I Went to Couples Therapy (ft. Orna Guralnik)

0:02What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with Call her daddy. dr orna goralnik welcome back to call her daddy i am in shock that it's been what i think it's three plus years right unbelievable i i sort of didn't feel like it was three years i it feels like a year and a half ago right yeah i guess it's also because like we do stay connected and we do communicate through email which makes me so happy um but we haven't literally seen each other in three plus years, which is bananas to me. To anyone who is new here, Daddy Gang, Orna is a psychologist and psychoanalyst. And she is the star on the docuseries Couples Therapy, where you counsel real patients about their lives in their couple dynamic.

0:57And a new season is coming out. Yes. And Matt is screwed because when a new season of couples therapy comes out, I go MIA. I sit in my room and I binge the entire thing in one sitting. So thank you. Okay. You have to explain to me how you process all of that information like in one binge. I think it's because I get so invested in these people's lives. And I want to know like, are they going to stay together? Are they going to progress? Like, what is the trauma that they're about to uncover? And like, I think it feels like the most real show I've ever watched. Like you're so incredible at extracting information from people in a way that makes them feel comfortable.

1:38But also like you fall in love with these people. Yeah. You know, and I love that we get to see their home life and we get to see them as like real humans. And it's not just this like fake facade of like a fun show to watch people talk about trauma. Yeah. So I'll be binging. I'm very, very curious to talk to you after you watch the show.

2:12On this show, I have been so open about my therapy journey. I've been open about having a psychologist as a mother and just like what that has allowed me to embrace in my life. maybe where people who were raised in a home that like weren't as open about therapy it has more of like a negative connotation and stigma but couples therapy I feel like everyone now is like oh my gosh get into therapy it's the best thing but couples therapy still has this negative connotation for couples why do you think there's such a big stigma around it well I think first of all there's this I don't remember if we talked about it last time but there's this like really intense firewall around couples in general.

2:53Well, people do not like to share the fact that they're having struggles and trouble in their couple's relationship with other people. There's some need to kind of preserve a certain kind of, some kind of facade of what a couple is like, especially when people get married. So in that sense, it's not only the couple's therapy, It's just the idea that couples are having trouble is very scary for people. They don't want to talk about it. They don't want to expose it. It's almost like they're calling in bad spirits if they talk about it. It's a good point. And I also think there's a fear of if you share too much in a vulnerable moment, then when the next day you're fine and you're at the park and you're smiling, you almost feel this shame of like, oh, I'm embarrassed.

3:46And I feel like I can't recover from what I shared. Like I definitely had moments in the very beginning of my relationship with Matt where like I would share with a friend if we had a fight. And then I felt a little awkward because I'm like, well, we're still together. But like we worked through it. And and then the friend is almost like wanting to check in on you and you kind of don't want to keep bringing it up. So it's like there's this like social element of you don't need to they don't see everything. Right. and when you share the bad they also don't want to leave that bad impression right and also you you're responsible you have another person's trust in your hand yeah so talking about it it's a little bit like does your partner have the consent if you have they given the consent it's complicated how does someone know if they should start couples therapy with their partner Funny people ask me that.

4:39I'm not of the school that believes that everyone should be in couples therapy and it's always good. I don't think so. I think there's a certain kind of window in which couples therapy is a good idea. If you're in a relationship and you feel like there's a certain kind of pattern that feels destructive and not like not a growth pattern that keeps repeating and you and your partner are trying different ways to change it and nothing's changing. You feel like you're kind of stuck and whatever you're doing is just either repetitive or making things worse. That's a good time to bring in a third person and try to get some perspective on it.

5:20Do you feel like if someone comes to you and is like, I'm terrified he's going to cheat. And you're like, well, has he given you any reason that he's going to cheat? And she's like, no, but my past and whatever. Then it's like, would you ever be like, so you probably need to go to individual therapy? Right. Okay. Yes. That's not a good idea to go to couples therapy in that moment. Before anything bad happens. Right. I mean, but people sometimes do that. It's like they think of it as like premarital counseling. Like, tell me how to like avoid all the problems that life is going to present me with.

5:51And it's like, there's no way. Life's going to present you with problems and patterns are going to emerge. And you can't like protect yourself against it. It's life. It's like, go in and live it. And when you need to, get someone to help you. And then on the other end of things, if people wait too long, sometimes it's too late, really. I mean, it's a very sad thing. But, you know, I see sometimes a couple that come in after years and years of slogging it and kind of avoiding the problem or repeating issues. And by the time they come in, there's just like not enough goodwill left in them, not enough love or not enough hope.

6:31And as much as they try, it's really hard to resurrect the relationship. So that's interesting. So that's kind of the window for me. Okay, what if someone's sitting here listening, Orna, and is like, I want to go to couples therapy so badly, but my partner refuses and has no interest? Common. How do you deal with that? There's one thing, which is to get over the hump of starting therapy, which often one person is more resistant and more scared of doing that. And getting over that particular hump of just the beginning is not, I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, I can tell people, look, just like ask your partner, give it a try or barter, you know, say something like, if you come with me to couples therapy, I'll offer this for you.

7:18I'll go your way in some other way. You know, we can go like take that trip I've always refused to do or I don't know. Yeah. So getting people through the door is not that hard, but then it's the job of the therapist to make sure that both people feel like it's a safe place. It's a place where both of them can get something out of it. because I think what often people are afraid of is that they're going to be dragged into a therapist's office and they're going to be ganged up on and everyone's going to try to force them to give up something that matters to them, to change in a way that they don't feel is right for them or it's not going to be for them.

7:58And, you know, the job of the therapist is to make sure that you're really helping the couple, not one person. And I think once two people feel like they're really being heard and that they both have something to gain from it, they're going to want to stay. Yeah. I think that's what is a huge misconception about couples therapy from the person that is not wanting to go and is kind of reluctant. Like, I think so many people are like, I'm literally going to get attacked. Yeah. And I guess there, if you could like explain to people maybe that are listening, like what can they expect in couples therapy?

8:36Because you're right. I think people are terrified of it. I think that the person that sets it up, the other person is like, oh, you guys have a plan and I'm not in on it. And you guys are going to try to like push me into a corner. Like how would you explain it to someone who has never done it but is a little trepidatious about going into it but is like, or no, what am I going to walk into? That's a really good question. I think what I would say to people is like, think about therapy, about couples therapy as a place where you have the chance to really imagine what you want out of the relationship and to have in the therapist an ally of the relationship, someone who can help you and your partner get to something that you actually want together.

9:31Meaning it's not a situation where anyone should feel cornered. I mean, there are moments when people are going to face difficult things about themselves and be asked to grow and expand and maybe give more than they're used to. But the ultimate idea is that you're there to gain. You're there to gain something that matters to you. And if that's not happening in therapy, you're not in the right place. I think that's incredible to hear, though, because I think anyone that hasn't been raised around therapy being a healthy, happy, positive thing, it's a really intimidating experience to even conceptualize because you're picturing someone staring at you, judging you.

10:16And that That is intimidating because vulnerability is intimidating in the first place. And to have someone that's like a specialist, I could see someone who's not aware of how a therapist actually acts towards you could be like, oh, this bitch is going to fucking judge me and it's going to tell me I have all this trauma. And it's going to be painful. Yes. And why are we opening all this up? I'm fine right now. Yeah. And it's like, well, you're fine until the next fight starts. And then you go back to your patterns because of whatever happened in your childhood when you were in your home, the way your parents treated you.

10:49It's all connected. Like why people don't go, for example, to have a mammogram or a colonoscopy, that they're both like afraid that it's going to be painful. Fear. And they're afraid of like what they're going to find out. And that is not what happens in therapy. So true. It should feel, I mean, it's not like, you know, Luna Park. It's not like fun, fun, but it should feel like an enriching, good experience of like being heard, understanding someone else kind of in a richer, deeper way. There's clarity. Yeah. And truth. Yeah. So I'm curious. I feel like a huge part of the show is people come to you and are trying to learn how to manage conflict.

11:32I mean, it's like that's every relationship. How do we fight? How do we communicate? How are we going to handle these things? What is the biggest mistake that you see people making when arguing with their partner?

11:47There's people, I don't know if to call it a mistake, but I think where conversations go wrong, where conflict goes wrong is, first of all, just on the simple level of level of agitation. like again like i was talking earlier about like a window like a good window there's a good window in which decent conversations can happen and that's when you're not either too upset or too activated or too wounded that you can't actually process and then the conversation is not a real conversation it's just like either a crying screaming whatever match um and on the other end, people can feel so shut down or hopeless that they're not really engaging.

12:36They're withdrawing from the conversation. So maybe the most basic thing for people for a good conversation, for good conflict would be to make sure you're in the right zone. You're not too shut down and you're not too over whatever, agitated. The other big kind of still tactical issue is, and this is, it might seem just tactical, but it's actually pretty deep. Are you noticing when you're busy trying to convince your partner of something? And when are you actually trying to understand them? Shots fired. Yeah. Right. It's huge. It seems like it should be simple, right? Right. But it's huge. And I see it in my couples.

13:27I actually just had a session with a couple this morning where they kind of realized that difference and how it will change things if they really move into deep listening mode rather than convincing, convincing. Right. And it changes everything. it does because it's like when you're in those moments you almost have blinders on where you're like i will get him to understand my point hell or high water yeah and he's on the other side being like i need her to understand what i'm saying and so you're just like hitting a wall and it's bouncing back at you and you feel crazy and you're like no how don't you hear me like and then it's like if you can get to a better yes you're literally yeah nothing is penetrating yeah it's like and people get increasingly frustrated both sides get increasingly because it's not a conversation it's not it's funny i it reminds me of in the beginning stages of my relationship with matt um it's so funny i think i had like met him right around the time that we did our first i i can't wait to hear like the update on what happens so it's so funny because we have we're both in personal therapy and I don't think I've ever even said this on the show we went to couples therapy and it was in the beginning of our relationship I reached out to you do you remember this yeah I reached out to you and I asked you do you have a good couple therapist I was like wink wink want to do it and you're like Alex that's a complete conflict right who did I send you to by the way you sent me to oh my god I'm gonna have to find her name she was incredible awesome but she was amazing and it was in the beginning stage daddy gang I never told you this Matt and I went to couples therapy and I remember in the beginning of talking about it with friends like I was like I would I don't want to talk about this on my show like people will think Matt and I have problems of course we had problems we were it's called life right it's a problem exactly always but we we had such incredible conversations and not that we have to get too much into it but the what I remember from the main problem that I were having was Matt was ready to settle down with me and I wanted to I really did but I was feeling like so my my independence was being threatened so if Matt was ever like hey if you're going out with your girlfriends like just give me a text that you got home and in my mind I'm like you're being controlling and so I was pulling away because I thought that his actual genuine care of like wanting to build a life together and like be respectful and communicate from previous relationships I felt like that was controlling and possessive yes yeah and so we worked on it a lot in couples therapy where it's like so Alex like if you're busy with work and you haven't talked to Matt all day like could you just send him a text because it's all coming from love he just wants to make sure should I go to a dinner with a friend or am I waiting for you to cook you a meal and I'm like oh well when you put it that way I sound like an asshole but it was it was difficult for me to conceptualize a life where I brought someone else in and had to think of them because I think as a woman like my mom raised me as a very independent woman I thought that partnering with a man meant I had to give up my independence what I've realized is independence in that relationship now just looks like communicating and being respectful of the other person.

16:53And Matt, now I can go do whatever I want and Matt trusts me, but we needed to build that first core trust in order to have independence in the relationship. Yeah. And to kind of borrow what you're describing to what I was saying, it's like you have to, if you're just going to keep trying to explain, let's say to Matt, why it's bothersome to you, his ask, and you don't ever pause and say, wait, but how is he thinking about this forget about how I'm perceiving it how is he perceiving it what is the meaning of this text or phone call to him if you don't ever do that then you're I mean you're never going to resolve what could be a really simple issue if you just listen it's so true and that's where I will say when I sat in couples therapy with him all those weeks we would leave and we would look at each other and be like oh my god like I'm sorry like I can't believe that I yeah I remember one session I I was so adamant about like why does he need to like know where I am at all times and he's like I don't like think I need you to hear what I'm saying I'm genuinely trying to be respectful of our relationship to know like should I expect to see you tonight like that's all and I eventually recognize also he was in a position where he was like I know you're the one I also want to make sure like I'm not investing all my time in someone that I think for a while I was he was even questioning if I liked him at one point because I would pull away so hard when really it was just I was terrified I'd never met someone incredible like that that I was like oh my god I have to make sure I'm still independent because what if what if it doesn't work out and so we were both just like yearning to connect which I bet is what you see all the time where it's like different versions of it but I think we did it for like two months and then we ended up being like okay we we had this one big problem and we solved it and then we were like okay I think we're good and now we're married.

18:46Wow. It's crazy. Wow. But it was a big I know I'm probably to people listening. I know it probably sounds like, oh, he just wanted you to text it. It was so much bigger than that. And I'm not giving it justice. But it was like this very big. What is the thing like the pursuer and the withdrawer? Yeah, it was that. Yeah. He was like, Alex. And I was like, get away. But I was like, but I love you. And then he'd be like, but why are you treating me like shit? I was like, I don't know. And it went on for a little bit there. And I'm so grateful that we had people in our life like I could email you and be like we need someone yeah and it solved a lot of our problems and I just want people to get more comfortable thinking about couples therapy in a way that you're right if there's a friction in your relationship it's it is pretty simple to solve when you have the right tools in front of you and someone's sitting there just to facilitate it what's also interesting about like the way therapy works is that you don't have to solve every problem.

19:42You solve one problem like what you're describing here, and I'm sure it has like many reverberations. You don't have to sit in therapy then to solve every other problem that comes up. You learn a certain kind of method that then generalizes. You're right. Like I remember one of the sessions we had, Matt and I were like, well, we were, you know, we were arguing about this because we couldn't figure out. And I remember she stopped us and she was like, were you drunk and we were like oh yeah oh we yeah we we were and she was like okay I'm gonna have you do this for the next two weeks anytime that you are both drinking the minute a conversation you guys start to like friction a little bit we're done save this for the morning that is now a rule that Matt and I have continued for the past three and a half years whenever we're drinking if there's ever like a wait why did you say that like that we're like nope see you in the morning let's stop it and it has saved us so much of those headaches where it's like no one is thinking right when they're drunk and to have a comfort when you're drunk you're like full of projections it's when all the ghosts come out of the box it's like no you're not getting anywhere and you can't hear shit that they're saying right you're like la la la la it's like not a point can i just yes interrupt please i want to say something but i think one of the things that was like so incredible to me when we had that interview three years ago was your capacity to listen it was really kind of extraordinary and I was like you were so young and I'm like how wow this is like you you have a lot of your questions in mind but then when I'm talking you're truly listening like it's thank you yeah I appreciate that I definitely think it's I have gotten better over the years.

21:34I think it's something that I recognize that when people give that to me, it makes me feel seen and I feel so much more connected with someone. And I, I think it's definitely allowed me to have deeper relationships in my life. Um, because a lot of people are like, Oh, I can tell you actually genuinely give a shit what I'm talking about and I think that's also why I love my job like but it's also I think it also has to do with just a honest curiosity yes like getting out of yourself and like actually being curious about stuff that's outside of you yes yeah someone asked me the other week they were like why do you do this and I was like I love it like I love sitting across from you and next week it could be a rapper and I'm like yeah I love learning about other people because I don't want to just feel so sheltered in my little bubble and be like let's talk about this this week like yeah people are fascinating we all have different experiences like it's it's incredible to come together and be like I never saw it that way but I respect it and even if you don't move forward and take someone's like life lessons like I will always think about it I'm like oh that person saw it that way and I have respect for that on the show you say and this is kind of what we're talking about but I think this is like a huge thing for my listeners that they always write in about you talk about how there is usually so much more to the fight than what the couple is actually specifically arguing about in that moment how does one step back and see the bigger picture because it's difficult very I think I think the you know when when it's in the heat of the moment when the iron is hot.

23:17I think it's a lot to ask of people to really know always what's going on and what might be feeding the superficial fight. I think maybe a realistic thing to ask of people is to have a voice in there that says to oneself, I'm sure it's not only about this. There must be other things going on for me that I'm not exactly aware of right now. If I need to, if I feel like I'm getting too, you know, there could be signals that you're getting too heated about something that shouldn't be. And then you can say to yourself, maybe I should pause, think about it for a while and come back to the conversation, not in the heat of it.

23:59But just to maintain this kind of kernel of curiosity, I have an unconscious, there might be other things going on here. There are signals that you give yourself when you're like when you get too excited about something too upset like there's a feeling that you get when when something else is going on yep I love that in the show though when you have those moments with someone because again I think like sometimes in romantic relationships there's a dynamic that you're trying to sustain and like the ego does come into play sometimes and so I understand when I watch people on the show like one person doesn't want to give it up but then when you ask the brilliant question of like can we pause for a minute what do you think this out what else is this about for you like what happened like what was your relationship with your mother yeah and then all of a sudden the person goes down a spiral like well she never gave me attention and I was always fighting for attention for my mother and then all of a sudden before she even finishes the sentence she's like oh I guess it's because she she never is looking at me in a way that I feel like I'm having to like ask her for attention like it's all these inner dynamics that we had growing up.

25:10I know that when it's in the moment when you're when your partner triggers you, let's say in the way your mom triggered you, it's very hard in those moments to like, step out and say, Oh, it's my mother issues that are playing out right now, because it feels so real and so intense in the moment. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard for people to do. Do you have any advice? Like, how do we check in on ourselves and determine if we're picking a fight quite literally just for the thrill of conflict? Like, I think people do love conflict. Yes. Give us some advice, Orna. I like that you're saying that, the thrill of conflict, because I talk to people about that.

25:54Yeah. People don't usually like to acknowledge that. I think what I would say is, first of all, it's great to acknowledge that there is such a thing as the thrill of conflict. Okay. And I'm going to say something even slightly provocative. There's nothing bad with that. Okay. Or not. I know. Like. Who is she? I know. No, I'm not like, I don't think like the, I mean, people are different in what they need in their relationship. But I think sometimes people who need to have fights or pick on each other or let out some steam through the relationship or I think that's okay. I mean, relationships are not supposed to be this kind of hallmark, picture perfect, like, sweetness thing.

26:50Right. It's a place where people live and discharge on each other and use each other and in small ways betray each other and recover. I think that's life. And I think for people not to be so hard on each other for using each other in that way, for living in the relationship. It's just like, you know, I often talk about the fact that I don't, I don't use like, I don't even use coasters on my furniture. I'm like, furniture is to be used. Like, like leave a stain and cut through the board. And it's like, that's what it's here for. And relationships are like that too. You want the relationship to be in a live place.

27:34I think where it gets problematic is if you're really hurting each other. And if there's something too pernicious about it, or if like, the thrill of injury is what takes over, or of retaliation or injury, that's when I'm like, I draw the line and I'm like, no, that is not, you're not there to like, abuse each other. And not every fight is an abuse. that's a really great point because i think when couples say like oh we had a fight like most of the time you could also change it to like we had an argument or like we had a disagreement yeah and i think when you're right though like it it can be healthy to have fights because you're working through something but there is a difference between a fight and then something that is like absolutely abusing the relationship and is getting you nowhere and it's just to push and hurt but i I love what you said, though, about how there should be conflict and these relationships like we're living in them.

28:40I think we've watched growing up for decades and decades. Like historically, when you think of romantic relationships, they're held on a different pedestal than every other relationship in our life. Like who the hell has a perfect relationship with their parents, with their siblings, with their friends? Like, of course, you're going to have conflict disagreements, growing pains with friends and family. Why do we think that that wouldn't also be true and present in romantic relationships? The person you're the closest to. Right. Yeah. That you have to like live with and wake up with and like load the dishwasher with.

29:20Right. And I think that's like it's it's helpful to talk about that to make people feel better. of like of course no relationship is perfect but when your primary dynamics were in the household you were growing up in of course families are going to fight now your new family that you're building of course there's going to be problems but it's how do we actually like address the problems is it to be cutting and to go beneath the bell and to make the person feel bad or is it like you're talking through a disagreement and like you're going to sit at the table all night till you guys can find a way to come back together.

30:09I need to know, this is for all the daddy gang out there that are like, don't call us out. Why do some people find toxic relationships so exciting and so addicting okay good question how how would we frame it um i mean the the more kind of classical psychoanalytic way to yeah think about like why people get pulled towards like abusive and toxic relationships is that it's some form of what we call in jargon repetition compulsion. Okay. Where something is unresolved, let's say a past dynamic is unresolved or past trauma, or a way that you were treated in an earlier stage of your life is unresolved and unworked through.

31:01And you're kind of looking for some way to repeat the same issue that you haven't resolved. Whether it's to master it, to come out of it better, or because there's just this kind of compulsion to just repeat the same thing. So that's one reason people get stuck on toxic relationships. But there are other ways to think about it. Like toxic relationships, one of the things they do, and toxic relationships, I mean, sometimes it's too wide a term. Like I think maybe not. I don't think we need to go as far as like it's abusive. it's just like this very unhealthy like this person is constantly playing games constantly like is there a version of like little gaslighting like it's not full-blown gaslighting like you know i mean yeah um it's you know i often try to like when i talk to people about like they're clinging on to relationships that are not good for them sometimes it's um when a person feels on some level damage or bad about themselves or um shame about certain aspects of themselves they at times go for situations that that reinforce that view of themselves.

32:33Interesting. Because as you were saying that, I was having a moment where I was thinking about when I was in college, I had been like super insecure when I was younger. And I would go for these men that like, it was like I was trying to get the guy that was so unattainable. And when I would get him, I was like playing the game back, But there was a part of me that like enjoyed it because it felt like it was like validating to me like you got him like you did it. And it was almost like healing the wounds of me feeling like no guy wanted me when I was younger and like I would get picked on. And so when I would get these guys that was like the captain of the hockey team, it was like I almost was going for like in my brain accolades of like I want to get there to prove it was more to prove to myself I can.

33:22I never felt fulfilled I never felt happy but it was like I was replaying oh if I was younger these are things I wish I could have done and then I got there I'm like well this isn't fun right like I don't feel happy I don't feel seen but it was like an ego thing almost right and you can and that is in a certain way you're trying to repair something yeah but sometimes it's I mean you can in a way flip it and you can see people who are not doing it to repair They're doing it actually to just keep telling themselves, I suck. I suck. And what is that mostly from childhood that creates that? It's a form.

33:59I mean, you can think of it as masochism, but it's like it's being stuck on a certain kind of repeat. It's self-negating. I mean, people do all sorts of neurotic things that are bad for them. Yeah. I mean, that's why we have psychoanalysis. I mean. Yeah. there are many ways that people do things that are bad for them have you found through psychoanalysis like any repeating pattern from childhood that would make someone constantly try to remind themselves of how they're not worthy not good enough yes can you share just a couple examples well the classic example i mean it's kind of an extreme example but think of the classic pattern of people who've been, let's say, sexually abused as children.

34:47And then in teenage years, they're like, they enter like a series of like, abusive, promiscuous relationships that just make them feel like shit, because that's the only way they can, they know how to think of themselves. It's like an endless self punishing cycle. It's very, I mean, it's like a very particular kind of dynamic with people who've had like early abuse that it takes like deep work to move out of that pattern but you know that's so helpful yeah i think because i think again why i appreciate these type of conversations in the show is like i think a lot of people who maybe have not even begun to like experience therapy or thought about it or just wasn't a part of their upbringing like that statement alone could would be crazy to people like hold on so someone that was abused is now going to go and like and put themselves in harm's way right and they'd be like wait what like i think they just never have sex for the rest of their life and they'd be shut down that's just not the case but i think these type of conversations help explain to people like the intricacy of trauma and how it unfolds in your adult life but i appreciate you sharing that because I'm sure I mean one in every what three women like so many women listening to this show may be sitting there like oh my god Orna yeah I think I'm I think I'm doing that and how do you even begin to like what just therapy and talking through it I know the work of therapy I mean there are other ways that people deal with issues but in psychoanalytic work what we do is we i mean this is like yeah it's different with each person but um you basically the idea is that you try to go back and revisit the actual experience and help the person now with their more mature mind really tend to what happened to them to the injuries to to what was missing try to imagine how things could get better.

36:51Like you really try to tend to all the areas that were disavowed and neglected over the years and heal. And I understand why that sounds absolutely terrifying to people. Yeah. Like people with that type of trauma or any type of trauma, you're like, hold on, Orna, I'm supposed to go back and relive it. Right. Are you crazy? Like I put it away. I tucked it away right but i think what people realize when they come out on the other side of it is there's such power and resilience you feel within yourself when you can go back and you can start to take control over your own life and not let this thing that happened to you yeah define you yeah because it does start to define you when you don't right address it it comes up in your romantic and your friendships and every part of your work life um and that's when it gets terrifying And people, it's so important for people to feel like they're not, like you're saying, defined by bad things that happened to them in the past, that they have some freedom, some degrees of freedom out of that.

37:54Yeah. Back to couples. How big of a role does sex play in a healthy relationship? It's funny. I just saw something in the Times today that I haven't read yet, but about like people that are talking about how sex is not that important in their marriage. I think it varies a lot. I think not only is sex like a, you know, this kind of domain that could goes anywhere and people have like all possible things in their mind and in their bodies and that can transpire between them. And sex is like a huge terrain. But the importance of sex and like what meaning people assign to sex in their relationship varies a lot.