Emily Ratajkowski (FBF)

0:02What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Hello, hello, hello. We're back at it again. Daddy gang, it is another episode of Call Her Daddy. And today we got a big one. We've got Emily Ratajkowski. A lot of you probably think about Emily Ratajkowski and you're like, wow, she's just really hot. Thought ends there. She's really fucking hot. And she is. And I will be honest, no negative feelings towards Emily at all. I just didn't have much of an opinion. I was like, she's beautiful. I wish I looked like her. And that's that. But I had the privilege of meeting her and sitting down with her and reading her book early From the time that Emily was a little girl, how she looked mattered.

1:03And that didn't just come from the outside world. It was generated inside her own home. Her mom, who was also beautiful, and her mom's experience as a beautiful woman directly affected how she raised Emily. In the Ratajkowski household, looks were everything. So then Emily starts modeling in high school and is actually using her looks to make money off of her body. And that complicated things even more. So now instead of just her mom and her dad and random people in the supermarket commenting on her beauty, now it's a creep with a binder filled with her photos commenting on underage Emily's fuckability.

1:55and trigger warning in this episode we are discussing sexual assault two chapters in three four chapters into her book every single chapter is unveiling a new story of her experiencing sexual assault trauma rape I had no fucking idea about any of this. And what's pretty frightening and shocking is that people may not even care. I was staying at the Greenwich Hotel in New York City and I had Emily there like right after I landed. And she walked in and her and her publicist, I had asked them because the news had just broken. Robin Thicke assaulting Emily Ratajkowski had just hit the internet. And I had read the book at that point.

3:01So I knew the behind the scenes and the story and what this man had done and how he was abusing his power and what was going on in Emily's head when all that happened. And then also just the backstory of her having been assaulted numerous other times in her life. Like this was not just a one-off. this woman has been taken advantage of and sexually abused since she was a very young girl and so she walks in and her publicist was like yeah it's really it's really shocking to see some of the comments in twitter people are like oh woe is you emily okay you were fucking dancing around naked on the blurred line set like boo who no fucking shit someone's gonna grab your tits you're naked.

3:46What? You were doing your job. And so for anyone to be like, Emily, you were naked on the set of Blurred Lines. Yeah. And so were multiple other women. And that was their job. That's what they were getting paid to do. I don't care if she's naked or she's wearing a turtleneck that doesn't give you the right to fucking go up and sexually assault someone. Having good looks absolutely gives you a certain privilege that others don't have. That's a fact. But just because you're hot doesn't mean that we can then deem your sexual assault experiences as void because you're just fucking hot. Shut up and go model.

4:25No. Just because you're hot doesn't mean you aren't a feminist. Merriam-Webster definition of feminism. feminism is the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities unless you post bikini photos no like it doesn't fucking say that people that are going to look and be like no because emily is objectifying herself she's posting these slutty bikini photos and she's the one that's making herself an object no so maybe you're the type of feminist that likes to wear turtlenecks. Amazing. You're doing great, sweetie. Or there's Emily who likes to post bikini photos to make money.

5:13Again, you're doing great, sweetie. There is no right or wrong brand of feminism. If you believe in the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of equality of the fucking sexes, then you are a feminist. Emily's book is a discourse on how being treated like an object affects a person. You can be privileged, but that doesn't exempt you from feeling bad, feeling pain. And the result of lifelong objectification is dissociation. For example, Emily writes in her book that she dissociates so much from her body that when she's having sex with her own husband, she has to fuck in front of a mirror so she can watch herself and visually attempt to reconnect with her body and in her mind says to herself, I'm having sex.

6:14My body is having sex. Now to everyone that hasn't read the book or everyone that just likes to skim through Twitter and not actually read. Emily in this book is just shedding light on her journey and her experience and isn't asking for anything. And she also isn't taking any like huge controversial stance. She's just talking about her experience. Emily and I, we only had an hour together and I was really impressed. There's a lot in this interview that she sheds even more light on in the book and it's it's pretty remarkable daddy gang let's just get into it here is emily radikowski

7:08emily radikowski welcome to call her daddy thank you so much i'm so happy to be here i'm so happy you're here. Congrats on the huge deal. That's like insane and so awesome. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a, it's been a wild ride. I'm sure. But like how cool you definitely won. Pretty cool. Just like showed them all is how I feel. Most importantly, congratulations on having a baby this year. Thank you. You have two babies. You have your book and then you have your baby. Yes. I had two babies. What is the best thing about being mother and what is the hardest thing? Oh love that you have for them is indescribable.

7:44Like I know everyone says that I truly don't have words. I've tried, like it doesn't work. They are just this like chunk that you made in your body. Like it's insane. Um, and he has personality now. Like he really like respond, like all that stuff and it's just getting better and better. The worst thing, I mean, I just, nobody told me that they feed every two to three hours when they come home from the hospital, really like two every hour and a half. And if you're breastfeeding, that means you're in demand and you don't know how much they're getting. And they're like, you know, it's like a creature when it comes.

8:16I mean, he was really cute when he was born, but still, you know, and you're trying to keep him alive with your boobs and you're not getting no, no, no sleep. So it's hard to picture it though, until you do it. Honestly, I had so many friends who talked to me about it and I still didn't get it. So now I say the two to three hours thing. So does my husband will be like every two to three hours they feed. Like you're going to come home and that's through the night. And that's for months, like just get ready you know because like somehow it didn't get through to us so that's like your life yeah it is but it's also like you're on cloud nine and right hopefully you're not trying to write a book or something like because that would be so crazy to do that at the same time how long did it take you to write the book I've been working on it for three and a half year three and a half years I sold it around this time last year and it was already like 50 ,000 words so it was really more of the editing and stuff I was doing post baby and the last essay I wrote after and stuff.

9:08So wow. Yeah. Okay. We're going all the way back. Raised in SoCal. Yes. Okay. And only child. Yes. My mom is an only child, but I always will hear her be like, you know, I basically had to become an adult quickly because you're just surrounded by adults all the time. Yeah. What was your experience being raised as an only child? Definitely. That is true. It's interesting. my husband's also an only child. I know a lot of only children because I think we have like a weird understanding about just like baseline stuff in our experience. My parents were definitely, I was just kind of included as an adult in the family.

9:46Like we were more of a unit than a family dynamic of parents and kid. I remember like having a lot of imaginary, you know, friends, but also just being like sitting at the dinner table and trying to have fun with adults and like make sure that they like me. So you just kind of get this, I don't know. Yeah. You grow up quicker. And I also remember like, I really, like, I definitely had a lot of friends growing up and stuff, but I remember coming into middle school and it felt like I was a little bit behind everyone else. Like I, I just think that I had spent so much time with my parents that it wasn't like, I didn't have the same sort of like cool around people my age, but I feel like it ended up being a good thing in the long run, but it definitely at points I felt like awkward.

10:28I was like, I feel more comfortable talking to adults than I do my peers you know do you think that you are gonna have one child no I don't think so I definitely want more than one for that reason that's interesting yeah I didn't realize because your husband also is the only child that's interesting that you guys like no yeah I mean listen it's having more than one child in New York City is like kind of psycho yeah like it's crazy I also have a 90 pound dog like what am I doing also when you get older and you're you have to start taking care of your parents it's so nice to have somebody else to lean on and like that's another reason not just childhood but also adulthood my mom just went we had gone through that with like her mother before she passed and it was like my mom was the only one yes okay so you get it and it's like I felt so awful for her watching her I'm like because with my siblings I'd be like my brother take her my sister take her at times how big is your family I have two older siblings okay oh nice yeah the youngest girl that's so nice but I I feel like I felt that for my mom watching that so I feel for you yeah in your book when you talk about your mom getting sick I was like damn it's yeah just it's just you also in high school your father was a teacher yeah at fucking high school can't even imagine I know what was that like so I like begged my parents I did not want to go to his school I remember the first day of high school like my eyes were super swollen because I like was I had I was leaving all my friends, like everybody I had known in middle school and elementary school went to one high school, which was kind of, it was, they're both in the same district, but one was like the like big football team cheerleader.

12:03And then the one my dad taught out was a little bit further and was, there was like a skate team and a surf team, no football team. Like everyone listened to like David Bowie and like Biggie and like smoked pot instead of like drink handles. I mean, everything was happening, but you know what I mean? It was just a little bit more like indie. Yeah. And I was terrified. And my dad had taught there for so long. So he had like this big reputation. Everybody called him Rada, which is how I got the nickname Emrada. And yeah, I was so scared. But he was pretty cool about giving me some space. It was actually the other teachers who were terrible.

12:40They'd see him at lunch and be like, Emily was 15 minutes late to class today. And you know, then he would be like, should I say something to her? should I whatever did you ever get in trouble in high school like what was your biggest punishment I never got caught in high school yeah I mean I wasn't like a terrible kid but I definitely like did a lot of like broke the rules skip class whatever um but yeah I had a lot of like experiences where I was very close to getting in trouble and didn't got it okay that's and like bless up honestly thank you honestly I mean I don't know some part of me is like maybe it would have been better.

13:12I would have been safer if I had gotten caught, but yeah, it is what it is. You learn a lot. Your mom is stunning. How do you think her experience as a beautiful woman in the world impacted you? Mother-daughter relationships are just this sort of really sensitive, crazy thing. And I feel like it's something you talk about with your closest friends and like you hope that they never repeat and they don't talk about, you know, the more complicated aspects because you also adore your mom like I don't care who you are even if your mom was a terrible person there's a part of you that's your mom um and becoming a mom like I understand where that comes from it's physical I was really interested in like the lessons that our moms teach us as women about the way we look so my mom grew up in a family that was very like you should never say thank you when you're told that you're beautiful you didn't do anything to deserve it there was like kind of a shame around being attractive.

14:08And the whole thing was like, you need to work extra hard to kind of like prove yourself. I had puberty pretty young and got boobs. Like before I even knew what sex was, I had boobs and basically looked like a woman, but was totally not. And of course, I'm sure you had the same experience where you're going to middle school and, you know, middle school teachers are snapping your bra strap and just being, you know, dress code, like I'd have to put on the, because like an inch of my midriff was showing. And she was very anti that. She was like, fuck those people like you should never feel ashamed but in some ways also I think she felt like beauty was a way for me to be powerful because I think she had experienced so much shaming it felt like a way for her to to make me feel special and to protect me I had an ex-boyfriend and his mom said to me one time like very casually she only had her son and she was like yeah if I had had a girl I would have talked to her about weight and like I would have made sure she stayed thin.

15:03And I was like, outraged. You know, my instant feeling was like, first of all, your son's not even in that good of shape, like screw you, you know? And then I started thinking about it and I was like, oh, that's because she thinks that's like loving her daughter because she knows that if her daughter is considered attractive in the world, she might have a better life. So I think there was a little bit of that. I think that's really interesting when you talk about it with your mom. Cause like having this put on you, then this overemphasis on your looks, I'm interested to know like how did that affect yourself worth at a young age like did you you were clearly obviously hyper focused then on your looks because your mother I mean I was and I wasn't I just um I think there was also a part of me that was like like I don't want that you know and I think that I kind of write about that in the book too like there was a weird part of me pushed back.

15:55But also had this like sense of pride about it. I guess the best way to describe it is that, you know, especially being an only child, it really made me feel special and it made me feel very loved to be like, you know, in a public high school and be modeling and people be like, oh, did you see Amrata's whatever? And I'd be like, I'm cool, you know? Totally. And then also like in high school, this sort of at the same time, it wasn't just about how my parents sort of, you know, were like hyped that I was getting into this world that was sort of glamorous. It was also that I had money in a way that like none of my friends did.

16:31Everybody was like working at sandwich shops or like American Apparel making minimum wage. And I'd go to LA and shoot like a lookbook once a month and get what they were making in a month. And it was amazing, you know, so I started to really love that too. When was the first time that you became aware that other people treated you differently because of your looks? I remember like not the way I looked, but the sexiness thing. Like that felt way more like a thing. Because I feel like you don't really know why people are treating you a certain way when you're a really young kid. But people started to name it once I like had boobs because they were scared for me or feeling uncomfortable, you know.

17:12So I have this really visceral memory of I was doing theater and I was like 12 and I had makeup on because I'd been on stage and we went to dinner my cousin and my mom my cousin had like a glass of wine and started crying like freaking out and was like I see the way men look at her and it's like not safe and da da da and you know I was I was embarrassed because I didn't understand that she was like trying to protect me right that memory I was probably in sixth grade and that feels like really like it happened yesterday it gives me I feel stressed even thinking about it right now I felt stressed reading the book when I remember the scene where you're like you're not the scene your life when you're you have I love that it reads as a scene though that I feel like that's a compliment I felt like I was like reading a movie like it's you're in a tank top and I think it was like your cousin left the room or something and like ran back in because it was you were left alone with the guy and she realized like oh fuck even though you're so young yeah don't feel comfortable leaving Emily in a room with men at this age which is fucking crazy yeah I guess the point is that it was like really mixed signals because obviously at school it was cool for like the boys to think that you were hot you know like that was great like that was amazing that's what you wanted and like you made more friends like girls were nicer to you or maybe meaner too but like it just gave you a certain kind of status and then in other ways it was deeply shameful and embarrassing and straight up scary you know so yeah I remember in the book you were underage at your casting and the adult in charge looked at your photos and said now this is the look this is how we know this girl gets fucked we always know which girls are having sex by their pictures how did you feel when people were making those comments about i mean that i was a little bit older i was probably 16 and i mean it was the same thing right like i was like oh wow like they're pointing out a picture because i guess like it's a good thing and like I can be sexy but then also felt like I'm so called out and humiliated and embarrassed and like dude 16 yeah someone's saying that to you yeah of course now no listen now in like retrospect but at the time I was like like are we is this cool like is this you know I just didn't know what to make of it that moment I wanted to like give you a hug in a virtual way because I'm like I agree I wouldn't have known what the fuck yeah because you're not able to decipher like like you said is this a good thing yeah or is this so wildly inappropriate so wildly inappropriate and I'm here to do a job and you're 16 also yeah and I was I was with one of my girlfriends too who was also modeling so it felt like this really weird like moment of like oh like is she better than me like they didn't say that about her is she better than me or am I better than her because I have this fuckable look like I mean it was weird I didn't even like think about that experience a lot of things in the book were not things that I like talked about until I was writing and I was like oh yeah I remember that happened you know it's strange that's what I was gonna ask you of like did you talk to anyone about these things no not really I mean I had some really good girlfriends in high school who like they helped a lot yeah but I was too embarrassed and also like honestly excited because I thought I'm modeling like I'm at this big agency it felt like something maybe was wrong with me or something if you know what I mean yeah like I could see people being like okay Emily like I'm going through my awkward face right like yeah it's hard so many people look at you hot chick perfect life perfect Instagram perfect body and with this book I truly believe you're blowing that shit up good you you are it's an amazing book thank you I couldn't put it down I finished it in two days oh my god thank you it's really really nice wow Thank you.

21:01Chapter one is titled Blurred Lines. Well, now it's chapter two. You changed it? Yes, I did. Oh my God. Yeah. Wait, can you tell me why you decided to do that? Well, because Blurred Lines, what we're about to talk about is like something that I didn't want to write about at all. I feel like I've spent my entire career trying not to be the girl from that video. So to just open up that can of worms and be like, let's talk about it, went against like every instinct that I had. I'm still going against every instinct. Like I even talking about it right now, I'm like, OK, yeah, no, I'm glad we're bringing it up.

21:38You know what I mean? Because the truth is the reason that I wrote about it is because it was something that I had just completely put into a certain category and box and thought about and talked about in one way and didn't even fully remember the experience because I just was like, no, no, no, it's this, it's that, it's whatever. and once I started to kind of be like wait maybe things have been actually a little more complicated than I've always wanted to believe they were that's when I remembered this situation and experience and then was like wow that was why I initially had it first in the book and then like final last minute like we're talking day it was supposed to go to the printers I just had this thought of like somebody walking into a bookstore and seeing my name and being like okay my body all right this girl I know who she is and then they open the first chapter and they see blurred lines they're just gonna be like of course okay and it's the book isn't that it's not a celebrity memoir it's a bunch of essays about a lot of different ideas and I just wanted to give myself that shot with that person so it's so fucking powerful that you wrote about it oh like I well hopefully people will still like it even though it's second in the book now but listen when I read it because guys I got a advanced copy yes you did um but it's amazing and it's powerful and it's it's your story Emily you found the strength to also like kind of badass come out with the story on your fucking terms and in your book like good for you yeah so chapter two yes chapter two is titled blurred lines yeah you reveal that Robin Thicke assaulted you on the set of that music video take me through that day so I mean I think that you know one of the things that a lot of people don't know about the video is that it was directed by a woman and part of the reason that I did the job was if it didn't pay that much really in general but it paid initially it paid about like a half of what I ended up getting which was just not that much so I got this offer for this music video and I was like okay well the money's not good enough and I'd have to be naked it in a music video and like I don't even know who Robin Thicke is and you know what I mean I didn't know who he was I thought Pharrell obsessed with Pharrell when I was in middle school thought he was like a god yeah um but you know it was like I don't know who this is I don't know where it's gonna go whatever anyway they came up on the money a little bit and this director was really cool she's still somebody that I know and like I think she's awesome she said to me like it's gonna be all these women so I got to set and it had this really different vibe than a lot of the jobs I was doing at that time.

24:18Usually people kind of just were like, sit over there, kind of shut up, put on what we say, like, don't like complain about the hair and makeup. Like everything is just like, you're a mannequin, which is what I write in the book, truly just being used as a body and a face. And it wasn't like that. There were like girls who were a little bit older than me being like, Oh my God, like you look so cute. Like, do you like your outfit? And you know what I mean? That's why I think I like dance so funny and stuff. When you're like relaxed with your girlfriends and you're dancing around and you just feel completely comfortable.

24:48So that was the majority of the shoot. And that's why when a lot of people would say to me like, oh, this video is misogynistic. Why did you decide to do it? Aren't you kind of embarrassed? Basically, I was like, get off my back. Fuck off. Like it was my choice. And I did feel powerful in that moment. And like, guess what? Now I'm famous. So and like making more money than I definitely did then. So how can you say that I'm not empowered, quote unquote, you know what I mean? During the day, kind of later in the afternoon, the part that I kind of, I guess, I don't want to say I forgot. I would say that I just completely put it out of my mind because that also makes it sound like it was like a choice.

25:25Like I didn't, it wasn't a choice. I wasn't like, you're just not going to remember that part. You know what I mean? It's how people dissociate. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I feel like people who have way more insane things happen to them. That's a word that I would think of with that, but yes, it probably is some type of that and yeah actually one day I was just laying in bed and went to Robin Thicke's Instagram because I think his girlfriend had gotten pregnant or something like he was on e-news and I was blocked and I was like why am I blocked and sat there for a second was like did I say something like in the press and then I was like oh and I remembered this moment when he was kind of drunk and he was in a little bit of a like not great mood and we were shooting by ourselves and he put his hands on my breasts really quickly and then I think I just like moved away and Diane stopped the music and there was this sort of like weird moment and then we kept shooting the news actually leaked this weekend um and it wasn't my choice which was annoying for me because like the whole reason I wrote this book was to tell my story and be in control of the narrative but I'm also like that's okay and like hopefully people will read the essay and like get a sense of what actually I'm trying to say about it because the fact that I didn't remember that and didn't let myself think about that and was almost like defiant like was literally like fuck you I am a feminist and I'm naked and whatever and yeah I couldn't have complained in that moment I was 21 I was like an actual nobody like a person on a mall on a wall in a modeling agency that you could pick like this girl who's maybe a little bit taller this girl who has like prettier eyes or you know what I mean like it's a true true meat market industry you know yeah so I didn't complain and I just went home and I like never told anyone about it really except I do remember I told the director like oh he blocked me and she was like why would he do that and I did say like well I remember what happened on set that was like a few years later and did she like be like yeah I know I think she didn't respond, but she did when this leaked.

27:31She like talked about it and had a memory and yeah. Have you looked at any of like the feedback yet that's come from the news or anything? A little bit. And some of it is so terrible. I have to be honest. Dude, I was on Twitter last night before this looking and I was like, people are disgusting. I was like, first of all, there is no timeline of when someone should come out with something that happened to them. It doesn't negate what happened, whether it's a year, the day of, 10 years later. I mean, also for me, like the reason that I didn't just like be like press release, everyone, like testing one, two, three.

28:12Like I wanted it to be in my own words and like in a 5 ,000 word essay that really explains like all the aspects of that day, the parts that were good, the parts that were bad and like what this meant to me and why it was so defining to me and like sort of a huge part of like the evolution of my politics and beliefs. You know, I don't believe in canceling someone. I don't. I'm sure that, you know, Robin Thicke has a lot of wonderful things about him. I don't believe in good guys and bad guys. I think that like our world needs to understand that like we live in a culture that allows for men to feel like they can behave a certain way.

28:48It doesn't mean that like just because this person did this one thing or didn't do that one thing, they're good or bad. It's been frustrating, but I'm also like it's OK because the book will be out there very soon.

29:08I really respect you being as open as you were and I think it's really amazing how detailed you got because it shows like you weren't going in there for shock value like this is something that fucking happened to you yeah you haven't talked about it was there ever a point before the book that you were considering telling the story? Absolutely not. And I honestly don't think, I mean, maybe if I hadn't published the book, I would have just published that essay. Okay. I honestly don't even think so though, because that was one of, that essay took the longest in the whole book to write. And like, it's kind of more of one of the more simple ones in a lot of ways.

29:42I knew that the reaction that I've seen this weekend was coming. Like I know people, I knew that people were going to be like, she was naked, like in a music video, why she waited so long did it all the same things actually I had a male journalist be like so like this is gonna come out and what do you think the consequences will be and I was like for me or for him and he was like for him and I was like uh-huh okay definitely there's consequences for me like people think that have all kinds of assumptions about me because this news is out I also had somebody be like last night be like you are so brave thank you for coming forward and I was like that's not also not it right right like that's not it telling my story yeah what was your relationship to the song when it came out versus like now so interestingly if I was at a wedding or at a bar and it came on I mean it was also one of those things where everyone in the bar would be like pointing at our big moment like you'll never believe who was at the bar and so that's probably also what ended up happening because I would always be like oh no and I would go to the bathroom or whatever.

30:47I don't know if that's what it was or if there was a little part of me that was like remembering just the experience in some way and feeling something because I definitely did when I would see Robin Thicke's name or, you know, I also had to talk about it all the time. And I was very like, man, I just showed up for work one day and now I'm defending lyrics that I didn't even pay attention to. I was 21 and, you know, whatever. So yeah, that was my relationship with it it kind of evolved into that now I don't I mean like you know what it's catchy like yeah good like good like everybody enjoy it like I don't know what to say you know what I mean no that's I can imagine like every fucking time you're at a bar you're like I'm leaving the minute it plays you're like it because it's like but it's also been who like it's 2013 to me that feels like thousand years ago so yeah have you heard from Robin Thicke since that photo shoot I actually haven't.

31:39Okay. Okay. It seems like with this book, chapter after chapter, you're bravely discussing your experience dealing with men treating you like an object. Do you feel like you've been combating that your whole life? I do. And you know why I feel like I've been combating it my whole life is because it also had its serious advantages. Being treated like an object got me my career. it's probably why a lot of people are going to read my book like that's the I guess what I want to people for people to take away like I am not saying to any young girl don't capitalize or like work it like commodify your image commodify your body it's definitely one way to succeed in a certain way in this world it also means all these other things that I'm writing about like that's the truth it's complicated it's very complicated I think it was like Charlize Theron was like people are insane if they say that looks don't matter like let's all just be real let's just put it on the table and so especially for women yes like hello flat out I mean I just I like that girls now who are like a little bit younger than me are just very open about that what that was not true for when I when I was like on you know trying to build a career people be like don't post that on Instagram and I was like yeah but like this is how I'm like now making money and literally people are kind of like rolling their eyes and also judging me for it and I feel like that's changed a little bit which is really great so I'm just like okay let's be clear like that's just that's facts you know yeah how do you define feminism that's a loaded oh my god I know we could be here all day yeah I used to feel like okay let me tell you like I would tell you it was about choice I would tell you about you know use the word empowerment which like if I have to hear that one more time I might lose my mind like yeah I mean it's listen it's real I use it in the book but also um I can talk about like what I know feminism isn't like which is like I mean the power dynamics that exist in our culture and our world are often unspoken but they're evident in very big and small ways like it's evident in the you know you can go on a drink for a drink with a guy and it shows up in little ways and like maybe you can't put your figure on it but like there's something about their attitude and like how little they have at stake that like you know what that is do you know what I mean they have a little bit more power they don't they could take or leave this interaction in a different way my career was based off being attractive to men which you know I've done pretty good you know what I mean like it's not bad but that also I think like points to some power structures that are in place you know you wrote about how you've capitalized on your looks in this patriarchy that we live in I have too like we just said but you've written about the internal struggle that you've had in managing the emotional and your mental health around like I know this is helping my career but also like at times feeling weird inside about it and maybe guilty like for someone who's not you or hasn't experienced this how do you describe that battle within yourself?

34:53My best friend is single right now. I don't know if this might be totally wrong and I could be like going in the wrong direction, but you know, she's been single through COVID and she's kind of like, Gwen's still going to get her groove back, you know? And she's like, I don't know. There's just like, I go on these dates and I have drinks and I just don't feel like playing into the bullshit at all. She's like, I just am kind of like, here I am. did you watch White Lotus yes um when Jennifer Coolidge is like here's the core of the onion it kind of was that vibe you know because she was just like I don't want to have to like seem like I don't care like I don't have to play any of those games so it's not totally the same but it's a little bit like that except this is like when I'm playing those games and you know taking the check from the guy that's a little bit of a creep but like also could you know he has a director friend who could you know this was most of my 20s was like hoping that someone was gonna like like me enough to tell their friends that I'm great and then I'll get this part in this movie and blah blah blah and not just great but like flirty and like cool and smart but like not too smart that she would like come after you or you know what I mean I yeah I used to do that a lot and it just made me feel really bad in the long run and I'm 30 and I just feel like that is left been left behind in my 20s what do you say to people I guess who don't understand because I feel like this is like what you've lived is like that you can be sexy and you can be like a raging feminist like those two can live together in one yeah well I write about this in the book like I wish that I didn't feel I'm sure you have this too like you're you know done this amazing deal you have your podcast like and you still have a lot you want to prove to people I feel that way all the time I'm like I want people to take me seriously as like a writer and a thinker and there's just some people who are just never going to do that and I've kind of I guess accepted that but also totally not because I wrote this damn book and published it and like listen the reason I did that was because I have something to prove I want people to understand that I'm not just a body right yeah I've had that so in in my career like I built this initial brand off of knowing what was gonna sell yeah now at times looking back like there was a lot of feminist roots within call her daddy at the beginning because it was like I know how to get a guy like if you want the answer I'll literally give it to you and it may not be coming off like I'm playing the game because I'm recognizing the world that we live in yeah and I and some may say like well then you're like appealing to the male gaze but it's like But also like how even not appealing to the male gaze is reacting to the male gaze.

37:38So like, yes, it's we're all playing the game. I have friends who like, you know, wear like men's clothes and are like super like boyish and only hang out with dudes and like are kind of like, you know, that's their thing. They're also playing the game. They're just taking it a different angle. I would love to hear your opinion. Have you seen the fucking thing about like pick me girls on TikTok? OK. Oh, yes, I have. Yes, I have. Yes, yes. And like, I guess pick me girls. I'm sort of trying to hone in on the definition but it's like apparently it's like women that do certain things maybe by putting other women down to like appeal to men like oh I never wear makeup yes I've seen them yes but I'm also like by women pointing out women and they're labeling them as pick me girls now we're just pitting women against women again okay so I always feel like this is what it comes down to because of course like that is so annoying we all know those girls and we're like okay you're you know I just will say to people sometimes like I'll say to a friend or whatever like she's just not a girl's girl and that's exactly what I'm referencing it's when you just know that they like actually want to like skewer your head off and like hope you die and you're like okay well cool like fun hanging out you know what I mean so okay I get why the instinct is to be like that's what this is I even remember the first one I saw I was like damn so real like I know that girl for sure that being said like of course girls do that they want the dude they want to feel special like it's we all kind of do some kind of version of that whether or not it's that obvious or if it's the complete opposite of that which like I don't give a fuck whatever right so why are we always asking women to adjust instead of like saying okay this is the system we work in this is the the framework that we're in I mean my relationship to other women is so complicated I catch myself all the time like comparing myself and it's whack but like that's what we've been trained to do instead of being like okay what what's going on here like why why are we being this way you know I feel a sense of obligation with my platform to be like okay let's just call it as real as we can like the girl that then is on TikTok making the video about another girl being a pick me girl you're yes you may think you're calling her out for like appealing to the male gaze but you're also just calling out a woman that's doing nothing to you and you're like name calling and it's like instead she's just trying to like do her best in the system so why are you trying to bring her down is that gonna fix anything right instead of shaming them more yeah let's find a way to almost like bring them cut cut through that yeah and bring everybody in yes I did an episode two weeks ago where I admitted to getting caught photoshopping a picture on my Instagram.

40:19I saw that was brave. Have you ever photoshopped a photo of your on your Instagram? I definitely have photoshopped but like duh. Right exactly that's why I was like in my episode I'm like everyone knows it's happening but I remember the first time somebody like showed me Facetune I was it was a group pic and I was like oh I hate it like my leg looks big and someone was like oh let me show you like this will change your life whatever I have stopped doing it though yeah yeah I mean listen I it's hard because it's like also people get plastic surgery like I'm a little bit right I don't know if I blame people for photoshopping like also because it's the same reason that you get like okay you can get a boob job which is real in real life or you just make your boobs bigger on like on facetune or whatever like I don't know I yeah I think it's a really confusing topic because I think we've all agreed like Instagram isn't real like it's it's a curated version of a perfect life that we're creating so it's like whatever yeah so it's like what's the difference between using the dog fucking filter the ears or like I mean also like magazines have been editing photos forever so yeah I mean I just don't know like I don't know how I feel I personally don't feel right about it yeah um it feels like a lie and I'm just like I don't want to lie you know yes it's so exhausting but also I make sure to find good light when I take a selfie do you know what I mean so is that a lie you know what it's just a slippery slope we all need to make a lesson from you how the fuck to get a perfect selfie I completely was relating to your story in the book where you were like I'm on fucking vacation with my man oh yeah and I am scrolling I post a photo and I can't stop looking like how many likes like it's addicting yeah I recently turned off my likes and my comments is that something you would ever do with your career like can you even do that yeah I mean I've thought about I think I've turned there were a couple pictures like when I first had my son and I was at home and I was I had decided to share them with the world and I just was like you know what we're not going to do we're not going to let people like have opinions that I can then easily check like I'm not doing that yeah so I think it's like a case-to-case situation but does it feel better to have them off I feel liberated I literally feel like a different human because I find myself spending way less time like I've been posting more too I post it interesting and I like bye bye like I can't tell you how powerful it's felt being like damn no one can comment on this photo I go and like it once I post it because why wouldn't you like your own photo right I love And then I'm done.

42:56Yeah, yeah. And it's like, I don't, I don't know. I think there's just a lot of negativity and I love all the hype at times. Yeah. But there is something to be said about like, don't allow your, like your self-worth to literally be predicated on the amount of comments and likes you get. It's intoxicating. Of course. And then it's more complicated when it's tied to your actual livelihood, you know? If you're not making money off of Instagram, like listen to me, turn that shit off. Like girls were DMing me after that episode being like, I only got 200 likes. And so I delete it. And I'm like, no, you liked the photo.

43:32Keep it the fuck up. Yeah, I know. But I mean, a lot of the times people literally post something to test whether or not it's a good picture of them. I mean, I feel like that's something I do. I'm like, I think I looked good. Like, does everyone agree? The fact that also you're saying that, I think there are a lot of people listening that would be like, I feel like she would never feel that way. Oh my God, I feel that way still. and I'm an adult like you know what I mean like and I'm a professional model

44:08reading the book I was jumping out of my skin reading this chapter about the photo book situation oh yeah and I felt angry for you the lack of control you had over your likeness and image is disgusting that you had to go through this can you lightly describe that situation and and where you are now with it interesting about that essay is it kind of like it's kind of like three different parts and I had written I hadn't written the part about the photo book and the photographer until I was actually on the plane ride back from that vacation I write about that you mentioned which was such a long flight because we were in the Maldives and I couldn't sleep and you know how planes make you feel kind of crazy but you can also sometimes have good ideas oh yeah I just couldn't stop thinking about this experience it was one of the most shameful things I had in my life like I felt so responsible for how things had gone down and how the public had viewed it and how underprotected I had played been myself and like how much I had played into things and whatever and then I wrote that piece and like was like okay well that's never seen the light of the day like I felt like I sounded so young in it and I was I thought the writing was bad whatever and then when I was thinking about all these ideas around ownership and image which like included I've been sued by the paparazzi for posting a picture of me holding like flowers in front of my face like outside of my apartment yeah and I've had like artists make artworks of me that I've then like bought back myself and then my ex-boyfriend tried to like kind of get it back and whatever and then I realized like wow this is totally what happened with this photo book when I was I guess I got I was maybe 19 or 20 I was in New York and I had just kind of come into New York I had I write in the book like I actually just lost some weight from a flu and my agency was like actually like maybe you could work in New York which is so fucked up but whatever really oh my god and like figured out like okay it's definitely because I'm skinnier so I'm gonna try to make that a priority now you do a lot of things called test shoots which are basically just like important or good photographers build your book whatever so this photographer was someone who it was for like a magazine and they were like take a bus out to Catskills which again now I would like if I had a daughter I'd be like you're not taking a bus anywhere to like a strange man's home but at that time I think models are taught and I think all women are taught this on some level like it's impolite to say no like you know you the whole thing with modeling is that you trust your agent they're in charge of your career and that they are sort of the guiding force and if you push back they're like you don't know anything about this and like why are you being difficult.