How Does Patriarchy Affect Me?

0:02What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Naomi Snyder, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you. Naomi is a practicing psychoanalyst in New York City, and she lectures and publishes on the intersections of social injustice and psychological struggle. Prior to her work as a psychoanalyst, Naomi worked as a lawyer in the human rights field. I actually discovered your work, Naomi, by a recommendation from none other than the great Jane Fonda. Oh my goodness, Jane Fonda has heard of this book. I was really excited. I was like, how on earth did Alex Cooper hear about this book?

0:49And then to hear that it came to you through Jane Fonda, that blows my mind. Wow. She's truly, the day that I met her, I think my life was changed forever. She's incredible. And I know obviously that you and psychologist Carol Gilligan co-authored this book that we're going to talk about a lot today called Why Does Patriarchy Persist? And it was originally published five years ago. And in your opinion, I have to ask, is patriarchy still persisting? Great question. You know, I think before I can even answer the question, the first thing is to really even answer sort of what is patriarchy, right?

1:31To even know like if it's still with us today. And the reason I do that is because in my experience, a lot of people see patriarchy as a shorthand for men versus women. And I think the real like there are many problems with that reductive kind of view of it. But one of the main ones to me is that it sort of completely obscures the cost that patriarchy has for both men and women. So like in terms of thinking about whether patriarchy persists today, I'm really thinking about whether patriarchy persists in terms of like the rules of the game. So not just sort of who are the winners and the losers, but the rules about who can succeed, what success looks like and how one succeeds.

2:12So we define patriarchy in the book as this sort of order of living that puts some men above other men, all men above women. but that it's sort of based on this gender hierarchy and binary. So that like the rules of the game essentially are that in order to be a man and to succeed, you have to disavow all the parts of yourself that the patriarchy deems to be feminine, meaning your emotionality, your relationality, you have to be this kind of stoic, independent, heroic kind of figure. and that the vision of success for you is to be able to take care of others financially and rely on no one else.

2:54So the rules of the game for women, as they've always been and still are today, is that to be a good woman, you have to be selfless. You have to put other people's needs before your own. And it's both shameful and guilt-inducing to put your own needs first. However, to be a successful leader, to make it to the top, that kind of selflessness becomes a liability. so women are kind of faced with this really fucked up situation where it's like oh to be a good leader i have to be autonomous i have to be unemotional i have to be all of these things but to be those things i'm then going to be seen as bitchy or as moany or so it's like to go back to your question five years on does patriarchy persist and and such a great question our biggest fear was that people would say, what the hell are you talking about?

3:46Patriarchy, I wasn't persist anymore. Like you can vote. You've got like, you know, what am I talking about? I've been a lawyer. I've like been to university. Like who am I kidding? And what I would say to that question of like, is it still persisting? I say it's persisting as it always has, but it's now out in the open and it is violent and it is like the gloves have come off. And of course, like we can't talk about patriarchy persisting right now without talking about the jobs decision and the kind of pulling back of women's reproductive rights. I mean, to me, that's sort of some of the standout.

4:20Absolutely. No, I appreciate you walking me through that because I know that obviously all of these, all of the questions I'm going to ask today are so complex and layered and there's years and years and hundreds of years of history that go underneath, obviously, what we're talking about. And I think that's such a great point you made of like, of course, we're allowed to vote. But shouldn't we have been able to in the first place? Like, shouldn't we be considered equal? So I think it's like, yes, we've had progress, but that doesn't mean that we've accomplished all of it. And so I think that when we have this conversation, the sad truth is that some people may be listening to this.

5:02And the minute they heard the word patriarchy, they're like, oh, I'm out. I don't want to listen to this. Like, this is just too much for me. Or, you know, I don't want to hear about this. Could you maybe in like two sentences, and I know this is so fucking hard, because it's like, how do we put it in two sentences? How would you explain the patriarchy to someone who is typically confused by the concept and like just needs like a two line, three line statement about like what it is?

5:45Oh, it's a great question though. One way I have of answering it, say I'm speaking to a woman. I'd say, you know, that voice in your head, when someone's really pissed you off and you're really hurt, you're really angry. and that voice in your head that says, who are you to say that to someone? Like, what right do you have to tell them that you're upset? What gives you the right to hurt someone in that way by like telling them they've done something wrong? To me, that's the way that patriarchy is so alive for so many of us. We don't even see it out in the world. It sort of exists in our head in that way.

6:30I get what you're saying. I think, sadly, if every woman listening to this podcast can pause, it's that self-doubt that is so ingrained in us. You may not even see it as self-doubt. It's just a part almost of who we are in our decision-making at times because it's been so ingrained in us of like, don't cause controversy, don't upset people, be the peacemaker. And obviously, it's hard to identify. That's why this conversation is so like heady for people because it's like, what the fuck is the patriarchy? And it's difficult, but it's an internal thing that we've been raised to have in us. So it didn't just one day appear.

7:11It's literally been since the minute that we were born. Yeah. And you know, it's this helpful that you just said that in such a clear, succinct way, you know, like here's another way that I think it's sort of those invisible things that we take for granted that just like that we see is just the way things are, but actually that's patriarchy. So for example, I'm a new mom, which has taken me into an encounter with patriarchy in a very sort of a live way. And so for example, I was having a conversation with some new mom friends, and we're talking about the way that when our husbands take the babies out, they are met with such applause.

7:48Oh my God, what a great father. Wow. And then like, instead, what we're grappling with is the sort of like side eyes when when we're out in a restaurant with our baby there they're like oh that mom like there's like I don't know having a glass of wine well it's sort of like they're these sort of like invisible like no one's saying anymore women should stay at home and take care of the kids like that's not what's going on and they're these sort of like subtle kind of judgments we face. There's like essentially a hierarchy and a framework that's been designed for what equates to the masculine and the feminine capacities.

8:35And I know you wrote a lot about this in the book, which is like masculine, it's like independent, rational, emotional stoicism. And then feminine, it's like dependence and like emotional sensitivity and caregiving. And so there's a lot of negatives and weakness that are aligned with femininity as opposed to the masculine. And so therefore, it elevates men over all women at all times. I would add one thing to that, that the feminine, it is idealized, but devalued. So caregiving is something that we say, oh, isn't it? She's so selfless. What a wonderful thing. But what do we pay caregivers? Right?

9:16That is like one of the things. It's like, yeah, we think it's great, but it's not valued in the way that men's work, quote unquote, is valued in society. Yeah, that's a great way to say it. I know we lightly mentioned, you know, someone that you asked, like, well, why would someone want to turn this off? And I think that obviously, there are some women that may be listening to this, who don't believe in the patriarchy, or at least they don't believe that it affects them, right they say that they have a great relationship with their boyfriend and they haven't had any issues within their job and they just don't understand what everyone is complaining about and why everyone is constantly pushing the feminist movement and all that what would you say to that person that feels like they haven't been affected yeah again I think my first response would be sort of like I mean wow like tell me your secret right and I you know I really mean that because for some women you know that may be more or less true that in their lives they really have managed to cultivate relationships a work life in which they really feel like these kind kind of archaic norms, like don't affect them.

10:39And so I want to take that person at their word and not presume that I have a better sense of their reality than they do, right? What I've discovered is when you do ask questions, typically sort of what happens is you hear that the story is actually much more complicated and things that that person has just chalked up to, well, that's just life or, you know, this is a problem of mine. Actually, we're like, it's sort of putting a socio-cultural lens to something that they've seen as an individual failing. So for example, like a woman who says, you know, I don't, I don't have any issues in with the patriarchy.

11:20I've like, I used to be a lawyer, I have a lot of lawyer friends and, you know, so it's like, I've like molded up through the ranks and, you know, an issue that now I'm struggling with is my bosses are telling me if I want to make it to that next step, I just have to be more self-assertive. And they say, you know, that's a problem that I've always struggled with. And then it's like them talking about it, we say, actually, no, there are all these external factors that have meant that to be self-assertive has come at a great cost to them. And that it's not just an individual problem of them, but they're up against something very real.

11:55This conversation, there are obviously moments where we can pinpoint a tangible example of patriarchy. And we can comment about, you know, how many times has a woman sat getting ready to get dressed and is like, well, I'll be taken more seriously if I wear this outfit for the interview than if I wear this skirt that I really like that I got the other day. And it's like, well, why are we feeling that we can't wear a nice skirt? Because we're going to be objectified by the men and we're still going to be put in a place where we're not being taken seriously. And so it's like there's moments. And I know that's like the classic one of like the looks and what we wear.

12:37But that's just to like bring it down so people can understand. Like, yes, there are tangibles where you can see it. But I think what we're getting at and what you get at so brilliantly in the book is like patriarchy exists internally. and it shapes how we think and feel and how we perceive and how we judge others and how we judge ourselves and our desires and every relationship that we interact with in the world, it's intertwined in all of those decision makings. And so to start to unravel it, I understand why there are some women that are like, this doesn't affect me. It more just so means that they have found a way to live their life that they're happy with the dynamics.

13:19And I'm not ever judging anyone with that. I think, unfortunately, there are moments in dynamics where the patriarchy is exacerbated. And so many women are like, how am I not getting paid the same as men? That does bother me. And maybe it doesn't bother some women. But I do think for the collective, it's like, we should have enough self-worth and self-esteem that we do fight for that equality for all women, because then it's like the generations to come, our daughters, their daughters, it's never gonna end. And so it's kind of the same thing of when there's a friend that was mean to one friend or a couple of friends and like, well, they weren't mean to me.

13:55It's like, I understand that, but there's also an accountability for the greater good that we need to take. Oh my goodness. No, everything you're saying makes so much sense. I have like so many thoughts and response to it. Like how do you live in a messed up social situation, even one where you're not necessarily one of the biggest victims of. You might be one of the winners in that system, but you still see it. How do you live in a society that is so unfair and not be enraged every day? You have to learn not to see it. And I think that is what is so powerful about patriarchy. You have to learn not to see the inequity.

14:38I want to give a concrete example of this. You're in a relationship with someone who every time you bring up a problem, they say, what is wrong with you? You just nag and nag and nag and you can never let it be. And we were just having a nice time and you brought this thing up and what's your problem? You have to learn to see things from their perspective and switch off your own frustrations in order to not be enraged. Yeah. You saying that also just brought up a thought for me of like, I think there's also this feeling that we are annoying by talking about this and we're complaining and we're not staying in our lane, essentially.

15:24and we're trying to be these like fighters for this good just and like some people look at it like just shut the fuck up like everything's fine like especially coming from like oh like you're a white privileged woman and I understand that however as a white privileged woman using my platform is very important because if I can feel it I can only imagine what the minorities feel and the underprivileged women feel it's like it only is amplified times a hundred and so I get frustrated where I can feel women and even myself in moments straying away from talking about it because it's the same thing when people started to just move away from the feminist movement because it was like I feel like we're just like annoying and people don't take us seriously and like people don't actually want to keep pushing for change and what then ends up happening is there is this divide between women of the women that are like let's just keep it as it is and then the women that are like, this is bullshit because you're right.

16:22When you're in those fights with a man and they're telling you, you're just being really overly sensitive. Like maybe you should take a minute and then come back. Or even in a meeting, the women are not as credible as the men and what the men are saying. And you can't be as assertive and you can't be. And if we're too assertive, we're a bitch. And then they're a boss if they do it. Like there's so many things that are so ingrained in our society that in order for a woman to take a step forward and to try to elicit any type of response in her immediate area, most of the time she's met with disgust and she's pushed away and she's overreactive.

17:01And so it's really hard to do it on your own. And it's infuriating. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot. And you have to, that is the key. Like hold on to that rage. right? Because the rage is what I think propels you to want to do something about it. And you're right. No, it is. It's maddening. It's really, really maddening. From a psychological standpoint, and I know this is basically what your entire book is about slash proving, why is the patriarchy still persisting today? As you say, that's really the question that drove Carol and my working together like because for us it was a conundrum you have all of this research coming out that says basically healthy secure relationships are the key to like psychological and physical health so why is it that patriarchy persists and it doesn't just persist out there as something that we knock off against but it persists in our most intimate relationships right like what the hell is that about?

18:13And basically what we discovered was that in part, patriarchy persists because it serves a psychological function. To be a patriarchal man, meaning a man that sort of disavows, disconnects from his vulnerability, his need for relationships, his emotional life, not only does that give him incredible access to material gain, it offers him a psychological armor in the world. He no longer needs to risk the vulnerability that comes with being an emotional person. Basically, what we found was in a culture where the conditions for healthy relationship are so impossible because there are rules of the game patriarchal norms that kind of shame those relational capacities then becoming the patriarchal man and disavowing your relationality becoming the patriarchal woman who's all about the needs of others there's in addition to all the kind of social capital you gain there's also this sort of like psychological armor that you're now wearing And so it's kind of like that woman who then says, oh, patriarchy might affect you, not me.

19:33I'm totally content. I appreciate you explaining that because that's what I found so interesting in the book is like, we don't act outside of these gender norms out of fear of losing relationships, not being loved, not being accepted. because when we stay in the gender norms, we are able to maintain this level of just equilibrium of like, everything's fine. We'll just, I'll just stay right here. I won't act out. But by subverting, it's like by doing that and not being interested in pushing forward, you then what you're saying, you're detaching from your actual internal needs. And they're so suppressed and they're so below know because above those are what has been instilled in us from the patriarchy of don't act out don't be loud don't be angry don't do this so it's like we don't actually we're not able to locate what do you actually want what actually would make you happy it's very complex and I know there's a lot of layers to it but I love the word detached yeah no I just love that you're saying detached because I think that's what the that is what if anyone is wondering if you're listening to this and you're getting so frustrated, like it doesn't affect me, that probably means you're detached.

20:52Exactly. Yeah. It probably means you're not in touch with what you really want to need, because basically it's a compromise. It's like, look, if this is, if this is as good as it gets, and if complaining about it, if being frustrated about it just means that I don't even get what's good about it, then not only am I going to stop complaining about it, I'm going to stop even knowing that there's anything to complain about. But here's the rub. And I think this is like the really key thing. Yes, it has a psychological benefit. But the point is, reality still exists, you're still getting burned. And that's the problem with these defense mechanisms, you're still getting burned, you just don't even know about it.

21:39It's like, yes, there's something protective about not being in touch with your vulnerability. There's something protective about not being in touch with all the pain and the frustration that comes with unfair treatment. But at the same time, if you're not in touch with any of those things, then you lose all ability to do anything about them, to change them. What we see is all kids are suffering right now. And rather than making that sort of something about social media or something about what's going on with these, what's so messed up with this generation, I'd really want to ask what's going on with our society that we have a whole generation of kids across the gender spectrum that are suffering.

22:28And what's going on that the rates of girls suffering in this way are so much more than boys. Like everyone's suffering, but what is that? If you don't believe patriarchy exists, is it just hormones? Are you going to tell me it's like that? It's such a good point. I love that you just said that because you're so right. It's like you can't dispel the fact that there are so many young women and young girls that are struggling. I mean, all the way down to just like the way we look and how objectified we are. It's like, it's, there's such a fixation on your worth is entangled into the way that you look as a woman.

23:09And again, like not trying to be like graphic here, but like, if you think about like when a woman has like, oh, like I don't have a six pack, like I have like, you know, a little pooch belly and like, I'm eating good and like, leave me alone. And if a man has the same exact thing, he's still considered, you know, he is successful and he's got it going on. And the woman, she's completely devalued. Like, oh, she's not fit. She's not thin. But it's like we see all these men with beer bellies and yet they're still considered attractive because why? But then a woman, it's like you're not even considered beautiful or worthy or no one's attracted to you because you don't fit the exact standard that a man has put as to what women need to look like.

23:51And as women, we have not objectified men in the way that they have objectified us. We have not had the power to objectify them, essentially, because our words are way less impactful and powerful than what the man can do to us. Yeah, I want to add some things to what you're saying. One is, what is it about thinness, right? Yeah. Why is it that, you know, thinness for women, and it's funny, I think we saw a shift and it's like coming back, right? this like a zen pic you know the the life that thing like what is it about thinness and I was with um a friend the other day and I was like you know I think part of it is about that like disavowal of desire women in the patriarchy of women gaining social capital is to disavow desire disavow desire with women whether it's for food whether it's for sex is whatever is shameful so we become more powerful by becoming sexless you know objects of desire with no desire of our own and so it's kind of like the the anorexic there is a huge you know the psychological benefit of the absolute control that comes with that I desire nothing I'm all about the desire of someone else but like wow the suffering that is the the mutilation to the self that is beneath that so it's like i think in a way thinness is the perfect encapsulation of this right no one is going to deny that a thin white woman especially in this culture does not get some huge social capital and yet to get that there's like there's there's both physical mutilation and like desired the very essence of what it is to be human to like to be sexual to eat to have desire but don't you think Naomi when I think about it what's crazy is like another when you said like how can you can't deny the patriarchy exists and I don't know if this is specifically patriarchy but if you think about it's like why historically for women has there constantly been a trend in what body type is desirable.

26:03And then we see people injecting, putting fake butts in and then getting ribs removed because the hourglass is in and now the straight board, no hips is in. When has ever there been a body standard that has shifted every decade for men?

26:37you know it's such a good point it's like i would say that one of the things that you're talking about is this gender binary and hierarchy again men have mind body split right and so the mind is gendered masculine and that is what's valued about them women it's all like they're just bodies, but just vessels, either objects of desire or containers of life, right? I mean, in a way, it's like, you're so like, yeah, that's such a good point. In a way, it doesn't really matter what the standard is. It's the fact that throughout, like it changes constantly. But the fact is, it's the thing that women have been judged by the whole, like the whole time is right.

27:20What you've got to say is kind of beside the point is how you look. You said something before, and I want to actually get to a conversation of women versus women, but something you said about how men are able to have a body and mind split. And women, it's like a lot of our self-worth comes from how do we look our body and not just even from our own self-worth. It's how do we have like human capital in the world? Like how are we when we walk into a room, if you look a certain way, you're going to have advantages. I just feel so bad because when you think about it, how so many men, of course, I'm not negating the fact that there are so many men that have insecurities, but the amount of men that wake up in the morning and don't think about their body in the way that women do.

28:07if we were able as women to get to a place where body and mind were separate yes that rate of suicide for young women would probably be changed the mental health issues that women are having would probably at least be lightly alleviated because what we're saying is like why have women been so pigeonholed into like I remember getting made fun of by boys of like you have no but you have no butt when I was in high school. And back then it was like, there were celebrities that were really getting rising to fame with like butt injections and everyone, all the guys were like, a girl with a butt is like the hottest thing.

28:45Now it's like, oh my gosh, like skinny model. It's like, why are we subject to change based off of what a man is allowing to be the, what is sexually attractive. And then we all just have to go get our injections or go get this. And then if you don't, it's like, well, then you are just not attractive. And it's really awful. How much it affects us, men will never understand because they have never had a body norm that they've had to conform to. Yeah, I mean, it's a really good point. I think a couple of things. One is like, sure, like men have insecurities, they're human, right? The difference is where those insecurities are rooted, and how they're able to manage them, right?

29:25So from a man who's insecure about his body he can compensate in all sorts of ways right whereas the difference for a woman is it's not just her inner insecurity it's the fact that that's being fed back in the world that she lives in it's that your thinness affects your ability to get a job as a woman it's not like it's not just about like oh did I feel good in myself yes and so and also like schlubby guys are able to have great relationships right or you know it's like it doesn't really impact their their social capital and also their like their attractiveness no whereas for women it's like it's huge and I think it's dehumanizing I would like to know though as we're talking about this and you lightly brought this up.

30:17Like, what is your psychological understanding of why the patriarchy pits women against one another? How on earth can patriarchy persist without creating competition among women, without pitting some women against other women? It's sort of like, it's integral to the whole thing. If women joined other women in supporting all women, then the patriarchy wouldn't stand a chance there's more of us than them right right one of the ways that patriarchy does this is it splits women into the good women and the bad women right the women that are worthy of respect protection and some sort of like value it creates a culture of competition where we're all vying for a limited social capital.

31:09It's not just that women are subject to violence. It's that women that don't play the game aren't even worthy of attention. I think a question I have that may piss some people off, but I was just thinking about this. There are people that the internet and the world right now really deem as like, these women have set such an unrealistic body, expectation and image that a lot of young women don't feel like they can live up to, whether it was they got surgery on their butt or their hips or their face, whatever it is. And there's like a specific group of women. I think a lot of people are constantly saying like, you are fucking up young women.

31:50My question is, is it their fault though? So funny that you say this. I was just scrolling on my phone earlier and saw this like article that was about, cause this is the group, right? The Kardashians that are so much like kind of the, poster child for what you're saying. And it was a criticism of Kylie Jenner, who I think it was in season three, was like, I really regret the ways in which I've changed my body to conform to these beauty standards. And I don't want my daughter to do the same thing. And I think part of the problem is that when we don't see patriarchy, we just see it as individual women.