Esther Perel: Cheating 101 (FBF)

0:02What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with call her daddy.

0:13I remember it like it was yesterday. September 24th, 2017. Everyone remembers the exact place that they were when they caught their significant other cheating. I opened the iPad and I wanted to fucking barf. I was sick to my stomach. I felt so betrayed. I was shocked, hurt, angry, disgusted, numb. I felt crazy. and I hate to admit but I cried because I was the one who had spent the previous five six I don't even know fucking however long I had however long I had been dating I was the one structuring romantic relationships so that I was in control and then this motherfucker comes and begs me to make it official please be my girlfriend I love you so much.

1:19Please, please, please suck my wiener. I love you. I want you. No. Yes. Okay. Fine. And then I find the dick pics that you sent to your nutritionist who is a married mother of two. That is fucking gross. And I guess I wasn't in control because this motherfucker hurt me. I remember having in that moment no idea what to do do I confront him do I stay do I leave do I tell my friends my family do I keep reading these messages do I take screenshots obviously of course always take the screenshots proof but I guess the point is that that type of pain is hard to forget It is such a unique, lonely pain.

2:12Why does it sting so bad? At the time, I could have really used the guidance and advice of today's guest, someone who I consider an expert in all things relationships, the one, the only Esther Perel. Esther is a psychotherapist who is recognized as one of the leading voices in modern relationships. Daddy Gang, she has a therapy practice in New York City, has authored two bestselling books, Mating in Captivity, and the book that we are here to talk about today, The State of Affairs. Daddy Gang, welcome to therapy with Esther Perel. Daddy gang, if also after you listen to this episode and you are like, I need more Esther, have no fear.

3:07Esther is fucking here. Guys, you can listen to her podcast. Where should we begin? Or you can also check out where should we begin? Which is Esther's new game of stories designed to unlock the storyteller within. I've played it over. I was going to say a glass wine, a couple glasses, a tequila. and it was very fun. Enjoy.

3:40So interesting to see you, Alex, after I've heard you at full speed talking in my ears. Oh my gosh, I feel the same way, but I'm usually reading your words. And so now it's amazing to put a face to the book. Okay, let's get started. Shall we? Esther, it is an honor. Thank you for taking the time to come on Call Her Daddy. It's my pleasure. I am a huge fan. I've read Mating in Captivity, and now I'm reading The State of Affairs, a whole book on cheating. I posted a quote from your book, and the daddy gang cannot get enough. And I think it's because everybody has a cheating story, right? Whether you were cheated on, someone you know was cheated on, a family member, a parent, and reading your book is going to give people insight into the thing we all love to not talk about, but also love to talk about.

4:37So Esther, let's just get into it. How do you define cheating? Cheating is an experience and an act of betrayal. It's a violation of trust, but it's for every couple to define some couples will define cheating as watching porn online some couples will define cheating as a massage with a happy ending and some people will define cheating as reconnecting with an ex on Facebook so it really is for every couple today to define it especially since the definition keeps on expanding and then there is just basically what it has been historically. It also has been very genderized. What was considered cheating for women was often considered just being a man.

5:21So the hierarchies of society have defined what cheating was, and then it's also the privacy of each couple. That was something I really loved reading in your book about just the concept of secrecy and betrayal being the largest themes that would be considered cheating, but there's so many versions of secrecy and betrayal like you just described. Do you know what are the top two reasons why people cheat? Like, are there statistics on it? No, there are no statistics and there are no two top reasons. I think where you started is really very good. If you ask people if they have ever been betrayed, if they themselves have had an affair, if they were the children of an illicit relationship, if they were the friend on whose shoulder somebody is weeping, you will probably get that 80 % of the population has been affected by the experience of infidelity in their lives.

6:18State of affairs is 10 years of working with infidelity. And I don't think I'm at the bottom of it yet. The gamut goes from, you know, the person who can't make a commitment and cheats because they are afraid of the intimacy and they want to maintain their options to the person who is experiencing decades of loneliness in a relationship and to the person who has been been unwanted and untouched for so long that to the person who is longing for to reconnect with parts of themselves that have been so lost for so for so long it's really not one story yeah it's it's multi-layered this thing called infidelity that's really the starting point.

6:59Is there a statistic of who cheats more, men or women? Well, historically, men definitely had a license to roam. You know, it was considered being a man. Nobody thought of this particularly as cheating, and the expectations of fidelity were primarily on women in order to know to whom do these children belong, you know. So it was very clearly genderized and you knew exactly who did it more often on the other end you would say who did those men do it with they didn't all go to other men so there is something also about how women have also longed for connection for sexuality for pleasure for passion in the beginning of my show years ago it was a joke but it was a play on what you're discussing of historically the men cheat right cheat on him reclaim your power like all these women were writing in always so terrified that their partner was going to cheat.

7:54And I was like, well, why don't you cheat first? And of course it was a joke. It was a joke or a strategy. It was, you know, a little bit of joke, a little bit of strategy. Take what you want from Call Her Daddy always. So Esther, you are an expert at counseling couples post cheating, and you've divided the post cheating recovery into three phases. Can you list those three phases? Typically there is, first of all, the crisis. I've just found out. You know, I found out because somebody came to tell me. I found out because I got a phone call. I found out because I discovered an iPad with a whole track record.

8:31And I have been found out. That could be the other side. Somebody has just come and said to me, you've been lying to me. What's going on? You know, I've asked you more than once. So there's this whole issue of the crisis phase. It's all come up like that front and center. Then there is a meaning making phase. OK, what was this about? Not just what happened and what were the facts, but what is the meaning? Why did this happen? Why did you do this? What did you find there? What what does it mean for us? Did you hope I would find out? Did you hope I would never know? Do you want me to take you back?

9:03Do you want me to actually kick you out? What is it? You know, and then the third one for those who have it is, OK, what will we do with this? What meaning does this have for our relationship? And can we learn from this and use it to reinvigorate ourselves, to redefine the relationship? Every affair will redefine a marriage or a relationship and every relationship will define what the meaning of the affair will be. I love that you put it into three phases and I do think that this book is helping almost if anyone is getting cheated on or even is cheating it almost helps to categorize it so that you have an idea of where you're at because it can feel very debilitating when you're in the thick of it I think we should role play okay what you call role play is what I do the whole day but that's Okay.

9:53Okay. So daddy gang, again, that's what I call my listeners. I think they want an example, right? And I think it helps to role play. So let's drop ourselves into a scenario where someone, and I'm going to play the someone, finds out that they're getting cheated on and you are the expert guide me through Esther. Okay. So I opened my boyfriend of two years computer. I am madly in love with this guy. I saw myself marrying him, but I catch him cheating. I'm sitting in this room alone on the ground. I'm reading messages after messages and I'm scrolling and I'm scrolling on this computer. What is the first thing I should do?

10:34Daddy gang, close the iPad. Close it. You're going to get more of the same. It's not original. There's not a thousand ways to see people do sexy talk or love talk. Close it because you're going to get a death by a thousand cuts. And I'm saying close it not because I'm just saying you know what you need to know. Yeah. Stop it. This is about your own self-protection. Maybe at another point you can ask for more questions. But right now and then make sure that you have someone near you that you can just go and weep and scream dream and curse and go through the combustion of all the feelings that you're going to get.

11:22You know, you're going to want to kick, you're going to want to shake, you're going to want to shut down. It's a whole, you know, series of contradictory feelings, one after the other. How could you do this to me? Why did this happen? Of course it happens to me. I don't want to talk to you ever again, but don't leave me, but get the hell out of here and on and on like that. And the reason I divide it in three stages is because it really takes it outside of you a little bit and says, this is how this thing plays out. It's not just you. At first, you think you go crazy. The floor is ripped underneath your feet.

11:55You wonder what world have I been living in? What is the reality here? Is anything I thought was true really true or the whole thing was fake, et cetera, et cetera? So that's my first thing for you. And, you know, I'm remembering the first season of Where Should We Begin? I had five different episodes on the podcast of stories of infidelity. And every one of them was so completely different. So I don't know, Daddy Gang, I'm going to talk to you again as an individual and a collective. I don't know which is your reaction. There is the reaction that is an explosive one. There is the one that is implosive.

12:31There is the one in anger. There's the one in tears. there is the one where you meet your partner and finally you have a conversation like you haven't had in years and you sit down till five o 'clock in the morning I don't know which is going to be your version which is why I played you different plots so that you can see which one is the one that is more likely to be you well Esther thank you because right now in our role play we live together and he's about to come home from work so I just found this on the computer he's coming home from work. What is the first thing that I say to him when he walks in the door?

13:07You may do one out of 10 things. Yeah, you may have been waiting for him to come in. And before he even takes off his coat, you're screaming at him. And you're telling him, I know everything. You may not want to tell something because you want to see if he's going to tell you and you're going to say, where did you just come from? Where were you yesterday? You may want to trap him. You may want to say, you know, I think this is the end of us. This is not the first time you may want to say, you know, I know that this is going on. Shall we talk about this and be super calm and kind of look at yourself from the outside and be incredulous that you're so composed?

13:43I don't know which version of you and neither do you. It's just the beginning. The beginning can start off in tears and then it can go into a deep conversation. The beginning can start off with kicking and then it can go into tears. This is a series of things. The first moment isn't the definitive moment. What if he starts gaslighting me saying I shouldn't have gone through the computer? Like, how do I handle that? That is absolutely the case that I did enter into your private space because you have introduced a foreign person into my private space as well. You know, this thing of let's deflect it and talk about how you shouldn't have entered my phone or my iPad when in fact We're talking about something else.

14:23I did so because I felt something or I did so because I stumbled upon it because I was looking for the receipt of something. And here I was. I wasn't looking for that. But nevertheless, you know, there is an you may be very upset about the fact that I stayed there in your computer. But let's be clear. You also have introduced someone in our world that I did not ask you for. Yeah. So can we go back to what we're really talking about? What do I do if he denies cheating?

14:57So if you have, you know, what is it that you need? Do you need him to say, yes, I did? He may begin to not deny, but he may say, but it wasn't really that, but it wasn't really sex because, you know, I didn't really come and it wasn't really sex because I kept my clothes on and it wasn't really that. And, you know, it was just that. That's the other version. It was just this. It's not really cheating. It's, you know, I never saw the person again. And I mean, are you trying to minimize it? What are you trying to say? Yeah. The fact is, we have an agreement or we don't have an agreement, but we have an assumption about an agreement.

15:31And you are lying to me or you are betraying me and you are going behind my trust. And I'm actually not so interested in your agreeing or not agreeing. I'm clear about what I saw. Yeah. See, this is where you ask yourself, daddy gang, what is it that you need to know in order to know? And do you want to be talked out of it? Do you actually want someone who says, come, come, it wasn't anything we can get over this? You know, do you want someone who helps you brush it over? Do you want someone who says, that's true. I've been really lonely. I've been pissed. You've not been interested in me. You've been only working.

16:12You haven't had we haven't made love in God knows how long. and I couldn't get your attention? Or do you want somebody who says, I fell in love with somebody? It's not about cheating. I fell in love with someone and I want to leave you. You don't know where you start the conversation and where it takes you. We're in the crisis phase right now, right? And in this role play, my life has been turned upside down. I wanted to marry this man. And moments ago, I find out that he's fucking his coworker and my emotions are all over the place. I have no idea what I want right now. I'm trying to process I'm terrified what if he then comes at me and asks me okay well what do you want do you want to break up what if he gives me almost the ultimatum question of okay great you found out what do you want I don't even know you are flooded your brain can't process this you don't make a decision close the doors for a moment take your time and if he asks you what do you want you just say at this moment I just want to find a way to take my next breath I am buckling inside.

17:16I am in such tremendous pain. At this moment, what I want is for you to acknowledge the minimum. The minimum is that you hurt me, that you put us at risk. You know, you lose your predictable future. You thought you were going to marry him, but so did he. So at that moment, it's a loss of identity for both. It's a loss of the predictable future for both. It's a loss of trust for both. And that's really enough to deal with at that moment. There's no decision to be made. Right. That's great to know, like getting into the weeds of the dynamics in the crisis phase is not going to be productive. I also would want all you need to know is what you're going to do tonight.

17:58Yeah, you're going to sleep tonight. Can you be in the same house? should you be on a separate bed on couch should you go and stay for a night or two or whatever at somebody else's place so that you can kind of gather your thoughts again just in the moment response don't make a plan for life what if my immediate reaction is i want to leave but i'm nervous to leave because what if i leave and then he actually doesn't even want to take me back and how do i deal with that conflicting feeling of wanting to leave but being scared if i walk out then it's actually over. But that fear is not the result of the infidelity.

18:34Yeah, this is if you have this feeling, this has been there for you. And if you are in living with fear of that sort, you better revisit your relationship, really. Great answer. Then on the other spectrum, in my case, in my role play, I'm nervous that I might do something that night that I'll regret in the morning. And in the book you write that it is common to have sex in the wake of the discovery of the cheating what do I say in the morning if I slept with him but then I wake up feeling angry and betrayed and no longer sexually turned on and he misinterpreted my initial response as forgiveness you basically say I needed to connect and now I'm not this is part of this compassion of of contradictory feelings that we have.

19:23One minute is hold me and one minute is don't touch me. It's not an uncommon story. And it is one that is often not talked about out loud because people feel very embarrassed about it, that actually there is something about the reconnection at that moment that is also sexual for some people. Sometimes it's the conversation till four o 'clock in the morning. Sometimes it's the goodbye fuck. Sometimes it's the want me still. You know, I want to know that you still have those feelings for me. Then you wake up in the morning and you're dealing with another another facet of your feelings. And, you know, you just say last night, this is what I felt.

19:59And right now I'm feeling a host of other things. And they're all part of this experience. It's helpful for you to explain that normalize the amount of different emotions you're going to have and don't even try to suppress them. Like, just let them all happen. Because again, this is the crisis phase. You have no choice. They will just pour out of you. I love you. I hate you. I want to leave you. Don't leave me. Touch me. Hold me. Let me weep on you. Don't touch me. How can you? I feel terrible when you touch me. I feel terrible when you don't touch me. I want you. I'm embarrassed about wanting you.

20:34I still love you. And I hate you. And all of this, sometimes in three minutes or less. So the concept of getting embarrassed, I want to ask, like, who should I tell about the cheating? Let's say I can't go to therapy. Who should I lean on? Because is there a chance confiding in friends or family could complicate things? Like, I don't want to tell my parents they'll never accept him again. Oh, yes. And your friends, too. I mean, I advise most of the couples to each find one or two people, both of them, both of them, you know. So and you find sometimes not the closest person to you. You find the one who will know to let you go through this whole sequence that I just described without inserting themselves, without wanting you to do something to make it stop.

21:23It's really the person who can let you emote freely and just create a container for you and hold you and soothe you and just say, this sucks. This is so painful. This is so hard. Oh God, I love you. You're more than what just happened to you and continues to value you as a whole person rather than just as the cheated on.

21:59do you have any advice for someone that is the friend that the the person that gets cheated on goes to how to navigate being supportive and not giving opinion oh it it really it so friend number one, I say to you, just tell her or him or them, I'm here for you. Come spend the night. Let me cook for you. Let's take a walk. You know, let's just do a yoga together. Let's go for a run. Just get it out of the body. Let's not even think. Let's be in the body and let's move. And that's all we need to do. You want to cry, cry. You want to talk, talk. You want to write, write. I have you know I'm just I'm just a holding person for you friend number two which is more important he says this is the fourth time this is happening because there's different scenarios if you come to me for the fourth time I'm gonna say daddy gang this is enough right so if it's the first time you think being consoling and then if this has been repetitive you can start to give your not even opinion, just state the facts for them because they may not be able to fully see it clearly.

23:11But again, if they don't want to see it, just go back to that consoling, supportive friend. Yeah. I mean, between advice and consoling, there is also simply the person who holds the mirror and says, you know, I have heard that story a number of times. I'm so sorry. It will never happen again. You know, I love you. You're the most important person. You know, that's redemption cycle that goes on. You know, first I put you down, first I ignore you, I cheat on you, and then I come and I tell you that you're the most important person in my life, and only you can forgive me. The friend holds the mirror too, and it's one friend, two.

23:45What you don't want to do is start bitching on the partner so that the friend ends up defending, you know, the person ends up defending their partner because the other one is more angry than they themselves should be. So it's focusing more on your friend and what they are doing and going through and almost completely excluding the partner that cheated because you don't want to alienate your friend that got cheated on and feeling like, oh, my God, my friend hates my boyfriend. Like, I can't go back now. It's more about focus on your friend that got cheated and her feelings and not what happened with the actual partner and what they are doing.

24:21Yes. And two more. Accept that the person can be both angry and still love the person. Yeah. Don't shame them for that. Number three, understand that they may have a complex life, that they may have kids, that they may have kids with more difficulties that need two parents, that they may have an economic situation, that there's a lot of things that that person may have cheated on them, but it still is the same person who has been taking care of their alcoholic brother. Yeah, that's a great point. What is the sign that I am out of the crisis stage? hmm sometimes it's because you had a few very very good talks and you're feeling a little bit calmer you're not spending every minute of the day asking the next question and ruminating and going over the last months in the last years and revisiting and trying to figure it out you can actually have a breath that's one way you know you know because you begin to feel like you You know, you're asking a different set of questions.

25:23Oh, great. That's a good point. So that is stage two is meaning making. And what does meaning making mean? It means that you are going to be an investigator and not a detective. You're not going to go for all the sordid details that are going to keep you up at night. You're going to really ask, what does this mean for you, for me and for us? That's helpful. So now going back into the role play, I would say full disclosure, Esther, our sex life isn't what it used to be. We have obligatory sex once a month and he's sleeping with a co-worker. What are some follow up questions you would have for me and my partner?

26:06Did you ever talk about the miserable sex life that was happening? Do you think that's one number two, do you think that you were not available for him and that he reached out multiple times and every time you basically found a way of saying I've got more important things to do, be it sleep or email or whatever? Do you think that he had reasons to feel rejected? Do you take any responsibility in what happened? And I say responsibility and not blame. I just say a dynamic, you know, one person is responsible for the affair, but two people are responsible for the relationship. I would say that my answer as my role play would be we definitely weren't having sex as much as we did in the beginning of the relationship.

26:51But the past year was just very stressful. And the pandemic made me feel like I gained weight. I wasn't feeling great about myself. And I was trying to find other ways to connect, whether it was movie nights and dinners and spending quality time together. But yes, our sex life wasn't at its best, but I also was not. Yeah, we weren't communicating really about our sex life. And now have you talked about it now together? No, I'm so heartbroken about this coworker and I just envision him going into work every single day and seeing this woman. I want his passwords on everything. Does providing passwords and granting full transparency on social media and devices work to rebuild trust?

27:37And if not, what does? I've never thought that surveillance meant trust. Yeah. Trust is a leap of faith. Trust is basically engaging with the unknown. That's what, what, why you trust is because you don't know. And you believe that even though you don't know, and the person is not next to you, they're not going to do something behind your back. if you need to have surveillance you're not trusting you're controlling i want to ask my partner questions about why he cheated everyone's going to think my boyfriend cheated on me um we're role-playing daddy gang so my question is what are productive questions to ask in order to feel better and then what are questions that are petty and counterproductive so what you want to ask is You know, what did you find there?

28:27Did you think that you would leave us? Did you hope that I would find out? Did you ever try to tell me but couldn't? Did you think about our kids? Did you think about our life? Did you think about our friends? How was it when you would come home afterwards? How would you feel when you saw me and when we then would go and go to bed and still made love the two of us? These kinds of questions, you know, do you think that you could ever feel like that with me? We used to be like that. Do you think you could come back? Do you think we could ever overcome something like this? So what you don't want to ask are questions about how did you do it?