Bethany Joy Lenz: One Tree Hill & Escaping a Cult (FBF)

32:30Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. So sports are usually math territory, but when it comes to soccer, you guys know, you know what? I'm all over it. So safe to say, I am very excited for the FIFA World Cup coming to LA. The last time I went to a global sporting event was during the Olympics. And honestly, the trip became so much more than just going to different games in Paris. I just remember Matt and I ended up booking the cutest apartment one weekend on Airbnb to explore different parts of France. One night after dinner, instead of I remember rushing home, we stopped in this tiny little local bar, ended up sitting next to a couple from, I think they were from Madrid.

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36:59Yeah. Okay. Talk to me. What drew you to One Tree Hill at this time? I was, well, they actually shot the pilot without me. They shot it with somebody else. I had gotten the script for it. I, it was called Ravens at the time. I turned it down. I really wanted to just focus on film. And, and I just said, I, this is, I just got off a soap opera in New York. I want to try something different. so I turned it down um a couple of grounded pilots later it came back around and they said they're recasting they're shooting in two weeks and will you please go screen test for this role so I did love um how involved because I think again when I just want to like clarify like when people are listening to this and like hold on wait so you're in a cult but you're still allowed to work like I think people may get confused of like how attached you need to be at the time like oh you're allowed to go and work and be without these people oh right you know what I mean like yeah explain how involved they were in your decision to take the show and like how did that work at the time yeah that's a great point um yeah that's one of the things that also made it so insidious is that it wasn't a join us put on this robe and let's go all live in the forest together Um, yeah, there, there was still a lot of autonomy.

38:16I think that's sort of how he kept everybody locked in because we were all really smart. Like it was, this wasn't a group of, of people who were not smart. Like everyone was ambitious and had careers. And so he had to have known coming in that this is not going to work if I try and ask everybody to just move up north and live with me in this weird little house, big house. so yeah it it was very much communication based on daily activities hanging out lunches lots of phone calls and email chains and texting wasn't as much of a thing back then but we were in constant community and communication with each other so it didn't feel like I mean I don't know that he had to work that hard in in in that regard because he meaning less yep daddy gang um I always wanted to say that daddy gang daddy gang it's your moment that's my moment yes uh yeah I so I think that was it's not like the traditional uh cult when you think of that you were not all living on a commune I mean there was a big house that that set several people all lived in at once but they were also their own families with with jobs and other things going on that they all lived nearby uh yeah does that does that make sense that makes some help i i completely understand it's like there's someone constantly in communication with you and so if anything like when you're starting a new job everyone feels like oh i have no friends here You had this safety net and the support system that was ever present.

40:03So it didn't make you ever feel like you were alone, which is huge to have, especially when you're going on new ventures in your career and feeling like, oh, I'm a little out of place. You're kind of never out of place. You have this support system. Yeah. You played Haley James Scott. Yes. In what ways did you relate to your character? Initially, I really related with this sort of awkward girl next door thing. That felt very comfortable for me. It felt like who I really was deep down and wasn't ever allowed to be because a lot of the roles I would get, you know, I was blonde and I had a big personality.

40:46And so I would get a lot of the these sort of leading lady parts or, you know, ingenue parts. But I always felt like I even say in the book, I was like, I feel like a dumpster, like trash panda, like cleaning dumpster lettuce out of my paws. Like I've always just felt awkward and like weird. And so it was fun to be able to step into this character that felt actually so much more like me than what I was usually getting cast for. So that was fun. If you had to say what do you think was the most iconic Haley James Scott moment? I know that's so hard. Give us one. Oh, my God. Okay. I mean, the most iconic Haley moment.

41:24It's hard because so many of them were with James Lafferty. I know. You know, that kiss in the rain when Nathan and Haley first finally get together. And they just like, they just have that kiss in the rain and that hose with holes in it and freezing cold water was pouring down on us. It was so fun. You're like, the reality was. Everyone, you thought it looked like rain. And James and I had never kissed before. And he was, you know, 17. And I was cradle robbing at that point. and you know it was just awkward you're smashing teeth and trying to you know your young kids just like how do we kiss each other on camera I'm obsessed it was fun it was one of the most iconic scenes and I feel like I do think of that when I think of you guys so that was a good one yes um what is your favorite memory just from the show there are a lot but there are not as many as I wish there were because at some point I kind of just checked out emotionally but I would say early on we there were always hurricane warnings and hurricane uh and and actual hurricanes that came through and when it wasn't too bad but it was enough that they were like hey everybody just go inside for a little while yeah we would often stay at somebody's house and the electricity would go out and you'd light candles and sit around and hang out and meet at the waffle house and be like well we got the next four hours at the waffle house somebody bring a deck of cards and you know hopefully the burners won't go out and we can keep eating waffles.

42:58That was fun. That was early days of bonding when it was getting to know each other, trying to figure out who was who, who fit where. And yeah, I really loved that. It makes my heartbreak for you that you just said like, there were not as many as I wish I had, because obviously you did this show for so long and you write about in the book how while you were filming the leaders of this cult that you were a part of told you not to trust your co-stars and to essentially stay away from them yeah um how did isolating yourself affect your dynamic on set well I think I just became someone that nobody really knew how to connect with when the cameras were rolling my guard all went down I was 100 present I was there it was a major catharsis for me actually the ability to uh just be completely free and vulnerable yeah so I that's one of the reasons why I loved being on the show and why I feel like it saved my life in a lot of ways because it was kind of the only place in my life I could actually do that.

44:16But when they said cut and we went back to just sitting in our cast chairs waiting, I would only let people in so far. And I think, again, people in abusive relationships can relate to that too, because there's too much at stake if you allow in someone else's perception, judgment, ideas about your relationship or the relationships that you're a part of in your life. So whether it's a group of people or one person, a lot of people who are in abusive situations will hide the abuse because like I don't know why I'm living in this misery but I don't want your opinion about why I'm living in this misery because then I'll have to maybe really deal with it in a different way yeah it's almost like you kind of you're so oh you are aware that something is off and weird but you're so in in like immersed in that world like protective almost yeah that it's kind of like you you know that people wouldn't fully understand the extent of it so it's not worth letting them in at all yeah but I wonder like on that set with all these like young people like did you have moments as much as you were like really being manipulated by this cult like did you have moments where you're like fuck like what what am I doing like or where you still couldn't really see it at that point I couldn't see what am I doing.

45:54I felt mostly superior to other people. And I felt mostly like they just can't understand. And I've got an answer. I've figured, I mean, that's any cult. That's the idea is we've got something special that you don't have. unfortunately that really colored a lot of my relationships with people but the thing is your gut never goes away I don't think I don't think so I still felt this sense of self-loathing and like it's an unending ladder that you're just constantly trying to climb to achieve to do the things that are going to save you or whatever you're trying to whatever enlightenment level you're trying to reach.

46:40And I was so in that zone that everything I did was, every interaction I had was, was colored by that. And I did at the same time, because I had this sort of self-loathing, I also really, I guess that maybe was jealous of other people on the show too. Not, not the way that women are jealous of each other in a cliche way, but more of the freedom to be a mess, the freedom to just explore life and ask questions that weren't illegal. And just the freedom to like live your life. Yeah. I was jealous of the, of the freedom to live life. And, and I, but I was so committed to my belief system that I would never allow myself to cross over into that.

47:30And I think it just created a difficult dynamic for having a relationship like a joy just has a you can only go so far there's a there's a wall when now when you look back like if you were honest with yourself because you can now see it in a different way like what do you think they all thought of you well I think they thought that I was stubborn and uh weird and in a cult

48:01eventually yeah stop obviously joy no they knew they knew they knew because i think they probably felt really bad for me how soon do you think they knew give us by two years two years so yeah i would say by season two they were like i think this is a like a cult i think this is like probably bad did anyone ever try to say anything to you well I did have one really good friend who was a she was one of the set PAs and I trusted her so much I think honestly because she was Catholic and she was the only religious person on set and so I was like another religious person so you may not be as far along spiritually as I am however you're like do you want me to introduce you to Les I've got a great guy for you.

48:54It's so dark. But I did trust her and she and her husband were wonderful people. And my husband at the time and I used to hang out with them all the time. And we'd go over to their house for wine nights. And it was like a safe haven. And so she definitely tried. She, again, was like my mother. Very smart, long game. like knew I was involved in something unhealthy and just wanted to slowly present questions but she knew she couldn't push too hard or I'd push her away um really really good friend and um I so appreciate that but nobody else on the show no nobody ever said I mean Tyler once just flat out came out and was like uh are you in a cult stop I love him so much stop that should tell you so much about his personality.

49:43He's so great. And when someone would say that to you, like, what did you say? No, I was like, no, I hate that people can't understand the depth of relationship that happens when you find your chosen family and you just commit to them. Why does it have to be a cult? Why does it have to be weird? Like, I feel so bad for you that you don't understand what it's like to have this kind of depth of relationship. How sad and shallow must your life be? oh my god you doing that even now joy i'm like oh my god i feel like shit but i could see how people around you then would just like roll their eyes and like okay i'm literally walking back on set like there's no point yes so you can and and you have again we have all been there when someone genuinely believes something so deep to their core there is no point to try to change that everyone is on their own path and journey and you gotta let people figure it out on their own through their own time it doesn't mean they didn't care but I can imagine it's like what are we all going to do have an intervention like yeah we're here to do a job she's nice when she's around us that's all we care about you know that's it it just became a professional environment and they did I know Paul Johansson and probably Greg Pranger executive producer and a couple other people had a meeting at one point like let's talk about this do we need to be worried about her you know is she financially this looks bad is she in danger like what do we need to do but I think at the end of the day they realized exactly what you just said and nobody can wake you up but you like at some point it's just the right time you write about how at the time you couldn't be friends with Sophia Bush because of your own insecurities and militant beliefs what was it about Sophia that made you uncomfortable?

51:29I think we were both approaching life from a similar way, but from opposite perspectives. So the motive I think was similar in she, she, I didn't, I'm not her. I didn't grow up as her, but I, I think she, uh, grew up with some very specific beliefs about life and how things should be done and pursued that. And that can also be really wonderful. But the way that we were approaching it maybe was too similar. And because the conclusions that we had come to about life and God and all those things were very different, there just was no space for listening. She would have been much more quick to listen to my perspective and hear me than I would have been at the time.

52:23Yeah. But I think fundamentally, there was probably a similarity. I mean, I think for a while, Brooke Davis and Haley didn't get along on set anyways, or on the screen. So it kind of worked. But like, was it difficult on set where you're just like, not getting completely along with someone, but like, you don't know how to handle it and you're young. Yeah, those were those days were hard because I it was this sort of and I think I write about this, too. I know I did the paralysis and desire at the feeling of like, I want to connect with you. I want to be friends with you. Why can't we? Why don't you know how?

53:03Why don't I know how? What is wrong? And yet we have to show up and pretend like we're really close and so we're going through the motions of close friendship but not actually knowing how to connect it's hard it's hard it's hard I mean I think you could feel that in romantic relationships too where you know you love someone you know you have all these things in common you just like why are we not what's going on yeah why is it not working yeah but especially when you're that young and you have so many other friends and so many other things at some point you're just like I don't know yes yeah you know like all good let's just leave it at what it is Yeah.

53:37Have you guys talked about that and like just kind of gone through everything that happened back then in the day or? A little bit, not not as much as I would like. And on Drama Queens, we've definitely talked a lot about our time back then and what was hard and how great it was to reconnect and the feelings of unraveling things that were so mysterious to us at the time. but no it's it's an ever-evolving journey there are still plenty of people in my life that I man shame is a tough thing like I one of the reasons why I really feel passionate about telling this story now whereas before I was so reluctant at first but I think shame gets smaller and smaller the more you expose it and the more you just open up and say this this is my mess like but even having conversations with my stepsister or like my little brother and having those moments of like hey I disappeared for 10 years and I'm really sorry like I don't I've had those moments very briefly but it's painful because it's shame you know I can't imagine joy honestly like and I appreciate you talking about that because I feel like again back to an abusive relationship like it takes so long for someone to just even like get back to you can't even get back to who you were because you were so young so it's like who am I without this abusive situation that I was in for so long and I think like the repairing of the relationships from what I understand from a lot of people that went through a long abusive situation is like it's almost just this huge heavy thing that you know is sitting in the corner but you're like fuck but first I got to make sure I'm really good because then I I first have to make sure I'm good so then I can begin to rebuild these relationships because if I'm still not good then it's like what is the use of reaching out and having these difficult conversations on top of that the difficult conversations you do kind of have to acknowledge what happened and it's again and it's again and it's again and it's like taking accountability and also like asking for grace and understanding and it's like there's no right way to get back into a relationship with someone after being a different person in the relationship and it's like it's a lot I have a lot of empathy for you thank you I you're speaking so eloquently about it and I it's really interesting to talk with you because I feel like even just hearing the way that you're phrasing things puts things in perspective for me that, you know, I lived it, it's all in my brain in the jumble.

56:27But as much as I was able to put on paper, my thoughts, there's still so many things that are tangled that I still try and unwind. But what you were just saying about needing to feel like I'm, I'm good, I'm okay, before I go reach out. For me, that was more isolating. Like I needed to connect with people and not even necessarily in a, in a way of like, Hey, clean me up. You know, that was obviously I have to do my own work, but, um, experiencing the grace that you just said and that the forgiveness and the looking across at somebody who's just like I made mistakes too and it's okay like we're all doing that that's welcome to being a human being hello good morning I think I think that's the biggest moment that a lot of people in abusive situations have this moment where they're like whoa I thought everyone was gonna just like never forgive me and turn their backs yeah and everyone's like babe we've been waiting for you yes like we love you welcome back yes and I think it's like it's humbling because again when you're in the abusive situation the abuser makes you feel like none of them love you they will be they will not be there if you leave me I'm the only thing you have yeah and so you believe that and then the minute you leave everyone's like oh my god who's gonna who's gonna catch her first we're all here we're ready with open arms and that must be very overwhelming It was that was the biggest shock leaving because it has to get so bad that you're willing to be alone in the world rather than stay another second in that situation.

58:14And then turns out you're not. And then it turns out you're not. It's the biggest surprise and the biggest gift. We have so much still to go through. We're not there yet. But that makes me so happy to know because I think so many people listening are like, oh, my God, I needed to hear that. because they may be sitting in their car listening to this going home to that abuser being like wait yeah maybe this is the sign that like because I do feel that right now I feel like I only have him or I only have her and then it's like yeah they are making you feel that way on the one tree hill thing because I do know and I talk about this a lot with actors like there is this like voyeuristic thing that fans become obsessed with these dynamics and that's why I was asking about the Sophia thing because it was interesting seeing you write about it in the book because we all fell in love with you and her and all the characters on this show.

59:02I have to ask because it's Call Her Daddy. Fans are speculating that things between you and Hillary are not great, not friends anymore, don't follow each other on social media. I don't want to get too much into it because I know it's like this is your personal life. I just wondered if you have anything to like say about it I I love Hillary I have always and will always and I don't have any problem with her there have been some bizarre misunderstandings that I really hope we can figure out one day but I I love that girl yeah thank you for sharing sure um have you had any conversations about signing up for the reboot no this it's way too early to even talk about that okay I know I don't know if it was a press release or something leaked or I don't know I mean I had heard about it but Are we going back to Tree Hill?

59:48Haley, we're going back. Okay, good to know. Too early. Too early. Okay. Okay.

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1:03:15Cause I knew you wanted to do more things and didn't you have like an opportunity on Broadway that they stopped? Like how much did they have a hold of your career? Yeah, that was tough. That was a tough pill to swallow. I mean, gosh, we started out on the show and it was budding and it was so successful. And, you know, the fans of TRL and now the show's everywhere and we're doing Teen Vogue and I'm getting auditions for huge studio movies or screen tests. Rather, it was like they were they were much farther along than I had ever been, because once you have that kind of exposure, the studios are much more likely to sign off on you on their list.

1:03:51And so it was, it was an exciting time. And I was so far along in my submission and abdication to this group that I, and the thing was that it was disguised as submission to God. And so in that from that place, everything about my career started to then funnel through the group because I didn't trust my own instinct to know if I was on the right path or taking the right job. I think we all struggle enough with making decisions, especially if you're somebody with ADHD, who is just like, I can't I can stand in front of a line at Starbucks for 10 minutes, and everyone hates me. So let alone big life decisions, it's so paralyzing if you don't know that you can kind of make any choice and it's all going to work out okay.

1:04:44So yeah, there were, I was cast as Belle in Beauty and the Beast and gave that up at the advice, the heavy handed advice of Les, the Les character in the book. There were some really big movies that I was on a shortlist for, auditioned for, was pinned for and then I had to call my agent and be like you know what I actually don't I don't want I don't want to do this I don't want to continue auditioning for this why do you think they didn't want you to do it well I think it's just control like the more that I worked the less they would see me the more that I worked the more confidence I would be gaining in my abilities and my creativity, you know, if I just stayed playing one character for 10 years, and I never did anything else, then they know where I am all the time, basically.

1:05:43I'm not gaining a sense of freedom in traveling, traveling all over the world. I'm not meeting new people, because they had a handle on who was on set, who the people were that I was working with, they knew how to control my perspectives of all the people. But if I'm meeting new people, if I'm in New York, and I'm in a new show, if I'm traveling to Greece to film a movie, there was just no way to control that. They also controlled your finances. Yes, ma 'am. Okay. How did that come to be? And did you have any hesitations when you handed over your finances to these people? Yes, I did. Okay. Your gut never goes away.

1:06:28Nope. I got married to another group member and

1:06:38a very Christian tradition, maybe in other religions too. I don't know where you merge your finances when you get married. I think there's probably a lot of secular people who also merge their finances when they get married as a sign of unity and we're doing this together. like great uh and so that's what i did i just did the dutiful christian wife thing and merged my accounts and it never it didn't occur to me of course that i was going to be taken advantage of it was more just that gut check of like this is mine yeah like i've been working really hard for all of this. And I'm not sure that I should just be randomly adding someone else's name to the account, but it's, I'm going to marry him.

1:07:33So I guess it's okay. So you end up marrying who was the cult leader's son. Yeah. And you talk about him as QB in the book. How would you describe your relationship at first with this man? Playful and easy. We didn't have a lot in common. There wasn't a lot of intellectual stimulation, but there was, I mean, I kind of run out of options. Like I couldn't date a non-Christian. I couldn't really date anybody outside of the group or certainly not anybody who lived anywhere outside of that area. So, yeah, it just became this sort of arranged situation. Can you explain the concept that you write about in the book about spiritual authority in relationships?

1:08:33yeah super typical in many um christian communities this idea that um the man is the spiritual authority in a household so spiritual authority would be i think as far as i understood it in the group it was the man it basically gets the last word on everything and he gets the final say and you really are not allowed to question him you can't question his decisions you can't know about deep intimate things in his life he has to go to other men for that but he's responsible for you and he's supposed to know all the deep intimate things about your life that's how it was presented to me but not in those words otherwise I would have been like y 'all crazy let me clarify Alex that's not how it was presented yeah yeah it was a way better way that they talked about it um you saved yourself for marriage but ultimately you write about having no sexual desire for your husband at the time how did this impact the way you understood sex it was so difficult um I don't know how people in other cultures who have arranged marriages do it.

1:09:50I can only come from my Western perspective, but I don't want to assume that that's the only way of doing things. But for me, based on my upbringing, and I was really, like I said, I was boy crazy. I had a crazy sex drive. It's kind of amazing that I didn't have sex until I was married. It felt like this promise that I had been given as a good evangelical was a big crock. Like, what the heck? I thought if I save myself for marriage, then the promise is amazing sex and super deep intimacy and nothing's ever as good. And it's just like the best thing ever. God created sex and it's just going to be the best thing ever.

1:10:38And then we have sex and it's like, why do I feel so sad? Why, why is this not, I don't feel more connected to you. I feel farther away from you. I, I, it's, it wasn't. And, and I don't think that necessarily had anything to do with saving myself for marriage. It was just that I married the wrong person. I mean, that also is hard to say because I have an amazing daughter. And so is anything wrong? Like here I am hopefully able to help a lot of people so it's hard to say that any of those choices were wrong but uh in the moment I definitely felt like oh no this is this can't be it this is bad when you realized that obviously I know you wrote about in the book which was very sad about this schedule that was essentially implemented into your relationship can you talk about that it's so it's so wild to even just hear you say that it's sad because I know I haven't talked to a lot of people about that I wrote it and just was like okay I wrote it move on keep going um that I to clarify yeah daddy gang yes uh that it was I didn't have this attraction I didn't have the drive, um, really ever, we just weren't connected.

1:12:03We weren't the right people for each other. And so, um, because I was so disinterested in sex, I was then asked to go on a schedule basically of like, here's how you can, you just have to do it. Just do it. This is your duty. this is your job as a wife, your emotions will fall in line. If you do it enough, then eventually you will find a way to enjoy it. You will find a way to feel connected. And you know, it's at that point, you're like, again, the things that you hear, if you heard it right away, you'd be like, this shit's crazy. I'm out. But when you're that far down the line, and you've so much at stake, and now I'm in a marriage, and now I'm tied up with and I have no other friends outside of this group.

1:12:51And I've, I've made a commitment and I take marriage seriously. And I made a promise before God, like, this is something I really want to figure out how to make it work. So I, I hated it. But I was like, Okay, if this is what I'm supposed to do, I will just, I'll just make sure that it's happening every, you know, well, he was back and forth between, uh, the Pacific Northwest and Wilmington a lot. So the schedule had more to do with when he was in town, but, um, yeah, it was, it, it was a routine that we, that I had to participate in, in order to keep the peace in my marriage. When he would come into town, would you like, Oh my God, my God.

1:13:35Like I just, my stomach dropped every single time. And in fact, it really affected my relationships afterwards, like other boyfriends that I would have when I had to go pick them up from the airport. I had so much PTSD from showing up at the airport to see him knowing that I was going to have to start this sex schedule for the next like two weeks or three weeks or whatever. And it's so sad because he, like poor guy, like never had a shot, was raised by this narcissist. He's, he's thrust into a marriage with a girl that's not right for him. He's doing the best that he can. He's been fed all these lies about men and machismo and warriors and all this shit that like he was raised in that.

1:14:16So it was just a mess all around. No, it just makes me really. Yes, it is sad, Joy. It is sad to hear you because I think a lot of women can relate to that of not wanting to do something, but knowing to keep the peace. That is the way to go. And it's so frustrating because a lot of people unless you're involved in something don't understand how to break the cycle because a lot of times I think as women we're just taught like it's better to just appease the situation and just like not cause a problem rather than speaking up for ourselves and trying to get out of it because that could lead to violence which you write about in the book there's so many things that can come from going against the grain so sometimes you just fall in It's exactly what you were talking about with your Paris story, by the way.

1:15:07That's the same thing. I'm stuck in this situation. I just want to, how do I make it just go away? Just get it over with. It'll be done. Maybe this will help. Maybe this will be the thing that brings us together. It's a reasonable thing to assume because there are so many marriage therapists out there who will tell you when they're looking at a couple who's been married for 25 years and they're not interested in each other anymore. they're like listen you have to go through the motions sometimes because it'll help you remember who you were together a long time ago it's not crazy advice it's just crazy advice in that circumstance yes yes thank you for clarifying yes that was a good one um at this time also I wanted to just like kind of talk about the juxtaposition of like we have Haley and Nathan being this it couple on television did you ever catch yourself like loving your tv marriage and almost like using that as a form of escapism from your real marriage oh for sure I did yes and and only in the moments when the cameras were rolling and so it worked with the storyline I mean Nathan Haley had great chemistry and so I I leaned into it um but I thank God James and I were able to really maintain a totally professional relationship like I just never I always sort of saw him in real life as a brotherly figure and he was lovely um So we never crossed that boundary and I never had to worry about having feelings for like that would have been really, really difficult.

1:16:34But no, I but I just knew also like because of the controlling aspect of this cult, like were they OK with your like having even just like an onscreen romantic relationship where you're having to kiss this co-star? Like, how did that go? Nobody cared except my husband. I mean, he hated it, but he also wanted me to quit acting. So I would stop making out with other guys. There you go. Yeah. There you go. OK, so as you're we're kind of getting towards like now, like the big moment where you're going to realize you need to leave. But I want to talk about and I know I love that you mentioned this earlier.

1:17:11There is an obvious disconnect between you and your husband at the time. but something so beautiful came out of your relationship, which is your daughter. And that you write about so beautifully of like, she's your everything. And so you did get something incredible out of such a horrific experience for those 10 years. When you had this child with your husband, like, had you guys talked about wanting to start a family together? he wanted to I wasn't ready because I was miserable and it just took a long time I mean it it took long enough for me to get to a place where I felt like okay we're we're happy enough like we're friendly enough it seems like we're on a pretty good track so let's just I think we're ready now I didn't know when you're supposed to have a baby or not supposed to or I didn't know what to do but I knew that I was not in misery and I and I wanted I did want a baby I'd always wanted a baby I always wanted to be a mom yeah um but I didn't want to do it in a time when I was full of emotional turmoil and that took about six years to get to that point so you talk about you're on set of one tree hill someone's like are you in a cult You're like, no, you don't get it.

1:18:43Take me to the moment that it did click for you. Oh, this is not one big happy family. This is a cult. Yeah. When did you realize? It was after the show. Unfortunately, it had just ended in November. I believe I was in LA in February and pilot season. And I mean, there's no auditioning up in the Pacific Northwest it wasn't a life that I was realistically going to be able to live and keep my insurance or the only insurance and the only income that we had and all the money was gone at that point so which I didn't totally know but they knew so I think that's probably why my ex and his dad were like yeah maybe you should get an apartment in LA maybe time to get back on set let's get you a job uh so i yeah we were we were in la and i uh have been in therapy i felt more like i would like to talk with someone about all of the misery that i'm experiencing and i would like that person to be outside of this family and as i did that the therapy was immensely helpful for me and started to teach me about boundaries.

1:19:58And because my ex-husband had some violent tendencies, the first thing that my therapist was addressing with me was, hey, not okay for somebody to be physically violent towards you, around you. This is not okay on a routine basis. Absolutely. And so I started to implement boundaries. And I think after that, after I extracted my daughter and myself from a physically abusive environment, I was more willing to look at things from alternative perspectives. my therapist I remember probably two months after that was like are we ready to call it a cult yet which was brave of her and I was like no like I would not be that stupid like no that is not me guess what me yep she was right it took it took a minute though it like it may be I was very uncomfortable with it and I I had to uh to really sit with that for a while but once it once I once she said that and all the pieces really started to like lock into place it became clear that it was really unhealthy I think something really beautiful also that you're talking about, again, to anyone in a situation similar with these themes of essentially being isolated to then be abused and manipulated is the minute you have someone who doesn't want you to interact with anyone outside of the people they can control, that is the biggest red flag.

1:21:46because you just getting a little bit of an opportunity to speak to someone that is licensed to speak with you and help you set boundaries which every single human being should have boundaries in their life with other humans and you're seeing this like it was such an opportunity for you again to grow and to recognize like what you didn't want in life but that completely threatens your ex-husband's ability to control you and so I think that for people listening I I hope you can take it. If like, if you feel like the only person you can constantly turn to is the person who is hurting you the most, that is your sign that you are in an abusive situation.

1:22:25They need, they can only control you if you are alone with them. And of course you can go to work and you can have friends, but you know that there's a different level of going to work. And when's the last time you actually had a girl's night and he didn't have tabs on you? You know what I mean? It's like it's so quick that it flips because like I said to you earlier, like, oh, so you were going to work like you can look like you're living a very normal life. It's just inside of you. You have these guardrails that you know that you can't go outside of. And it's really fucking difficult to get away from that because you become conditioned.

1:23:01Yeah. Yeah. You think that you're not alone, but the more your gut is telling you, you feel like you're completely isolated. Can you share with us, and I know we talked about this earlier, but coming back to the process of leaving and untangling your life from these people and this cult, what was that experience like? Because again, we talked about how it's terrifying, and then what was your experience? It was terrifying. It was my only friends, so I thought, suddenly turned on me. And they were showing up at my house for custody exchanges, trying to intimidate me and flanking my ex on either side.

1:23:50Like goons just ready to watch me or ready to film me. doing like to have your best friends who you've shared your most vulnerable intimate secrets with suddenly turn around and like overnight just that's it you're you're if you're not with us you're against us if you're not part of us you're the enemy and to be treated like an enemy is is from someone who who you've been very very close with all of a sudden no conversation no there just was no willingness to see because the stakes are so high for them too yeah you know like it's understandable objectively but you go into this custody battle and and you write about something i thought was really interesting about can you talk to me regarding the lawyers and the court and how they reacted to you explaining this cult experience to them This is one of the most frustrating things about all of it, because I began to realize how broken the family court system is in this country.

1:24:58the saying is no bruise no case if you don't have a physical altercation with someone they don't consider it abuse in the court because how do you legislate or even qualify mental abuse emotional abuse spiritual abuse I mean that's that's the hardest one too because the courts or like, I don't want to touch anything religious, church and state, like, no.

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1:26:29That's why Tinder has astrology mode and music mode. It's an easy way to break the ice and start the conversation. Daddy gang, explore all the possibilities for yourself. Tinder. It starts with a swipe. Download Tinder today must be 18 plus. I want to ask you this mostly because I do think it's so indicative of the like exploitiveness of this dynamic and the abuse of like through the custody battle you write about how you had to spend so much money in court like around the number can you share like how much these people took from you financially well when I was in the group they took two million dollars from me when I got out I had about 250 left which is not nothing I mean that's a significant amount of money but the court costs in total were about 350 350 000 and that was so so I left the group with money in the bank that was already committed to other things like my mortgage like like the which I ended up having to do a short sale on like like the IRS like so many unpaid bills and there were lawsuits I didn't know about that I had to I mean it was absolute financial abuse it was just a total mess so everything you basically made from one tree hill just gone oh my god and another relatable thing about this for so many women who are in abusive relationships is the financial tie that they're like i can't leave because what am i gonna do who's gonna pay for my kids who's gonna pay for the groceries a lot of them don't have a skill because they've been in a controlled environment for so long so they're like I can't what what kind of job am I gonna get the guy controls all the money and I I was gonna say my advice would be get out anyway and just trust that it's gonna be okay but that's a really cheap thing to say because I'm not I don't know every single person's situation but But I hate, I guess the heart behind what I am meaning is that I hate for any woman, anyone to be stuck in a situation because of finances.

1:28:57And I know what it's like to be a single mom and not know where next month's rent is coming from. And I learned a lot in that time. I grew a lot and it did, God did always show up for me. Like something always worked out every month. Yeah. It's beautiful. So I can't, you know, like I, I'm not here to give advice, but I can tell what happened for me. But I, and I appreciate the sentiment of it is like leaving something bad. Like you will find something, I believe in the world, like you will find something good that comes to you when you can get out of something like that. As we're kind of like finishing this conversation, I feel like obviously I want everyone to to go read your book and and there's so much in it that is so even more detailing of like how someone can get into the situation because I am so understanding that at face value someone can roll their eyes and be like what do you mean you were in a cult like you asked for this like again and that's why someone needs to listen to this episode and then they'll be like okay wait never mind that's fucking crazy um but can you share like what do you think the biggest misconception people have about cults is.

1:30:12It's the same misconception I had, which is why I didn't think I was in one because I was like, no, cults are crazy people and they all live together in some weird big house and they all wear the same thing and they're all sleeping with the leader and they're all, you know, he's got a million babies with all these ladies and they're doing all kinds of crazy shit and drinking weird things and they don't interact with the rest of the world. like it's everything that you think of from a 1970s flower child you know yes bizarro world cults uh and we've we've come a long way because uh there is no real definition of a cult you can't even use it in court the word cult it's not uh viable you have to say high demand group wow i didn't know that yeah there's there's no legal definition of cult like catholicism i guess is a cult Christianity Buddhism uh SoulCycle like I said before like I love SoulCycle by the way I know I'm just saying I know some people get real hyped on it so but there's no there's no definition so it's it's like we've used it as this slang for things that are super weird that is so helpful because I agree I think people picture like cloaks and like yeah This like voodoo shit.

1:31:33Yeah. No, it's the Illuminati and all these things. Yeah. But you're on set of one tree hill. We're all watching you and it's all going down like it is just you can get into a situation that you don't even know what it is because it's presenting at first as this loving person that's wanting to just be your friend and help you out. Yeah. So you get out and now I'm curious, kind of like the aftermath of how has your experience of going from being so controlled and manipulated by these people impacted your now ability to trust people? Brilliant question. Yeah, you hit the nail on that. I mean, it's really difficult.

1:32:17I joke about it a lot. I'm like, I don't trust anybody, you know. But I don't, I was just talking about this over coffee this morning with a girlfriend. I don't want to go through the world as someone who doesn't trust people. That's not how we're supposed to live. I really believe that's not how we're supposed to live.

1:32:42I also am really grateful for the lesson that it's okay to give people the benefit of the doubt, but maybe not credit, if that makes sense. like you don't you don't get to walk into my life and automatically get the free credit card of like friend here's the friendship credit card swipe it whenever you want do whatever you want with it um but i i will give you the benefit of the doubt if i see something weird or like every that's been the hardest part to navigate alex is just who who is who's just normal and has weird baggage like hello every single human yeah when is the baggage something that's affecting my boundaries in a way that I I just can't engage with yeah when is the baggage something that triggers me but maybe I can learn something and maybe you can learn something and it's worth pushing through yeah I don't it's a case-by-case basis I was gonna say like I was going to ask you how do you learn to trust yourself again but I feel like it's kind of the same it's in the same vein of like you're you're going to learn to trust yourself as you're going to trust other people and when you're feeling something that doesn't make you feel good about that person you're not trusting them as much you then have to turn inward and be like is this because of my trauma or is this because this person is actually showing something that is pushing my boundaries and making me uncomfortable and you have to be able to discern the two and you're not always going to get it right if you're not you're just going to have to at some point let go and trust my last question is like what do you ultimately hope people take away from reading your book well I hope they never join a cult no daddy gang no cults I I just I hope people feel like they're not alone I've said that before I really want people to feel like their own shame, their own mistakes are faceable.

1:34:55That there's hope and that shame, like please don't live in shame. Don't let it keep you closed off and shut down and not talk about things. You have to let it out. You have to let it out of your body. It's the only way to actually find hope and move forward. So I really hope that that's an alleviating thing for people. It is. It's more than alleviating. It is extremely encouraging and hopeful. I cannot thank you enough for coming and having this conversation with me. Thank you. I can already feel just how impactful this is going to be. And I commend you for writing this book. I think it's like so incredible of you to be able to like pen to paper, put down something that consumed your life for 10 years.

1:35:43And I think a lot of a lot of people are going to find not only like comfort in it, but feel very connected to you. And I think you have like a very incredible story, but just you as a human being like sitting with you. I'm like, you're a very inspiring person. And I'm so excited to see what you continue to do. Like, thank you for taking the time. It was literally an honor. Thank you, Alex. Well, I think you're inspiring too. I really, I really do. I think you're so smart and so interesting. And I love the way that you just, that you just embrace life and run, kind of run freely, like open. Your openness is really, really engaging and inviting.

1:36:19And I want more of it in my life. So I'm really grateful I got to spend some time with you today. Thank you.

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