Emmy Rossum: Shameless, Motherhood & Knowing Your Worth

28:21I mean, and just like now knowing, I mean, I was such a fan of the show and I still am, like the environment that you were able to create with your character, like it felt so immersive. Like when you're watching the show, I'm literally a part of this family. Like I can't stop watching. and you all did such a good job bringing it to life, playing this character for almost a decade. Yeah. Did you discover anything unexpected about yourself in the process? I had always wanted a big family. That was so emotional for me to like walk in and firstly, make a pilot, you never know if it's gonna go. But before we made the pilot, they gave us a week in the house, in the space, which was built on a stage in the Warner Brothers lot.

29:09And in the kitchen, the director, Mark Milod, put a bunch of cold cuts and bread. And at that time, the fridge still smelled fine after years and years of the fridge getting unplugged and replugged. And the fridge smelled so bad by the end. And they would put GoPros in the fridge. And we would have to open the fridge, you know, because there's a little camera inside. And we would get something. And you would have to plan when you would take your breath. It was like a joke we all played. Because like an old fridge, just like there's something wrong with it. It was like something had died in that fridge.

29:42I can smell it and I'm not even there. It was so bad. And like, you'd be like, okay, so as I'm coming around the kitchen island, I'm going to take my breath here and I'm in, I'm getting a breath. Okay, I'm closing it. I feel like it was crazy. But the first week that we were in that house, it was magic. It was, we were all, and that's kind of what it's like being on a show. It's like summer camp or Love Island. You're all in with less glam. You are all in the same place. You are caring about the same thing. You are talking about the same thing. You are eating your meals together. I was, so those cold cuts were in there so I could prepare the meals for the family for our week of rehearsals.

30:26The fridge smells still smelled great. So it was fine. Okay. But it was really this amazing time where we were sharing and getting to know each other. And there was rigor on the set too. We didn't have a huge budget. So we would shoot up to eight or 10 pages a day sometimes. When we went to Chicago, there were no sides on set ever. No sides. All actors were – no sides for crew either. Can you explain what that means for people? So when you get to set ordinarily, people shrink down the script to this kind of like pocket-sized version. And you just have the pages that you're going to shoot that day.

31:00So if actors haven't learned their lines, which some choose not to, they can look at them or people can refer to them. So everyone's got a little like mini Bible of what you're making today. John Wells doesn't believe in that. He believes everyone should show up and be ready to do the job. so he doesn't make those available. They're literally not produced. So if you want sides on set, you gotta lug your whole script around. So that meant that everyone showed up completely ready to work at all times. There were no last looks. Last looks is when your hair and makeup team come in when they say the cameras are ready to roll and they touch you up.

31:39Zero. We didn't have sides. We didn't have last looks. It was the best training camp for 10 years of show up on time, be ready. This is my home. This is home for me. I don't need touch-ups. I don't want touch-ups. I want to make, I want to make, let's make some feelings. Right. This is like back to what you were saying about the opera. You're like, this is it. And I know that there has been reports of like 20 hour production days and the set could be challenging at times. Like how do you look back on that period when you like hear those things? Like do you stay positive? I mean, I love that show and our experience so much.

32:2220-hour production days are, they happen. And when we were in Chicago, we would shoot two units at once. We would, so you would be shooting over here. You would change sometimes like in a restroom at a gas station or sometimes like you would do a quickie change like behind a dive coat on the L train. You would go to the next location. But we were so enmeshed with each other. We were so in each other's lives. We spent 10 to 16 to 20 hours a day, five days a week, five months a year for nine years together. so it's impossible not to be so close um did you ever feel like your work ethic was mislabeled in the press or in those moments where you were showing up and doing your job that wasn't my experience i felt very very nurtured and shepherded by john wells who encouraged me to direct on the show, which I got to do many times.

33:35My cast also was very championing of me to do that. I certainly come to the set to work. And I bring my all. And I think like many women, we care deeply and we prepare deeply and we love what we do. But I mean, I love that job so much and I felt like I was born on that job. That's where I learned to direct. John also was so shepherding of my writing as well, giving notes on the first script that I had written, hiring me to direct on another one of his shows. And those are all my buds. We're close. I'm seeing one of them tonight on set. So I'm really grateful for that time and it has a just nothing but happiness in my heart for it okay we're gonna close out shameless conversation with some rapid fire okay if you had to pick which of fiona's exes would she end up with jimmy steve they just they're just so good together i mean yeah he's he's not always honest at all but i just love them together jimmy steve they're they're even in the honesty lies the problem.

34:55Yeah. We thought his name was one thing. Loved him. It's another thing. He was cast before I was too. Yeah. Interesting. And we had made a movie together called Dragon Ball Evolution a couple years before. So I already knew him. And the second that I knew he was cast, I couldn't wait to work with him again. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Okay. Which Gallagher sibling were you the closest to off camera? Lip. Okay. Let's talk about good old Jeremy. Yeah. Who do you think was more stubborn character wise, Fiona or Lip? Lip. But I'm team Fiona. You're like, obviously. Yeah. He was the problem. Okay. What is your one of one of your favorite memories with Jeremy Allen White on set?

35:35Anytime we had a scene that was just us where we could really dig in either a quiet scene or scenes where we went at each other. He's so he has so much soul and he brings so much intensity and so much truth and honesty. That's kind of the beautiful thing about playing characters for, I mean, I made 110 episodes of the show. They made more than that than I did. And after a certain point, the writers start to write little bits of you in there. And they start to understand the symbiosis of how you guys work together. and I'm so happy for him and proud of him and he's such an incredible human being and incredible actor and I just feel lucky that we got to share all those scenes together.

36:31No, I know. I was thinking about that, like how crazy to see that success that he's having and have been probably feeling like he's like a brother to you on this set and then to see obviously like you both having so much success that must be so gratifying. It's amazing. It's amazing. Okay. What is your favorite off-camera memory that you have with the cast? In Chicago, we had this massive, massive snowstorm and we got shut down for one day. We would go to Chicago to shoot twice a season and we all stayed in the same hotel and we would be in and out of each other's rooms and we ate all meals together and we got this piece of cardboard to like be a makeshift sled and Justin Chatwin saw a truck and got on the piece of cardboard and like rode it down the road.

37:32He's such a he's such a daredevil and I have this video of us while watching him do it being like don't do it but also do it oh and that was kind of like we had a lot of kind of mischievous play and that truck craziness and it was just incredibly fun love it what fiona decision will you go down defending god i mean i think the worst time she ever fucked up was when she left the cocaine around that I think Robbie had given her and Liam got into it and he ended up hospitalized for it and I think that that was the worst I ever saw her and certainly when I read it I was terrified of the scene because of how I I cared about Fiona even though it made for really good drama.

38:29Oh, my God. Not you like reading that scene. You're like, I'm like, oh, it's really good drama. But like, oh, God, I got to do this now. OK, off the top of your head, most emotional scene to film. Certainly in the prison, the strip search scene was really very challenging. It's so crazy because that show was so funny in moments. Yeah. Like my parents are rewatching it and they're like, it's dark. What's an iconic line of dialogue from the show that you still remember? I don't think it was even in the show, but we had this off-camera joke of, look what you could have had, Craig Heisner. That was like, maybe Shinola's line, but maybe not.

39:08And it was about Taylor Kinney, who played this guy, Craig Heisner, that Fiona was into in high school. And he ends up married, but then she ends up sleeping with him, even though he's married. I like that line. So I think, I don't know if that was in there, but that's what we used to say a lot.

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40:50The ones popping up in every Get Ready With Me. Think summery fragrances like Kayali Eden Plush Pair 23 Eau de Parfum, Next Level Makeup, the skincare that keeps you glowing like it's your full-time job. Shop the newest, hottest beauty only at Sephora. Okay. I want to talk about a huge accomplishment of yours, your fight for pay equity on Shameless. How did you first decide to even take that on? Well, when I started the show, it made a lot of sense that Macy made a lot more money than me. He was coming in much older, much more accomplished, tons more credits, and number one on the call sheet. And then by season three, they approached us.

41:31We had a six contract approached us to add another year. And I think my lawyers felt at that time that we had the receipts. Like we could see the way the storylines were shaping. We knew about fan engagement. And we felt that it made sense to ask for that. We didn't get it. And that's fine. we thought you know we tried we didn't get it um and then in season five or six they came and they asked for more more years so I guess at six we extended to seven and then maybe in seven they came and they asked for eight nine that's right and by that point I had been directing a lot on the show and it very much felt like a two-hander and we said let's go for it again um it was kind of shut down pretty fast and we kind of that kind of lingered for a while and then I wasn't sure if we were going to get it.

42:50It's always scary asking for what you think you're worth to say, I think this is what I'm worth. You have to take up space in the room and it's their job to make the show for as little as possible to make the most profit. But that's any business runs that way. So Kai can understand it from the other perspective too.

43:20And I didn't know if they were going to come over to our side and do it or not. And we were getting kind of close to filming the next season.

43:33And I was one day sitting, I was like on a writer's retreat. and I was procrastinating and I opened up Twitter and it was a headline that we were in like a stalemate. And I was shook. Because you had intended for this whole thing to stay private. Yeah, it's a private business negotiation and I never imagined it would become public. Not just for the public, but also for the rest of the cast and the crew. Right, because the cast wasn't aware, obviously. Everyone was doing their own negotiation. And so I certainly didn't want that. How did you manage that once it broke on Twitter? Like, did you reach out to cast?

44:25Did they reach out to you? Like, because it's a little awkward. I didn't say anything. And after the first headline or article, I was kind of like, refresh, refresh, refresh. What's going to happen? And the tide really shifted. people seemed to write other articles like immediately commenting on that kind of being quite surprised that I wasn't already being paid equal and it was resolved within a day I was shocked shocked and quite frankly very very surprised that we actually got it. Wow. So maybe the public commentary actually really helped in your favor because it like woke people up to be like, she's not delusional.

45:27Yeah. Like, guys, what are we doing here? Yeah. I also think something that's so interesting is like when men advocate for their worth, they seem strong and it's kind of, you know, they're competitive and it can even be strategic. And when a woman does it, you can just come off as difficult and ungrateful for what you have been given. As you were navigating all of that before it got released on Twitter, did you feel this pressure to remain likable during the negotiations? Because these are people that you know you have to work with i only desire to remain professional and my focus is never on money it's on

46:18what's fair and what's right and i believe that people should be paid for their labor it was really about being valued equally when I was doing equal work. So for me, it was as simple as that. And I was very, very happy when we got it and very, very happy for what it seemingly did for other women who I, you know, I was like in a health food store in Ontario or somewhere in Canada making a movie a year later and a girl in the health food store said to me, oh, thank you so much for what you did for pay equity. We all asked for a raise here. And I couldn't imagine that it had traveled so far. I think, you know, I think ambition and wanting to be in the driver's seat of your life is not something to be shied away from.

47:17I think likable should not be the focus. It focuses on outward in, not what we know to be true about ourselves and our worth. And I think like, I agree. I think that's the goal, right? I remember when I interviewed Ellen Pompeo and she talked to me about her contract negotiations with Grey's Anatomy. and she was like, girl, no one is going to give it to you. You have to ask for it. That's interesting. We had the same agent. Oh my God. Very interesting. Oh, that's very interesting. I like her very much. I like her very much too. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Because when Ellen said that to me, I was like, oh my God, you're so right.

48:03No one is going to give it to you. You got to go for it. There were also a lot of men on my team who were like, let's get this. we are going to get this we are not going to go back unless we get this so it wasn't me saying i want this there were a lot of times where i felt scared and wanted to cave i was like who cares i love this show i love these people i want to do this and they were like no we're not doing this we're not doing it but because i had caved once before i had caved in the first contract negotiation And yeah, I also just I really appreciate you talking about it because I think it's just such an uncomfortable conversation for so many people because you think about money and you think about men.

48:49And so like we're kind of dancing around a topic that historically just has not been synonymous with women. And so to reacclimate people's brains to like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm doing the same job as this person who happens to be a man. But why are we not making the same amount? Or why? Like, where is the pay equity? It sparks a larger conversation. Like Twitter obviously took it and ran with it. But it does still, there is that fear within you that it's fascinating. It's like, would a man be scared? Because we're kind of trained of like, how far do you want to push it? And I'm so pleased that now this equity conversation is being had.

49:31Right, is a conversation. It is very hard for women to get what they are worth because there is a double standard. Do you have any advice for women who have a hard time advocating for themselves and for their worth? Practice it at home. Practice saying it out loud. Practice saying what you need and what you want in every aspect of your life. sexually. Say what you want with your partner. Say what you want. Eat what you want for dinner. Don't eat the thing you think you should eat for dinner. Do what you really want and treat yourself in the way that you want to be treated. It's also like I wanted to stay in the job.

50:11I loved the job. I wasn't walking away from the job. I loved the job. And I loved the job until it felt like there wasn't enough juice to squeeze out of the lemon. We had made 110 episodes. And by the time I left and they offered us two more years, I had already started my production company. I had set up my first show and I was greenlit and getting ready to make it. So when they came with two more years, I felt beholden to the other job. And I think a common misconception is I left to go have babies. that's could not be further from the truth I left to go make the show I had been developing that our showrunner John Wells had encouraged me to kind of get in the driver's seat of my own career and make my own shows and make things and I left with a lot of grief and sorrow because I would I would miss all those people and I couldn't believe that they were going to go on the journey without me but I was also really excited I felt like I was launching and a new getting ready to start this new chapter of my life also i i i wasn't aware of that rumor i'm like that of course that is so on the nose emmy of what we're talking about we're like of course it was she left the industry to go have babies she moved back to new york obviously yeah obviously um i want to talk about dating yeah i love that topic okay when you look back on your life yes do you notice any patterns or okay you're like where do I begin put me in coach let me write you a dissertation right now patterns or similarities between the guys that you were drawn to in your single and early dating days oh

52:03intensity intensity

52:10intensity I don't know explain well I don't know my first great love was when I was about 18 and he was the older brother of one of my closest friends so I had known him a little bit from when I was younger. And he asked her to ask me if he could ask me out. And I thought it was so cute. And she was kind of like, LOL, like this is going to work out. Like you should totally go out with him. So I did. And he picked me up in a Hummer, which I thought was ridiculous. And I told him immediately, this is a ridiculous vehicle for New York City. In New York? This man owned a Hummer in New York City. And he thought it was a flex, though.

53:00For sure. What color was it? It was like light green or gray or is not amazing. OK. But I gave him shit for it. And he liked that. So I liked that. And then the second date, he oh, he let me drive the car. I had had no license and I had never driven a car. And after dinner, he was like, do you want to drive, you know, yourself home? Do you want to drive the Hummer? Do you want to drive the Hummer? And I was like, I don't have a license. And he's like, I'll teach you how to drive. And I was like, what? This is great. And he was like, you got to accelerate into the turns. And I was like, oh, this guy's intense.

53:40Like, love this. We didn't kiss. And I started dating him when I had shot Day After Tomorrow and Phantom of the Opera, but neither of them had come out yet. So it was this like quiet little chapter in my life before everything kind of exploded. And the second date, I was on the press tour for the day after tomorrow. And... What a good movie. He... Thank you. Oh, such a good movie. So fun to make. Such a good movie. I love Jake Gyllenhaal. And we... We were on the press tour in Paris and he flew to Paris to take me on the second date. On the second date, this man flew to Paris? Mm-hmm. He was 20.

54:20I was 18, I think. And he said, I've got a surprise for you. And he shut down the Palace of Versailles and took me on a date there. I mean. It was epic. He shut down Versailles for you? And it was misty and raining. And you're 18? And we kissed for the first time at the Palace of Versailles. And I was like, this is the rest of my life, right? how is that a second date intense intense very intense and when you look back like what does that intensity in a relationship like really feel like an ignite in you um i don't know i i'm also drawn to people that are very good at what they do his family was art dealers and he was extremely educated in art and history and spoke multiple languages and was like a fisherman and could do a lot of things um and i found that really interesting i mean i i completely agree i think when you can be intellectually stimulated but also watching someone be really good at a craft.

55:39It's extremely attractive. And also like I don't like opacity. I don't want to wonder if you like me or not. I don't want to play games. I don't want to be in a situationship. I don't want to be like, is he going to? No, I will know if I like you and I want to know if you like me. But date two. Yeah. Paris. Versailles. Yes. We're shutting it down. Yes. It leaves a fall-off opportunity because what is date three four five and where do we go from here when the intensity is so intense like obviously you're saying you saw patterns i mean we were together for almost two years and at 18 that's pretty long yeah when did you ever come down from that relationship well i maybe we're together for a year and a half it felt like a long time i I, it was the first time I moved out of my house where I'd grown up with my mom.

56:34And I moved into his house with his family, his whole family. So my friend, they all lived on different floors of the house. So my friend that I had grown up with, she was like on the third floor. We were on the second floor. The parents were on the top floor. It was like all a big family in a house. I love how the people when they were trying to cast you for Shameless, they're like, I don't know if you're really her. everything in your life so far is like I am Fiona Gallagher in a different extent. And then the first time I went away to make a movie when we were together, I was going to be gone for six months just in LA.

57:09And it was the first time we've really been apart and we had been to the Oscars together. We had really kind of enmeshed in each other's lives and my world had really kind of changed and exploded. And he had been along, you know, for the ride on that with me. And I was gonna be away for six months and he worked in New York. And I remember on a call, he said something like, well, do you think you're gonna like continue to do more of this? And I said, hopefully. That's the plan. And that was not the answer he was looking for. And so I was really heartbroken. I remember I cried for hours, for days, days.

57:46I was very heartbroken. Because you're basically like, do I pick my career or the guy I'm in love with? Yeah. And I was like, well, my identity cannot be the cost. My being an artist, which I've been since I'm seven years old, cannot be the cost for being in love. Did you find that you continued to crave intensity again? Sure. Did you slow things down ever? Did you ever have a slow burn, Emmy? No. My husband has a slow burn. We're going to get there. Yeah. We're going to get there. Don't fast forward. Okay. Okay. Hold on. So we're still in the like, you were looking for intensity. You would find yourself enjoying it in the beginning.

58:32Yes. Eventually it would burn out. Yes. 21. Yes. You got married. Oops.

58:42Oops. Oops. Oops. Okay. tell me about what what happened you know that smoke detector that you're supposed to hear in your head well i heard it and i ignored it um After I dated Versailles guy, who we will call him now, Versailles guy, who is now, by the way, happily married, lovely kids, and I'm still friends with his sister. Love that for him. I dated a guy whose favorite pastime was breaking up with me in public. we would like to order the meal and then he would say things to me like um just feel like you're growing so much from knowing me but like i don't know that i'm growing that much from knowing you yeah and like on average how many times do you think he did this to you

59:44two or three emmy two or three and you would just sit there and like i really liked him I really liked him. He was really he was really talented. I was very attracted to his talent, his power on stage. We had done Romeo and Juliet together and he had been Mercutio and Mercutio was just like a real panty dropper. And I was just by yeah, I really liked him. And so there were like two very consecutive rough heartbreaks. How did your mother feel about you getting married at 21? Well, she felt great about it because she didn't know. Yeah. When did she find out? So I started dating Justin and he worked at Interscope Records that I was signed to.

1:00:37And we were dating for maybe a couple months. we were certainly we liked each other and then I got Dragon Ball Evolution and I was gonna go away for six months to Mexico to Durango Mexico the middle of Mexico and make this movie and I remember the day that I was going away to make the movie he said something to me like I don't know if the relationship is gonna survive the distance so like maybe we should break up or get married? No. How could I make this up? I mean, yeah. I literally had a flight that night to Durango, Mexico. And so I think the decisions that we... She's dead. She's dead. I am obsessed with you.

1:01:28You're like, so it had, we had to get married. Yeah. So from either breakup or get married. Yeah. Well, at that moment, I thought to myself, well, I'm just coming off these two really rough heartbreaks. Like, abandonment is my core wound. I don't want that. That hurts me. And I literally thought my 21-year-old, 20? 20-year-old? 21. Maybe? Yeah. My 21-year-old brain thought, But, you know, divorce doesn't seem that complicated. Like, it's probably pretty straightforward. How did that work out? It wasn't not straightforward. Okay. Like, I, but no, but it, you know, and I knew that I. Now, are you planning the divorce before?

1:02:21A hundred percent. And so we, he literally printed out like a marriage contract online and got some guy on the internet to like come over to my house. Um, I found like a white turtleneck that was in my closet and like threw it on because like I was like, this is appropriate, right? Yeah, yeah. Literally not hearing the smoke detector in my head being like, don't do this. You don't have to do this. No guy should be like, let's marry. You know what I mean? It was my intention not to tell anyone because I knew in my gut it wasn't right. How long were you married for? I think we're married for, oh, I was away for six months.

1:02:58When I got back, it became abundantly clear we weren't a match in any way. Did he come to visit you in Mexico? I don't think so. Oh. I don't remember that happening. That's interesting. Because he's like – Also, it's like not that long of a flight. I don't know what – like everyone was very dramatic. I don't know. Like it's literally just like going – people go to Mexico for the weekend. Like what are we talking about? I love that it's like if you leave, like we're not going to make it so we have to get married. It was so dramatic. Okay, okay. So you come back and then eventually you're like this isn't working.

1:03:27This isn't the thing. When did you tell your mom? I told my mom, hey, I'm breaking up with Justin and I need a lawyer. And she was like, you did not. And I was like, I did. And my mom has always been somebody that mobilizes. My mom is like, like if anyone is going through a breakup, my mom is not employed right now. So if you need someone to show up, she'll like send you for a manicure and be like, I have the U-Haul. Like go take care of yourself. What is your mom's first name? Cheryl. Cheryl is going to be there to be like, girls, let's get the divorce papers. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. So she mobilized for you.

1:04:05Yeah, she mobilized. And you got the fuck out. Almost a decade later. Yeah. You met your now husband on a movie set. What drew you to him? Was there intensity there? Tell me everything. Okay. We met on my birthday. day, we had a meeting about a movie that he had written, the first movie that he was ever going to make. And when a director offers you a movie, they send you an email through your agents. And there's usually the script, maybe a lookbook, and usually a letter that expresses why they think you're right for the movie and tells you a little bit about the movie. And sometimes with a first time filmmaker, they'll tell you a little bit about themselves.

1:04:58So. No. Yeah. So I brought you the letter because I knew we were going to talk about relationships. I am sad. No one has ever done this on Call Her Daddy. Emmy. I have the letter. Where is my letter? Oh, I'm not gonna read the whole thing because my husband is long-winded. His films are long and his letter is long. But this is the letter that he wrote me. I'm going to read some excerpts of it. Give it to us. Oh, I'm so ready. So here's the thing. You're a beautiful, successful actress. Thank you. With a long career ahead of you, doing my movie would require you to take a gamble on somebody you don't know.

1:05:39So I'll give you a rough sketch of whom we're dealing with. I'm a screenwriter reluctantly living in Los Angeles, wishing I were in Manhattan. I'm tall, but I hunch. My parents are Egyptian, but I was born in New Jersey. I'm too nerdy to be a hipster and too cool to be a nerd, so I have friends and enemies on both sides of the aisle. The entire situation fills me with a lot of anxiety. A lot. I do not care much for money. I also don't have much of it, given my incredible Dartmouth-NYU student loan debt. I also want to make movies because I have to. I'll explain. I was in therapy the other day, analyzing the very subject.

1:06:20I've wanted to be a filmmaker ever since I was eight, and it's been a long, arduous journey to get there. And I'm telling all of this to Cottle. That's my therapist's name. It's pronounced like Cottle. How fitting. Anyway, Cottle sits there all intense and pensive like he normally is and says the same thing he normally says. This is just your career, Sam. There's more to life than your work. I hated him for using that word. I finally told him, stop using that word. This is not a career. That session turned ugly and weird, but it also turned out to be very important. It's when we realized I don't look at this like a job.

1:06:58It's the same way a mom wants to be a mom, a dad wants to be a dad, or a pet wants to be petted. It's a want that just is. if there were a parallel universe where filmmaking was the equivalent of a$30 ,000 a year factory job, I'd be there. And I was like, who is this? That sounds immediately into it. He's like, I'm in therapy. I'm like, check, check. I love my job. I'm tall, but I hunch. I'm like, who is this voice? I'm a nerd, but I'm not a nerd. I'm not a hipster. Like all the everything. So when you get that. Yeah. What is your first reaction? I was sitting in the hair and makeup trailer at Shameless.

1:07:40And I was reading the letter before I had read the script. And I turned to Shinola Hampton and Sharon Rivera, our head of hair, and was like, can I read you this letter? I think I'm supposed to know this person. And there was something that was just like immediately familiar or intriguing or something. So I read the script and it was undeniable. And I was like, who is this person? And then I met him and he showed up in a American apparel hoodie in a vintage Prius. And he had lookbooks upon lookbooks upon lookbooks about what the film was going to be, how he was going to make it. And I was immediately impressed by his work ethic and his vision and thought he was a really interesting person.

1:08:29What did it feel like after you are like, I am so impressed with this person. I am already into it by his writing. Then you meet him, see him for the first time, hear his voice. When does it turn from work to romance? We knew each other for about a year. We developed the movie, went and found financing for the movie, He put the movie together. He cast it. And then we started, we had spent time together over that year. And I remember I started thinking about life through the lens of him. I would be eating a sandwich and I'd be like, I wonder if Sam likes tuna. Or I'd be like, you know, I drove past a museum and was like, I wonder if Sam would like to see the Kubrick exhibit.

1:09:25I wonder if Sam would think that's funny. And I was so curious about him. And I had spent so long trying to find someone that I thought would understand me when I realized maybe what I'm after is trying to find somebody I never want to stop trying to understand. Like I was so fascinated by him. And then about a week before he made the movie, he came over to my house for dinner and he said, I've just been to therapy and I really have to get this off my chest. Coddle and I talked about this and I just have to tell you that I love you. And we hadn't even started the movie yet. I was like, huh? Um, I did not say it back.

1:10:23I did not know how I felt.

1:10:28Um, and then we started the movie a week later. What did you say back? Bon appétit. I don't really remember saying much of anything. I think he said something like, but I don't mean it like that. What I mean is like, I mean, I do, but I also don't. Like, obviously I'm me and you're you. And I'm sure that, like, you know, you could never love me. And one day I'm sure that I'll be at your wedding and I'll always love you from afar. And nothing ever has to happen. Obviously, it won't. And I just needed to say that. And then the rest is history, eventually. Yeah, I mean, the second that I got on set and I saw him, he was so kind and capable.

1:11:13And he played really good music at Video Village. and he gave really good notes. And so suddenly he went from someone, suddenly he was really sexy. His like quiet power was like, oh no. So then I said after the first week, I think I love you too. And he was like, no, you don't. And I was like, yes, I fucking do. And he was like, okay, here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna kiss you. And you're gonna be like, I don't feel anything. And then we're just gonna go back to the way. And I was like, what are you doing? just do it already. And he's like, but it can't mess up the movie. And I was like, okay, it won't.

1:11:51And then it didn't mess up the movie. And then we kissed and we've basically, we broke the couch. We broke the couch. We had an L sofa and we broke the couch. We broke the couch. Yeah. And that was 14 years ago. 14 years ago. Yeah. Can you talk about how you've said throughout our conversation today, you know, like I have these abandoned abandonment wounds. Yeah. And, you know, I know your relationship with your or lack thereof relationship with your father was extremely complicated. Like, how did you finding such a stable, incredible partner that you love so much? Like, have you been able to look at that relationship with your father and whether it's heal some wounds or just like, how do you feel about it now?

1:12:43Oh, it's such a good question. My relationship with my husband and watching him be the world's greatest girl dad, he was like made to be a girl dad. It's the ultimate healing. The ultimate. And my husband is so loyal and so kind and so giving and so everything I've really ever wanted. That's so beautiful. I didn't even think about that. Like you're getting, it's healing watching him do to your daughters what you didn't get. Yeah. And to watch him do it so incredibly. Yeah, effortlessly. And to do it to such a caliber that like you're - He would never ever leave her. Wow, that's really beautiful.

1:13:27Because I feel like I'm sure there's so many women watching who have complicated relationships or don't have relationships with their father. And that is such a, from experience with my friends who have a similar situation where you're like, I don't have the relationship. And some of my friends are like, I don't even want it. But trying to find your way forward with those male figures in your life and put in place what that would look like in your ideal world, to be able to get it and to watch it, how healing that must feel i'm so happy for you it's moving yeah it is have you ever reached out or ever spoken to your father again since yeah yeah yeah you're younger okay i met my dad when i was four but i wasn't told he was my dad and why was that he told my mom that he wouldn't come if she told me who he was so you thought you were just meeting like a guy came one of my mom's friends came to take me for dinner for my birthday.

1:14:31And I was four or five. So I didn't ask many questions about it. I didn't really get it. And Skye came and took me for dinner and we went for spaghetti. And I don't remember much of it. The only thing I remember is I, you know, kids cut their spaghetti. And I remember he said, we don't cut our spaghetti. And I went home and my mom was like, how was it? And I was like, he said, we don't cut our spaghetti. And she was like, okay. So then a couple years later, after hearing at school and kindergarten and first and second grade, you know, who's your dad? You know, it wasn't common to have a single parent household.

1:15:09At least when I was growing up, it wasn't as common. All the families that I grew up in looked very traditional and conventional. And so I felt that absence very much. And so I started asking my mom more and more, who's my dad? just tell me who's my dad and she's like do you remember that guy that came to take you for dinner and I was like we don't cut our spaghetti guy is my dad and she's like we don't cut our spaghetti guy is your dad and I was devastated I was like I didn't like we don't cut our spaghetti guy she's like I know um yeah and then did you ever I did I did I met him once when I was eight he took me to Casper and he fell asleep but I did develop a deep crush on Devin Sawa so the day was not for naught.

1:15:58Completely lost yeah okay and then I didn't really see him again until I was on Shameless in my 20s and we tried a couple times but he's just not really interested in loving me oh but my husband is amazing with my daughter and getting to watch him play with her, pick her up from school, be so incredibly devoted as a dad and to my son too. Getting to watch the fact that I got to give her something that I didn't get is I get to live vicariously through that. And that's enough for me. It's beautiful. Intimacy. Yeah. How has your understanding of intimacy changed since your early 20s? Well, I'm so much better at asking for what I want now.

1:16:57I, you know, that little voice inside of you that says, I'd like to be touched like this, or I'd like this, or I don't like that, or that feels, I felt that my voice felt quiet and stifled when I was younger. I felt shame about expressing desire. I felt shame about expressing specifics that I wanted, about using the words. But you have to tell somebody what you want. And also, what you want on Monday doesn't mean you want it on Thursday. And it's okay to say, yeah, I wanted that on Monday. I don't want that today. It's okay to grow and change. And I feel like I have a lot more comfort. And part of that was my pregnancy because my hormones were so strong and I felt so sexual.

1:17:46I was so down that it was the voice was so loud in my head. It was screaming that I couldn't ignore it.

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1:18:43You still get that classic sour than sweet experience, but now the pieces come connected together in little bestie pairs. It is... I'm not okay. It's so cute. They're literally attached at the hip, which is perfect because I was never stopping at just one anyways. Go share some besties with your bestie. Oh my God, it's so good. Can we talk about motherhood? Yeah. My favorite topic. I'm pregnant, obviously. And I feel like a lot of the advice that I'm getting for parenting advice, a lot of people just keep saying like, oh, my God, you kind of just have to figure things out. Like that's it. People can try to prepare you and tell you what's going to happen.

1:19:22How did you personally embrace the uncertainty of not having all of the answers and not being able to look at the page? Like you said, you do your script and fill in the blanks and prepare and be ready. and then get onto that set and like take it 100 % like a pro. You kind of can't do that from what I understand with motherhood, Emmy. Tell me. You can and you can't. Like you can prepare, but then you never know how things are going to hit you. And there's like so much instinct at play. You will just know, at least for me, I can only say from my experience. I saw my child. I knew my child and I was so taken.

1:20:04I, I, you know, I had the same thing where, that I said about my mom. I wanted to be a mother that was worthy of being this child's mother. And then I realized I'm trying too hard. I'm trying too hard to be worthy of anybody else. I just got to be me.

1:20:28and women are always told, you can have it all. You can. But that actually means you have to do it all. And it comes at a cost. And often that cost is not your job and not your kid, but you. So when my daughter was 10 months old, this is an insane story. When my daughter was 10 months old, This is what my therapist calls the pancake problem. I was going to shoot on the crowded room and I had like a 16-hour shoot day and I was waking up before she was going to wake up and I was coming home way before, right after she was going to be asleep. And I was like, how will my daughter know that I love her today?

1:21:17She will think I don't love her today. She's 10 months old. She doesn't know what's going on, right? she literally doesn't know what's going on so i thought okay well the car is gonna pick me up in like 20 minutes but i have to do some things that my daughter knows i love her today so i have to take a shower i have to get in the car in 20 minutes but i'm gonna make my daughter pancakes from scratch also before i leave this is so i turn on the stove i make the batter I turn it on low I put three little pancakes in the pan and um I set a timer on my phone for three minutes because that's generally how long until you got a flip I ran to the shower got in the shower shampooed washed it out ding ding ding the timer goes off time to flip the pancakes gotta get out of the shower but I still have to condition so I'll have to get back in the shower.

1:22:14This is insane. But this is also so postpartum. Like I was like in it the first year. You like wet towel, like running back and forth. No, I'm naked. You're naked. I'm, but I'm naked. I don't time for a towel. The pancakes are on and I'm in the shower and I got to be in the car in 15 minutes. Run to the pancakes. They're perfect. Flip them. Gorgeous. Golden brown perfection. Sprint back to the shower, but I left the shower door just to crack open. So the water is on the floor. So I slip and my foot gets caught under the shower door and I hear like a crack. And now I'm like down on the shower floor.

1:22:52And I then scream out like someone turned the pancakes off. I then like army crawl to the kitchen. The pancakes were fine. I then called work and was like, hey, I'm going to I'm going to be a couple minutes late and I need to switch my pickup to Lenox Hill hospital probably just like just just like 20 minutes late i'm so sorry i just need like probably a quick x-ray and i'll be right i'll just a quick little x-ray and i'll be right there by the way i didn't hold camera i was like i was completely there on time i got the x-ray my daughter got the pancakes and at the end of the day i was like something's gotta change okay no i'm listening to the story i'm like i thought that we were like we had to call in to work and we're like out for work no no no she got the pancakes yeah she did the work in the in a boot and she lost her mind yeah 100 and so this was a lesson I learned that year and got really really good at being like I'm gonna do less but it's something that comes up for me a lot like just last week I took I went to set I shot my first scene I had like the middle of the day off I took my kids to the zoo I took them on a zip line.

1:24:01We got lunch. I went back to set, did my last scenes, went back, did bath time, bedtime, got on a Zoom. And I was like, I'm depleted. I got to. So this pancake issue, I think, is real for a lot of women, a lot of moms who really want to show up on every level in their lives. They're showing up at work. They're showing up for their kids. No one is feeling it, right? But they're feeling it. And so I think for me, the biggest lesson is that sometimes it's okay to do a little bit less. I know. I feel like that's what everyone's like, but then I feel so guilty of like one area has to suffer. And like, has that impacted the way that you view your career and success at all?

1:24:47Hmm. Well, motherhood hasn't made me any less desirous of storytelling or ambitious. Clearly not. That's why we're here today. We're about to get there. Yeah. And I think it's made me more strategic and clearer about when it's worth, when the story is worth me missing even the smallest moments of my kid's life. Like a normal day, I wake up and I take them on the public bus and I do drop off. And if I go to set, I go to set. And if not, I go about my day and I pick up like I want to be in my kids' lives as much as possible. Your new project. Yeah. The show Furious. Yeah. It is your production company's second project.

1:25:34Yeah. And you are both the executive producer and you are the star. So congratulations. Thank you. Doing both. I am so interested to hear you talk more about it because it is obviously so like female led and I know that's what your production company focuses on. Yeah. But just tell us a little bit more about it from your perspective. And what drew you to it? I really wanted to go back and look at old films that had good skeletons of what could make a TV show and was really, really looking for a character that would be as rich and as deep and as fascinating as Fiona that I could play for years and years.

1:26:18And it's a really fascinating world. It tells the story of my character, Alice, who is a former NYPD detective, which is a very prestigious job. It is not a job that people leave. And Alice has left the police department because she's been in an abusive relationship with another officer who she's known since her teenage years. And she started over at the FBI. So she's a new FBI agent who's really going to have to work her way up. And she stumbles upon this idea that there's a murder that is connected to an old case that she had at the NYPD. So we are simultaneously following this serial killer, this really fascinating, mysterious woman who has been also a victim of violence and is kind of on a mission to enact vengeance and get justice for herself.

1:27:16and Alice's plan to get justice on a much larger scale. And we'll notice that the women are actually more similar than they are different. And I was really fascinated too by what happens for women in law enforcement when they need to make a complaint on their own behalf. Like who do you call when your partner is hurting you and is also in law enforcement, you call 911 and who answers the phone? The partner of your partner whose responsibility is to watch each other's back on the street. It is incredibly complicated, dynamic, and very charged. And for Alice, who stumbles upon this case and then gets back involved with the NYPD, who she's been running from, to have to see that former person at your new job when you've done everything to get away from them.

1:28:17And also the relationship between Alice and her ex is one that had violence and control, but also love and desire and loyalty and history for a very, very long time. So it's a very, very complicated, like fertile ground and one that I was like, I could dig here for a long time. Well, I agree. My team and I were talking about how we just love these female characters. And I know the show gets its title from the Greek goddess of vengeance. You had mentioned the word vengeance. Multiple goddesses, yeah, who's want to enact vengeance. Can you explain what really started to interest you about female fury and rage?

1:29:02oh well i think women have a lot to be furious about um that felt cheesy but i didn't mean it that way um because that's the title of the show okay um no i think um i think sometimes as we see with these characters our power does come from being underestimated um for both of these women They have to work in the shadows outside the conventions and they both exhibit very risky behavior. And I think that that's why they're fascinating to watch. Something that I love that you do a little differently is the central conflict. Yes, being at first between these two women, obviously, there's so many layers to it.

1:29:50But I feel like neither woman neatly fits into the hero or the villain box, which I love that so much. And I'm curious, like, what interested you in kind of putting out a show that does live in the gray area? I love that. I mean, I think that's so delicious. I think that there's so much more kind of juice to be found in moral gray areas than in people who seem one way but then surprise you and can be other ways. No, I completely agree. Are there any themes that you have been really pulled to in your life recently or any, I don't know, anything just like thematically that you're like, oh, that's also something I want to definitely explore in the future in a project or whatever it be that you're like, I think that's something as a woman, especially with my female led company that I want to kind of take on.

1:30:52Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm interested in exploring all aspects of contemporary womanhood. Anything that causes us shame, anything that makes me uncomfortable or confused or to feel some sort of way, that's what I move towards. Certainly roles that scare me, and this one did. I have so much respect for how much you pour into your roles. And obviously, even hearing you say, I wanted to find something that was as intense for me and brought it to life, like Fiona because that those are huge shoes to fill everyone like thinks of that role and they're like oh my god it was so iconic and so the fact that you have such a passion for this show coming out I know it's like how exciting as yes an actress but also on the back end being behind the camera and bringing this to life um I'm so happy for you thank you it's really cool I literally was just like a sponge wanting to talk to you about everything and I know we went all over the place today, but that was by design because I was like, I need to, I know we only have so much time, but I need to try to cherry pick every little thing from you.

1:32:00I enjoyed talking to you too, very much. Thank you for sitting with me and just having some girl chat. Thank you so much. I appreciated it very much.

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