Cole Sprouse: Exploited for Money and Fame (FBF)

0:02What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with call her daddy. Cole Sprouse. Yes. Welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you for having me. Considering how private you are, I'm so happy that you're here because I'm excited for people to get to know you a little bit better. Maybe even have you talk about some things that you've never talked about before. Sure. Let's go. Okay. Let's get into it. No, I will say I really like how conversational your podcast is. Thank you. And I think that that's missing a lot from the publicity space, that there's like this curation that I believe does a tremendous disservice to actual guests on something.

0:49And the conversational nature of just the podcast space in general, but particularly yours, is really refreshing. My publicists are obviously not here. Cole showed up alone. They know that they have very, very little control over the lunacy that whatever. happens on on set so they're like okay dude he's just gonna be this whirling dervish we might as well just let him go i will say i love it because i've had people show up here with 20 people and then i've had people like you that show up alone this is what i prefer i show up to a lot of things alone were you like nervous showing up here at all um i was nervous because my girlfriend was like hey this is she's gonna pepper you with some really interesting questions but that's kind of it shout out to coles girlfriend we love you for giving him a little bit of a taste of what he's about to get on caller daddy okay so let's get into it let's go back to kind of the beginning you and your twin brother dylan were born in italy yes why were your parents in italy and when did you move to the united states uh my parents were teaching out there at the time they were part of this school slash cult i can't really figure out what it was um but But my father was teaching physical education and my mother was an art teacher and we were living in Tuscany and we were just born out there because it was romantic and sexy.

2:04And and then we I mean, we moved when we were very young. We ended up moving to Switzerland and then my parents got a divorce and my mother moved us back to the U.S. to like Studio City between Studio City and Long Beach. And that's when we started acting. Acting. OK. Twins are a lot. Mm hmm. Have your parents ever talked to you about how hard it was in the beginning? Like, were they ready to be parents and ready for two newborns? No, no, no. My father got a vasectomy immediately after he found out he was having twins. Okay. Yeah. And they shared that with you? Oh, yeah. My father and I have a very good relationship.

2:38He's very open about all that stuff. So you and Dylan booked your first acting gigs before you were even one year old. Yeah. I had diaper commercials. what did your parents explain to you as to like why you were auditioning so young well my mother needed an income I mean there's two I think there's two types of kids within you know the child acting business there's like the thespian children that choose to do it and then there's the working class kids that that in our case at least twins are a great labor exploit because babies can only work for a certain amount of hours so you double the time if you have two of them to look identical um so it was i mean it started really as a means to put bread on the table and um also allow my mother at the same time to be a mother um but to make her main focus and her job are careers i mean it made me think kind of like mary kate and ashley it's a great example yeah because like obviously i remember on full house it was like you can just swap in each kid when it's like oh you you're up on what is it like five hours you can work or something at Even less.

3:44I mean, every year it gets a little a little bit more. But in most cases, a baby can only work like an hour or two hours. When you think about that, like you as a kid being like. I wasn't conscious until this last year. So please go ahead. Cole's like, I don't even know where I remember fucking breakfast. So no, it is crazy because I do. I was like thinking about that of like the child labor laws of how you have a better way to. I too often think of child labor laws. And how do you feel about that, Cole? I mean, to be honest, I get a lot of people asking me like, oh man, you really went through the gamut.

4:23Oh man, all this. But in very many ways, it was like, you know, the golden ticket from Willy Wonka. It was a really, it was a great means to an end.

4:49do you mind if i have a cigarette please have your cigarette you know what gold let's open the door i don't know people get people are all cool about it's fine everyone's smoking weed in like a studio but not a fucking cigarette tobacco and everyone who gets like this it's fine it's fucking fine i'm curious did you even go to like elementary school i did um it was off and on we it was in between jobs mainly but most of my younger curriculum was homeschooled which is great because to be honest I did not feel like I missed out on much everyone that talks to me about their high school experience I was like this sounds fucking horrible it wasn't great it wasn't great Cole but I'm wondering do you remember when you were in elementary school like how did people treat you because I know you weren't famous famous but like big daddy you were what five yeah six and And when we were kids, I don't think they really cared too much.

5:40Some of them knew that we were actors. But Dylan and I, Dylan specifically, was a huge bully. So our navigation through elementary school and middle school, we were like fucking dicks. How would he bully people? He would beat them up. He would beat them up. And then I became known as the twin that would come up and be like, I'm so sorry for my brother. Wait, I kind of feel like that was your character also on Zack and Cody. Well, I think the writers on Zack and Cody took a lot of cues from our actual personalities. But yeah, he was a real bully. Your brother's like, what the fuck? Thanks, Cole.

6:24Oh, no, I say this all day. Everyone knows that he's a bully. And he's fine with it. I don't know if he's fine with it. I think he's still got some stuff to work out. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So how are the two of you different in personality? Like if people don't know you, they just know your on-screen personalities. What is the difference personality-wise? My brother's a lot more stubborn. I would say pig-headed as his brother, but he is very much a natural leader. Like he, a lot of people respect his opinion because he goes into his opinions incredibly boldly, where I will sort of tiptoe and sense the room.

7:00And yeah, it's interesting. We're very, very different. And I think most twins get more distinct as time goes on. But we're still best friends. I mean, he lives like 10 minutes from me. Do you guys talk every day? Every day. Yeah, every day. It's very cute. Very cute. I mean, when I moved to Vancouver for Riverdale, It was probably the biggest amount of distance we've ever had between each other. And we felt it, man. It was sad. It genuinely made me upset. So back to what you were saying about your parents split when you were how old? Ooh, I mean, I think before a year. Yeah. Okay. I only have one memory of them still together for sure.

7:49What is that memory? Oh, it was me riding on the back of my mother's bike in a little baby seat in Switzerland. And we were down this little bike path because, you know, Europeans love that shit. And there were aspen trees and owls and things. It was very picturesque. I actually can't tell if I've completely fabricated this memory now, but I'd like to think there was this idyllic origin. Yeah. Were they on the same page about your career, Zoe? No. Okay. No. My mother definitely was fascinated by the industry far more than my father was. My father's a very blue-collar dude, grew up super, super rough.

8:28He's an automotive repairman. So he had a very blue-collar approach to understanding our business. I'm very thankful for my father's just philosophy of life because it allowed me to take none of this too seriously, which is great. but uh yeah I don't I would say he did not really understand he saw the money and was like hey this is quite lucrative and I come from a family of 49ers so it was like this is a gold rush man you gotta you gotta strike this vein while it's hot but uh I think he understands that more than anything when you say that your parents obviously were on different pages at what age do you did you recognize that and like what were those conversations well I was my both my brother and I were given, we went through a lengthy court battle at about 10, and custody was stripped from my mother and given to my father.

9:23And at that point, I said, my mother thinks of this a little differently than my father does. Yes. And it's interesting, because in very many ways, the court system, especially in cases of divorce, and in cases of custody is in very, very large favor of the mother and in this instance it probably should have been the father and I I think his philosophy of that approach towards our careers and grounded like he he desperately wanted us to be normal kids and my mother wanted us to be more than or sort of a bit more of a caricature of two you know normal kids some extraordinary thing which is beautiful in its own right but um I think it does a disservice to children who are also working to be treated as anything more or less than like their peers.

10:17Yeah. I mean, obviously that is telling. Like usually the mother would be getting custody. Were there more things like behind the scenes other than just like the forward facing like we disagree with your career? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. I mean, I think I've said this once in an interview and it was totally misconstrued. But I believe that celebrity and success and, you know, financial excess or surplus in a single generation is an elected trauma in very many ways. I have watched a lot of people come into success from much less in a single generation. And they all have a very codified kind of sickness afterwards.

11:04words. And it's one of this industry in general, I believe, cultivates an incredible amount of vanity and narcissism that can destroy people. And it doesn't matter your age. I've seen it when I was younger, and I've seen it now as an adult, but like, that kind of narcissism, that self centeredness can end up really undoing people. And so there was plenty, plenty behind the scenes, I think in very many ways, my brother and I were lucky, mainly because we were young boys. Like the fascination when we were younger, at least on the Disney Channel, was like of Miley and Selena and a lot of these girls because they were heavily sexualized, which is another huge fucking issue.

11:47But the fascination, which was young womanhood. My brother and I, in very many ways, went through all of the same trappings except the lens wasn't on us as tightly, which I'm very, very grateful for. And I think was, you know, I think at the time was just coincidence. And as I've grown older, I feel very blessed to not have had that sort of shown. But yeah, we went through a lot. And I think it also has contributed to my conflict with this industry as I've grown up. Like the philosophy of continuing it within acting. has been definitely shaped by how I've watched people torn asunder by it. I remember when you said earlier, like, I started this as a job to put food on the table for my family.

12:41Then there's other people that are like, I want to be an actress. I want to be an actor. You didn't really have a choice. Are you in any way resentful of your parents that they put you in that position so young? No. No, I'm not. My parents did not come from too much. and I have now been granted a life of primarily financial stability and surplus in very many cases that is the byproduct of working for 30 years and sort of trading my childhood but I don't regret it at all I don't regret it at all I know that there's there there's definitely resentment there's definitely some things I have to work through but no if I were given the same choice again I'd probably do it again the world I feel like can be pretty rough to child actors sure and it's not fair but I do feel like we hear more sad stories than happy sure were your parents ever checking in to make sure that you guys didn't go down a dark and dangerous path absolutely I mean my father primarily okay my father's like my best friend yeah he's a really really solid dude and he had he had such a rough upbringing that I think he was able to recognize empathetically when when my brother or I were going through something like can you give us an example like take us back to like you're in Zack and Cody right and you're going through it you're working at Disney Channel what is your dad saying to you guys in those moments you know funny enough I get asked about Disney a lot because I think a lot of people want to sort of poke the bear and see you know how how atrocious the channel was by the time my brother and I got to Disney Channel we were good it was a huge boon to us it was it was in very many ways a life-saving show it provided us with an amount of stability and consistency and routine that really was needed for my brother and I at the time.

14:50Everyone has had a different experience there. I've had former Disney stars on and every single person's recount of what happened to them or what they felt from it is very different. Yeah, that's interesting to me too. Why? Because a lot of those kids came from privilege. You know, I find that a lot of the times it's much easier to complain about the business approach of a larger studio when you don't need the money as much you know it's it's it's really intriguing like like when you when you approach this career as a sort of passion and you're starting to learn the language of these major studios and the language is always money um you start to become discontented but if you start from a working kid background and you're like, yeah, this is money, baby.

15:48You're not as surprised or discontented when your boss or the studio chooses a money-based approach to your career. And I'm not delegitimizing anything they say. It is no doubt it is already incredibly conflicting to be a child hoisted up to the criticism of an entire nation and also be working nine to five. But I think it's important if you're learning about someone's own history to know the historian and their background. This Nepo baby argument, as an example, has been, in my opinion, something my brother and I have been talking about since we were kids, but it's now just recently become a hot topic in the public.

16:37And this is a major distinction this kind of this nepotism or elitism has existed within the industry for a very long time and I find it's a lot easier to complain about the philosophy of a boss like I mentioned earlier when you when you come from a position of privilege where maybe you don't need the surplus as much as another another child does you mentioned that when you got the Suite Life of Zach and Cody it was a lifeline because I was asking you like how would your dad keep you guys from going down that bad path so prior to Suite Life where were you two at mentally oh man I don't think I've ever talked about this um because in very many ways I was lucky for it not to be uh discussed but when we were given when my father was given forced custody uh we had pretty much lost everything from the youngest parts of our career.

17:39That would be friends and big daddy and a lot of that. My mother was an incredibly wonderful and artistic woman, but she was financially the most irresponsible person ever. So we really didn't have much. We moved in with our father who, you know, was a very blue-collar dude, and we lived underneath this wonderful Russian couple named Helen and Vadim in like the back of their house and little baby Nikolai. Shout out little baby Nikolai. You're probably quite old now. The prospect of the consistency of just the money alone was life-changing for not only my brother and I at the time, but also my father.

18:23So my father was in big support of this ball that was already rolling down the hill, you know what I mean? And he was guiding us with a very gentle but firm hand towards a sort of moral compass that I think was needed for who I am today. My brother and I, you know, in very many ways we tried to stay out of trouble. We were a couple dorks that were far more interested in playing video games and Warhammer and our sort of board game stuff with our friends than going out and partying and stuff. And we also, you know, we were 13 but looked 8. I was 16 and I looked 10. I had a bowl cut and, you know, I looked like a little Dutch girl.

19:09It was incredible. And I think that kept us out of a lot of trouble. It was phenomenal, let me just say. I'm going to bring it back. Don't worry. Now that you have the hindsight of that pretty pivotal moment for you with your family, how does it make you feel now? about what just your mom losing all the money that you worked for and then having to i don't blame her she's human okay i think in very many ways we are all more or less durable to the trappings of success and everyone has their own personal navigation through that stuff and And I think she was, I think if anyone knew the kind of woman she was, they could have said it would have gone the exact same way.

20:00I am remorseful in very many ways that she wasn't able to get out of it. But I don't blame her at all because she's a human. And even more than that, she was an artist. Yep. So I think it's very funny because artists now, I mean, now we're holding them to a very, very high standard just publicly. But most of us only join the arts because we're pretty fucked up. It's that this place is like a vortex, man. man yeah it is you you get into this stuff because you're probably a pretty arcane person just to begin with and uh i think i don't blame her in the slightest yeah you know how did booking the suite life of zach and cody change your life i mean money straight up i i'd love to say it was a more complicated thing but the financial stability i mean my father and i my father Dylan and I we moved to our own house a year afterwards um and that gave us the kind of freedom and the base the foundation in order to feel more at home and to lock in our private sphere of existence and and to continue from there but uh yeah I'm not gonna lie the money was fucking great yeah can you take us through like what was the day like on set yeah it's awesome And it was great.

21:27I mean, I remember complaining around the water cooler as a child, but I look back now, it was like the easiest gig ever. Tell us. So Monday was a table read day, which meant the whole cast and the producers and the writers and some of the crew would sit around a large table and we would read the script for the first time. We'd do a very light rehearsal. Tuesday would be our crew run through. So we would do the whole thing on the stage from front to back. in front of the crew and the writers, and then they would take their notes. Wednesday was a producer run-through, so we'd have the execs from Disney come down and they would watch the episode live as we were performing it on stage.

22:10And then Thursday, we would shoot half the episode, and Friday, we would shoot the other half in front of a live audience. Did you guys have fun? Oh, we had a great time. We had a great time. I can imagine how close you obviously are with your brother, the two of you, and because you said your characters kind of were able to morph a little bit to your personality you did have very vice versa yeah we we we adopted quite a bit of that of who they were as well as we aged who was your friend group at disney and do you still talk to anyone oh i was a fucking asshole on disney man i was a really angry kid okay um i wasn't i was a super angry kid and I think in the most cliche way like like angsty teen angsty kid possible um I was atheist at the time and I was doing all my my Dawkins and and Hitchens and and all the kids were Christians so I was I was like really getting off to like the debates and that's a fucking annoying kid that's a really annoying kid just like I'm sure you guys knew one of those dickheads back in the day that was me you're like poking the bear I was poking the bear so you weren't wearing one of the purity rings absolutely not absolutely in fact I was so vocally opposed to that stuff that everyone I mean people the kids thought I was quite radioactive as I recall I mean I I was I was not you know I was not the most popular fellow did Dylan make friends oh yeah and all the girls and all the girls loved him too I was so upset is he still friends with Disney people I don't think too much of us keep up yeah um anymore but I think that's you know that's the nature of of all of us growing but you know I saw I saw Miley as an example at i think jimmy fallon a little while ago and it was a really nice little reunion um it's like you know it's like high school friends that you graduate with and you see them every once in a while you're like oh we used to be so close or something like that i don't think it's more complex than that though i love that dylan started as the bully in elementary school everyone loves the bully contrary to popular belief yeah girls love the bully at least in in high school i guess if he's like a harmless bully i don't know dylan was i don't know i was an intellectual bully which was fucking lame yeah but those are kind of the worst it was the worst i'm saying to you that i was a total piece of shit when you look back at that version i cringe i cringe hard because imagine it's one thing if like the guy looks cool no i had a bowl cut you know that's horrible I remember watching the show and being so like obsessed with you guys and then when I got a tiny bit older I was like they need to cut their fucking hair yeah you were fucking right I wish you had just sat us down to been like dude get off this thing my brother had the same swoop bowl cut that was all the rage back then when were you finally done paying the bills for your family oh man um three years ago three years ago when i when i hit success with riverdale i've also like i i love my father very much my father you know put a lot of his life on hold in order to ensure that my brother and i were okay and i he i owe him a lot for that and if that comes through financial conversations then so be it like i want to get my dad the fucking car he wants.

25:53I want to get my dad the house he wants. You know, I want to make sure he's all good. It's just my father, my brother and I, and our family. So, I mean, that makes it a little easier for financial stability, but, uh, yeah, I, I don't, I don't really mind, you know, I, um, what else, what else is it for? Yeah. You know, I, like you, once you realize the lifestyle you want to acquire financially, like that, I don't think there's anything more noble than taking care of your family with the financial independence that you've been given. So are you not, don't have a relationship with your mom? Not at all.

26:29I mean, in truth, she lost her mind. It was the, I think it was the consequence of some weird alchemy of, of addiction and mental instability. And it's probably the greatest wound in my life and also the greatest driving force for my continuing in this industry but um I miss her I miss her a lot she was an incredibly beautiful and artistic woman every once in a while she'll reach out to me some weird hieroglyphic text some some some macabre you know uh Lovecraftian texts that I try to decipher and try to pinpoint where she is but we have a very very challenged relationship and I think before she had been lost to whatever madness she's currently in now she she really believed believed that I could be the best and I think I think I still do it for her that version of her whatever that version of her was um to kind of keep her dream alive whatever that dream is do you and Dylan have conversations about it kind of kind of kind of it's it's a it's a huge wound for the yeah yeah huge wound um so I'm just you know a guy sitting in a buccable chair with some mommy issues one of many of your guests I'm sure oh I was gonna say Like sadly, it's like this is life, right?

28:06Like we all have our family shit and I appreciate you sharing it because unfortunately it's something that a lot of people experience where like keeping a family together, it's way more rare than having a family that it's got its shit. I tried for very many years. I tried all the things that people said I should try and the things that I felt would be best to try and get her out of her station or whatever it was. But you know what? You can take a horse to water, but you can't make a drink, man.

28:50i feel like at some point everyone experiences some type of mental health oh yeah setback or not me man as we're like getting so deep no i'm fucking chill like i'm great i'm good let's get to the sex alex what's something that you've worked through oh i mean public criticism for sure it's big it it's really it's it's i'm a people pleaser and i'm also like uh i think as a consequence of my incredibly strained relationship to my mother, the very first female voice in my life. I, I, I'm like a nurse. Like I, I'm always like, I'm, I'm one of those fixer guys and that's not good. I, I've, I've had to undo a lot of that in my, in my late twenties.

29:44It caused a lot of, a lot of pain to me, which is something I worked through and I have worked through in therapy and with friends and other people. But the criticism is interesting because it's funny. And going back to the Disney thing, this is always something that gets brought up, which is, wow, Disney just really took it out on you guys, didn't they? And I hate when people say that because it completely disqualifies how the audience contributes to so much of the instability that occurs. people people join in on the feast for crows as this as this sort of cacophony of criticism and they don't ever hold themselves accountable for their own behavior as an individual contributing to a massive criticism which i find to be completely ignorant i know most most artists I know hear the criticism.

30:47Almost all of them did. Myself included. And most of our natures will go, oh man, look at all these nice comments. This is wonderful. But we fucking will go to that one. It doesn't matter what it is. It can be about anything. What is the comment and the criticism that gets you? I find for boys on Disney Channel we were raised with a very a sort of Prince charming uh image imagery and i think for the girls as well there's this wholesome imagery that follows you around and as i have aged and you know come into my own um like advanced adults feelings of sexuality and and of my adulthood and my life and all this sort of stuff and i'm revealed to be through whatever medium um a sinful dirty little hairless ape like the rest of us uh there is a tremendous there's there's a bit of a fall from grace that occurs with that um for for all of us but uh I think I think it's hard I'm such a people pleaser that I I take it hard personally when I feel like I am not helping people or making them feel better or being criticized for a humanity that I rarely try to show right um and this is such a you know this is such a a woo-woo problem.

32:09But like, I don't know, I did take criticism quite hard for a long time, especially as an employee, but also as like a child actor. I think that's something I've gotten over. I think, you know, my relationship to my family has been a very tense mental health conversation over time. But I've been sober for a year and some change now, which has been really great for me and it's allowed me to do the kind of self-work that I think and just the professional work that has allowed me to really ask myself questions as an adult for the first time in my life and go wow maybe you feel this way dude maybe you feel that way dude it's fucking great yeah that's great I'm like a full I am a huge proponent for you know cognitive behavioral therapy and psychiatry and all that sort of stuff when you talked about that because I think it is interesting to people that watched you so heavily on Disney Channel and then you talk about this like we have this image and this fall from grace you kind of you and your brother when you went to college kind of really removed yourself from all of it for a little bit well we it wasn't a removal we actually did the same thing just in a different way so if you think about it as a child you're sold as this immature public commodity, right?

33:27Like this juvenile thing. And then the world sees you as like this infantile entity. And then you hit your teens and you start to have this sexual maturation and this adult maturation. You start to see yourself in relation to your environment far differently. And so it's really an identity crisis. It's you start to want people to see you as the identity that you see yourself as. And many in that case take to public sexual display, take to drug use, take to these means of investing the conversation of their life, a level of adulthood that they are not being afforded by the public. And I think my brother and I sat with each other and just kind of decided the best way to do that would be going away to school and coming out with a diploma and and and that's for us at least but in very many ways you know that that's an arrested development because I found myself in my early 20s going through a lot of that same dilemma just later and I think every single Disney star I guess except for you guys it's like we watch them maybe get on stage and go in a sexual outfit and be like I'm not a fucking kid anymore and it's shoving in our face I'm an adult I'm an adult I'm an adult take me seriously i'm not the little girl anymore i think it solved the same issue um to the public but it didn't solve it within ourselves right like the the publicity worked right but it didn't do the healing part you know you have to do the self-work in order to heal from that you have to have that open conversation with yourself in order to even grow past that And I think I experienced that much of my early 20s after school because I got back into acting and the show.

35:21Riverdale took off overnight and reintroduced me to this buffet of decadency that I had. I had just as much potential as I did as a child to fuck up. So I think that sort of stuff is really valuable if you're actually sitting with yourself and doing the work. Yeah. When you started talking about getting away from child acting, going to college and trying to kind of explore, it did make me think obviously about you and your sexuality. When did you start dating? Like how old were you when you had your first real relationship? You want to hear about how I lost my virginity? Please tell us. This is such a great story.

36:04I feel like it says so much about me. Okay. I was 14 when I lost my virginity. So this is still bull cut guy, right? So just, you know, if you guys are good individual. I was on a family trip in Florida and I met this girl who was older. All right. So that's already dubious. And the first night we kind of made out and the second night, all my buddies had already lost their virginity at this point. I was 14. So that's, that says another thing. But we were down at the beach. actually makes me nervous. It's so cringy.

36:55We were down at the beach. I, like, knocked on her hotel door. She came out. We went down to the beach. We were on some chaise lounges. And I looked at her and I finally, my heart was beating like, and I finally mustered up enough courage to deliver a line that my brother has never, ever let down for me. I looked at her and I was like, so are you like DTF? And she goes, what? And I go, you know, down to fuck. oh no i was 14 okay she looked at me and she was like sure so we went back to the hotel room it's so cringy but it's incredible i look back now it's so funny uh and i text my brother and my buddy charlie who were staying we were all staying in the same hotel room because we were fucking 14 right um i was like dude gotta get out of the room man i've got a girl coming over like You gotta get out of the room, dude.

38:03And so we're walking down the hall. I got my arm around this girl. We're walking down the hall, and I see my brother and Charlie coming walking towards me. And as we pass each other, my mother just looks at me and goes, what the fuck are we supposed to do? And I looked at him, and I said another line that he's never forgiven me for. And I looked at him, and I was like, I don't know. Go play chess or something. Oh! Yeah, lasted about 20 seconds, and never talked to her again. And after that, I became truly a serial monogamist. What? A serial monogamist. I went from long-term relationship to long-term relationship.

38:42Pretty consistently. So the in and out moves was not for you. You're like, I want to be with someone so I can get better at 20 seconds. Maybe let's ramp it up to 60 seconds. Oh, yeah. Well, actually, I mean, not only that embarrassing display. I actually, I mean, I love that story now. It's so stupid. It's so youthful that I think it's quite funny. But I ended up regretting it a little bit afterwards because I hadn't made it special at all. I sort of got it out of the way. And that's not to say it needs to be. But for my own personal approach to it, I was kind of like, eh. Did you lose it before your brother?

39:16I did. Yeah. So he had no words of wisdom. No, actually, in very many ways, he looked at me and was like, well, I'm not doing that. So it was cool. I got to be a guinea pig for him. um but yeah after that I became a serial monogamous did you feel comfortable though in in the beginning of hooking up with people are beginning to get into a relationship because of your fame wide a paranoid person about it actually yeah quite I can see that um I think I think there has there's always a sort of level of judgment and performance that goes into that first experience that I think was compounded for me quite a bit because of my own insecurity of public discourse and all that.