How to Spot a Narcissist in Dating

28:05What does it mean when you're not chasing someone? What does it mean when somebody is there and loves you? You may not even trust it or you may even devalue it. So there's a lot of deep diving that a person has to do. I hate to say it, but I think steady, not up and down relationships don't have a good brand. I mean, we don't make movies about them, right? If we don't have a movie about two people meet and they're really respectful and nice to each other and they're kind and nothing dramatic happens and then they fall in love and then they decide they're going to spend their lives together and they keep going steady and who watches that movie?

28:39I know. Maybe, but nobody else is going to watch that. They want drama. They want triangulation. They want infidelity. They want the, not that anyone wants to be cheated on, but when we're entertained by relationship movies, we want excitement. And I think that sometimes that boundary between what we need in our real lives and what we're sort of drawn to, I'm sure, watch an exciting movie about a relationship, but that doesn't mean you should be in one. Listen, we watch movies about war. It doesn't mean we want to fight in one. So I think it's the same thing is that we have gotten so many twisted messages about relationships and that can really, really be pronounced for a person who's had these cycles their whole life.

29:18I don't even want to call these relationships boring. I think that's unfair to them. Stable, consistent, predictable, secure. Those are the words I would use. Yeah, and I agree with you. I think they've gotten a bad reputation. But I also think again, like everyone listening, there is a difference where I have in the past met such an incredible guy or many guys that were great. And I did find it boring. But because there wasn't a spark there where I was, whether I wasn't sexually attracted to them, or I didn't feel a spark when we kissed, like, that is the differentiator between then my relationship I am now is in the is the healthiest relationship I've ever been in.

29:56And of course, there's moments of push and pull and compromise. And of course, we argue it's a relationship. That would be crazy if we didn't argue. But the point is, is that there's a consistency of respect. And there's a consistency of who we are when we show up to the relationship. I don't wake up one day and look at my partner and be like, who are you? Wait, like you're acting completely like, so there's stable in the sense that you don't have constantly a pit in your stomach and you don't constantly wonder who you're going to get that day that you're dating. And it's that there is like something so romantic about being able to then explore all different parts of life with someone that you actually know is solid and respects you.

30:41And there is, there is a bond between you that is not based off of the craziness of a fight. And then we get back together and in a fight and we get back together because actually how do you feel when you're alone at night and you're sleeping like you're just thinking about your next move and your next text and the next fight so it's actually way more fun to have a stable relationship because then even when you do argue it's healthy arguing it's you want to get to the bottom of it and come back together where toxic arguing is like where are we going with this we're just getting off by it just to get off on it and we become addicted to something that does nothing but deteriorate our self-worth and our self-esteem right and it's it's a toxic cycle so i agree it's like stable is the word but even stable relationships aren't stable at times you go through shit but it feels better and it doesn't feel so life or death and it doesn't feel like you are no longer a full human being and it's chipping away at you every fight that you have that's right And it takes a minute to get there because like I said, we do that, that kind of volatility really, really does get associated and kind of stuck with this idea of love.

31:53So there's a whole process of separating out that this kind of stability is so, is so good. And listen, there are other things to consider, you know, many, many, I'm, you know, many of you, I'm a mom, but my kids are teens now. How, what kind of parent would this person be? right so this volatility may be sexy and bad but do you want this coming at your child if they spill a glass of milk really i mean you may if you don't want kids that may it may not be that conversation you could be pets do you want this person screaming at your dog or your pet no and so it's really asking yourself that if you can sort of extend that out but there is also too alex that the the other struggle that many people go into dating not valuing themselves not you know not holding a matthew hussey talks about standards you know not holding those standards for themselves because they don't think they deserve them they don't think they almost deserve a healthy respectful relationship and there's a sort of a risk of well maybe this is as good as it gets this is how i grew up there's this maybe this is all it is and if i don't go along with this then maybe i will be alone forever and i gotta tell you having worked with people who survive 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 year narcissistic relationships, most of them would say alone forever would have been so much better than having endured this.

33:12I couldn't agree more.

33:31maybe also to help because we're talking you know dating and it's a little hard to be like is this person narcissistic like maybe they had a bad day like i don't know let's talk about fighting. What do fights look like in a narcissistic relationship? So funny you're asking me this question. This morning I was preparing a deck for a seminar I'm doing tomorrow. It was exactly on this question. Oh, beautiful. Yes, great. So I'm set up for this. Okay. So in a healthy argument, and I want to tell you another interesting thing about the research on relationships is arguments actually mean a relationship is good because it means you have enough skin in the game to get into it with someone.

34:11When a relationship is sort of dead on the vine, you're like, I actually don't care. You go, go, go sleep with someone else. Like, I'm good. Like just not with, don't, don't be here. That that's a relationship that's done. But to argue with something means that there's, again, there's skin in the game. There's, there's a goal you can perceive. Now, all of that said in a healthy argument, you use I statements. It's not, it's you, you never start a sentence with you because that's always going to be accusatory, right? So ideally, at least 90 % of your sentence, I feel angry, I feel heard, I feel unseen, I feel frustrated, you know, and using feel statements too, because that is sort of taking ownership for your experience in it.

34:50Never, ever, ever using disparaging verbally abusive language, you're a B word, you're an effing A, you know, all of that, you don't want any of that kind of obscenity kind of thrown at someone because it is abusive. You know, obscenities during an argument actually do qualify as that. Now, some people say, listen, that is a language we bandy about in our relationship. Okay. But then there's just, it's going to get leveled up to obscenities that you don't ordinarily account for in a relationship. So there's that piece of it too. I would say, obviously anything that even is in the neighborhood of threat.

35:27And what I mean by threat is not that they're going to pull out a weapon, though that could happen, but it's also things like, you know, I'm going to go harm myself. I'm going to storm out. I'm leaving here and I'm not coming back. I am going to make a mess of your life. I'm going to tell your family the truth about you. I'm going to share whatever secret you shared with them, other people. There's a menace that's put out there, even if they don't act on it, right? They don't harm themselves. So they don't harm, you know, they don't share your secrets with others that they keep bringing out that menace.

35:56like, oh, I wonder what your boss would think about if they knew da-da-da. And so it's almost like they've always got this collateral intel on you that they are implying that they'd be willing to use. It's bringing back old grudges. 10 years ago, you did this. 15 years ago, you did that. Six months ago, you did that. So when it's constantly cycling back to these old arguments, that's unhealthy. Deflection is unhealthy. Okay, so I see. We're going to talk about me working late? Let's talk about two years ago at your friend's engagement party when you didn't call me back. Well, no, actually we're talking about the working late schedule and how that threw off our house guests.

36:36So we could file that away, but that constantly trying to pull you off into these other directions to throw you off the course. Gaslighting is not healthy. Telling you that never happened. I never said that when they did. And then they treat you as though you're insane. there's something wrong with you, you're disturbed, you need help, all bad, bad, bad arguments. Now, healthy arguing is the I, the I feel, I am, you communicate from the perspective of I, you let them speak without interrupting, you do not roll your eyes, you face them while you talk, You do not look away. They do not talk at your back.

37:19You are paying attention to them. Eye contact as they're talking to you. So there is that form of, there is a place of connection. If you feel it's escalating to a point where you're saying, I'm having trouble actually hearing this and processing this, give yourself, say, I'm not, I don't want to, never storm out, never slam a door, but say, I need a minute. I'm just going to step outside for a second. I just need to, I need to catch myself. I don't want to say something hurtful. So like find those places where you can regulate. But it is about holding space, taking ownership, taking responsibility when you need to, not always, but with a narcissist, a healthy argument is literally impossible.

38:01If you start taking ownership, they're going to say, yeah, everything's your fault. So you've kind of painted yourself into a corner. If they start gaslighting you, I don't think there's a healthy direction you can go into except to disengage. So healthy arguments are actually quite great. Like it's really a sense of, and I'm not saying you're being nice to each other. You're doing things like still facing you, but I am having a really hard time with what you're saying. How can you have screwed up this holiday? I just said you. And then, because we're not going to be perfect. And they'll say, how did I screw up this holiday?

38:33And say, we talked 17 times about how this Christmas we were going to blah, blah, blah. And we even made the reservations. I am so confused by this. this was really important to me. You're taking ownership, taking ownership. This was important. This wasn't okay, but you're exasperated. It's showing on your face. I'm not saying you need to look like you're totally composed the whole time. You're going to look exasperated. You might sometimes make use statements. If you can get 80 % of it right, you're doing well, but it is not possible to have healthy conflict with a narcissistic person. It's just not possible.

39:10And so people end up blaming themselves saying, I did everything you said. I used the I statements. I took a second to breathe. I kept facing them and it didn't work. I'm like, this is not going to work there. Right, right. No, and I also love how you said, like, of course, when you're in a healthy dynamic and a stable relationship, you're going to argue. But if you're also seeing this pattern, like someone listening, like, do you ever feel like you leave an argument and you felt like you both took some ownership? or is it always on you? Are you always the one that did something wrong and you are the problem?

39:46Then you're not in a partnership that that person is allowing you and themselves to own what you, whenever there's an argument, so you can take some ownership usually in it, especially in a partnership. And even if you don't want to, I just find there's always something of trying to understand your partner. There's compromise, there's having an understanding and empathy for them if they fucked up or whatever it is. But with a narcissist, it feels like every single time the person in the narcissistic relationship is just gonna feel like, I guess it is my fault. And because they want to keep chipping away at you and then you just start to become like not your full self.

40:28And then every argument, you lose a little bit more of yourself if you keep believing what they are saying about you. Everything is my fault. Maybe I am not good. Maybe I am a bad partner. Maybe I don't give him enough attention. And it's like, whoa, hold on. You just came to him because he cheated. How are you the one at fault? You know what I mean? You brought up gaslighting. And that obviously is a word that a lot of people are using these days. And if you are in an argument, let's say with a narcissist, and they are gaslighting you, because I can imagine so many of my listeners are women who may be in a relationship with a narcissist.

41:06And they're like, I don't know how to handle this. Like, what is the best way to respond? And you mentioned disengaging, but can you talk a little bit more about that and what that means and looks like? So you're never going to win with a gaslighting person head on. You're not. Because it's a tactic for them, right? And they're not, it's not a, let me put this, let me go backwards a minute. If someone's lying to you and all they're doing is lying to you, you may actually be able to get them on the same page as you. Okay. Because not all lies are malevolent or, you know, or harmful. Somebody, you might say to someone, Hey, you said you were going to, I don't know, you were going to get this thing done by Saturday.

41:50I never said that. And then you pick up your phone and say, here's the text. That's why I didn't make another arrangement. and they'll say, oh my gosh, I totally forgot that text. That was irresponsible. So they denied it at first. That first thing they said, I never said I'd help you on Saturday. And then you go into the text and you show them the evidence and they don't lose it on you. That's not gaslighting. That might literally be, we do this to people all the time. They're saying, didn't you get my email? I'll say, I never got your email. And you go into your inbox and I'm like, oh, I guess I did get your email.

42:17I'm so sorry. Right. But we immediately take ownership. We apologize. And we'll say, I'm so sorry, I did not check. I should have checked first. When that happens, that's not gaslighting, right? That is sort of the normal mind slippages we have. And you immediately take ownership when it's brought up, or even if you don't have the evidence, an email or a text, and someone says, hey, I sent you an email and say, you know, I don't remember getting it, but you said you did. So I'm sure it's in here somewhere. So you don't even go look for it, but you say, you're telling me you did this. So it's possible.

42:48I'm not saying, no, you didn't, because I don't remember seeing it. So those are not gaslighting situations. And many times, not many, sometimes when you show a lie or the evidence, they'll say, well, I didn't, you know, you caught me or listen, I'm, I'm, that was gross of me to lie about that. I was really anxious about, I thought you would, I thought you'd get really mad at me or I thought you'd break up with me or whatever. They'll give you the reason and they'll say that wasn't okay. I did lie and I shouldn't have, and then you decide what you want to do with that, right? Gaslighting, whole different game.

43:17So when a person gaslights you and that never happened, I never said that, you know, and then you say, but you did and here it is. And then you show them the text and they say, wowie wow. So now our relationship is the Supreme Court. Is that what it is? You want me to go dig up all the other evidence on you? Great. I've done paranoid before. I'm not doing this again. Now you're dealing with this onslaught of you're in a crazy person because you showed them a text. now you're defending no no no listen it's not that i'm trying to be like gotcha i just i want us to communicate now the whole thing's deteriorated because you were trying to get this thing worked out for saturday and now you're having an argument about how you're a paranoid crazy person right doesn't feel good if at that point you turn to the person and said hey you know what when you do this you're gaslighting me don't they won't say well golly gee i never meant to do that i don't want No, they're going to say, oh, is that what you're doing?

44:13You're watching videos. Did you learn that on Instagram? Is that where you learned that? Oh, yeah, I'm so abusive. No one could date you. You are a ridiculous person. I feel like a babysitter, not a boyfriend. So now you're like, ah, that made things worse. So really, it's so simple. You never call out a gaslighter. So what do you do instead? Number one, you got to register. I'm dealing with a gaslighter. Now, one gaslight does not a narcissist make, one gaslight does not a gaslighter make. People might do things, again, to save face, to get out of a situation. The really noxious part of gaslighting, though, isn't the denying the thing happened, it's the going after you.

44:59That part is hard to, if you experience that even two or three times, you got a problem. And then you've got to decide what you want to do with that problem, because I've rarely seen chronic gaslighting improve in a person. And when they get feedback, they shout at the other person. So there's really no getting anywhere with them. It's how that person maintains their sense of identity. I'm great. You're not. So you're going to do whatever you, the narcissist is going to do whatever they need to do to protect that sense of greatness. So I do think that with gaslighting, there isn't much you can do.

45:32And what happens sadly is your sense of reality starts to erode. And the only thing that often sets the ship straight for people who are being gaslighted is A, if there's a witness, right? So somebody watches it, B, they come into therapy. The amount of times I've just sat and read people's old text messages, my clan will say, yeah, no, you did say that you were gaslighted, you know, that they come in for confirmation or you have a friend who will say, you're being gaslighted. It can feel good to have that confirmation, but it still feels devastating that not only is it happening in your relationship, there really isn't a lot you can do.

46:05So by disengage, I do mean at those times, if it's very clear, you're being gaslighted, very clear that that's a point where you're like, okay, for you, this conversation is largely done. Now, what your bigger problem now is to figure out a solution for Saturday, whatever that thing was like, we had to get boxes or whatever. Don't waste your time. There will be waves and waves of grief of, oh my God, I'm in a relationship with a gaslighter. I might be in a relationship with a narcissist. What am I going to do? And I got to move the boxes on Saturday. But in that moment, getting into it is just going to make it worse.

46:40And then it's really about weighing out what does this mean? But I know a lot of people can't just snap out of relationships. Obviously, it's an early dating relationship. Pay attention. I mean, if you can get out without too much damage to you don't have kids, you're not living together, you're not married, get out. But if you've been in it for a long time, a lot of people don't have that option. And then it's that grief of realizing, I've been enduring this for years, really what's the path forward? To the degree it's early in the relationship, this really, really needs to be a wake-up call.

47:14It is not sustainable or tenable to have a meaningful, deep, healthy, close relationship with somebody who is a gaslighter. It's just simply not. You can have a relationship, but it's just not going to be deep. It's not going to be safe. And it's not going to be trustworthy. Even hearing you when you were giving an example of what it would sound like if someone was coming at you and gaslighting you, it's triggering to even hear because it's such a manipulation and distortion of your reality in the moment. And you're so taken off guard because, again, they will weaponize their communication of you're talking about one thing.

47:50And again, then you're like, well, no, you texted me this. And then they spin it back on you somehow. And then when you were somehow bringing up something that they did that hurt you, now all of a sudden it's your fault. And so I just feel so bad for people that get into these dynamics because every fight then again, chips away at your self-esteem because you're constantly not being able to hold your reality as a reality because they're taking it away from you and they're making you feel it almost can drive you insane and crazy where you're like, wait, what? Like, how is this now my fault? Like what?

48:24And so and then you can just keep going. And usually I feel like if you get into that cycle, and you don't disengage, you can just start to really become depleted. But then again, it almost weirdly becomes, I don't want to say intoxicating. But the more that you linger, and you allow it to continue to distort your reality, and that becomes normal, it's so, so difficult to get out of that cycle because your, your self worth is at an all time low. And, and then as we know, with narcissists, then they'll pick you back up to then drop you back down. And, and you don't have an ability to like regulate your own ability to know your reality and, and your worth.

49:09It's all kind of like predicated on what they're feeling that day. And it's, it's sick. I mean, can you just I know, we've talked about this before. But to anyone that's new listening here, like, what types of people attract a narcissist? And I hate saying attract, because it's not their fault. But like, just someone that may tend to happen to get into a relationship with one. Yeah, your timing is so great. I have this healing program for people healing from narcissistic abuse. And every time I'm, you know, and I'll, people want to check it out. They can dive. But this month in our program, we've been talking about is literally on this issue of what are the backstories and vulnerabilities that make you vulnerable to these relationships.

49:51So here's the thing. If I were to tell you all the things that make a person, if you will, vulnerable to a narcissistic person, at the end of the day, it's everybody on the planet. Really, it is. Because you've got one side of the story, which is our backstories, which could be anything from coming from a narcissistically abusive family, having a history of trauma, coming from a happy family, being a rescuer, being a forgiver, being very positive, being in a time of transition, you move to a new city, being in a rush, I have to have a baby. All of these things make you vulnerable to a narcissistic relationship.

50:28Why? Because they get you stuck. The getting in, Alex, we're all vulnerable. As much as charismatic people scare the hell out of me, I think we're not ever going to get to the era where people are like, stay away from charming, charismatic people, right? It's just not going to happen. It's considered a really valuable quality. And so it's almost the pay attention. So what happens is all these backstories we have, these things about us, all of us are attracted to them. It's this stuff that gets us stuck in them. And the stuck is bigger problem than the attracted, if that makes sense, right? Attracted, attracted, right?

51:04I'm attracted to you. I've met you. I've spent an hour with you. Ew, I'm out. Okay, fine. But if you're making excuses and you're trying to fix things, you're trying to rescue them and you keep forgiving them and your own wounds and your own trauma bonds are at play, that's the stuff that means you're not going to see the red flags or you're not going to see the warning signs or you're going to make excuses for them, right? So it's a stuckness thing. We also have to account for personality. There's interesting research out there by folks like Sandra Brown and stuff who talk about this idea of agreeableness.

51:36Now, an agreeable personality is a personality of somebody who's empathic, modest, humble, kind, helpful, follows the rules. I've taken the test. I'm a very agreeable person. so what's the problem i love that i i love i wish i could just create a whole world full of agreeable people never going to happen and in fact the opposite of agreeableness is antagonism which is narcissism the antagonistic people or narcissistic people love agreeable people because they can get away with so much and the agreeable people are so sweet like wow you're so smart you're amazing you're so cool like that that's what an agreeable person does a sweet people right and so that personality stat, it's not that the narcissistic person's like, let me find all the agreeable people in the room.

52:22But when they find someone who not only are they attracted to for whatever reason, but they also know they can shape them, agreeable people are vulnerable to that, to being shaped in that way. So those are the things that make us sort of vulnerable to these relationships. But the other thing that makes us vulnerable is we're told charm, charisma, confidence, success are all the most important things, right? You know this, Alex, better than I do. How many times have people say, what's on your list? What's your checklist? What are you looking for? And I'm like, everything on this checklist is not good.

52:58Like, I need your checklist to be respect, compassion, kindness, mutuality, holding space. That's what I need your checklist to be. When the checklist is likes to hike, went to a certain university, has a certain job, makes a certain amount of money, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is, I'm never going to be out of a job. And this is just going to keep going, right? I mean, I'm always imagining like agreeable people Tinder. Like, what would that look like? Like kind of just helping people, not so hot and just nice. And like, how can I be respectful of your boundary? Like, I want to start agreeable people Tinder.

53:36I'm telling you now. And that no one would be hooking up because everyone would be so respectful. we're gonna look online soon and dr romani be like i launched a new dating app you have to number one have at some point in your life been in therapy you have to be constantly working on yourself to enter honestly that is like actually wow do it alex alex you're the one can you imagine launch an empire it's all you so you do that make sure you mention me and send me a check every time i will i will you're gonna have equity but it is that like can you imagine if you had a dating app where only people with agreeable score agreeableness scores over a certain level were together would actually be kind of great because those people if an agreeable person finds an agreeable person they're not gonna have a lot of money because agreeable people actually make less money but my goodness they're just gonna be good to each other and kind and loving and sweet.

54:32And it's actually harder. Agreeable men have a harder go of it because they do make less money. They're often minimized for emotionality or being a sucker because they're being nice to everyone, but they're just good. They're good men. They're good people. There are a lot of good men and good people out there and they're agreeable. And so all of that, because of the charm and the charisma, we're all attracted to them. So I don't even know what they're attracted to us. So it goes to the next level. The thing that they're attracted to in us is it could be things like how we look or, you know, physical, our physical attractiveness, our status that we bring to the relationship.

55:05Did you go to a fancy university? Do you have a big job? Do you have a lot of money? Did your family have a lot of money? Do you live in a cool part of town? Do you have contacts that are cool? Are you like, there's something that draws them to you that is in, that brings up things, like I said, status and all of that, and that they get, they're getting some some juice from it could be a person who's a lot older who stakes out a much younger partner that they know they can dominate and control and that would look good to the world it's somebody who might be having a moment of fame whatever it is when a narcissistic person is sort of seeking someone out it's usually on the basis of status yeah i'm just curious and you don't have to answer this but did you have anyone because obviously you're such an expert on this Like, did you have anyone like very close to you in your life at some point that was a narcissist?

55:56Girl, let's go. Family, romantic relationships, workplace relationships, friendships, pick a category. I know, you know, what's fascinating about it too? People are like, is that why you got into it? I'll say, what's so bizarre is when I first got into it, it was like a research issue. and then I was at a private practice and I never was connecting my experience to theirs. So I actually find that disconnect. It wasn't like I am going, I was hurt by someone. I have to tell you, it wasn't until ways down the road and I was in a particularly narcissistic relationship that it finally dawned on me like, Ooh, this is wait a minute.

56:37Let's connect you back to this. And it was almost like the final puzzle piece. It was like Tetris and the whole thing collapsed. And I'm Like now I get it. But it's been in so many areas of my life and they still are. Like someone will say, oh, Dr. Romani, you must not have any narcissistic relationships in your life. Hell, I don't. Lots. And I mean, some for cultural reasons, I can't remove these people from my life or familial reasons. Some I've got to work with them. In some, I don't know. It's sort of like I am able to do some cherry picking and saying like, oh, I'm not going to share my, I'm not going to share my confidences with this person.

57:14I'm definitely not going to go on vacation with this person, but I think I could probably have a civil conversation with them for an hour. I don't particularly like them, but it's not like I can't function. And I have to function with them because they're either like a friend's partner, or they're like a friend of a friend, or, you know, someone is someone is my kind of like in a workplace affiliation. So I have a lot lot of these people in my life still hurt me. And I but I know I can't get out. And when I'm hurt, as I will tell anyone who is in a narcissistically abusive relationship, you've got to be kind with yourself.

57:47I mean, it's something where I you have to remind yourself, I recently had such an experience. And I had to say, Okay, Ramadi, you just went through it, you know what this is, do what you tell them to do. And it might be go to sleep early, it might be read something I want to read. It might be just cry it out. It doesn't feel good. There's a lot of grief. And that can be really profound if it's a family member or an old, old friend or a sibling, certainly if it's a long-term partner. But any of these relationships can be contaminated. I can't tell you, for example, Alex, how much it's a long-term friend.

58:20Like, we've been friends since junior high. And now it's clear this person's really narcissistic. But we've been friends since junior high. They feel like a keeper of my history. I don't know, I'm ready to just sort of let this person go. But my gosh, they're not nice to me. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. Because, and maybe we can even do another episode at one point on like one having it made me think of like, if your boss is narcissistic, and it's a huge job that you have, and you obviously have to navigate having someone that you have to report to that's narcissistic. And then also I think having narcissistic parents is something that we could do a whole series on.

59:03But my last question for today, I think is like, aside from just romantic relationships, someone that's listening that is really relating to you right now, like I have a lot of relationships in my life that I'm realizing are, yes, bordering narcissism. And I don't really know how to begin to even like navigating boundaries and how to can't cut them fully out of my life. But like, how do I alleviate a little bit of the pain that I'm feeling from this person? Like, what advice do you have? So a couple of things. I mean, there are some, first of all, know what it is. It's not, it's not the gotcha of like, I need to know, is this person a narcissist?

59:43You actually know, you don't. If you're feeling invalidated, manipulated, gaslighted, not seen, not heard, and really, frankly, in your body, like, I feel off balance after I spend time with this person. I don't feel good about myself. I feel uncomfortable. Not saying that they're narcissistic per se, but they may really be an unhealthy person for you. Pay attention to that. Just like if somebody put like a contaminated drink of something in front of you, like, I don't know that I trust that. I'm not going to drink it. It's the same thing with people. So number one, to be aware that it's not about the, I need to know if this person is this thing.

1:00:19No, you don't. You already know that this doesn't feel good. Okay. But so now you have to, you have to have interactions and you have to have encounters with this person is first of all, if you are starting to suspect that this is who this person is and you do need to have an encounter with them, prepare for it. Like you almost like sit in the car on the elevator on the way up, whatever it is, you you sit there and you think, okay, we're going in. I've got to stay focused. I cannot get into the, I can't get into the whole gaslighting, you know, all that. In fact, I often give people a technique.

1:00:53We might've even talked about this in our first conversation together. I say, don't go deep. If you get into it with them, don't defend yourself. Don't explain yourself. Don't engage with them and don't personalize it. It's not about you. This is what they do to everyone. But then, you know, like, okay, if they start going in, I'm not getting into this with them. So you prepare, like, I know what I'm getting into. I'm going to be mindful. I'm going to be on my game, but I'm not going to let myself get sucked into this. After these kinds of encounters, you don't feel good, right? So after the encounter is done, you may find yourself then feeling wrung out and depleted and your bandwidth is shot.

1:01:34So do something like say to yourself, okay, I can't just walk right back into the office. I shouldn't take a high stakes meeting right now. I might need to maybe take a drive or take a run or take a nap or talk to a friend or call my therapist, whatever it is you do at a time like I've been totally stretched too thin. In fact, I'd even say I've told clients of mine, if you can get the time with me, if you are going to have a really narcissistic thing happen, try to schedule me for within the hours after that. It can help to process it. It's not always possible for everyone. I get that. But do something afterwards.

1:02:07You need to recognize that you just went through something and your nervous system needs to come down. That sort of bookended approach can really, really matter. Another thing is surround yourself with good people. Having social support is such a hedge against the harm that these relationships can do to us. when you have your sane people and you have your healthy people. And here's what's so interesting to me about narcissistic abuse. People say, well, maybe the person is just depressed just because they're in a bad relationship. What I see with folks who go through these relationships is they can actually be laughing and having a wonderful time when they're with healthy people, but it's only with that narcissistic person that they're like this.

1:02:45A depressed person would actually be having a hard time all around if there's a difference. And so I think that when you have good people, you feel seen, you feel heard, you feel valued. There will be grief that it's not happening in this other relationship, but these other healthy spaces can buttress you, can help you feel stronger and healthy. So cultivating those, because it's very easy to become isolated and feel ashamed if you have narcissistic relationships, cultivating those other spaces can really, really be so important in terms of having a hedge against this. And again, that not personalizing it part is big.

1:03:20This is really them. It's not you. This is how they are with everybody. They do a number on everyone. It's their stuff. They have the option to work on it. If they choose not to, you don't need to be their emotional support animal. You do not need to be their punching bag. That is so helpful because I love also how you just said like taking a minute before you see that person that you know, again, we don't have to be like, they are narcissistic. And like, do they make you feel really bad about yourself and you somehow feel like oh my god i spiral every time i'm with them i'm just defending myself and i'm it's like if that's the case take a minute before you go into that room and also i love that you say don't go deep don't get into the weeds don't let them pull things out of you that when the minute you're like wait i didn't want to talk about this sometimes you can just be silent and just nod your head and let them just spiral but don't use your energy because actually your energy fuels them even more and then it just elevates so you trying to keep it like my therapist always said the calmer you are is always better especially when you're dealing with someone that's heightened you just stay steady and calm and one but i'll say an aside to that though i totally agree to stay calm one of the struggles people have though is they'll say i stay calm and the narcissistic person gets really worked up right they don't like when you're calm yep they're frothed up because now they're the ones who look like they're all over the map that's not a good look remember narcissistic people are about perfection that's why in dating it's so tricky because they want you to be perfect they want the relationship to be perfect everything has to be perfect perfect perfect so if they're screaming at you that's not perfect so they're trying to get you to get into it with them so you look as unhinged as they do right when you don't do that and you're staying calm a lot of people will say they start coming for me they start saying terrible things and they'll say the common one is like oh is that your little calm voice is it did you learn that from your therapist and you'll it's that kind of dismissive contempt that sometimes people feel like this is almost making it worse they're saying meaner things to me i always tell folks if you can get over that kind of tidal wave of them getting meaner then at some point they're going to get bored.

1:05:34Yeah. Because you're not giving them the stuff, the juice, the supply, and then they're going to sort of be like, so they, they, but that could take months or even years to get to. And it's hard. And I once had a friend say to me, she said, you know, Dr. Ramani, it's tough for me because you're telling me, like, I, sometimes I feel like this doesn't feel good to not actually stand up to this person. I'm a stand up to this person kind of gal. That's what I do. What do I do? I say, listen, if you're a stand up to this person kind of person and you feel going calm or quiet or disengaging is not your authentic self, go ahead and get in there, but recognize this is going to be a cage match.

1:06:10Like this is going to be the fight of your life. If you're up for that, then I don't, I'm not, I don't want anyone to feel like I have to cease being myself, which you kind of do if you want to survive in one of these relationships. Some people happen to be built for a fight who even some agreeable people, it's pretty rare, but some people are built for a fight. They're scrappy and there's nothing wrong with that. So they feel like I'm not holding back I said yes but it's going to be a storm so I say things like make sure there's no kids around it's really overwhelming for children to see this make sure you're not like messing up someone's wedding or party you know what I'm saying like yeah but that you know not everyone can do this and so I think staying calm is great but it can escalate you have to be prepared totally no and I appreciate you explaining that because I feel like I would be the type of person that was like I can't be calm and I want to just go at them but again just reminding yourself that you are very sane and you have empathy and you have emotions and you have like an understanding and self-awareness.

1:07:05And so when you're fighting with someone that doesn't have that, you eventually, sure, you're going for five minutes, you're fighting, you're fighting, you're fighting. Eventually you are like, we're not getting anywhere. And I feel like the narcissist is like, oh, exactly, let's keep it going. Let's keep not going anywhere. I'll stay here for 20 fucking hours because it's like, they're basically like verbally masturbating on you. They're getting off to this. This is so exciting to them where then a sane person starts to be like, hold on, hold on. Like now we're not getting anywhere. Exactly. So go in and do your fight, but don't maybe have any expectations of clarity or closure other than for yourself that you set up for yourself.

1:07:45No, no, no, no. And in fact, to your masturbation kind of example, there's something I always tell people. What they're doing is baiting you. They're trying to bait you into a fight. They're masturbators. Yes. Yes. Oh, there we go. there's a t-shirt for you there's a t-shirt i want i want some you and you will like i'm letting you do this alex you guys i am not that person but i will definitely show equity on that i love it i love it if i ever do it i'll send you your check seriously dr romani thank you so much this it's always such a pleasure talking with you and i think it's always great to just have these conversations because one episode like i said earlier is not enough this is a constant battle that people are in.

1:08:28And sometimes people need to just be reminded that this is happening to a lot of people. You're not alone. There are ways to get out of it, but just starting the conversation is helpful to recognize. You could be in a narcissistic relationship. You deserve better than that, but we're also not going to negate the fact that it is really fucking hard and we're here for you and we will keep talking about it. So thank you so much for coming on. This was, again, just a pleasure. Thank you.