Gayle King: He Cheated with My Close Friend

26:18I know. And I know I just I don't want to speak for you, but like, tell me how that feels when you guys have had to handle those headlines, handle those rumors, handle that speculation. tell me? Well, I'll tell you this. It used to really bother me. I was recently divorced and the National Enquirer did a story about that's the reason for the divorce because they're secretly gay. Number one, if we were gay, we would tell you because believe me, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just, I prefer a man. I prefer a man. So we would tell you. And then I would say to her, you've got to say something on your show because it's hard enough for me to get a date on a Saturday night.

26:58And now people think I'm a lesbian. You've got to say something. And she said, no, we should just leave it be. I said, no, you've got to say, she said, no, just leave it alone. Leave it alone. So, well, that's fine for you to say you have somebody I don't. So it used to really bother me. And now even today, there are still people that say, well, you know, the truth is I don't care. I've now gotten to the point in my life that very few things get to me because, Because, you know, when you go on social media, it is an accelerator on hate. As long as I feel good about what I'm doing, the people I respect and trust are OK with it, who will say, well, mom, maybe you shouldn't have done that or somebody will somebody whose opinion I value.

27:40Otherwise, you'll drive yourself nuts. So now I really don't care. I am sorry, though, that you have to deal with that, because I also just feel like that is a clear indicator. The people who are saying that there's two options. Number one, they have never had a genuine, gorgeous female friendship in their life. But do you know what I mean? Yes, I do know. And then the other one is, again, it's for the salaciousness and it's so sexist and it's so, it's just horrible that they put you in that position. But it is also a weird thing. And again, I guess we always should just listen to Oprah, but it's like when to speak up and when not to, right?

28:14And that's a hard thing that I'm sure you've had to navigate in your career because in that moment, I agree. You'd be like, hey, guys, like. Say something. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes when the noise gets too much, I feel at least let me say my piece, whether it's about that or something else, just so I'm on the record of it. But most of the time, I just I'm not going to you know, there have been news stories and they say TMZ is out front. Do you want to go out the back door? I go, no, I don't. I don't want to look like I'm some criminal with my thing over my head. So my thing is always be prepared. Sometimes you can just say, you know what, I don't want to talk about that or I don't have anything to say or good to see you.

28:54But I don't want to look like I'm running from something when I know I haven't done anything wrong. I think it's a great point.

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32:34I'm shopping away, okay? That can be your life too. Build your store, own your audience, and create something that lasts. Start now at shopify.com slash daddy. Can I ask you a couple questions about friendship for our listeners today? Yes, yes, yes. There is a really big conversation online, especially around women right now, about honesty and advice in friendship. And I would love your take. At what point do you think being brutally honest can become too much? And like, is there a line you can cross with friendship? I think it depends on the friend. I think it depends on the friend. So I would tell if it's somebody I was really close to, if I'm not so close, I'm staying out of it.

33:18So it really does depend on the type of friendship that you have. I used to joke with Oprah all the time when people said, you know, what would you do if you caught Gail and Stedman in bed together? Because I did catch a friend in bed with my husband. What would you do? And I always say to her, you shouldn't even be mad. You should just say, oh, I can tell you're having a breakdown. Let me get you to the hospital. I can tell there's something very wrong. This is not you. You're having a breakdown. So here, hon, let me take you and let's go to the hospital together to get you some help. Because I would have lost my friggin' mind.

33:52There are some lines you just don't cross. Right. You're like, no, I would have to be admitted because there's just no way. I done lost my mind. Yes. Okay. That's good. Has being radically honest in a friendship ever backfired on you? Not a friendship that mattered. That's the difference, Alex. Not a friendship that mattered. And I also think kind of what you said like there it also depends on the friend and it's very important also your delivery like yes you need to read where the friend is at if you know they just went through this horrible thing and you know she needs to break up with the boyfriend but she's not ready yet you going in and being like he you have to dump your not shit boyfriend like you're just pouring salt in the wound right it has to be a very concerted effort to be thoughtful about the way that you're approaching it and how you're delivering this to them because they're clearly the ones that are not in a positive situation right now.

34:44Exactly right. And you say, you know, please take this in the spirit in which it's intended. And there's a difference between being radically honest and being cruel. Such a good point. And that just takes reading the room and being a good person to know when to go in and be honest. Yes, yes, yes. I know Oprah had an opinion on your ex-husband. Oh, Lord. Yes, she did. I want to talk a little bit more about that marriage. Yes. I know because you just mentioned infidelity was one of the major reasons that it ended. And I want to get to that. But first, before the affair, how were you feeling about that relationship?

35:20Like, were you happy? It's a good question. I was happy. And you know how they say the wife always knows? I swear to God, I did not. I did not. And people say, well, of course you know. No, I really didn't. Now, it's not like we hadn't had arguments or anything, but I didn't think that it was in such disrepair that he was boinking around. I did not. I did not think that. When, if you were happy, do you think it shifted for you? Well, I mean, you know, hindsight is always 20-20. I always say if I was writing a book, the first line in my book would be, whack, the sound of a tennis ball. And she said, nice shot, Bill.

35:59And the way she said it, there was such an intimacy in her voice that I had a, the hair stood up on the back of my neck and I thought, why am I feeling that way? It was weird. Why am I, because she was married too. We were married. We both had two little kids. So our kids were friends. The spouses were friends. But there was something about the way she said, nice shot, Bill. Then I looked and I thought, did I see them looking at each other? And when I asked him in the car, what are you talking about? They try to gaslight you, by the way. What are you talking about? And so he goes, absolutely not.

36:37So I did think, oh, you're just overreacting to what? But I did have a visceral reaction to that. That said, I still didn't think anything. And Oprah always says, you know, sometimes you get a whisper. And then when you ignore the whisper, then it becomes a little pebble. And then you ignore the pebble. And next thing you know, it keeps going. And then you have a full-blown catastrophe. Mine was I came home and caught him. I wasn't due home. But, you know, people say, the therapist said, it probably had to be that extreme for you to believe it. Because if you had caught them and they weren't buck naked, Alex, in my frigging towel, if you hadn't seen it, he might have said, oh, she was just over here.

37:20We were, you know, we were. Working on something. Yes, working on something. Okay, wait. Can you take me to that day? Like, how did you walk in on that? Well, this was back in the day when you would go. I used to drive myself to the airport then, Alex. Yes, you did. Yes, you did, Ms. Kale King. Before Uber and Lyft and when you call it a car service. But I drove myself to the airport and the airline would call you to say, listen, your flight has been canceled, but if you get on the next one, you can get out of there. So I was in D.C. and Kirby and Will were little. They were like two and three at the time.

37:57So I said, guys, we got to hurry go. I'd driven myself to the airport. So I didn't even have time to call and say, look, the flight was da-da-da-da-da. I'm coming home. I didn't have time to do any of that. We jumped in, got to the airport, got in the car, came home. And the alarm was set, which I thought, that's strange. Because you're in here by yourself. You're a big-ass, grown-ass man. He never sets the alarm. And next thing I know, he comes flying out of the room, and he's got a towel on. He goes, you can't come in. What do you mean, I can't come in? What are you talking about? He goes, you can't come here.

38:32Come in. Someone's here. I go, someone like who? There's nobody here. I mean, I was so oblivious. There's nobody here. Get out of the way, Billy. There's nobody here. He goes, really, you can't come in. And so I start searching the house because I didn't believe him. I didn't believe him. I get down and there they are. Or there she is cowering behind the door in my towel, Alex. It was a nice bath sheet. In my towel. In my towel. What did you say? I said, I can't believe that you are here and that you are doing this. I can't believe that you were doing this. She was your friend. Yes. And I even said, I thought we were friends.

39:12It sounded so pitiful. I thought we were friends. And so your kids were in the house. How did you manage? Well, I had a nanny. I had a nanny. She was from Jamaica. And I did leave the kids outside because he was so adamant. You know, they're little toddlers. So Verge is with the kids. And I said, Virge, take the children and go to the back room, go to the back room and shut the door. And she said, what is it? What is this, mom? What is it? I said, so-and-so is here. Let's give her a nice name. What's a good name? Casey. Yeah, Casey is here. And so she goes, and I said, and they're naked. Now, Virge is an old Jamaican woman.

39:54She goes, Lord of his mercy, mom. Lord of his mercy. Lord of his mercy. Oh, mom, she peed in your toilet, mom. I go, Virg, I don't need that right now. I don't need that right now. Just take the kids and just go in the back room and shut the door. So I went back and they said, Mom, is Aunt Casey here? Because they could hear I said her name. Is Aunt Casey here? I went, no, no, no, she's not here. No, no, no, she's not here. Just stay back here. Now, when I opened the door, the alarm went off. And, you know, if you don't shut it off in time, the police come. Oh, no. So the police came. Gail, the police came and they said, hey, oh my God, it's Gail King.

40:36I was a local news anchor. So I was well known in the local community. Hey, it's Gail King. Are you okay? I go, yeah. You know, I was coming in. I didn't set off the alarm in time. I'm so sorry. And they said, could I get your autograph? And I'm just thinking, yeah, sure, sure, sure. I wanted to say, could you take out the trash? But I didn't, but I didn't. And I didn't want them to know because it's a type of thing that they screw up, but you're thinking, I don't want anybody to know when I haven't done anything wrong. I just wanted to get them in and out as quickly as possible. That was not a good night.

41:09No, Gail. But how do you think, because sadly, I can imagine there are people actually watching that have gone through something like this. How did you stay so composed during that moment? Well, because I was thinking the kids are here. I don't want anybody to know that was my main thought I don't want anybody to know that would not happen to me today it would be like get this da da da da and take her da da da da but you know I kept thinking I don't want it to be a scene because they're little they know this person um and you just my main thing was how do I which is what I do about most things how do I handle this situation in this moment.

41:52It was only later. So the first thing I do, and she was married, and I said, I'm calling her husband. And he goes, don't call because they have a good marriage. They have a good marriage. The girl's pajama bottoms are in my bed. They have a good marriage. Don't call, don't call. Where does he think she is? He thinks that she's away at a conference or something. And so he said, please don't call. So he goes, I'm going to take her to the train station. so her husband can pick her up so he won't know. So they left and went to the train station. I called Oprah. Oprah goes, wait, let me get this straight.

42:28He left you there alone and went with her? I know your mouth is open. And she said, oh, girl, you don't even know how bad this is. And I'm going, yeah, but he said they had a good marriage. I mean, it's stupid. Oprah, I love having you as a friend, but let's pretend we're not in an interview mode right now because that's a really good point, but I don't want to hear that right now. Oprah, you're like, oh, it is such a good point. It was a good point. It is a good point. But at the time, I couldn't hear it, though, Alex. I swear to you, I couldn't hear it. Of course. Because I'm thinking, well, God, I don't want to mess up everybody's life.

42:59So she said, you don't even know how bad this is. So you never called the husband? No. Did the husband ever find out? No, I called after talking to Oprah two hours later. Was she your first call? Oh, yeah. She was definitely my first. I didn't tell my mom. I'm close to my mom at the time. My mom is no longer with us. I was very close to my mom. I talk to my mom every single day, twice a day, because I didn't want anybody to know. I've got three sisters, didn't tell them. The only person I told was Oprah, the only person. And then she said, well, Kim, call her husband. I go, you think I should call?

43:30Yes, call. Now, by now, it's been two hours. So I call him and he's, you know what he said? He said, she told me you would be calling. she said that you came home early unexpected and you draw you draw you drew the wrong conclusion and she told me you would call and say that you thought they were having an affair masterful isn't that masterful masterful so so i'm expecting this call so he said to me and and they were both doctors psychologists as another layer um he said to me you are delusional and out of touch with reality, and I suggest you get some help. Well, then I said, okay, you think I should get some help?

44:17Does your wife have a pink satin pajama top? Does she have some green mint panties that go with that? And oh, by the way, give me a guy's name. Richard. By the way, Richard, there are semen stains in my bed. So am I delusional and out of touch with reality and then i said go fuck yourself and i hung up the telephone i know wasn't i strong i said go fuck yourself wasn't that good of me yeah at first but it took but it took over two hours and oprah saying are you crazy are you fucking nuts call him i went no i can he said she goes what he said call him to get though that met with the delusion i know i'm delusional and out of touch with reality.

45:06Yes. The rage I would have felt of like, I'm the fucking deletion woman. God, I haven't told all these details. This is not good. This is good. This is not good. This is call her daddy, Gail. The girls are going to love you. This is not good. They're taking notes right now being like... No, they're going to think she's... But I cry for that girl. No, I know. I cry for that girl. Gail, what's so frustrating but also why I do love doing this is like as women, we don't all have an Oprah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot. Shouldn't we have common sense? Yes. But in those moments, I'm sorry. But when a man is calling you and saying you're fucking delusional and out of touch with reality and you should get professional help at that part.

45:48Right. Right. And he's the professional. actually. You're like, aren't you the professional? Emotions sometimes can take over and you forget about common sense and you're in that moment. And then you can be like, am I the delusional one? Or, or, oh my gosh, you feel so isolated because they're all on the same team and you're alone. So many women go through that feeling and then you're left with, maybe it is my fault. And so it's like, when we talk about these things, it is empowering to be like, no, no, no, no. You saw what you saw you did nothing wrong yeah I did see what I saw and so many times somehow the woman who walks in and see it's like you are made to feel like the crazy person and it's like how the fuck did we get here exactly right you know but what's interesting when you have two children when you have children if I hadn't had children it would have been game over but but we went to counseling tried to work it out actually got divorced and got back together we actually got divorced and got back together.

46:44And then I realized he hadn't really changed, but I was turning into such a shrew. I would be out in the garage feeling the hood of the car to see if it was warm. I was going through his phone and I thought, I don't want to live like this. You're losing yourself. Only to find out he was cheating again. He was cheating again. But now I had to go back with him because he was crying. He was apologizing. And I said, but now he'll be with somebody else and then he'll be all better. And then she'll get an Oprah goes, no, he ain't changed. I go, yes. I said, Oprah, you don't understand because you don't have children.

47:15He was on his knees and he was crying. She goes, yeah, okay. She got so sick of hearing. She goes, please go back with him. Please. I will drive the moving band. Please. That's when you realize you're telling people too much. Yeah. Oprah's like, honestly, sure. Go have your happy life with this man. Call me when he does something again. That's so stupid. I know she wanted to say shut the fuck to her credit. She never did. If you ask her now, she goes, I feel like I went through that fucking divorce. It was exhausting. But now, I just saw him. I just saw him yesterday because my grandchild's christening.

47:49I just saw him. He ain't looking so good. He has a new girlfriend. But I am in such a good place that at the weddings and christenings, I'm like, can I get you anything? Him and the girlfriend. She seems very nice and lovely. Can I get you guys anything? I'm so glad you came. It's good to see you. But that only comes with time. Before somebody would say, how are you? I go, you know what happened to me? Then you see their eyes glaze over and you go, I just wanted to say hello, lady. Oh, I'm not okay. You're like, and another thing. And they're like, holy shit. Then you realize nobody wants to hear it.

48:22And the kids love their dad. The dad loves the kids. So you got to figure out a way to navigate it. Well, and I think what's so real, what you're saying, Gail, too, is what you're describing is what you literally see in the movies. Yes. You had one of those. It's a movie. Literally a movie. Like you had one of those situations happen to you that was so disorienting, so unreal, so grand. So unwell. Unwell to the nth degree. So like all of it, so dysregulating, all of it. That then you can still have the feelings toward what that happened to you as a human being. Anyone would be fucked up from that for a second, right?

49:04Or a long time. and you can also look at the person and move forward and find your closure but it doesn't take away from the fact that you still had to walk in with two children sitting outside and see the person that you were in love with and you had committed your life to and you had gotten married to ruining everything let me tell you another layer since we're just here chatting when i said to her i can't believe you're doing this he said she said to me he doesn't even love you he's only with you for the children and his lifestyle because I was a big-time anchor I was doing very well he was he was I was paying for him to go to Yale Law School very smart guy very very smart guy he doesn't even love you and then what do I do I go is that true I know couldn't you cry for her I could cry for I could cry for her but I also relate to her because I've been her before too we've all been there where it's like where someone cheated I've I've been cheated on.

50:02Yes. And I would catch them. I caught him through technology. I like that. I caught him through technology. I went old school. Yes. And unfortunately, I also saw him naked in the technology. But that moment, I think we can all relate to something just happens within you as a woman where you're just like, oh, my God, like, did I do something wrong? could I have been better? And there's like a weird thing where you're willing to fight for it because you need a second to regulate and you don't even know why you're fighting for it. And now we can look back with perspective as grown women to be like, I say, thank you, black baby Jesus for saving me.

50:45Cause I'm very glad. I mean, I just said, imagine, you know, and I, I never bad mouth them to the children. They were young when they became teenagers and I told them the truth, but I would never badmouth them. Never. And I just said, I'm just so, I wouldn't have this life, honestly. I would not be at CBS. I would have still probably, because I love my job. I love being a local anchor in Connecticut. I had a great career, was very happy there. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today. I was at Sirius XM where you are today. I had a show there that I loved. I wouldn't be at Oprah Daily. I wouldn't be at CBS.

51:22So many things. Happened because you got. But did you ever find out how long they had been together? Well, he said that it wasn't long. I never did. But I don't believe anything he says. You know, because at one point this. God, the more I think about this. Because you know what I said? I said, couldn't y 'all go to a hotel? He said that got expensive. So when you say how long, I don't know. I don't know. Gail. See, keep in mind, I was gone all weekend. I know. Gail. I can't believe the shit he said to me. I can't. I mean, from the betrayal of a woman looking at you saying, he never loved you.

52:03He doesn't love you. That is like. No, she said he doesn't love you. He doesn't love you. He might have. I think he loved me in the beginning. Yeah. But he doesn't even love you. He's here for the lifestyle. We had a nice lifestyle. And the children. And you almost want to say to that person, as if you being here naked right now. I know. Didn't just kill me. I know. You want to kill me even more by saying that? Shouldn't you be saying I'm sorry? I'm sorry. Yes, I know. I know. But it's the gaslighting. But there again, there again, I got to thank Oprah for this. She said, you know what? The fact that she could talk to you that way in front of him, imagine what he has said to her about you.

52:40God, she's good. Isn't that good? God, she's good. That's why she's the best. Because I hadn't thought of that. She goes, just the fact that she felt she felt comfortable enough in your house, buck naked with your towel, that she could put you down in front of him and he didn't defend you. Imagine what he has told her about you. Isn't that good? And I go, I haven't thought about that. We're all like, damn, Oprah. We didn't think about that one either. Shit, you're good. Oh, wow. She's good. Right. The disrespect. Yes. Is on another. You're right. She should have been screaming. I'm so sorry. That's what she said.

53:15You don't even realize how bad this is. And so she said, listen, I will send, because like I said, she's always had more money than me. She goes, I will send you tickets. You, Kirby and Will, come to Chicago. Just come, just get on a plane and leave. Just come. And I said, but I have the Greater Hartford Open and I'm live at five o 'clock tomorrow. I can't leave. she goes the what what the fuck is that i go it's a big golf tournament here that's very important she's like what the fuck about that gail she goes i will send you guys tickets i will send you three tickets gail your head has been blown off you need to get on a plane and you need to come here and i go i can't i can't i have the great i mean i look at it now and it's just so stupid you know though also and and to her credit and i i love that you said she never said what the fuck are you doing yeah no talking now to everyone who has been that friend who you watch your friend get cheated on and stay with the person there is a level of really really just large frustration that can come with being that friend that you're like i'm trying to hold it down for you yes and i'm really trying to be and like you said oprah literally was like honestly get the fuck back with him at this point because i don't know how to do like you have to just stay so steady for them because you're not seeing it clearly in that moment no you're not you just need someone to weather that storm with you to just be there with you and eventually you will be able to yeah the cobwebs come yes and you'll be able to sit on the couch and be like let's just reminisce now that i'm not but you eventually left yes yes so you found out he was cheating again how did you find out he's cheating again i mean i i just started i i could just tell i could just it was happening yeah it was happening it was happening i didn't catch him i did not catch him and of course he denied it.

55:05And I believe he was cheating because when we finally broke up, he was the next weekend he was with this woman and clearly had been there for a while. When you look back at leaving, because you said there was the stability of your life, which I think is speaking to everyone who's been cheated on and stayed right and tried to stay. There is a stability of your life that you almost selfishly, understandably, are so dysregulated in that moment. You're like, you just want to go back to what you had. Yes. So you try to repair it. You go to therapy. You try to stay. You then are also in the garage, checking if the car is hot, looking in his pockets, checking if there's little love notes.

55:45And I didn't want to be that girl. Yeah. How did you eventually know you had to leave? Well, because I didn't like who I was. Who wants to live like that? I didn't want to be that person. And keep in mind, Alex, we still stayed in the big, beautiful house. We didn't have to move. I was still working. So it's not like I had to stay because he's supporting us. It wasn't that. And I just started thinking about it. And I think, you know, I think he probably wanted out of the marriage too, for whatever reason. And I remember that one therapist said, you know, Gail, this marriage can work if you become a doormat.

56:23You know, he said to me, my ex said, I'll be so glad when this Gail King shit is over. Now, listen, I was just a big fish in a little pond. I wasn't even, you know, this. I didn't have this kind of prominence. I was a local news anchor, but I was a big deal in my state. where you're well-known, I watch you all the time. And he just didn't like it. Keep in mind, he's a Yale-educated lawyer. He's, to this day, one of the smartest people I know. I used to love talking to him because I love great conversation, very, very smart. So the therapist said, if you want to become a doormat and do everything that he wants you to do, then this marriage can last.

57:04But it took me a while to understand that he really, really resented me. He really did. and I think you know at the end of the day he probably didn't like me of all that I represented and it's not like I walked around like you know I'm Gail King. No you just had a six. I used to run his bath water Alex a little bit of hot a little bit of coal I pick out his clothes because he was colorblind I mean I tried to do everything that I thought I would fill up his car with gas so he wouldn't even have to get gas. All the little things and like you said and I wanted to do them And I want, listen, it wasn't that he asked me.

57:36I wanted to do it. I thought that was a loving, kind thing to do. I think that threatened by a woman's success is one of the biggest, easiest, obvious ways to just completely crumble a relationship, but it's so hard to see as a woman. But men say they want women who are successful. And then they get them and they're like, but be a little less. And you're like, wait, you say you want that, but then you get it. And they're like, what? And so to think about you and having someone so threatened by your success, you're so right that like now being out of that, obviously, for a while and being on your own, having gone on, like, you know, dated people, whatever, like, how have you maintained now a promise to yourself, essentially, that you will never allow yourself to be with someone.

58:25That'll never happen to me again. Well, you know, you want somebody who lifts you up. You want somebody who's proud of you. You want somebody who thinks, God, I think it's great being with you. I'm looking for him. Is he here in the room? Yeah, where is he? Oh, it's only women in the room. It's only women. Shit. I prefer a men's body. Something I am interested to know is like throughout your career and, you know, the more successful you obviously got, you had to navigate moments where you did have to speak up. And, you know, we're talking about this younger woman who was saying, oh, is that true?

58:57Do you love me or not? But that also can play into work. Right. You, unfortunately, have also had to deal with racism in your career and in your life. I remember when you interviewed Michelle Obama and you shared that while you were covering the Super Bowl, an executive made super inappropriate comments about your hair. How have you navigated those type of moments? Because we're talking about personal and now we can shift to still personal and work. Oh, oh, oh. No, he said interesting because I wore it curly and he said, oh, that's interesting. Yes, yes, yes. He did say that. But, you know, or after I had a baby and I'm sitting, you know, you put on a couple of pounds.

59:41Hopefully you'll be fine. But you put on a couple of pounds and I came back to work. And you know how when you go into the boss's office, and I wasn't looking at his papers, but when you see your name, it catches your eye. Even upside down, I saw Gail, and it said Gail's butt. That's what it said, Gail's butt. And he's asking me, we're so glad you're back. you know how is Kirby you know how are you feeling and I'm saying oh it's great I'm so glad to be back and then he said yeah but you know could I ask one thing when you're sitting on the set could you please sit closer in because your butt hangs over the chair and it would really it can be distracting so when you're sitting if you could scoot all the way up to the desk I mean now that's offensive there but there again i'm like oh okay that's what i mean i mean i look at that now the same thing about are you going to wear your hair like that well that's interesting i mean it's it's you know things you don't even think about but that's no one can say that to you these days i was gonna say like how has the way that you respond to sexism and racism evolved throughout your career because now well now now you can say and i have had times with executives where I say, you know what?

1:01:00You cannot speak to me that way. I will go in the office, close the door. I know you're pissed. I know you're upset, but you cannot speak to me that way. So if you're upset, there's a better way that we can handle this because we're all adults. I now have no problem speaking up if somebody is being inappropriate or out of line with me, none. But when you're first starting, I didn't feel the ease about doing that. But I think women today are different. I agree. And I also think it's it is very intimidating. Like we I agree. I hope it's different. But I also and I remember when I interviewed Michelle Obama, she said she was like, here's the reality.

1:01:39You have to be honest about your reality. Where are you in your career? Like she was like, it's very easy for me as former first lady and someone with power to tell someone that's true. You can't do that anymore. Yes. But or are you, you know, trying to make ends meet? You need to afford your apartment. This is your first job. I'm not saying put up with a degree that is to the point where it is abusive and inappropriate. She's absolutely right. But you have to read the room a little bit of, how far are you going to take it? And that makes my heart break for women because obviously it's systemic and it needs to evolve holistically.

1:02:17This isn't just a one-off woman comes forward and then everything is going to change. Right, right. But it is fascinating. But read the room. She's absolutely right about that. room. And I also think sometimes when people are talking about, you should never take abuse on the job ever, ever. But there are times when you're first starting out, you have to work really hard and you don't always get what you want. And you don't always care for the particular boss that you have. And you just have to know how to navigate that. And you can do that without turning yourself into a pretzel and without doing something that is offensive to you.

1:02:53But sometimes when you're first starting out, you have to work really hard. You've got to work holidays. You've got to work weekends. You've got to work nights. And it isn't a matter of people say, well, you know, my mental health and I have to take care of myself. All of that is true. All that is true. But when you're starting out, there are just certain sacrifices, I believe, that you have to make to be successful.

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1:04:40That's why Tinder has astrology mode and music mode. It's an easy way to break the ice and start the conversation, Daddy Gang. Explore all the possibilities for yourself. Tinder, it starts with a swipe. Download Tinder today. Must be 18 plus. I also was thinking about in all these experiences that you have had, you've been in really high stakes moments in your career. One that really stands out to me is the interview with R. Kelly. where you addressed the sexual assault allegations against him. What was your mindset going into that interview? Well, I didn't know R. Kelly. I'd seen him at different places, but I didn't know him.

1:05:21But I'd also seen that documentary. I think most women are telling the truth. Most women, there are some anomalies, but most women don't make this up because you don't want to put yourself out there that way. Most of them don't. I'm not saying they haven't. I'm not saying it never happens, but most of them don't. I saw the documentary. I believe the documentary. I reached out to him. He knew we were going to talk about it. He knew it. But I didn't have a relationship or rapport with him as I do with some people that I interview. And he just, when he started screaming, he just went from zero to 200 in a nanosecond.

1:05:57And people said, were you scared? Because he started hitting his hand and And, you know, he was screaming. And they said, were you scared? You know, I didn't think he was going to hit me. I thought he could accidentally hit me. And that wouldn't be good. But I thought it would be an accident if he did. But I didn't even want to get hit accidentally. But I'd seen interviews with him, Alex, where if he got mad, he would storm away. So I knew if I touched him, said, wait, wait, wait, he would get up and go. So I just sat there very quietly. I looked at him, looked at the chair, looked at him, looked at the chair.

1:06:29at one point he's screaming in a little bit of spirit got right here on my lip and I said don't make a move to myself don't make a move because I thought if I moved he would he would go and so he could see that I wasn't going anywhere and he sat back down and then we could because I'm thinking god I still got some more questions I hope he doesn't go you're like please please please Robert please don't leave so he sat back down we continued the conversation but it went off the rails as you know I called his team the next day to see how he's doing because when you're in it you don't realize how bad it is I knew that it was I knew that he was angry but it was only when I looked at that video that I went holy shit I didn't realize that it looked that way so I called the next day to see listen I just wanted to check in and they said he's fine as a matter of fact he wants to thank you you thank me for what because you allowed people to see his passion and his pain.

1:07:29I go, is that what he saw? Yes, he wants to thank you. I mean, I haven't talked to him since. I would love to talk to him again. I don't know if he would, but I haven't talked to him since then. But I do think that... What would you like to talk to him about? Because, you know, after that moment he's been in prison, he still is saying he didn't do anything wrong. I don't want to talk to him if he's still going to say to me he didn't do anything wrong. You know, it's like I only wanted to talk to O.J. Simpson if he was going to tell the truth. I happen to believe that he's responsible for those deaths.

1:08:04And so I wrote him a letter and I said, you know, I'd really like to sit down and talk to you, but I want to have a real honest conversation. So anyway, I just believe that I was able to remain calm because I wasn't afraid. I really didn't think he was trying to hurt me. And I wasn't done with the interview. But you couldn't, I could not have done that if I was just starting out. I would have been totally rattled and frazzled. I mean, to see, you know, I remember that moment because the fact that he started yelling, yes started hitting his hands and then to physically stand up yeah and you just as a woman sitting there it was so jarring and it was so everyone I think was so taken aback and your composure in that moment and to hear the way that you're talking about it like that takes some serious skill and also what's going through your brain and my brain was like god please could you please sit back down that was what was there was a thought bubble it would have been, oh, damn.

1:09:09Could you please sit back down? I mean, that though, Gail, that though goes back to even the beginning of this interview where you were like, I'm always prepared. Yes. And you had a vision for what you wanted to make sure you got out of that interview. And it's like, you're a professional. But was that the most heightened, you would say, any interview you've ever done has gotten? Yeah, for sure. Were there even like security in the room? There was security in the room. Okay. There was security in the room. Yes. They showed up, but you didn't see them on camera, but they were there. You're like, slow down, boys.

1:09:40Let's see if he takes a seat. Hold on. Yes. Hold on. Don't come in yet. Just not yet. Throughout your career, obviously, you've done so much, but you have made it clear you have no intention of slowing down. And when you received the Journalist Icon Award this year, you said, quote, I'm not even thinking of retiring. Not even kinda. What are your views on aging? Listen, I think to be able to do what I do at this stage in my life, I think it's such a blessing and such a kick. I say I live my life full gallop. I really do. I'm so happy, and I really mean this sincerely, to be on the planet despite all the turmoil and tumult you've heard at CBS.

1:10:24I know there's a lot of great people there working really hard. And so I like being part of that team. We're going through some stuff, but I like being part of that team. And so to be able to do this job at this level, I think, is amazing to me. It's amazing. What is something that you used to believe about getting older as a human or as a woman that you see completely differently now? I used to think I remember when my mom turned 50 thinking, God, she's old. I remember that. My mom had me when she was 21. So when she turned 50, I thought, God. And I remember when I turned 50, the AARP sent me a magazine and I called them and said, please take me off your mailing list.

1:11:11because you get the early bird specials and the coupons. Please take me off your mailing list. I don't even know how they know, but the very next day that damn magazine came. Now I look at that and I think, God, I should have embraced that because I want to send the message that it is good. It is okay. You can thrive. You can be juicy like a peach. You can still have a great, great life. So I regret that I did that now, but now I'm thinking, what else can I do? I completely agree with you. I think what's so beautiful about life, and I've been having a lot of conversations with a lot of women on my show recently about there's such, obviously, this is not new information, but we all know there is a very specific age that society tells us women are desirable at and they are at their best.

1:11:57And disgustingly, a lot of it happens to either be underage or right of age. And unfortunately, there's so much that comes with being that age as a young woman. Even the stories we've talked about when you're younger, it's like you're still figuring life out. You may not even see the sexist comment or you may feel it, but you can't do anything about it. With age comes perspective and growth and wisdom. And with that, the tools that you give yourself through your life experiences allows you to, I genuinely believe, live a better life because you just have more access to who you genuinely are. at such a young age, you're just figuring yourself out.

1:12:39And that is so fun into a certain capacity. But when you really hone in and as I've gotten older and I've entered my 30s and I know I have so much more to go, I feel so much better about this decade than I did the last one. And I believe when I speak to women on my show, that's all everyone's experience. They're like, girl, just wait. It just gets better. It just gets better. It just gets better. It's beautiful. Alex, do you see yourself at 40? What are you going to be doing? Honestly, I feel like I remember my mom saying, oh, my 40s were my best. She's like, if I think back my 40s, she was like, I was.

1:13:11And I'm like, that makes me so excited. I think, you know, welcoming, you know, a child to this world and starting a family for myself. Like, I do think about how much more there is to these next chapters of life. And that's really exciting to me. I can't wait. I can't wait. And like you say, like new experiences are so fun. Yes. To embrace it. That's what I said. new experiences, new adventures. In the spirit of not slowing down, what is a goal you have for yourself that you want to accomplish in the next five to 10 years? I would really like to meet somebody. You know, I used to think I want to get married again.

1:13:48Now I'm not even thinking that. But I do think life is better when shared, Alex. I do. Listen, I have a great life. It's not a, there's no, don't cry for me, Argentina. I have a great, I'm not sitting at home like, oh my God, I'm so, that's not it. But I do think it would be nice to meet somebody that you think thinks you're fun to hang out with. I would like younger, not someone I could give birth to, but younger, you know, like Tom Brady's age. I just saw Tom Brady. I just saw Tom Brady and I just stopped myself from going, you are so good looking. He's also terrific. Specifically Tom Brady.

1:14:24That's a good idea. But I get what you're saying. Tom will appreciate the sense of humor, but, but, but somebody, not somebody I could have given birth to, but I don't mind younger because I'm thinking guys my age, they wear hats. They tend to be a little boring. You can't generalize. You can't generalize, but that has been my experience so far. Okay. I'm going to ask you a couple of dating questions. Are you ready? I'm ready. Rapid fire. Ideal date night. I love a good restaurant. I love, people say don't go to movies, but I love a movie. I love a movie. I like a restaurant movie. Then we could talk about the movie.

1:15:02Cute. I love that. Okay. What would people be surprised to know you're into? Just for like a guy. What do you look for? I like big Alex in every way. You can take with that big hands, big chest, big muscles, big feet. Do with that what you will. Oh, Gail, you showed up and said I am. But I don't mind if he has a tummy because I have a tummy. I don't mind, but I like it. You look big. I want somebody who can pick me up and carry me across the room and his back isn't going on my back. I want that. I want that for you. Can Matt carry you? He can carry me. Okay, there you go. You need someone to carry you.

1:15:42Okay, fair, fair, fair. What is a first date deal breaker? Smoking. I hate smoking. I just, the smell of it, it's not, I just don't like smoking. I feel the same. My mom always was like, oh, it's like kissing an ashtray. I know. Me and mom, yes. I agree. What do you want a guy to notice about you? God, what do I want him to notice first? Well, what? Okay, how about this? Go with this is easier to start with. What is the first thing you notice about a guy? Chest. Okay. I don't even have to hesitate. So I'm assuming you don't want him to notice your chest first. I don't care about that. No. No. No, I think I would like him to think she's fun.

1:16:27Yeah, I would like him to think that she's fun. You are. You know, and great to be around. I would like that. I also like a guy with a sense of humor, somebody that can make you laugh. Panties come off. You got a laugh over there. What do your friends. You know that's true, ma 'am. What do your friends brag about when it comes to you? Well, they'll say fun, but they'll also say kind. I really do care about. I really do. Right. So like this motherfucker better not try to mess around with our girl. I really do. If you're coming in, come with the right intentions. No shrines, no coke. No shrines.

1:17:02Could you please not be a cocaine addict? That would also be. We're just asking bare minimum here. That's a deal breaker. That's bare minimum, Gail. That's not a deal breaker. That's bare minimum. I don't want. I'm on a little weed, although I've never smoked weed. I never have. But I hear some people do and it's enjoyable. That would not be a deal breaker. On a little gummy. You want a little gummy? I've never done it. No. Oh, my God. You want a little gummy? I'm a square. No. Oh, my God. You and Oprah, like, filming yourselves on little gummies, like, sitting there, just like, when is it going to hit us?

1:17:35That's a special I would watch. Well, she's tried other things. She's, okay, okay, fair, fair. We got to get you a little gummy. If your friends could set you up with someone, not Tom Brady, who do you think they would set you up with? Tom Brady. Okay. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no. Honestly, fair. No, let's think, let's think. You know what's so interesting to me, Alex? I wish I could say I've met somebody that I go, I'm going to go after him. Because I don't date married guys. Yeah, no. Or somebody that's involved with somebody. But I would just like to meet somebody that makes you laugh, that is fun.

1:18:08Like, you know who I think is, I do think Tom Brady's a great guy. He's on my mind because I just saw him at a conference. But I think he's very charming. I think he's very good looking. I think he's very smart. but like I think Hugh Jackman is fun I think Hugh Jackman is one of the nicest people that I've ever met he's just is a nice human being you're just looking for a nice guy Gail yes yes we have Jim Nance at CBS does CBS sports just a really nice fun guy that's what you're looking for a nice fun guy I am okay last game okay you are friends with so many interesting people and you've crossed paths with some of the biggest names over the years yeah I want to know who you would call in every situation.

1:18:46And Gail, you cannot answer Oprah every time. Okay. Okay. Who were you calling to guest host for you on CBS Morning's Last Minute? Oh, Last Minute. Oh, this is good. Who you know would be fun. Alex Cooper. That's good. I'll be there. That's good. Honestly fair. Who would you trust to take care of your grandkids overnight? night who's you want somebody who's very nurturing and kind who's just really sweet hoda's nice yeah she'd be good oh yeah they'd be nice yeah she'd be good who is your one call in jail i can't say oprah yeah you can say oprah for that one because that would be my one call no no that's that's your call we're all calling oprah and bring bail money yeah bring the bail babe bring the bail Because if I'm in jail, it's something really big.

1:19:39Yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Bring your pocketbook. Yes. Who are you calling to join you for a Euro trip this summer? Kris Jenner. Wait, yeah, that picture of you guys. She's fun. You have an iconic picture of you, Oprah, and Kris in Spain from last summer, and you're in coordinated outfits. Yes, yes, yes. Kris brought gifts because it was from the Skims line. Number one, she's a doll. I'm nuts about her. and it just it wasn't her boat it wasn't Oprah's boat but it is nice I have to say Alex to have friends with boats I mean Gail that's a really I have to say that's a very nice thing what are you looking forward to this upcoming summer do you have any good plans I want to go see Celine Dion in Paris oh I am working on it who are you gonna go with me and Oprah that's a good experience that's so funny oh my god okay that's fun I know let's see let's see Let me make up somebody.

1:20:35Me and Tom Brady. You're like, shit. Tom Brady's going to go, Gail, he's going to say, shut the fuck up. Honestly, it's so good. That trip sounds amazing. No, it's only because I just saw him at a conference. That's all. But he is a nice guy. He's at the top of mind. He's at the top of mind. Yes, yes, yes. Last question. Okay. When you look back at everything that you have accomplished, personally and professionally, what do you think you are the most proud of? I know it's so cliche, but you're going to say this too when your favorite child comes. I'm so proud that my kids have turned out, knock on wood, they are happy and healthy and they are not bratty kids.

1:21:15You know, they were raised with a lot of privilege. There's no question about that. And so they could really be obnoxious human beings. And the best compliment I can ever get is that I met your son, I met your daughter, and they are just really lovely people. And I did this. This will be fun for you. When Kirby was three, favorite daughter Kirby was three, and Santa was coming, and I said, you've got to give Santa your list. And she had 23 items on it, and Santa got all 23. Now, she's three years old. She opens the last one, and she goes, is that it? Now, she wasn't asking like, I want more. She was just saying, am I done?

1:21:55And I realized in that moment, in that moment, Santa should never give everything that they ask for. ever. In that moment, because I thought, oh, the message that Santa is sending is not good. And I decided that that would never happen again. I made sure they got jobs when they were 14, 15, when you could work, because we have different last names. When they went away to school, they said, mom, could you not come the first weekend? I want to establish my own friend group. Oprah's their godmother. People didn't even know that because they don't walk around talking about it. you know they they're just their heads are really screwed on straight that is so beautiful so i'm very proud of that and you should be because all i've heard is parenting is a beautiful experience and it is so hard it is hard but it doesn't you know when you when you were there every step of the way and there's a way to do it without being there was an article about helicopter parents and i said to i called kirby said do you think i'm a helicopter parent he goes she said what and will say.

1:22:55I said, well, I'm calling you first. And she goes, I hear choppers. Listen, I wanted my kids, I wanted me to be the first thing they saw in the morning and the last thing they saw at night when it was possible to do so. And so I was extremely involved. When they got in little league, I don't want to go to all those frigging games. Maybe you'll feel differently, but they have too many frigging little league games. You're bored out of your mind. And I would say to the other parents, are you guys enjoying this? They just went into extra innings. They go, oh, Gail, don't say that. I go, seriously, are you enjoying this?

1:23:29When you have the Christmas play or the holiday play, they don't have to sing six frigging songs. They can sing two. They don't need to sing six, all off key. You'll see. But I still loved all of those things. And don't let anybody make you feel guilty. I refuse to do that. I refuse. That's good advice for me. I'm going to take that. No guilt. No, because you're working and you like working and you're there for the important things. I remember when, you know, it was my time to bring cupcakes and this woman said, oh, you bought those. Yes, I did. I wouldn't say, bitch. Yes, I did. because she had her little carrier that she had made and the little sprinkles and you know the little Tupperware thing and I go yes these are Intimans I just got them at Stop and Shop on the way here.

1:24:16And they're delicious. And they are delicious. Or another time when Kirby walked for the first time somebody said to me oh you must feel terrible you didn't see her first steps. I go she walked at noon, bitch. It's now 5.30. She's not running. She's not in a marathon. And he had videotaped it. So she was trying to make me feel bad. And I just, I refuse to allow people to do that. Right. You know how good of your mother you are. Yes. I thought I was, listen, was I perfect? No, but I didn't get the nutrition right. Please do better than that. Because they were raised on SpaghettiOs and Tater Tots.

1:24:54I don't recommend that. You know what? My mom did the same and I think I turned out fine. So did she do that? Yeah. She was like, listen, I don't know how to cook. So just here you go. I know Michelle Obama freed me of that one. She's because I said, Michelle, God, I feel so bad because she has healthy eating. She goes, Gail, that's what everybody did. Then don't beat yourself up. I go tater tots, fish sticks. Oh, they were so good. Come on. They were so good. Bagel bites. But that's not healthy. So I know you'll do better. I'm going to do better, Gail. I'm going to do it on camera. I can't thank you enough.

1:25:26You brought me such a lovely gift for the baby and you are just the sweetest. I'm really excited for you. I really, really am. She made me onesies that say Daddy Gang Junior on it. My favorite is my mom is my mommy is unwell. My mommy is unwell. I'm like you get the joke because this is called unwell. Yes. No, it's perfect. And you're so sweet. And And I am so happy you sat down with me today. I knew there would be so many laughs and so many story times, but just everything you've built and also just who you are as a person. I think people talk about it all the time. And I've been fortunate enough to meet you.

1:26:03But everyone always says like she just radiates positivity and it's contagious. I feel that. And it is true. Like you are that type of person that people gravitate towards you. You want to be near. And so the fact that you just let us soak up any type of wisdom, life experience, hard times, positive times. I can't thank you enough. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This was fun. And just remember, Gail is a unisex name when the baby comes. Boy, girl, it works. Just throwing it out. Please tell Matt. I will tell Matt and we will not take it off the table. Put it on the table. Can you imagine?

1:26:41Honestly, I can. Gail King, thank you so much for coming. Thank you, Alex Cooper. Thank you, Mom.

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