menopause and then this beautiful butterfly will stab you so that is you're like that's what i was going with alex that's where butterfly with the machete was born menopause but the show itself is you know the 90s the the credo was stay in your lane and especially if you're a woman stay in the reductive one whatever one we ascribe to you stay in that one so then now 2026 is all about be everything it's about your multitudinous you have multiple intelligences let's rock all of them you know you you want to do comedy and music and dance and movement and aesthetics and lights and you know yes terrifying because i've been told to stay in one lane my whole life but really really liberating.

1:08:10Yeah. How has this show, as you've put it together, helped you continue to fight the idea that you're too much and too much is a bad thing? The whole show is about me grappling with the too muchness and telling stories that I didn't care about stories because I didn't care about myself. And then I worked with a woman named Anne Randolph, who really supported me in seeing that stories can matter. And then I thought, okay, I'll try that on for size. And then after working with her for a few years, I finally care about the stories. You're also embracing joy and fun. I heard that you're coming out with a holiday album.

1:08:52Alanis. Yes. What inspired this? Because I'm a holiday girly. I'm a holiday girl. I love it. Then my son ever was born on Christmas Day. So I'm an extra holiday girl. Oh, okay. christmas morning okay so yeah we need a holiday album from you just because of that just you have you have street cred just because of that and it yeah how did you what inspired this yes so every christmas over the last few years we've done sort of one song and then as they were accumulating and i love them so much i love singing these songs um i wrote a couple of new songs and we just made a record. So a song called To an Empathic Christmas Time and a song called Christmas on the Dance Floor.

1:09:37And this record is just so sweet. It's just been this labor of Christmas love for me. Oh, my God. I'm so excited. You don't even know. I'm going to be sitting in my house with my baby. I'm going to press play. I'm going to be listening to you. And I'm just all the vibes. All the vibes. Can I bring you broth or some stew? yes yes you can yes high protein stew perfect it's a date yeah um what is your favorite song though out of all the songs that you put together for this holiday album i well there's a judy garland song that martin martin um martin short and i are gonna do um my favorite to sing is what child is this and little drummer boy yeah your voice with that one I'll be listening to that.

1:10:26I'll be crying. All the emotions will be flooding. Yeah, I'll be the whole thing. You can just envision it, can't you? Oh, my God. Okay, last question. I could literally talk to you forever. But you first gave women the permission to be angry. What's next? What do you want to see women step up and own? For me, it's about seeing wholeness as a goal versus wellness. And wholeness isn't always the prettiest, most linear path. Bringing things online, parts that we've lost or denied or cut off, bringing them all slowly online. That's what I love supporting people. you know if you're going from r to s or b to c wherever the frick we are that uh that i'm with you as you go i mean that's it i'm and i'm doing the same thing i'm alongside no i'm all doing it i do love that message so much because i just think there's such a fixation on yes you're right like wellness and do this and be this and all of that and yes we can think about like the green juices and the pilates and all that but it really what we're also talking about is like trying to be this unattainable version of ourselves and and that's not realistic and it's going to just make you feel like shit about yourself constantly so to try to find the wholeness in life what makes you feel whole what makes you feel good and what are your portals in yes how do you get served so for me it's i don't even do q a anymore i do q and q right it's just inquiry we're just yeah we're just looking at it that's all we're doing i have no answer.

1:12:10I don't know. I don't know you. But you have a lot of answers. I mean, I have you some great answers today. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. You have answers for myself. No, you don't have answers for other. You are so interesting. And it was such a pleasure talking to you. I knew we would have such a great conversation to speak with you. But like the different conversations we tapped into. And I think you're just such a savant. And I love speaking to women that are like so driven yes and interested in what they do and i just love how confident you are like even the way that you talked about from your childhood to the romantic relationships in your life to also how that impacts you know your work and then being a mother versus having not been a mother when you were younger just all the complexity of being a human being yeah and all the different sectors that we have to tap into and try to fill our own cups with.

1:13:05You are fascinating and so smart. And I can't thank you enough for opening up to me and just going there with me today. Seriously. Thanks. I'm so happy that you have such spaciousness and capacity. Your capacity is very high. So was yours, girl. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Such a joy. Thank you. Thank you.

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