Jackson White: Toxicity and Tell Me Lies

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1:13It's just one and done. Even with sticky, icky messes, we are talking kitchen, bathroom, literally anywhere, okay? Anywhere you need to clean up, this is what you need to be using. These wipes are perfect for multitasking. if you're like oh my gosh I need to do this right now yeah you do because daddy gang what are we waiting for plus the gentle lemon scent is so light and fresh that smell when I came home from school oh Lori got the house together shop Clorox disinfecting wipes now at walmart.com slash Clorox wipes what is up daddy gang it is your founding father Alex Cooper with call her daddy jackson white welcome to call our daddy thank you how are you doing as if we haven't like like asked that question like nine times before we started this yeah yeah we've been like hanging out for a second before we started recording guys um was i the most high maintenance you're not high maintenance no no no i'm just dealing with a lot right now emotionally because I just watched the finale last night.

2:19Oh, that kind of thing. And so I'm just trying to process you as you. And all the girls came up and they're like, oh, he's really charming and he's really nice. And then watching Steven last night. I know. And so it's a little bit of a mind fuck to be sitting here with Steven DeMarco being like, should I be scared? What's the vibe? Do people come up to you on the street and call you Steven or Jackson? All the time. It's mostly Steven. How do you feel about it? I'm excited for it to be not to get to the phase where it's your name. It's a great honor to be a great character. But I'm super stoked for my own name to be said.

2:59But now I'm – Jackson represent. One day. But it's cool. I'm Steven now. I'm Steven. When I think about Steven, I feel like he's kind of the antithesis of the America sweetheart. You know, can you kind of just try to explain to us what it was like playing a literal sociopath? Like, how did you get into that character? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, it started as it always just very simply. You just try and be truthful and enjoy the character and learn him. And then he turned into this like absolute garbage fire of a guy. But at the beginning, it was really fun. It was like, why does he do what he does?

3:47And he was a complicated guy and a complicated relationship. And it was really fun. And then the writers just turned him into a, he's the worst. He's like one step behind a serial killer. That's what I've heard. He's right there. He's baby serial killer. Yeah, he is. I feel like it's funny to watch online. A lot of people have talked about how there are these mannerisms. and the posture and the way he walks and the hands in the pockets. Like, is that something that you also do in your normal life or did you create that for this character? So he, it's both. Like there's - Do you have good posture?

4:30Are you scared of me? I'm not scared of you. I'm just, it's a rewiring of the brain. Yeah. Because I just binged it. Yeah. So I've been watching you. By the way, I do have bad posture, but it's not like I have I'm I'm a drummer okay and my whole life I was like this and then so my back got like the hunchback yeah but I'm working on you know you go you you work on it I didn't go to like theater school and learn the the breath in the back I didn't do that but I'm working on it so what about the eye contact thing did you work on that for Steven you kind of like don't blink oh that's yeah there's there's there's isms in there that that they're fun how do you prep for that do you like look at yourself in the mirror and do that uh no that'd be crazy or would it be like amazing that'd be nuts i don't know he's he's he has a lot of um things half are mine half or invented.

5:32I don't know. It's kind of a combo of both. But he's very physical. Like he's definitely a different physical. He's a different walk. He has a different thing. He's very like calculating and still and he moves kind of like that. Yes. Except when he's like angry and then he'll walk different. There's like a lot of stuff that I tried to like play with. We love him. He's a shark. He's a, do we? I don't think so. No, I'm just trying to like. You're just trying to like make me feel better. don't it don't play get me it's fine it's a lot he he's a he's a yeah it's hard to like that guy i read that you and i don't know if you still do this but you used to watch every episode of tell me lies like four times you could go from like hating to then loving your performance did you do that for this season nope why because it's got it's gone too far okay i can't i can't i i don't want to do that anymore it hurts it's very fun to to study the tape i like to learn from that but then it becomes masochistic and you're like it just gets it's not healthy did you watch season three uh briefly briefly yeah i don't know what that means what is briefly like i'll do it's like i watched it once okay with a with a far lens with like a detached lens you weren't like directing yourself no like why did you do that what did you do but no but it creates a it's very emotional to watch a lot of yourself it kind of sucks do you watch your own yeah but i've been now doing this for a while like in the beginning days it was harder yeah but it's not fun i think that happened with steven where i detached him unintentionally as it went on yep i think i tried to bring myself into him but then as he became worse and worse i was like yeah he's a character i'll make him be a character and then i could then you can play with it more and detach um i'm thinking about it it being wednesday everyone just found out that this was the series finale not the season finale and none of us had any idea that this was the end of tell me lies how are you feeling and how did you find out uh really recently a few days ago actually and who told you so grace actually told me and we were both in the airport we were both in the airport in separate parts of the airport we're in different terminals different terminals so far away two terminals away it's a new love story and um and i felt really really sad initially even though i knew creatively that's what was supposed to happen that's what the intention always was was you know it's and it's a very perfect we'll get into that we're gonna get into it if it was a perfect ending i do think it was i think it's hilarious but it but it was very sad i was sad and i and because it's like you're you made a family the cast was like a family and then you you also like lost a job you didn't but it also feels like a little bit like that.

8:51And it's been four years putting yourself into something. So it was like mixed bag. So did you guys have like a conversation with your castmates? Like, are you guys going to have like a going away party? Yeah. I mean, I wish, I hope, because we're so close and everyone I think is emotional about it, even though, I don't know, you just can't plan for these things. Okay, let's talk about the finale. I sat down I had snacks I was locked in I was like how are they going to wrap this thing up in this there's so many questions like what's going to happen with Pippa and Brie and Wrigley and you and why are you marrying Lydia and what that like there's so many questions and then she did manage to wrap the entire thing up in the finale how did you feel about it when you were filming it and then when you got to watch it I laughed hysterically when I read it We all did Because it was like Oh he wins That's so funny That's so cosmically funny I am sorry I think it's a big tragic comedy at the end It's so fucking crazy Yeah I hope everyone laughs No no no You don't understand Do you like look online When people are talking about the series at all Because everyone said No not anymore Okay, the only way that it would be a justifiable ending, everyone was like, Stephen needs to die.

10:19Right. He needs to die. And then you kind of won. That's so good. That's so funny. Not even strictly, oh, my character. That's fucking hilarious. It's crazy. Like you have the guy who's the object of the torment or the whatever, the aggressor. And then it's not realistic because it's television, but it's a new thing. I've never seen that done before. Well, it's also really realistic of like this sometimes is how it fucking goes. Yeah. Like probably not to that extent. No, hopefully not. Hopefully not. But that's kind of how it goes. Like a lot of bad people win, unfortunately. How did you feel filming the wedding scene?

11:08That whole blow up and then you taking the mic at 3 a.m. and being like, one more fucking thing, ladies and gentlemen. It was cool. Well, it was 3 a.m. It was like 4 a.m. We were doing that all night. And I had the flu. I had like 103 fever. I had a fever. I was like sweating and sore throat. And they like juiced me up. and I went out there and just blacked out. That was crazy. It's crazy that that happened on that day. Who do you think made out the best in the show by the end? Do you want to say it together? One, two, three, Steven. Motherfucker. I know. Because I was like, okay, technically Diana.

11:53You're like Diana. Oh, yeah, they got away. But on the Richter scale of like, who did the worst shit that then got out the best? Like, yeah, he got rejected now from Yale and they like got rid of him. But you got to do another one on Lucy at the very end. That was a mind fuck the gas station moment. I was like, literally go fuck yourself. I know. I know. It's twisted. And then you're the one holding the mic, like literally like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang to every single person. He just ices everyone in the room. Smoked him. I had fun. I don't know how I feel about it. Do you are you like, yeah, like what what is the response to something like that?

12:31I think that it weirdly, as I've had time to process it now, I'm finding that. At first, I couldn't decide if I wanted it to end where you and Lucy just like left in the car together. You thought that did you think that that's where it was going to end? I thought it was going to end there because I was like, oh, and he's going to fuck her over again. But then Megan made the decision. Let me have you watch one more time. Him fuck her over again. That's the perfect ending to this show. Because why am I so fucked up that I low-key wanted you guys to end up together? Right. Right. That's the whole thing.

13:08You're disgusting. You murdered someone. I know. And that's the whole joke. Yeah. And then it's a perfect ending. Like, this will never end. Okay. Can you indulge me for a second? Yeah. So I think to your credit, you brought to life a character that millions of people are frustrated by. They hate. They've found some moments where they've like loved you or liked you. And then they go back to hating you and being disgusted. And now the character we're done with. But I thought today we could really finish it off strong. and you can get into character one last time get into character oh shit get your posture ready darn it yeah right just my shitty posture all right you're gonna get into character as steven and you are going i'm gonna give you scenarios from my audience and i want you to give advice as if you are steven speaking so steven welcome to call her daddy okay oh god look at him getting into character okay um so i'm gonna come back and i'm gonna answer your questions now i'm steven okay all right i'm steven i'll answer everyone hey how you doing hi can you adjust the microphone to be closer to you i think it's fine where it is sure that'll make you more comfortable that'll make me really comfortable thanks this is my show Sure.

14:40Okay. Steven. Someone wrote in and said, I went through my boyfriend's phone last night and saw he has an active dating profile. Should I tell him I know? What do I do, Steven? No, hold that in. Hold that in for a long time. Use it when you have to. You weaponize it. wait until you're in a situation where he is in front of his parents and reveal it and put it on a flash drive wait until you're making love and at the moment of climax reveal that you know about his dating profile okay steve sorry this is great no this is great Okay, next one. Okay. This is kind of really relatable to Steven. Okay.

15:35My boyfriend and I keep getting into massive arguments, but he never takes accountability for his actions. How can we move forward if he will never own up to the things that he's done? Find the people he holds to you. Learn his secrets. It's constantly like hostage. The same thing. Hold information, put it on your computer, and then use it at a... a horrible time. I think that's what he does. Why do you think that he gave Lucy back the tape? Maybe he was exhausted. He was like, I don't want to do it. I'm bored. He's like, bitch, I'm going to Yale. Yeah, he's bored. Yeah. That's probably what it was.

16:16He was bored. Yeah, he's bored. He was like, you look pathetic. Yeah. I tortured you enough. Yeah, he's done. Now I need to find another thing to torture you over. He was over. Okay, we're moving on.

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18:55and after she then sent me the video of her in the said crazy pajamas which video which vid you get you took the video and it's her she kind of looks like she's in it's like a is the one with the black feathers oh no not that one i didn't get that one it was we didn't get that one it was more of like a jester striped situation. Striped situation. And I was wondering, have you, like, did you wear anything lucky last night to bed to prepare for this interview? Did I wear anything lucky last night to bed? To prepare for this interview. More people would ask me that. I didn't wear anything lucky. Okay.

19:36I wore my normal bed wear. Okay. What do you wear? Just underwear. And like, I like a tank top when I sleep. Okay. Just a little, like not the full t-shirt thing and not, or I'll rip it off and go just underwear. Just underwear. And I just want to clarify, like, I wasn't asking you, I wouldn't have asked you this unless your girlfriend told me. Because I'm picturing Grace wearing her full jester outfit and then you in normal. Yeah, she's in a, well, she wears the cap with the bell. like Scrooge. Yep. She looks like Scrooge. With the elf feet. Yep, with the feet. And she's grumpy and she's sitting there with it over her breast and then I'm in nothing and that's how we sleep and it works.

20:23I love that. It's great. Okay, so that you wore like a normal outfit to bed last night. I love that. Yeah. These are the hard-hitting facts that we need to know on Call Her Daddy. When I got to interview her a few months ago, loved her. She's lovely. She told me about how you guys met and how you fell in love, but she said that you were giving off very, very serious actor energy on the initial video call where you guys met. How do you remember that going? Well, when you're nervous, you go into a mode course. So when you're on like a big, she had the job. I didn't have the job. So I was in like a mode.

21:02I was in like a, hello, nice to meet you. And we do a mode. It wasn't serious, but it was like trying to get the job yeah and then i remember what happened she always trips up on this she had the job i didn't have the job this is a very interesting conversation on power and she said do you need anything from me which is a very like actor-y question not to throw back on her but that's very like do you need anything from me performance wise and then i think i said no you're doing great no you're doing great which if you don't know me i can sound very condescending sometimes but i do i mean it genuinely i can sound very like like good job right you're like horrible job you're like no really good job you know what i mean when someone's like hey you're doing great right and so i think i probably sound like a dick but i really meant it she was like can i do anything i'm like no you're great okay so then you left that and did you feel any vibes romantic vibes um no we were pretty we were we were walled up we were walled up um she was yeah she from the very initial time we were both like in relationships we were like it was not like that i think it was it wasn't until everyone was open and we might do this job together that's when we started you know what do you remember I remember about the first time you started to have like, oh my God, wait, could I have romantic feelings for this person?

22:33When she texted me. What did she text you? Like, hey, like, what's up? I was like, oh, I was, I was in, I was in Canada for some reason. And she said, it was like, you know, hey, come to New York. She didn't say like, come to New York. But she was like, what are you doing? I'm doing this for the holiday. She was like, oh, I was like, I might come to New York. and she was like something like cool and sexy where she was like, you should like, you fucking should. Like with a fuck, you should fucking do it or something like that. And you guys were already filming Tell Me Lies. No, no, no, no, no. I still hadn't had the job.

23:06It took me eight months to get this job. I had to convince so many people to let me do this job. It was very funny. Why do you think? Because you're so good at the role. Well, thanks. No, no. No, they just had to comb the earth, I guess, to find this. It's a very complicated guy. And there was like a lot of dudes who did it. Whatever. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she had the job. I didn't have the job. And then I went to New York. And we kind of like talked about all the reasons why we shouldn't do it because I don't have the job yet. Okay, wait. I remember, though, you said that you were dying to make the first move, but didn't have the courage to go through with it.

23:52What was going on? What do you remember feeling in that moment? Just like ripping out of your chest kind of thing, you know, that thing. And when she finally went in for the kiss. Maybe that's a power thing. Like, I didn't want to. Sorry to interrupt. No, this is good. I didn't want to make a move because I didn't have the. That's not really it. But I can totally be a people pleaser. I can totally think I'm overstepping. Maybe I wanted to.

24:32Not step on anyone's toes. What do you mean? Hmm. Well, like, what if I didn't have the role and then I kissed her? And then she was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now you're definitely not getting the role. You know what I mean? Right, right. Like, what if I overstepped? So she kind of had to make the first move. And she did. Yeah, I was like, and that's not, these thoughts aren't going through my head, but I'm definitely. Wait, we're reflecting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. You're probably like, subconsciously, I probably like. Tread lightly. Yeah. You like her, but don't. Right, because it was a work dynamic also.

25:12Yeah. And that's how it first started. So it's like you kind of got a. She was my boss. She was your boss. She was my daddy. Is she still your daddy? She was my, she's my daddy. Grace is my daddy. I love that for Grace so much. Honestly, you're like, I can't believe I just said that. Yeah, that's going to, I know where that, that's going to be on your thing. Just that. It's going to be. That's the whole promo. Yeah. Grace is my daddy. I know. It's perfect. I know what you want. Yeah, just keep giving it. You're doing great. Okay, is it true that you let Grace give you multiple tattoos early on in the relationship?

25:44Yes. How, like, what tattoos and how many? One, two, three, four. Now, walk me through that thought process of, like, allowing someone really early on in dating to, like, fully tattoo your bod. Were you nervous? Like, what if it ends? Have you ever done that? nope okay i just what if it is on it right i'm like nope yeah you let someone fucking put a needle in no no okay um i don't think you don't think about the you don't think about that i don't think about a lot of that i'm very impulsive but that was also hilarious i like i liked it um i liked i like that yeah i don't know you're you're on the adrenaline of the courtship phase plus like pain and i was down that was cool how do you think that your guy's relationship has evolved over the course of the show?

26:41It's just gotten more adult. I don't know. It's more like you don't think the ceiling's going to cave in. You know what I mean? You're not like, I don't know. You start with a lot of fear in any relationship, and then you kind of get comfortable.

27:06and I think we've just grown up. Would you say you start with a lot of fear in the beginning of relationships? Or maybe I do. I was going to say, what do you mean by that? I think normal people don't as much. I'm in a lot of fear. Why? Because I just grew up in fear. I grew up in a lot of inconsistency. So I didn't know what was going on a lot of the time. And so I come at situations from a fearful place sometimes. It gets better and better over the last 10 years, but I absolutely go into things on the defense thinking that it's not going to work out. That's how I approach most things. That kind of relates to you said recently in an interview that it's higher stakes to stay together for me than to break up.

28:05It's definitely more work in higher stakes to be with somebody. Yeah. It's way less pressure to not more painful. But you have to like you have to want to be with somebody very, very hard. Right. Yes. Would you say if when you look back at your past, were you more comfortable and relaxed being single because you're on your own and you're just dependent on yourself? Or do you like being kind of dependent in a relationship? I think dependent is the wrong word. I think it's important to not be fully dependent. You can be dependent for certain things. I like to be dependent for things that she does better that I don't do.

28:50She's better at so many things. And it's nice to have a partner in that to do things that you don't do. But the, the, the dependent part gets tricky when you're like, stop seeing friends or whatever. You know what I mean? That's when you have to start. And that's a, that's an, that's a discipline. That's an effort I find, or maybe that's just where I come from, but it's a discipline for me to round out my life. Like it's a pie and you have to, everything has to be a piece. and I have to consciously go to those other pieces so that you don't put too much pressure on a relationship. Let's go back because you just mentioned like you going into a relationship, you're like it starts in fear and then it gets comfortable, which I don't think is like a completely abnormal statement.

29:38Like I don't think that's not what people feel. I think maybe fear is like a pretty strong word to use. I think maybe some people are more like, oh, it's a little like you don't know what's gonna happen and it's like exciting but it's a little like up in the air and you're kind of like excited to see what's to come and then eventually you get comfortable you're like it's fucking terrifying yeah which obviously relates to your childhood growing up your parents got divorced when you were really young yeah your dad remarried three times four times three three i think three um how do you think watching your parents different relationships ultimately impacted your perception of love and commitment child of divorce conversation like are you i'm not but i have interviewed a lot of people that are and i also kind of feel like everyone's got their shit it's all fucked it's all it's all fucked it's so weird it's all weird and now it's on us to to say okay cool i i unpacked it i figured it out goodbye that's not me yes that's that's the new that is the thing yeah because we therapy now it's all it's like it's it's too much yeah yes like figure yourself out and then let it go before you figured yourself out yeah did you have any patterns that you now can look back and be like oh that's just because of like what i was raised seeing that i thought was normal yeah well you yeah you you i think everyone is like inherently a little narcissistic when you're coming up that's just what it is you're like when you're a teenager you're like oh my god and then you go to college that's what these characters all are they're they're just self-involved um and and and you uh you just you start not making yourself the victim because you you learn that though that there are consequences or that no one's coming to the rescue and that you can't just make it about yourself and you can't weaponize your your past and use that in your relationships with your friends because people won't stay anymore they won't they won't stick they don't want to hang out with you if you're if you're if you're doing that but it is so fucked up because it takes you as we all have done like repeatedly doing something whether it's a pattern whether it's like jealousy or abandonment wounds or being pulled back and kind of being like not emotionally available whatever it is that you bring and then slowly you get the note enough from partners that you've been with that you're like okay I actually have to look at myself totally and I need to address this or you don't take the note and you're out here still just ripping what do you think one of your notes has been it's a great question i'm i'm i mean i'm um yeah i gotta ban him and i don't know i guess like i'm i'm afraid of i'm afraid it's fear it's all fear so i'm like afraid of i've been afraid of men a lot of the time that like i've been afraid of um like male relationships i've had to work on because um i just had it i had a more complicated relationship with men than i did with women i was i was kind of raised with my mom my sister so So I've had to work on that.

33:01In relationships, it's what I was explaining you're supposed to do is like divide your time. I can totally not do that and put too much pressure on a relationship. That's the big note. Yeah. I mean, I think that's really relatable too, especially if you have that instability growing up and then you get to a point where you're like, oh my God, I found love. I found my person. I found this person that loves me and I love them. And then, of course, you don't want that to end because you're seeing real love and you have it right there and it's accessible. You're like, I don't want to lose this. And then sometimes you hang on to something because you're like, even though subconsciously you know it's not maybe perfect, you're like, but it's also someone that loves you.

33:42Yes. And so you're like, should I just stay because it's something stable or should I go because I know it's not right? And a lot of times with abandonment wounds, you're like, I'm just going to stay. Or you leave first so that they don't abandon you. You get the jump on it. That's definitely real too. How did you feel growing up about your stepmoms? Because that's a lot. It's so funny. The stepmom conversation is so funny. I didn't know him that well. I mean, my dad lived in Franklin in Tennessee. Okay. And my mom lived here. And I would spend the summers and whatnot with him or weeks at a time, whatever, breaks.

34:19I'd go out there because I loved it out there. and I would hang out with these new mamas. And they were cool. Shout out to Debra. I didn't know him that well, but I was like, Debra! What's up, Debbie? But I don't know. I was a kid. I think you have a gut reaction to somebody who's replacing your parent. Like, I think I gave her a hard time. I was like a child, but I think I like, you know, Deborah grabbed my arm too hard. But I think she was probably a wonderful person. Yeah. And yet I was like very adverse to change. And same with my stepdad. My mom remarried. And like we've always had two rams locking horns just because it goes against your biology.

35:20But they're also filling a very difficult role. I could not imagine marrying somebody with kids and just being like, these are from a complicated, fucked up place, but I'm going to take care of them. That's weird. Right. It's like when you get older, you then can have empathy for both dynamics because you're like now you're getting closer to the point where you can picture potentially being in more of like a fatherly role where when you were younger as a kid, you're like, oh, my God, this person's going to replace my dad or replace my mom. And now you're like, whoa, that was a lot to walk into.

35:56Doesn't mean they were perfect. I just had this conversation with my stepdad where I was like – it just crystallized recently of like, oh, dude, that must be so hard. uh i that's i couldn't imagine you had mentioned kind of like craving the stability of a family unit your entire life when things feel shaky yeah where do you find or where did you find that safety in the in the wrong places and then in the right places like you you you copy your parents like Like, my dad was a very complicated, amazing person. He was an incredible drummer. And music was my whole life. And my mom is an incredible singer.