Hilary Duff: Life & Love After Lizzie

23:43Hilary Duff:I was approached by the creators of the show and they were just like, we would love to have you on Gossip Girl. And I was like, I love Gossip Girl. And yes. And by the way, I grew up with Penn Badgley. You did? Yeah. So I grew up with this like apartment complex called Oakwood Apartments and he was a lakeside kid. But sometimes we would like all hang out. It'd be like, Like if you went to Campbell Hall, but someone goes to Oakwood and you like all. And was this like little actor vibes or just like normal kids and you just happen to know him? Some kids were normal. Most of them were actors. Okay.

24:14So you were like, you knew him immediately when you stepped on set.

24:17Hilary Duff:Yeah. But honestly, that was a tough, I think they were kind of all sick of each other by the time I got there. It wasn't like, oh my God, we're hanging. It's fun. I was like, oh, I'm showing up to a job and. Right. You're like, tension is pretty high right now. It felt pretty high. Yeah. We need to talk about the threesome that shocked the world. Because when I tell you that threesome, I was like – to those who don't remember, it was Dan, Vanessa, and you. Yeah. And the world was so pissed. Do you remember the world got really pissed? No. Because they were trying to force the Dan and Vanessa romantic vibe.

24:53And we were like, stop trying to make it happen. It never should happen. Oh, okay. And then I think you were in the threesome like hanging out in the corner. And Dan wasn't like – he was going for Vanessa more. I need to rewatch this scene. I was going to say, can you tell I've watched this like a million times? It's amazing. I was getting like the shaft in the corner. You were getting the shaft because it was like Dan and Vanessa like finding their romance. And you were like, Dan, like why am I even here?

25:15Hilary Duff:You're like, I'm the famous one. Wasn't I like a famous actor? You were a famous girl in it. But I have to tell you something funny that happened. And sometimes this happens when I'm in Europe. And like Lizzie McGuire happened later after my music in like Europe. Oh. Yeah. And so I wasn't like totally known for Lizzie McGuire there right away. Okay. It was more like my music stuff. And then some people, I think Lizzie McGuire got huge there eventually, whatever. I was in Paris not too long ago on a girl's trip with two of my best friends. And my bag didn't make it. And the girl at the airport was like, are you from Gossip Girl?

25:55Hilary Duff:And I'm like, yeah. And I get obsessed when things like that happen. So sometimes like weird Gossip Girl fanatics. Wait, that's so good. Isn't that funny? You must be so happy in that moment. You're like, yes, I am from Gossip Girl. I don't remember what my name was. I don't remember what my lines were, what my scenes were, but I was there. I don't remember what my name was. Oh, that's so fun. Dude, that fandom is so crazy. I know. So can you get me my bag quickly? Yeah, because I was like in Gossip Girl. They're like, is that Lanzi Maguire? You're like, no. No. Gossip Girl. honestly so good um okay i heard that the actor who played ethan craft invited you to his high school formal in real life did you go yeah okay i went to a lot of high school former formals and at that point you're famous how did that work the school was really excited that i was there and i was just like yeah i'm excited to be here i didn't go to high school or middle school you're Like I'm taking it in.

26:53Yeah.

26:53Hilary Duff:I'm like, look at all these people grinding on the dance floor. Me too. Let's go. Did people leave you alone? Like I think enough. And also you going with the Ethan Craft character is kind of a mind fuck because people were probably like. We went as like a group. Okay. So it wasn't like. No. Okay. And did you guys ever have a thing behind the scenes? Okay. No. Ethan wasn't your vibe. But he did have a parrot that scared me at his house. Like. Okay. Yeah. I showed up to the house and like I didn't know that I was like standing behind a giant birdcage and the parrot like literally punked me and was like, boo.

27:24Hilary Duff:And I was like, oh my God. And like the parent parrot like knew how to like scare. Ethan. Good old Ethan. I only know. I'm like Ethan. Ethan and Kate. Okay. Were you and Aaron Carter already dating before his cameo on Lizzie McGuire or did that like bud on that set? We weren't dating. Also, this is where like all this stuff started there was no social media to be like who was dating who right yeah yeah no no so you just take people's word for it and then like people get mad at you wait why i mean if you're like lindsey lohan or me and he's like probably dating both of us like you know what i mean oh i see i see like you couldn't just put up an instagram story no well we're clarifying now also texting was like pushing three buttons t9 to get the like yeah oh my god you and cinderella story like hey what's up today and it takes you nine hours social like one of the like a tick tock yeah of that doing something for something else and i'm we're sitting there trying to get the lol to come up and i'm like swiping at the screen and someone was like you need to stop doing that it's what does like old phone cell phone to get lol you have to be like one two three yeah one two three four but it's so crazy i called my son downstairs who's 13 and i was like i just want you to watch what this used to be like for us.

28:43Hilary Duff:He's like, no, I don't care. He's actually so sweet. And he, if he doesn't care, he acts like he does. You're like, look what mommy had to do. That means like we were dedicated. If you had a text that you wanted to send on T9. I know. If you sent a paragraph, you were in love with someone. No, I know. It was like, that was a lot of effort. That was a lot. And what about when you would make a typo and like have to go? And then you're like back and the whole thing. No, no, no, no. It was dedication through and through okay so sorry back to aaron carter yes i had met him at his birthday party i got invited to his birthday party i'm telling you the olsen twins were there who else would have been there i thought it was gonna be like this huge list i could get you excited by like but it was the olsen twins okay yeah so that's all that matters me we're like happy um maybe amanda binds was there oh yeah i mean it was like the ogs oh my god at his birthday so i met him there there was like some cute sparks and then I think I pitched the idea of having him come on the show and then right we started dating pretty soon after that I need everyone to go re-watch because I just did it this morning while I was putting my makeup on the I want candy moment where you and Miranda are in the corner and you keep doing this thing where you're like putting your hand in your hair why it's so good because you can tell you like kind of like him and he's like I want candy in a Full silver jumpsuit?

30:05Full silver jumpsuit. Your hair is like and then your hair is all curled up. And you keep going like this when he comes over to you. Hillary, it's actually it's like an actual landmark on the Internet. Like I need everyone to go watch it because it's so cinematic. Also, it like holds up. It was amazing. OK, good to know. OK, last last one. Lizzie McGuire movie. It's important that, you know, like to this day, peak cinema, peak cinema. Like also back to you getting fired for not being a twin. Hi. Hello. You got your revenge because you ended up playing two characters. Yes. My four-year-old is very like, how?

30:44But how? How did you do that? I'm like. You're like, don't worry. Okay, wait. So have they seen the movie?

30:50Hilary Duff:Yes. My four-year-old just watched it on a plane. I know. And when it was over, she just goes, I, she's sitting next to my assistant. And she was like, again. No. all of us. She's literally all of us again. Do your other kids like the movie? Banks is like a Lindsay Lohan stan.

31:14No. Yeah.

31:16Hilary Duff:No, honestly, Banks is like my number one like cheerleader to the max. So like she obviously like doesn't know any of that stuff. I know. So it's actually amazing. Yeah. What is their favorite project of yours? I've not asked that. I don't know. You don't know? No. Have you showed them everything no i'm not like let's go down sit everybody sit down i forget i forget that it's like not cool of a mom to be like now let's watch my next project but for me i'm like they haven't seen cheaper by the dozen i think luca probably has seen cheaper by the dozen i think he was probably more interested in that because it was like boys and frogs and like football and you know things like that but um they've seen some of it um my same assistant put on like bunked the other day.

32:04I know.

32:04Hilary Duff:And I was like, you should probably be putting on Lizzie McGuire. You're like, what are you doing? You're like, you're a traitor. What is this? Turn on Cinderella Story now. Oh, wow. Okay, well, we need to know when they actually see that. My four-year-old has seen parts of Cinderella Story and she's basically like, can we just get to the end with the dress? And she doesn't understand the mask and how he didn't recognize me with that mask on. I know. He's like, that's you, mommy. And you're like, okay. Yeah, she's like, but how would he not know? And I was like, no, I know. That's the age old question, babe.

32:31That's the best part. That's the best part of the whole thing. OK, thank you for going down memory lane with me. That was very fun. You gave us all we needed to know.

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34:58You can also feel confident knowing BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully qualified. So take a pause with therapy. BetterHelp can help life feel manageable again. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash daddy. That's betterhelp.com slash daddy. I mean, you started working so young. You were like 11 years old and you lived so much life at such a young age. How did that impact what you were looking for and what you were ready for in your 20s?

35:32Hilary Duff:Oh gosh, I was always like a relationship girl. So I was in like long-term relationships my whole life really. dating was not easy for me. And so around that time, I met Mike. I met my first husband. And we had so much fun. And that just felt like

36:00a really solid place to land. Because you were 22 when you first got married. Yeah.

36:10Hilary Duff:So I was like 19 when we met and we got married really young. And then I had Luca so young. And I think I was like very – I always knew I was going to be a young mom. I always wanted to be a mom. I always wanted a lot of kids. So that was really – it was major. I mean, that was a crazy time, like to be like pregnant at 23, 24. How did you know you were ready for that with your career? I didn't care about my career at that point. Mike was playing hockey. I was like going to live with him for like months at a time wherever he would play. And we were just like having fun and I didn't really care that much about my career.

36:55Yeah. Having been so young and lived so much life, like what did it mean to you when you had a child? Like when you had Luca, like did it change everything for you? Yeah. Big time.

37:10Hilary Duff:I was so excited to have him to focus on.

37:16Hilary Duff:My life had been like so about me and like I didn't want all of that. I wanted, I think, just something that felt like tangibly mine to hold on to and to focus on. And yeah, it was really fun. It was also really confusing. I had not a single friend who had a baby or was pregnant because obviously I was so young. My friends were like, are you serious, teen mom? What are you doing? Can you talk about that? Because I think that's like very relatable where a lot of my audience is either the girl that is having the baby that none of their friends are at that stage or the reverse where all their friends are having kids and they're not.

37:54Like how did that impact your friendships?

37:59Hilary Duff:Well, my friends were all going out and stuff and I was like, I'm not doing that anymore. Yeah. and that was kind of hard but I didn't really care about that as much it was just

38:14Hilary Duff:I think all the physical changes were a big deal for me

38:21Hilary Duff:I think I gained like 50 pounds I was pregnant with him and I'm 5 '2 so that was like a wild just like, oh my God, what has happened to me? But I'm trying to think. One of my best friends, we've been friends for 20 years now. I remember she walked into my door late and I was like, I think you expect everyone to get it when you have a baby and no one gets it. And you're like, Like this made – like all of a sudden I'm on a schedule. And like if you don't know what it's like to be on a schedule because you don't have like a family yet, 20 minutes late, I'm like this isn't like us a year ago. This is me now where like my – like nursing a baby is not just like, oh, you're like my milk's coming in and I've got to get like get this out.

39:14Hilary Duff:You know what I mean? And then the baby goes on for a nap. And if that doesn't happen, I get not a single minute to my day. You know what I mean? So like looking forward to seeing your friend and then them being late, you're like, it's over. We can't hang. And then also the nerves of like now I would be like, come, it's all good. It's your first kid. Your first kid. You didn't know what you were doing. Yeah, you're just nervous. So my friend, sorry, the part of the story was that my friend like watched me like nurse my baby. My boobs were like huge and, you know, it's all like clunky and new and whatever.

39:48Hilary Duff:and she texted me and she was like, I don't even – it's crazy to not recognize you. And I was like – Oh, my God. I know. And later I was like, you hurt my feelings so much by saying that. But I know you didn't mean it. Like it must look insane, right? Like I'm like nursing a baby and we've like grown up together and now this like crazy thing happened. It feels like you're like a new person to her. And really all you probably needed that moment is to feel like you haven't changed. Just like eat a salad and have a hang. Yes. And like not feel like you're this outsider because everyone in your life is still clubbing.

40:23Hilary Duff:I want to hear who you just hooked up with. And I wanted like things to be normal, but nothing's normal. Right. Can you also share a little bit more about like how your body image was affected by pregnancy? Because I think that's like I have never had a kid and I do – I would love to have kids at one point. But I think for women it's so hard because it's like you're expected to be everything for everyone. and you go through this like extreme change in your life and women then it's like the bounce back thing and what do you look like like how did you manage all of that I don't know because I dealt with a lot of I remember being I think in Mexico with my mom or something like four months after I had Luca and we had like a private home there that we were staying at and a paparazzi got a picture and they were like, Hillary debuts post baby bod.

41:23Hilary Duff:And I was like, babe, I'm not debuting anything. You're taking a picture of me at a private house when I think I'm with my family and my baby and like, it's horrendous. So that's like so messed up and I feel like it's getting better. And as I've had subsequent kids, like you're just like, oh, I recognize this. I know what it is. It's hard to get through this phase, but it's all like, it's all fleeting. You know what I mean? And so the more times I've done it, the less like weight it has with like dealing with your body changing and you kind of, I don't, you know, normal people don't have to like have the noise, but you're sensitive.

42:13Hilary Duff:It's really hard. You'd look different, you know, forever. You're like feeding a child and you're supposed to know exactly what to do and you don't know exactly what to do. And things don't always work out the way, you know, the pressure to feel like a natural mother like is a lot, you know. You had mentioned, I think, that you – like nursing for you in the beginning was difficult. And again, like as women, if it doesn't go exactly as they tell you on the internet and according to plan, like sometimes there can be like shame around that. Like how did that impact your self-esteem? I still could cry thinking about like just not being able to be – you want to be everything for your kid because you grow them and you birth them.

43:03Hilary Duff:and they're yours and you watch, you know, reels of like people just nursing their baby in public and it being so natural and like it just wasn't like that for me. And I, every time you like, we would like weigh, this was with Townes mostly, but like she wasn't gaining weight and I'm trying to like nurse her literally around the clock. And that's my fourth kid, like just supplement. what are you doing like you know and you're just like I was so stubborn about it I just wanted I wanted it to work out and it didn't and like then you're two weeks out of like not nursing and you're like yes this is the best freedom ever but in that moment you're like how will I ever cope with this how will I why can't I be good at this um and you know Luca I nursed him the most it was easier then and like down the line I just each child got less and less and less and now I'm like who cares but in the moment it's like you're so consumed and I think by design right like we're designed to take care of our child by feeding them from your body but like guys have to do one thing one time that's what my husband says he's like I did one thing one time and like you have to do all of these things and then it's all on you yeah which is a lot and I even have friends I know that will be watching that are going through that phase right now that it's like it is helpful to hear from someone so many people look up to and grew up with that they're at a similar stage right now where it's like hearing other women talk about it I think is like half the battle because it is so isolating and to just hear you even say like it actually got better as I just kept going because even if it didn't actually get better I got better at handling yeah how hard it was um which is life right speaking of hard things so you're in a different place than your friends.

44:53You're a young mom. There's scrutiny online, your body, you're figuring all this out. And then you go through a divorce. Yeah. And your child is not even to not even to without. Obviously, I know you have a co-parenting dynamic and I don't want to speak at all negatively about him. How did you know that it was time to walk away and that the marriage was over oh gosh it just got to a point where it wasn't gonna it wasn't gonna be like we we just

45:30Hilary Duff:i think he was good with it because i was like here's this this this like you know and he was like great like we're this was before conscious uncoupling was a thing and my parents went through such a bad divorce that I was like calling it made it really painful. But like we're not together anymore. So obviously it was bad enough that it just wasn't it wasn't working. And that was a really tough call because we had a not even two-year-old kid. And I remember doing everything in my power to like have it be peaceful and have us hanging out and spending time together. And every time we would, you know, trade, it wouldn't just be like a drop off pickup situation, we would like go to the park and hang or go have a meal.

46:26Hilary Duff:It was really important to me to to do it in a way that Luca could feel like comfy. I can't remember the exact time I was like, gonna call this, you know, but um it happened pretty fast it was just it was a like you know it was not it wasn't working anymore but I remember the one thing that was really hard about it was like processing that it was happening and it was going to happen and going through all of those emotions and it was a really it was a really scary time to just not want to fuck up your kid you know what I mean you put like all of your stuff aside and I had to like deal with all of that later to just make sure that like he was okay and then you know you file for divorce and TMZ literally has like an office at the LA courthouse so they see every single paper that goes through so like within 50 minutes they're like reporting and then you have to like process it along the world alongside with the world, you know?

47:36I did not realize that about TMZ. That's actually insane. Yeah. But like when do you think and how did you do it in terms of like almost like mourning what you thought your life was going to look like I think is very relatable. And then you kind of don't have control over it. You had to make a decision for you and your family and your kid. Like when do you think you were able to actually mourn that loss essentially? I haven't ever thought about that.

48:03Hilary Duff:I think probably when I started like dating again and like my divorce was finalized and we were, you know,

48:22Hilary Duff:co-parenting and stuff. Like I think it was just something – I had a lot of therapy. Like I, that was a very helpful tool to help like confront the feelings that would come up, you know? I was 26, 27. No, I was 27, 28. And that's like such a crazy time, you know? Like that's a very fun time of your life. And I started to like allow myself to have fun through something really painful. And I feel like that's actually a very heavy theme in my life, like everything. This record, there's a lot of like heavy themes disguised as like joy because it's pop music. And I feel like that is a huge part of like how I operate.

49:10Hilary Duff:Like this big thing can be happening over here and it's really hard and it's a struggle and I'm going to sort it out and sometimes I might push it down and deal with it later or like I'm going to be tackling it right now. But like I genuinely am like such a happy person that I seem to be able to like get through things. that's how you clearly survive those hard moments, right? You're like, I'm going to choose to see the positive in life to keep it moving. Also, I think I knew from my parents' divorce that like I was going to show my kid that you got to like fight for your happiness. And I knew that it was going to be better to do it when he was younger than it was going to be when he was like five and aware or eight and aware.

49:52Hilary Duff:And then kids put like a whole different element of like guilt on themselves for like their marriage not working out. I was like, if Luca cannot remember this and have two lives that exist that he can be happy in and feel like secure in, I think we're winning. Yeah. What do you think overall? Because I know you're saying you're a positive person, which I think is like a great lesson for people. but for you if someone is going through a divorce right now like can you describe your lowest moment and then how you got out of it through that to anyone who's maybe at that low point right now one you have to have a therapist you have to be talking you have to be processing the feelings um and you have to stand up for yourself i think that was just the thing i was like i have to just stand up for myself.

50:43Hilary Duff:I have to. And the same thing could have been going on for him. You know what I mean? Like, so I'm not just like, oh, I up and left. Like it was a collaborative thing that needed to happen. But you got to fight for yourself and it doesn't matter that you have kids. Your kids, your kids are going to be okay. You know what I mean? You just have to show them that like you also matter. I think that that was a big thing for me is like when you have kids, you kind of become so all consumed by them and they get your everything. And

51:27Hilary Duff:it was important for me to not let that be a factor because a two-year-old can't decide that and know what's, you know what I mean? So. it's really good advice. It's like you matter too. And actually by showing. But once you become a mom, your guilt becomes so thick that like you don't actually, there's like this part of your brain where you're like, yeah, I'm still in here and I'm still me. And then there's like this huge shadow over it was like, but everything for the family and everything for your kid. And, you know, and that's a good, it's, I think again, it's by design, but it's a constant conversation to like choose yourself and choose something you know that you enjoy outside of family life and kids because eventually what you're also showing them is like you're leading by example because then they will choose themselves hopefully if they're ever in that situation because they're going to have watched you do it i think that's absolutely right like i had to go drink a martini last night instead of stay home with my family It's just a little thing.

52:29Hilary Duff:And I've been working a lot and I try to still give them everything. But like I had to have that dirty martini last night. Mom needed it. They're not going to blame you, Hillary. I love it. Okay. So you eventually start dating. You get out of this marriage. You start dating. And then you eventually meet your now husband. Should we call him Matthew? Matt? What should we call him? Matthew. Matt. I call him Matthew when I'm like talking about him. I don't know why it feels so sophisticated. Matthew. My husband's name is Matthew too. Oh. Okay. How did you guys meet? We got set up from my A &R person.

53:02Hilary Duff:I was at RCA for a nanosecond and my RCA, my A &R person there set us up on like a work date. Okay. And was it an immediate connection or was it like a slow burn? It was pretty immediate, but like we kept it response. Like we weren't like outwardly flirting, but I was like, wait, this person's so fun to talk to. and our meeting was like two hours long. I know. And then I was like, oh my God, I've got a child that I have to go. But we were just talking like music

53:39and taste.

53:40Hilary Duff:And I was a quarter of the way through making a record. And it was just, he was definitely cute. And then I found out like a month ago that he sent an email that he found and sent it to me. And he wrote his manager and was like, two hours with Hillary. I think I'm in love. You're like laughing, but you're also like, I literally felt the same way, but I didn't put that in writing. Wait, that's amazing. I know. So you both felt it immediately, kind of. Yeah. And I think we were like, flirty, but not like, you know when there's just like a ping pong like vibe that's happening but you're not like like is this person just like this fun to talk to or like are they our feelings yeah it was like that and um i was going to sweden for like half a month or something to work on some music and he we were like chatting during that time and then i came home and was like recording two songs that he had written.

54:48Hilary Duff:And there was a lot of, he was very sweet. I was like sick for one of them and he had brought me like all these like honeys and teas and cough drops. I know. And then. And you guys hadn't hooked up at this point yet? No. Nope. We hadn't hooked up yet. And then he asked me to be his Valentine. I know, but I already had plans with Luca and I was like, sorry, I can't because I have a date already. And then I just like took a picture of Luca and sent it to him and he was like, okay, I accept. Fair. Great. So I think we had like a date maybe a few days after or a week after or something. And it was great.

55:23Hilary Duff:But he was so nice to me. And I remember being like – like after a few times we had hung out, I was like, he's just so nice. That's not really a thing. So you thought it was like almost a red flag that he was too nice. I think I was just like not ready to accept all of that yet. I was like coming out of that, like a long relationship, a divorce. Like I was just like chaotic. Yeah. I think I needed some chaos first. Yes. Meeting a nice guy that's actually going to treat you well. You're like, wait, can you pause for two seconds? Yeah. Let me put my shit together and I'll come back. Yeah. Totally.

56:00Okay. Wait. So who made the first move move?

56:03Hilary Duff:Him. Okay. Then I broke up with him. Okay. Hold on. Okay. I feel like there's so much. You guys have said like very on and off again. You broke up with him. Then didn't he break up with you? Like, can you kind of just take me through what the hell happened? Yeah. So, okay. So I don't know how long we dated. Maybe like three months or something. Really, honestly, we had a bunch of fun during that time. And then I was like, got to go. You need to go like handle. He had some personal stuff he needed to work on. I was like, I have a child. Like, I don't know what excuse I use. Some bullshit excuse.

56:38Hilary Duff:But I was like, sorry. Bye. You're literally perfect. I got to go. Yeah. Hillary. Okay. So that was like maybe six months separation. And then what? How did we? Okay, he's also obsessed with – do you know the band Dawes? No. Okay, Dawes is this amazing band. They're like his heroes and now they're like his best friends because – and Taylor is married to Mandy Moore. Okay. And I've known Mandy Moore my whole life, but like we were never running in the same like friend circles, but I would like see her at like TRL or like – I know. Throwback. know each other but like aren't really friends and so we hadn't spoken in a long time and he texts me out of the blue and he's like taylor and mandy married and i was but we didn't know them yet we weren't friends with them yet he's just like creepy updating me on their life because he's so obsessed with daws and i like i will i will never forget i was pulling out of like a grocery store parking lot and i almost wrecked my car i was like wait am i actually getting this text right now text right now and then it was like boom boom boom boom boom boom boom we're back we're back baby oh yeah and then um we were together for like three months things were like very surface and i didn't like that i was like i need i think maybe because i broke up with him he was like is she gonna do it enough like i don't know and i think coming from like also a broken household.

58:25Hilary Duff:I was like, let me push this guy and try to poke all the holes in it that I can to see if he's going to like stick around. Do you know what I mean? Relatable. Yes. And so we go to New York and I'm like on a work trip and I, it was like a wine event where I had to like basically drink wine all day and like host like a dinner party, like not a dinner party, but like a garden rooftop party. Oh my God. What a great job. So fun. Except for like, you know, those press days where you're like basically don't eat. Yes. And then you're drinking. And you're just talking to people and you're like working, but.

59:04Hilary Duff:Yes. You're like, by the end, I was like, I am. You're seeing stars. Two sheets to the wind. Yes. Yes. And then we go to dinner and it was like an omakase and I had like had more wine, whatever. I pick some fight. We get into it. I don't even know exactly what I said, but he left the next morning. I know. Yes. She's up and left. Uh-huh. No, I mean, we like had a discussion and he was like, bye. He left, like, he kind of like hit me with his bag on the way out the door and left the door open. We were in the Greenwich, we were at the Greenwich Hotel and the doors don't like automatically close there.

59:36Hilary Duff:So it's like an awkward like. And I was like, did you just leave the door open. He's like at the elevator, literally. I know. The drama. I know. He's like, I'm leaving. You left me once. I'm leaving you. It's my turn. I think that it leveled the playing field in a really good way. But then he wouldn't speak to me because he's a crazy Gemini. And I was like, I just want a moment to like say I'm a Libra. I need balance. That was like a crazy night when I really – that's not really like who I am. So I was just like, I want to genuinely like say sorry. you don't have to like this is not me like pleading to get back with you I need to like just make it right and like genuinely like apologize whatever wouldn't speak to me then that made me mad and I was like literally it's been a week a week and then I text him and I was like your guitars will be at the guard gate pick them up at this time he must have gotten them we didn't really like talk whatever and then he words with friends me like a few months later You're lying to me right now.

1:00:36And I was like, wait, again, almost wrecked my car.

1:00:39Hilary Duff:I was so excited. Wait, words with friends is also, why did I also have that with an ex where we would like kind of communicate that way? And you're like, what are we doing? Just pick up the fucking phone and call each other. I know, but it's kind of fun. It is. You get the notification. And he's so good with words that I was like, I mean, obviously I always get beat. Right. But you're like, okay, here we go. Yeah. And that was right before my 30th birthday. So he was like at my 30th birthday, which was so nice. And it was like this really lovely moment where I like looked around my party and I was like, everyone that is here like means so much to me and has been like such an important part of my story and my like growing, you know, and it's not like a 70th birthday, but 30 is a big deal, you know?

1:01:23Hilary Duff:So it was nice. He was there for that. And then literally, we were we were going away where's the place with all the red canyons like in utah or something yeah um amon yeah yeah so we were there and i remember on the way back we're on the airplane i was like when do you want to have kids and he was like probably like 35 and then i was pregnant like two months later and i was like gotcha oh wow okay wait i feel like one of the themes in your album is abandonment wounds and to have this be on and off again and then to finally realize like this is your person and he realized you are my person like how did you work through those wounds because it's hard and I feel like a lot of women listening will be like wait honestly I think what worked was me just trusting him and that's just time really a lot of time obviously three pregnancy is a lot on a relationship and especially one or like I feel like I come with a lot of like baggage and I think just that he's willing to like really be there and shelter my emotions and my story and he just kept showing up over and over and I was like cool that Once I could get through that, like now we get to really have like the fun.

1:02:54Hilary Duff:You know what I mean? Like because I just fully trust him and that was so hard to get to that place.

1:03:04Hilary Duff:And there was no secret recipe but just time and trusting my gut that like I made a good decision and that it's real and that like a person actually just cares about me. Like it's really hard to accept that for some reason. But how beautiful that you – then he proved it. Yeah. Over and over again. Like he's so – he rides really hard. And it's really cute. You were pretty candid about saying like you didn't know if you wanted to get married again after everything you had been through. Like how did you change your mind? Well, I always knew I wanted more kids and I knew he'd be an amazing dad. Once I finally introduced him to Luca, he, I think it was around Halloween and he like showed up as like head to toe Ninja Turtle.

1:03:53I know. And I was like, oh, my God.

1:03:56Hilary Duff:That's really cute. That's so cute. He's leaning in. He leaned in and he was just really, really patient knowing that I was like not ready to introduce him for a long time. when we became parents to banks, that was a big, I was like, oh, we're good at this. This feels right. And then I always knew he wanted to get married and he's like kind of a traditional guy like that. And I don't remember when the time was, but I always would be like, we can get married at 60. We can be like old and all of our kids can be there. and he would be like okay you know he wasn't like ever asking me but we would talk about it sometimes and then randomly we were in New York shooting Younger and uh I sent him a picture of a ring that I really liked and I was like maybe I could see this on like my young cute hand and not my like old 60 year old hand and then he proposed like two months later so sweet

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1:06:23Daddies, I'm starting to suspect that a night in is the new nightlife. Okay. This is my life now. Snacks, comfy clothes. I want to romanticize doing absolutely nothing. And on those nights when I'm staying in, T-Mobile has me covered with value that keeps on stacking up the more I use it. Like, hi, streaming benefits and snack perks that truly deliver. Guys, the math is mathing. Okay. There are so many perks and benefits. T-Mobile is basically making staying in a full-blown lifestyle powered by carbs and content. I am a T-Mobile stan. Okay. Anyone that makes me feel not only better, but great about staying in.

1:07:05Yeah. I love you T-Mobile. Okay. And if you have T-Mobile like I do, you won't believe how good staying in can be. Check it out at T-Mobile.com slash magenta status. Disclaimer, streaming benefits included while you maintain a qualifying experience beyond plan line. Not only are you guys husband and wife, but you're also collaborators and business partners. I want to ask about your new song, Roommates, which, you know, it talks about losing the spark and intimacy in a relationship. What was it like working on this together? One, he doesn't shy away from like heavy topics that are uncomfortable when it comes to songwriting.

1:07:47Hilary Duff:Of course, we're like a normal couple. So like there's I love that like opening line of the song is like I can barely mention it without causing some ego trauma. And it's like he's a man and they all are. And like even if the tables were turned, like it's hard to be in a relationship with someone and like call out something that's not working. if like for the most part it's good, but you're like, I feel really stuck right now. Like I'm not feeling the way that I want this to feel or whatever. So it's like, it's hard because it feels like an attack. So like, it's just hard to have communication that is healthy, helps you get what you need or want without like bruising the other person.

1:08:32Hilary Duff:Especially in a family where like you're working overtime to make everyone's needs met and just make the household float, you know? And I don't want to always like relate to a family because everybody gets in that. You know what I mean? Like anybody in a long-term relationship or even something that's like six months where it was like really sparky in the beginning starts to like – life starts to feel normal and you're like, wait, I missed that thing. Right. It's like it almost has somehow become like people get like shy or embarrassed to admit like, guys, everyone feels it when you're in a long term relationship or again, like the honeymoon stage is over.

1:09:14Every, I would say, long term relationship goes through a moment where there's a shift in intimacy. Right. And to actually maintain a healthy long term relationship, you have to first acknowledge that's going to happen. Yeah. And not just like leave when it's not working. but then you also have to talk about it which is the awkward part you're kind of saying because like it is so uncomfortable to be like can we talk about our sex life and like one person is wanting it more one person's wanting it less or one person's initiating more and like that's the most vulnerable I think one of the most vulnerable things that you can talk about with a partner I know but once you open the door to that conversation it is life-changing yeah and it I don't mean it's like easy every time, but like do you have advice going through this writing process, going through it together and talking this through for anyone who is like how do you navigate those conversations and not have it lead to a fight or someone's feelings getting hurt?

1:10:16Hilary Duff:it's just like being a healthy communicator and being able to like I think one of the things I struggled with and where like roommates kind of came from was like it wasn't even necessarily like his problem I was having a hard time asking for what I needed or being like

1:10:37Hilary Duff:being in a place where I was like felt like I couldn't like share or like was like ashamed of the like needs that I had you know I think it's just being able to like be open and not and not like blame someone like communicating without blame is like a really it's like an art form. Quite literally. Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. It's almost like sometimes it has nothing to do with your partner. It's actually like all on you of like, this is something I've been thinking about. And now I need to make sure that when I'm saying this, it's coming out in a way that's not, I wish you would, or it's actually like I need and I want.

1:11:24And that starting from that place is such a healthier place to communicate it. So they're not immediately shut down and feeling backed into a quarter and like they're doing something wrong, which is beautiful.

1:11:34Hilary Duff:Also, I think that women have like such intuition and such a – oh, what's the word I'm looking for? Like you're just in tune. You just know. And I remember calling his mom and being like, why doesn't he know? I know. Every woman in the world, like why don't you know? And they're like, I don't know. But if you tell me, I'll fix it. Right. And it's so simple, but you're like, I don't want to have to tell you. How don't you just know exactly what I'm feeling? Just know. It's making more work for me to have to tell you. And they're like – She literally like – I forget what some of the post-its would say, but she'd be like, babe, put a post-it up and just remember you got to tell him.

1:12:14Hilary Duff:You got to ask for what you need. You have to – whatever. I know. And then it made things so much better when I was like stopped – when I didn't expect him to just know. Yeah. It's like we want them to be able to read our minds, but like they can't. And so once you just start communicating, it's so much easier. But then you're already coming from a place of being annoyed that you're like, I've been suffering. It's like, I didn't even know that. And you didn't notice? They're like, no. Yeah. Talk. Say something. Yeah. The lyrics also in the song reference porn and masturbating. And it was pretty crazy to see the way some of the internet responded.

1:12:48Hilary Duff:I know. People were like – some people were absolutely shocked and outraged that you were speaking about these things. How did it make you feel to see that some people really were still expecting you to present in this squeaky clean child star image that they watched you as a young girl have? Well, I think that probably my initial reaction was like, oh, they just haven't like evolved yet, you know, and I don't care at all. One of the craziest comments that I saw was like, and do you do that in front of your children? And I was like, no. What? Are you okay? No, but guess what? Like, the song is meant to be polarizing.

1:13:40Hilary Duff:It's not meant to, like, be raunchy or, like, get attention because of what I'm saying. Like, it's a plea. And, like, I think that's relatable to women. and so you know I have never given head in the back of a dive bar sadly there's always time but it's gonna happen but you get to take like like lyrical like liberties when you're writing a song and you're creating art and it was it was important for me that the song felt like very polarizing because that's that's how it feels in a moment of a of a lull in a relationship where you're just like, I need to sort this out. I need to get through this.

1:14:22Hilary Duff:I can't keep feeling this way. And yeah. So yeah, it was really wild to see some of the – I think for the most part, it was good. It was. But then of course, like all the comments that stand out to you are the negative ones. It's also funny because I feel like from the internet, what I saw was at first it was all positive. And then as people like really started to dissect the lyrics and had like more time to sit on it, they're like did she say masturbate did she say porn and everyone's like yeah hillary duff said the word porn and everyone's like it's almost like just like the bandwagon it's like so fun for them and easy to just like get on it and you'd be like yeah that's kind of crazy i what i also took from it or like do your kids sing that and i'm like i'm not making music for my kids i'm not making music for seven-year-olds i'm making music for myself i'm making music for people like myself so you know I was singing crazy lyrics when I was young too that I had no idea what they meant and if I was like I'm not making a children's record again I think there's an image people have of you being a child star that they that's like on them it's not on you yeah um I also thought it was ironic that you know they're so shocked that you're singing about sex as an adult but then And when you rewind as a teenager, you had reporters asking you, have you lost your virginity?

1:15:42And are you sleeping around? So it's like it's never – women can never win. It wasn't appropriate when you were underage that people were asking you these things. And now that you have autonomy and you're an adult, people are now so fixated on like, how dare you talk about sex? And it's like, wait. What do you want from me? She has four kids. Do you guys think that she doesn't have sex?

1:16:00Hilary Duff:It was immaculate conception. Yes. Every time. How though do – I'm curious. People having always something to say about you and your sexuality and whether it was your virginity or you're hooking up and then now, like how has that impacted your sexuality? I don't think it like impacted my relationship with sex. But I think it's just been another one of those things that comes along with my career that I didn't really ask for and I've had to learn how to just accept. but it was really hard as a young girl because I was like coined the good girl and everybody was like, she's the good girl, she's the good girl and like just having to label someone and then do everything they could to try to poke holes in that label or try to figure out any thing they could that was like somewhat negative or bad, you know, it was like they were just trying to create stories.

1:17:04Hilary Duff:And it was hard to be like, one, okay, I've been labeled the good girl, but I'm also just normal, doing all the normal things that teenagers are doing and trying to just kind of exist without accepting those things to be true about myself maybe.

1:17:32Hilary Duff:Or having any sort of like privacy, I think was just like really hard. And yeah, I remember that time that person like asked me if I was a virgin. And I was like, I think also as a child actor, you're conditioned to like want to give people what they want, you know? So like answering something like that felt like really wild. Wait, did you answer? I don't remember. I don't remember. I just remember it being said and it was like a stir of like publicists and like a crazy, you know, just like so inappropriate. Beyond. Yeah. Yeah. That stuff I don't think flies anymore. No. But yeah, it was definitely in the middle of that like crazy press time where people would ask you whatever.

1:18:14And that's why I'm so happy that you're taking your own liberty of like, I am going to talk about things in my life and it's okay if everyone doesn't want to accept it, but don't just not accept it because of an image you have of me as a young girl, because that's actually just weird. You have a song also called We Don't Talk and you kind of basically say, don't know when it happened, not even sure what it was about, which is weirdly, really relatable. I think it kind of seems like you're talking about, and correct me if I'm wrong, like when a relationship falls apart and when you have time away from it, you look back, you're like, wait, why did we lose touch or how did that exactly go down?

1:18:54How do you approach those type of dynamics in your own life? Like, are you the person that will reach out or do you kind of retreat and not try to mend something if it's broken? I will reach out. You do. Have you had to do that a lot in your life? Yes. Has it always felt like, oh, you made the right decision or have you been kind of bitten in the

1:19:15Hilary Duff:ass ever i think i get bitten in the ass sometimes when it doesn't unfold the way that i would like i was hoping but i think that um i think one thing that i appreciate about myself is that i will always try and i like always try to keep a heart open and like a heart forward and try and that like as a 38 year old who's like navigated the industry since I was nine years old makes me feel like healthy you know like it's easy to get jaded and and and really rough around the edges and I don't feel like I am yeah obviously you are a very public person so people are constantly trying to dissect your lyrics um but a lot of people have been thinking that this could be about a family member of yours.

1:20:14How do you feel when you see those things online?

1:20:18Hilary Duff:I think there was no way for me to make a record after 10 years and not dig into what those 10 years have looked like, you know, and like the big things that have happened and that affect me and that make me who I am. And unfortunately, a lot of that has been like not great stuff. And that's life. It sucks that I'm not an adult coming out with an album that people don't know my story and all the players in it. You know, people have known everybody in my life since I was on Lizzie McGuire. You know, they know my mom, my sister, my dad. Like we have a small family. People are interested in that.

1:21:08Hilary Duff:for some reason. And it's really sad, you know, the kind of like where we are right now.

1:21:22Hilary Duff:And scary to share it because of like the internet. But important for me, like I'm just saying how it feels for me. And that was something on the record I really tried to accomplish is like not placing blame anywhere. It takes a lot of people for, it takes everybody involved, you know, for things to kind of be where they are. But I was just trying to talk about how it feels like for me and reach people because it's real. And a lot of people share a similar story. And yeah, no, it's never easy to see people speculating on your life for clicks. But it's easier to tune the noise out with like having the household that I have and that like soft landing and that all the love and, you know, I've created that family I'm so proud of.

1:22:23Hilary Duff:Like that makes all of the things that I've been through like okay. Yeah. When you put out songs like that, has it felt cathartic and kind of like chapter close, or are you hoping it could maybe like spark some type of like reconciliation or conversation? My purpose for making my record was for myself. And And I think that like you always hope for something to be healthy again, you know, and something to be good again. But I don't know if like, I don't know if my, me being honest and vulnerable will, you know, be met with openness or anger or what it could, you know, there's many different options.

1:23:20Hilary Duff:there. And I think I had to just let go of an expectation and do what I wanted for me. And that's that. It's a painful thing to talk about. Yeah. It kind of reminds me almost of like you earlier in the interview said, God, I do love doing this so much, but I do love my life and the privacy. And it's almost like - Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but like even since I started like being more like forward facing with my music, like the internet is like a buzz with like everything they can possibly dig up. So it's – It's a lot. Very strange. I have a list of things and I'm like, shit, like you've been a hot topic of conversation, Miss Duff.

1:24:10Like you have been – I'm like, okay, so we go through the family thing. Now, one of literally the noisiest things on the internet. that's why I have to ask just because it's been so freaking noisy it's been everywhere is an article was written about a toxic mom group and it literally took the internet by storm and every single person was talking about it and then through speculation and then people connecting the dots like it kind of I don't really think people had to connect very many dots it took like a day not even right um how did you feel when it came out and when you read it um

1:24:46Hilary Duff:I felt really sad. I honestly felt really sad. I was like pretty taken aback and felt just like sad. I love, I have so many groups of friends. I'm so lucky. Motherhood has brought on, I have my core group of friends who have been my ride or dies for 20 years, 10 to 20 years. And I have like tons of different groups of mom friends because I have four kids, you know? So I think I just was like, whoa, it sucks to read something that's like not true. And it sucks on behalf of like six women in all of their lives. Then the pot got stirred a little bit more. Our boy Matthew posted an Instagram story kind of then addressing back to it.

1:25:40did you know he was going to post this? No. How did you feel when you opened your phone and hubby had chimed in? Honestly,

1:25:55Hilary Duff:everything he does makes me laugh. So I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. But I also don't censor him and I don't tell him what he can and can't post. He is so like fierce for me. And like, I love him for that. Is there anything on that that you want to clarify? Because obviously all the rumors and everything and like you have been in the center of it. Like, is there anything else you want to just like clarify on that topic? No. Okay. I think it came at like the craziest time where I was like my, like the timing felt not great. And I felt used. Like would this have happened had you not had your big resurgence and everything going on with you?

1:26:46Okay. Moving on. Okay. Like we've talked about 10 years since you released an album. So I'm curious if you were to picture your dream life 10 years from now, what would it look like? Whoa. Cool.

1:27:07Okay.

1:27:08Hilary Duff:Anytime I look into the future, I like to think about Thanksgiving and like what the table looks like. Are you hosting? Always. Okay. 10 years. It's November. You're hosting. Yeah. What does it look like? Like my kids have their like boyfriend or girlfriend there or like bestie or what like it's just full. The table's full. The like the seats are full. We're going to play like some dumb game later. We're drinking wine. Like it's just, you know, everyone's there. And so I would like to have toured the world maybe twice. probably made another record and like figured out a way to juggle like having this and also having home life still be, like I can't, it's so fun to watch my kids grow up.

1:28:09Hilary Duff:Like it's just the best thing ever. I love having babies and it's really hard to think about not having a baby in the house anymore. But like as they grow, they just get so cool. So I think I just hope to continue having the relationship that I have with my kids and the home life that I have. But like, I think I'll work, I'll work forever. Everyone's always like, what about the Lizzie McGuire reboot? And I'm like, like, it's not interesting to me at like 40. It was interesting to me at like 30, but like maybe it's interesting at like 55 or 60. You know, like, I don't know, maybe I'm doing that.

1:28:54Listen, none of us are going to be mad at you. We're like, we're ready whenever you're ready. We're like, we'll be, we'll be seated.

1:29:00Hilary Duff:Also, I would love to have more time to just like do the things I want with Matt. Like we get very little time. Prioritize your relationship. Yeah. Can we talk about that a lot? Well, if I see you in 10 years, I'm going to be like, did you do these things? What are you guys doing? I interview you like the day after Thanksgiving. 10 years from now, we'll put on the books. How, if you have any, could you share some advice on, I know you can't do it all, but we are sitting here and like, you've had such a successful career. You are continuing to have such a successful career and you have four kids.

1:29:34And I think there's probably a lot of women that are looking at you being like, it does kind of seem like you have it all and you're doing it all. And like, do you have any advice to women who maybe want to get back into work but are afraid how you manage that with the kids and all of it one i think that was like a huge why for making this record was to inspire i know people aren't

1:29:57Hilary Duff:pop stars not not everybody gets to be a pop star and i'm like eternally grateful that for some reason this was my position in life but i do hope that it inspires moms to get outside of their household a little bit and like find the thing that they love if they've lost it.

1:30:17Hilary Duff:I think it's so important to not be there for your kids every waking moment. I think it's so important for them to have like wins and losses out in the world alone that you're not like privy for, for everything. And that like breaks my heart to say, because I love to be there for all of their things. But like, I think it's healthy. and I've learned that with having four kids because you obviously can't be everywhere all at once and you just have to be like okay I was there for that thing that day I'm choosing this thing this day and I'm you know it's like you've got to make those choices but I feel like my kids are stronger because of it and I never want them to feel guilty for growing up and like leaving me behind.

1:31:02Hilary Duff:I don't. I want to be okay with like. That is like made me like sad and happy at the same time. That almost made me cry. That's really. Yeah. Wow. I think that if you like don't find yourself and stay true to like your some of your needs, you know, then like they eventually leave and you want them to leave and be okay. You know, like I don't have kids yet, but that's like a big fear of mind right i think so many women are probably watching right now because it's like you don't want to lose yourself yeah but then the guilt of like leaving them and it's like yeah it's so ever present for women whether they're in the middle of it or they're expecting to go through it so to hear you be like guys i'm actually living it and like gotta let them go yeah you do and don't and then the other thing that i like want to set straight a little bit is like i you can't have it all.

1:31:58Hilary Duff:You just can't. You can try and you can have a lot of the things that you want, but you're going to miss stuff, you know, and you're going to have to make choices. And I feel so incredibly grateful for everybody behind the scenes of my life right now, helping me achieve this. It is like, I have nannies and an assistant and like hair and makeup people keeping me looking, you know, not like how I look when I wake up in the morning. And my husband and a label and a huge machine behind me that's like making this. Megan Trainor texted me the other day and she's like, babe, you, this rollout has been flawless.

1:32:43Hilary Duff:are you okay and I'm like and I have so much help but it's like still so much you know it's just like a crazy you don't see what goes on behind the scenes because it all looks so shiny and it's like has to I guess but like it's really hard and everyone's taken sacrifices for it you know including my kids no I appreciate you saying that because I think you're right it's like your life does look like a dream right now and it's like you're shiny and sparkly and gorgeous and all of it and it's like no to the women out there like yes I'm living my dream but it comes at a cost and it's hard comes at a huge cost being in the industry comes with a huge cost and it's so hard to complain when your life looks shiny and you have money you know completely but I also appreciate you just letting us into because it's like, again, I think we compare ourselves to women we see online because I'm like, okay, so she's got four kids and she's able to do this.

1:33:44And then you're like, guys, no, no, no, no. Like only because I have a crew and a team and assistants and this, and it's like breaking that barrier and that wall, I think also helps women who maybe are doing it as a single mom alone. You can't afford the assistant. It's like, you've got the hardest job and we bow down to you. Seriously. Bow down to them. Okay, last question. Your fans have stuck by your side for decades. What do you hope you're able to connect with them over in this new era that you're presenting to the world?

1:34:16Hilary Duff:one I just want to say I'm eternally grateful for them I would not have a music career without them I was not like accepted by the music industry by any stretch of the imagination they were rabid for me and my music and like I was of course Lizzie McGuire being that launching pad and them loving me from that. I'm so grateful. Of course, I had my feelings of having to accept that part of my life, but I love her now too, and I connect and I get it. But when I got into music, the fans, I was doing arenas and stuff. And I didn't really have a ton of radio play. And I didn't have like, it just wasn't a thing yet that like actors could just become musicians.

1:35:08Hilary Duff:Like I'm just so appreciative that like my music connected with people and like had legs for 20 years. And then I get to be at a point now in my life where I'm, I can like see what it meant to them and to me. and then just getting to like not be shy about like, I'm not reintroducing myself at all. I think I just needed like a second to like live some life and like they lived a whole bunch of life and now we get to like connect as adults and talk about what the hell that's like. Thank you so much for opening up today. I know we went on like a winding journey. Really? We were in the canyon, babe.

1:35:59We went everywhere and more. And I think, again, like having had you take a break for a while, coming back, like it's so fun to hear about your adult life. I know we did nostalgia, but like I really appreciate you sharing more about what's been going on recently because it is so informative to this album. And I'm so excited for everyone to hear it and to embrace it with open arms and not look at you as this child star, but this woman who has this beautiful family and a career. And that is beyond relatable to my audience for sure. So thank you for opening up and letting us have a little glimpse into your life and everything that's inspired this amazing album.

1:36:38Thank you. Hilary Duff, thank you for coming on Call Our Daddy.

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