Esther Perel: Cheating, Codependency, & Connection

34:16And the third one is respect and recognition. Do you value me? When you didn't invite me to join you, we can talk about how I wasn't included, But the issue is I didn't feel valued. I don't feel like I'm important in your life. So power and control, care and closeness, and respect and recognition. Power, trust, and value. That's what most fights are about. Shit. If you get away from all the what, you will actually understand why people get so upset. It's so... I'm so happy you're here. I'm going to say that a million times today. It's so real because I can already see it. I'm sure everyone else can that's watching.

35:02It's like you're venting to your friend and it's like I'm waiting for him to text me and it's driving me insane because then I found out he ended up going to the dinner and he never even invited me. And I just don't like I don't even understand. I'm just so over it. I'm done. And I like actually fucking hate him and I'm over it. And what you're saying is like, okay, slow down for a second because this is someone you love and get underneath like what is it that's actually upsetting you? And that probably would fall, I would assume, into the category, the last one, right? Yes, totally. Where you're just like you're looking for the recognition and you want to be respected and seen and a part of their life.

35:37You want to feel like you mean something to someone. And when you went alone and you didn't tell me or you didn't invite me, you didn't include me, I'm like, you know, mashed potatoes. I don't feel valued. I don't feel valued. And I think what you had said earlier, even in the dating, that really applies to this is what's so hard in conflict resolution between couples is so much, almost a lot of time in no matter what argument it is, also starts in power in terms of like, I don't want to admit I was wrong here or whatever, but it also is power in terms of like, it requires you to actually get vulnerable.

36:18You know what is the most beautiful power? One of them, there's so many, but I have often said to people in sessions, I'm trying to think about an episode on the podcast that people could go listen to that kind of instantly speaks to that, where I say the person who apologizes first is often the person who has the most power. I love that. Do you understand? Roll that again, because we feel the weakest, right? Yes, exactly. and especially those for whom this feels weakening to admit, to acknowledge, to take responsibility, to say I made a mistake or I was wrong or I went too far. Why do they have the most power?

36:58Because if I say that to you, it is more likely that you will say, A, thank you. B, I appreciate this. Three, you feel seen. Four, you realize that we're both in this together. Yeah. and um and five it's not so bad i can get over it because my admission is all you needed i don't need to you know stretch myself on the floor it's not i shame myself and make my is i'm just simply saying to you it's this it's that gesture with my head i know i see i own it i take my responsibility and then usually what do you do you say well i wasn't at my best either right then they'll meet you there you meet me there you meet me there that's power that's power too rather than power over i was gonna say because there's such a difference between i was gonna be like okay power sounds negative right power sounds like you have something over people because i remember growing up my mom would always say like the person who cares the least in the relationship has all the power and it pisses people off when you say that they're like that's not true and it's like no no the person who cares the least has all of the power they don't give a fuck so you're constantly trying to get their attention and get them to care and get them and you're the one that's aggressive towards and the other person can just sit back and be like i'm fucking chilling that's toxic why are you making such a big deal you know what's what's the big deal can't you just you know and that's toxic power that's using power in a way that's not fair in the relationship why is it toxic because you're what is the tone when you say what you just said i think it's it's a imbalanced relationship in a way that feels manipulative right like they're using word for it what contempt what what stands out when you say what's the big deal Why you need to always overblow things?

39:06You always have to make such a big drama. You know, just, you know, just chill, just relax. Just keep it in perspective. Just, just, just. Meaning, what's wrong with you? And what's wrong with you says, I have contempt. Which is really the number one killer, actually.

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41:36Okay, so if you're ready to get more out of your money, sign up for SoFi checking and savings at SoFi.com slash callherdaddy. SoFi checking and savings is offered through SoFi Bank, NA, member FDIC. Terms apply. When is it betrayal to go and share too much with friends or family about issues you're having in your relationship? Every biography is a betrayal of someone else. You cannot tell your story without telling things about people who are in your story who didn't ask to be spoken about. that's it by definition i mean this is the era where more people have written biographies than ever before every person has a biography to write so a biography tells my story in the context of many relationships with others who didn't ask for the story to be told every biography is a betrayal a small one but it's a bit yes okay wait but esther it doesn't it helps you to some degree process when you get to i didn't mean to say therefore you shouldn't tell you're like oh girl get after it but you need to know that right that's what we do right and i've look i've had more than one in this instance men in in hetero relationships tell me you know if I knew it's about how much my partner, my girlfriend, my wife, whatever my girlfriend tells her girlfriends about us betrayal would be redefined I think that there is often a sense among women girls that it's not a betrayal because I'm talking to my best friend whereas for many people many men who are much less likely to share that much about their girlfriends to their male friends to if they were to discover all what she is able to put out there betrayal would be redefined and i think that there is something to think about that now when you talk to your girlfriends the question is this are you ever actually saying what you have done as well?

43:53Or are you only talking about what he or she or they did to you? And that's where the girlfriends can come in and say, look, everything starts with the name of the other person. Alex did this and Alex said that and Alex didn't. And you know what Alex, and what Alex again, Alex, Alex, Alex. At some point you want to say, and where is Esther in the story? And if Esther is not mentioned, And what did you do? You know, when I see a couple and I see one person telling me a story and then when the other one arrives, it's like everything this one left out is what this one starts with. But how though then, Esther, do you protect the privacy of your relationship without fully isolating yourself from your friends and your family?

44:41It's in the tone. It's in the way you, of course you come to your friends. I'm struggling with something. I don't know what to do. and good friends sometimes give advice and sometimes really make space and listen and just say you will figure this out i'm here for you if you need to sometimes i need to tell you this is what i think is happening now you need to talk to her you need to tell her what's happening with you you know you're dealing with loss you're dealing with illness you're dealing with children you're dealing with no work you're dealing with loss of your best friends whatever you need to be able to to talk but talking is not the same as dishing right and also starting more with i statements rather than the constant and then he did this and then blame blame blame blame and i'm the victim of the other person's doing that is not always the case interesting i do find that like emotional depth and intelligence i think sometimes a lot of women write in just feeling like I really like him in the beginning it's been fun but like I'm starting to wonder if he's emotionally intelligent enough and can go deep with me enough and I'm starting to go to my friends and family when I'm going through hard things or when I'm looking to have an intellectual conversation because he can't meet me there like how do you gauge if your partner is emotionally intelligent enough to match where you're also at in your life because that's a very elusive hard by going outside of your own definition you're the what you think is emotionally intelligent may not be his vocabulary and maybe the day something happens to you he will show up and he'll deliver and he'll be there for you without many words we have many vocabularies words is one and we are girls are often more trained to be in verbal vocabulary we talk you know partly because we've been taught to distrust our bodies so we became masters of talk intimacy but intimacy can be experienced in a lot of different ways that don't involve the only words and by the way we talk with our bodies for 18 months before we utter the first word so our mother tongue is often physical emotional intelligence and intellectual compatibility different things you know um if you if it's very very important for you to be with someone with whom you can have these meaty conversations know that up front know that up front if you say discussing what how i should handle my mother is not something that i do talk about with my boyfriend because i don't think that that his advice then go to your girlfriends do not think that one person can give you what an entire village should provide.

47:34A boyfriend is wanting a boyfriend. A girlfriend, if you're a girl, is wanting a girlfriend. We need a community. You need to diversify. Better relationships, stronger relationships are often diversified. You know exactly. When I have this kind of issue or this kind of interest, that's not where I go. I have my friends with whom I share those things. And I have my friends with whom I talk about those things. That is not what I do with my partner. And that is okay. It's okay. Okay. Let's talk about cheating. We're back, girl. Let's get into cheating. Everyone's oh so favorite topic. That's right.

48:14When there is infidelity, I think as of recent, and because this didn't obviously used to be it like, you know in in previous generations but there is an expectation now it feels that the relationship has to end if there is infidelity especially when the woman is cheated on there's a lot of shame from other women being like you have to leave you don't respect yourself get the fuck out of that relationship why do you think there is so much shame on a person staying and should there be that level of shame? I love the question because it is probably one of the most important changes that took place between your grandmother and you.

48:56When marriage was a one-stop enterprise from which you could not get out, then you had no choice but staying. everything changed with divorce with the democratization of divorce with no-fold divorce and with women being in the workforce so that they can actually take care of themselves and not worry about the destitution and the loss of their children and now that you can leave you should go. If you stay, it becomes a sign of no self-esteem, no self-confidence, weakness, the opposite of what it used to be. The fact that you actually can forgive or can rebuild or that not every infidelity is actually a sign that your relationship is over and that staying and reconnecting and rebuilding the trust is actually a sign of strength rather than weakness has really become a challenge.

49:57And the younger you go, the more this takes place. This is the belief system of the moment. And why do you think, although I feel like this is a very obvious question, I just have to ask you because I want your opinion. Why do you think women disproportionately bear the shame of staying? Because there are men who stay after getting cheated on, you know? Yes. That is very cultural. when I work in Mexico or anywhere south of the border that is not the case you only know it more from the women you know when a woman stays and is quiet about it you may be sure that the silence of the man is even bigger what kind of a man are you that you would stay with a woman nobody says what kind of a woman are you we just say what kind of a low self-esteem woman are you but we don't challenge the whole constitutional element called woman.

50:53We just think about her strength of character. With him, we say, what kind of a man are you that you let your wife, you couldn't control your wife, do those things and you still choose to be with her. You're not a real man. So it's misleading to think that the pressure is more on women. The pressure is more overtly on women, But that pressure is usually even bigger on men. Right, because it's emasculating. Yes. What conversations do you think need to take place in order to make the relationship work after someone has cheated? Because I know you meet with couples and you do help repair relationships.

51:37So I spent 10 years studying infidelity, wrote state of affairs about it, and began to really, I have a list of 150 questions really that it wasn't just one but I think the most important set of questions come from this distinction try not to go for the facts where were you when did you do it how often did you do it did you do it standing did you do it lying did you keep your clothes on did you bring them to the house did you do don't go for the meaning what did it mean for you? Why do you think you did this? And what were you thinking about us as this was happening? And do you want me to forgive you?

52:23Or do you think I actually would be more respected by you if I didn't forgive you? Do you think you are forgivable? Would you have accepted something like that from me? Go for the investigative questions rather than the detective questions. Right. For the meaning, not the fact. For the meaning, not the fact. Because it's in the meaning that you will also understand, did it have anything to do with you or with your relationship? Or did it have absolutely nothing to do with you, which is hard to believe, but is actually a lot of the time the case. Really? It has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the fact that I felt lousy about myself, that I felt lonely, that I didn't really feel like you were giving me enough attention or that I thought, you know, suddenly somebody is laughing at my jokes again.

53:07You know, but is that then inadvertently kind of about the other person? And like, what drives someone to cheat? Let me tell you in one sentence that to me became a real, sometimes people go to look for the gaze of another, not because they're looking for another partner, but they're looking for another self. Not that they want to leave the person that they are with, but they want to leave the person that they have themselves become. Oh, shit. What they're dealing with is their depression, is their loss, is their grief, is their aging, is their whatever issues inside is the way that they lost themselves into, you know, they forgot who they are and all of that.

54:00And that's what they are reclaiming. And their sense is that they can't reclaim it in the same place where they lost it. But it's not the other person's fault that they lost any of it. It's also so hard, though, because you're like, yes it may not be about you but it impacts you obviously so deeply and it's almost i wonder for people have you found when you're in these moments and you're talking to these couples is it more infuriating for the partner that got cheated on to be like that's i didn't do like this is all about you i couldn't like it wasn't even because like i wasn't like having enough sex with you like there's nothing i can change you just were going to do this no matter what we're into women you were into like which is easier for someone to depends who so i think the most important piece that you're saying here is that every thinking about infidelity in a relationship is a dual perspective what it meant to you and what it did to me so the first thing in phase one is i need you to know what it did to me you don't go instantly for what it meant what it did to me how you hurt me how you deceived me how you lied to me, how you betrayed me, how you were duplicitous, all of that.

55:08And do you feel bad about that? Do you experience guilt or remorse? If I don't get that, there's nowhere to start. Even if you had good reasons for doing what you did, you need to be able to know what it meant, what you did to me with it, especially if it has nothing to do with me, even more so. Do you find when you've done couples therapy that the person who cheated is usually capable of meeting the partner there? If they don't, then you have a bad, that's a bad sign. If they don't and if they only justify and they, you know, but those are also people who typically will say it's because of you.

55:45You're like, there's patterns here. You know, that kind of goes together. So generally, I give you an out because I'm telling you, even if you had good reasons and you don't feel guilty about what you did, you need to be able to feel guilty for what it did to your partner. Have empathy. Have empathy and take responsibility. It's both. It's always the empathy and the accountability. It's two parts. And then, what are you doing to give value back to your relationship? You now have to prove to your partner because a betrayal is a devaluation of the other person. I didn't think of you. I didn't care about what it would do to you.

56:28I put myself first. It's all of that. What are you doing now to redeem the relationship? And that's on you. And that one of the main ways you do it is that instead of waiting for me to ask you another question, did you, did you come to this restaurant? Did you take her here? Did you go there? You are the one who say, when we pass in front of the restaurant and we drive there and you say, we didn't come here and you preempt me because what you think is that all my questions is because I want to make your life difficult. That's not the case. I question you a hundred times the same question because what you did has just shattered my reality.

57:07And I don't trust myself anymore because I thought I knew my reality. And now I think that everything I thought was real was actually possibly not. So I come back to ask you the same thing because I need to kind of reconstitute my reality. That's what I'm doing with you. It's like must be so hard to because I could see the person that cheated wants to move forward. but the other person is like, I need you to know I'm actually, if I'm deciding to move forward, I'm not actually trying to hold you against the fire forever of being like, did you come to this restaurant? But I would love if you could meet me there and trying to just fill in the gaps for me so I don't have all these question marks.

57:44If you think of it at that moment and you tell me, then I learned to trust you again. That's actually where the trust gets rebuilt because now I'm not thinking that I'm the only one who cares about what happened. I'm the only one who's hurt. I'm the only one who thinks that we've just taken a big hit in our relationship. I know you're in it with me. And that allows me to then think about something else. Even as uncomfortable as the brutal honesty can be from the person who cheated, that is the beginning of repair. Sometimes. But sometimes before you ask a question, and this I'm going to say to all our viewers here, Ask yourself, do you want to know the answer to your question?

58:26Or do you want your partner to know that you have the question? Give me an example. Did you fall in love with her? Did you think about leaving me? Did you hope I would never find out? Wait, what if we do want to know those questions? I'm like, did he? Well, that's the thing. Do you want to know the answer to your question? because then you have to deal with the consequences of knowing. I think I would want to know if someone had fallen in love. If my husband cheated on me and I think I would need to know, like, are you in love with her? Because then like we have to be done, right? Go be with her.

59:03That's you. Right. Some people don't want to know. But another person in very different set of circumstances. I would ask. Yes. I would need that. Fair enough. Because that for me would just be like. But you just answered me. I need to know because I'm prepared to deal with the consequences of knowing. I see. And some people would be like, I don't want to know because no matter the answer, I'm willing to work through this. I just did an episode on my podcast, a 25-year affair. He has. 25 years? Yeah. So that's not necessarily for our viewers here, but it is maybe your parents. Oh, shit. And she is clear that she doesn't want to leave because she's also very clear that they actually had a very good marriage throughout those 25 years and that is true too and things are not so black and white and it is not my job to tell this person nor any friend's job to tell this person and talk about the shame because 25 years you have a lot the fact she doesn't want the family to know because she doesn't want them to pity her for staying with him and she doesn't want them to be angry at him because then she can't love him if they're all despising him so she's not carrying the secret about the secret right and the shame it that's so and we don't have we can't be so judgmental about that no we can't it's like i've had people on the show before that have come on and talked about staying after cheating and the way the internet has just like torn these women apart and it's like but it's their life and everyone's like well you don't respect yourself and you and it's like but do you know that do you really you don't know that this person may have done so much work within that relationship to repair it like why are you so triggered it's her life look everything on where should we begin was to say to people, we don't really know what's happening in the private lives of other couples.

1:01:02And it's very easy these days, because you can anonymously state your opinions on every platform you want without any consequence. Is there, Esther, a timeline in terms as a couple therapist that you're like repair should fall within a little bit of this timeline if not like we you can't keep going back and forth of like you cheated I need these answers and we're five years down the line or can it just be forever no no I think I think yeah you can be forever but you will be stuck in a marital cell you know or a relational cell of any sort no I think that sometimes if If you can't accept it, if you can't learn to live with it, if you can't find a place for it in your life, then you may need to make a decision.

1:01:57Or if you live with someone and you've done all the repair and all the showing up that was necessary and your partner is still coming back to you every day, every time you're five minutes late, you may need to think about that. What do you want to do? So, no, I don't think people need to remain stuck in misery. you know and in blame cycles all the time but at the same time for some people they still prefer that you know and um and you make sense of it you understand why they prefer that you understand the stories and the childhoods they've had etc um it's it's very important for us not to become the public square that oozes with judgment about as if we know when we don't.

1:02:52We don't know if people are also taking care of elderly or sick children or their other reasons. I love that too, just even to close out on that cheating chapter for anyone listening. like we all have those people in our life that whether it's your sister or your friend or whoever that stays there is understandably a anger within you as someone who loves them because you are protective of them and you you think I want better for them but again we all know the extreme level of intricate detail that goes into why we are who we are that no one will ever understand even if you explain so many times like you're living in your own body with your own trauma and your own history and so as much as you say you want better for them if they genuinely are saying to you this is what they want at some capacity you have to also relinquish control of trying to dictate other people's lives because what does it affect you so there are two parts of the what they want that I think are often not spoken up.

1:04:03It's one thing to think you are not trustworthy, but it's another thing to doubt your own self-trust, your own self-confidence. And the idea that you could have made a bad decision, that you made a bad choice, that the deal, the bargain that you struck with yourself, that you were going to be with somebody who would never do such a thing to you, that you purposefully didn't stay with the person with whom you had much more passion and much more intensity. You chose someone who was safe and stable and you thought that person will never cheat on me. My ex did that. And then this person does it. And then you have to deal with your own reckoning.

1:04:42So that's one. The second one is that sometimes you stay not because you're weak and because you let the other person roll all over you, but because you're actually silently admitting to yourself that you know that you contributed in some way too. I mean, the loneliness is one of the most important reasons why people see connection elsewhere.

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1:07:30My family and I would eat our favorite flavors. I'm obsessed with the Cherry Dark Chocolate Bar. Those flavors together, I couldn't be happier. I'm going to watch my favorite TV shows and I'm going to be eating that. Boom, done. Take your sweet time. That's Daz, available at retailers nationwide. Let's talk about intimacy. What do you do? Because I truly believe this is one of the biggest most prominent issues in every single relationship not every single but a majority is like when you and your partner have different ideas of intimacy of how much you want it of how often like physical intimacy physical intimacy like touch affection touch affection sex like what do you do when you're on different pages in a relationship with that?

1:08:24I think that the interesting thing is that people seem to be talking about sex with everybody, but the least is with the person they're actually having sex with. And in the beginning, you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to talk about it. What's the, you know, and then you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to jinx it. And then you don't want to talk about it because you didn't talk about it before. And then, I mean, it's just like, you know, and then you only talk about it when there is crisis. for a lot of people in by the way connecting it to the previous question infidelity becomes the moment where people start to talk about a lot of things that they put under the rug for a long time and finally you know the shit hits the fence so now we start to discuss all our grievances our resentments our longings our disappointments our unfulfilled needs etc etc and it's like had you talked about that no maybe it wouldn't have gotten there no and monogamy and all of those issues it's like you know um it and and more so in straight couples actually you know especially around monogamy and questions like that and exclusion and boundaries and all of that so then there is what do we talk about what is candid communication you know around physicality it's even i touch you do you like it i said just so you twitch you know do you want me to continue shall i stop instead of guessing they seem to like it they don't seem to like it i don't know you know i do they don't respond is it because of me is it because they're tired is it big you know okay i won't do it anymore

1:10:03ask check in talk sometimes you may get unpleasant answers that's okay So that's the first thing. Then you have discrepancy of desire. You know, what happened there? I think that there is a big difference between sex and eroticism. Between doing the act for which you may do a lot and feel very little. And doing very little for which you may feel a lot, which is the erotic that involves your imagination, touch, meaning. But why the experience of it rather than just the act of it? it's not just sex is not just something you do it's a place you go it's where a lot of things happen there so what happens to you that's a question where do you go why do you hold back what ignites you what blocks you is it on your mind is it not on your mind is there something that has been unpleasant that you've never talked about does it hurt and you never say anything in order to want sex it needs to be sex that is worth wanting and many times women girls wanted less not because they're less interested in it but because it's not the sex that they want it's not what they're looking forward to so how much are you able to express that sometimes you do it in writing sometimes you do it by playing a game sometimes you there are lots of ways that people learn to become more at ease talking about the very topic that they spend their entire childhood learning not to talk about.

1:11:38I mean, let's be facing that too. You take a subject on which that has constantly been hidden and suddenly you need to be able to be all eloquent about. So that's not so easy. It's difficult. It's so difficult. And that's such a great point, even to just ease all of our minds. Like I understand that it is sometimes really hard and awkward and to talk about it with your partner because sometimes from what I've experienced in the past and what people have written into me is like it just feels like if I approach this it's going to come off like I'm not happy and then it's going to be so awkward the next time we go to have sex because he's just going to be thinking about like well you literally just complained that you're like not enjoying it and it's like no the way that you approach the conversation can dictate so much of how it goes.

1:12:27The way you do it, you know, I wrote Mating in Captivity 20 years ago, all about what is desire in relationship? How do we sustain it? Then I did the desire bundle. It's a whole course with these kinds of questions. And one of the things I understood is one of the main shifts that we as women need to do is instead of saying I don't enjoy it is to say, I would enjoy it a lot more if I very much like when you do, and I would love it if you did more. Go with what you ask for. Women have always learned to say what they don't like when it comes to sex. They have not been necessarily trained to actually speak about their wishes, their needs, their preferences, their likes.

1:13:10Go to your partner, male, female them, and say, you know, I like when, I would love if, it would please me a lot if you could do that. That's a way to not have the other person the next time saying, oh shit, I don't want to approach you because you've just told me that you really don't like. You know, and now I've lost my entire sense of confidence. I thought you liked it. Because you faked it. I love that so much too, because I think it's very relatable for anyone listening where you're in a situation where you become so comfortable with your partner in every aspect of life and then this thing over here that's one of the most important aspects of your relationship you never talk about so then it does get awkward because the person that's holding on to not being as fulfilled by it i understandably the other person's like how long have you been feeling this way like holy shit right what did i not know yeah how did i miss it you know you that's a form of lying too sometimes by the way that is a betrayal too for six years you haven't said a thing to me because what is what what are they supposed to do you've been fantasizing about someone else or about or you've been not liking it and and and make and pretending to me that sometimes hurts no less than you've been because you've been elsewhere whether you've been elsewhere alone or you've been elsewhere.

1:14:32I feel like you have just, you know, I thought I was with you in this and I've just discovered that I was by myself. Let's talk about codependency. Yeah. When you're in a serious relationship, understandably, your lives become fused together, right? You do so many things together. You're living together most of the time. What are some signs, though, that you have gotten yourself into a situation that is fully codependent? When you are cold, I'm not instantly cold. You've got your own body temperature. And I can say, oh, that's interesting. I can't say, how can you be cold? I'm not cold. Why should you be cold?

1:15:20I'm the thermometer. When you're hungry, I'm not immediately hungry. when you're tired or when i'm tired you're not instantly tired we have a different system but somehow when you're upset or when you're sad or when you're anxious or worried that instantly makes me anxious because your feelings are my feelings if you're unhappy that makes me unhappy or i think that you're unhappy because it's me what did i do what did i do what's wrong so i use the temperature and the hunger and the tiredness because people immediately understand it when it's physical they understand where i stop and where you start we are two separate people we are close we are not fused we are not that enmeshed that what happens to me happens to you but when it comes to the emotional level for many of us that is not how we grew up either We grew up with somebody who wanted their feelings to become our feelings, their needs to become our needs.

1:16:27And so we have not known where to know where is the line where I stop and you start. That's where codependency lives. If someone is sitting here being like, you know what, Esther, there's a chance. There is a really good chance that I am in a codependent relationship. And I do like love my partner. And I think we've just like fallen into this. it's really it's not toxic by choice like it just happened what are some steps that you can take within your relationship to reconnect with yourself and build back your individual identity while still remaining in a relationship i think the first thing you do uh is what belongs to you and what belongs to them don't personalize it's a strange thing it's what you said before you know Somehow, sometimes it's even worse if it has nothing to do with you.

1:17:22It's like, I would rather be part of a bad story than not be part of the story at all. Cast me, please. That's like literally the entire internet. They're like, this isn't my life. This isn't my situation, but I'm in it. And it's like, wait, what? You know, it's like, it's not your story. And you know sometimes what it means because a friend can tell you something and you don't instantly think it's you. Why do people personalize it though? because there are only two relationships that really mirror each other. The one you had with your family or your original caretakers, caregivers, and the one you have in your romantic intimacies.

1:17:59Those two match. People can tell you, I don't have this with any of my friends, and I believe them. You don't, I'm sure. You know to maintain that differentiation is what we call this. That there are two people here, and when one person feels something, the other person can feel for them, but they're not feeling the same thing as them. Esther, I could talk to you for 10 hours. I am so happy that you came today because I needed, and I know the daddy gang needed all of this. I think even from the beginning. You still called them the daddy gang. Daddy gang. Oh, they're still the daddy gang girl. I remember the first time you told me that.

1:18:37Oh man, I remember the first time you said it and you were like, daddy gang, listen to me. And I was like, Esther, Perel, just acknowledge the daddy gang. that was oh my that was everything and it still is um I am gonna go back and listen to this and like take notes I have so many thoughts I have so many episodes I want to make from this episode um you're so wise and you're so brilliant and you're so warm and generous with your time and I just can't thank you enough for taking your time because I know you're so busy to like sit down with me and give us and impart all of your wisdom on the daddy gang and myself I care about it.

1:19:14And I see people struggling more and more. And I also know that there is nothing that matters more in our lives. You know, it's like you have daddy gang, I have the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships. And everything else follows from there. I can't thank you enough. It's a pleasure to be here. We can do another episode soon. We have so many topics we could have covered. I'm like, I know we went even for longer than I expected, but thank you, thank you, thank you. And congrats on all of your success. I love just watching you and the wisdom and all the things that you have given to society truly.

1:19:56And thank you. Thank you for always coming and stopping by and giving me your time. Anytime.

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