Jennette McCurdy: Half His Age

32:37When do you think it finally started to really sink in that your mother was actively not only enabling but also encouraging an eating disorder? I think, I mean, in that moment when I heard her speaking with a doctor, it was when I first started piecing things together of, okay, at that point we'd really been in the trenches of cataloging everything we wrote, restricting calories, really monitoring, weighing me all the time. She'd measure my thighs. All of these behaviors had been in play for a while. And then hearing my doctor speaking with her, I didn't know, you know, I was, I guess, I don't know, I was maybe 11 or 12 maybe at that point.

33:11And so I didn't know exactly what was going on, but I had a feeling that gut instinct, something was wrong. And I shoved that gut instinct down and I said, okay, there's no place for that because mom would never do that to me, right? Mom would not, come on, she's my mom, whatever. Give her the benefit of the doubt. and I just kept giving her the benefit of the doubt at the expense of my own self-trust for a long time, for a long time. I know that you've been eating disorder free for years. Yeah, yeah. And you said on your podcast that you can now finally accept and love your appearance. Can you talk about how you were able to get to that point?

33:50Well, the therapist I saw specifically for eating disorders was really instrumental in the process. His name was Jamie Farquhar. He was in Toronto. I was working on a thing at the time and saw him and he did a mixture of, he worked with me with using DBT and schema-based therapies. And I think the modalities are really specific because I think something like CBT, I'm like a therapy nerd, right? But like CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy is so much talking that for a person like me who I'm already in, like I'm in my head enough. We don't need to spend, we are good. We don't need to spend any more time up there.

34:20So DBT really helped me to kind of unravel my thought process and assess it in a way that was more scientific and clear cut. And then schema-based therapy was more the feeling kind of sense of things and understanding the root of the traumas to then unpack from there. And I think those two modalities were really, really, really pivotal. I don't know if I would have had the same results from any other kinds of, like, equine therapy, like petting a horse or whatever people do. Like, I don't know if that's going to do it for me or finger painting my trauma. Not going to work for me. CBT, I don't think would have been as effective.

34:52but those two modalities were really, really effective. I suggest them for anyone, anybody, you know, anyone who's struggling with it. I think, I think there's a lot of promise in those two modalities. What was the biggest challenge that you had to overcome in your recovery process?

35:08Uh, there was this moment early on where, um, Jamie had encouraged me to, uh, see, he said, in what ways is your eating disorder helping you? And I was shocked. I was, well, what are you talking about? Like, I'm sitting here to try to get over this thing. I don't want to have this anymore. I don't want to be throwing up fucking eight times a day. I'm tired of this. I'm exhausted. I don't, what do you mean? What good is it bringing you? He goes, well, you have to accept that it's bringing you something good in order to move through it and find something that can bring you at least something as effective, if not more, preferably more, so that you can replace this with that new thing.

35:45And so really recognizing its value was this odd kind of process of going, okay, I have to really accept that this thing was a positive for me in certain ways and really helped me survive in certain ways. And it felt really counterintuitive, but I think it was very helpful to the process. Interesting. Yeah. Isn't that wild? Interesting. I think it was my first realization of the gray areas of life. I tend to be such a black and white thinker and I like to compartmentalize in that way because it makes things simpler right it makes okay this is the villains and the victims this is the good and the bad this is whatever and i can put it in these two buckets but that was the beginning of realizing oh life is a gray area like it's not so clear-cut it's not so simple and trying to make it that way is actually pretty unhelpful because you're going to do the pendulum swing instead of finding that balance somewhere in the middle um you also wrote about and have talked about that the first time you went to therapy you quit because you couldn't handle the thought of your mom being abusive when you started to get underneath all of it.

36:42What do you remember about that first session? Oh, my God. Feeling like my body was on fire when that was even kind of suggested. You know, your mother is abusive. She kind of laid it out for me. And I just felt instantly like I have to run. It was that fight or flight instinct. I can't do this anymore. This is not I can't go near this. I couldn't face it. It was quite a while before I was able to reconsider it and face it again. Where do you stand today with how you feel about your mom? I'm able to just miss her sometimes, which is something that I will take full credit for. I think she left me with a lot of shit to kind of parse through and the nail in the coffin being when I realized that when I found out from my who I thought was my dad that he was not in fact my dad and that was came a year and a half after her death and so that was the kind of piece of information that I needed to go okay let me consider that maybe this person didn't have my best interest at heart all the time because she couldn't because she wasn't capable of that and there was so much anger initially there was so much frustration so much hurt and pain but really just masked with with deep deep deep anger and I really don't feel angry at her anymore um and i think that's because of the work i've done and also i'm being totally candid i think because because the book was successful like i don't know if it had just gone like i i i cringe saying that but it's also true where it's like if the book had petered out and whatever like would i be sitting here being like i'm happy with where i'm at it's all it's like almost you got the closure that you deserve from all the pain and you were able to pour into that book everything in you with regard to your mother but then i can't help but think like you finding out that the father that you thought was your biological father your entire life wasn't but she was dead so you couldn't even ask her these questions like yes another form of resentment of like are you fucking kidding why did she not say that when she knew she knew she was right this wasn't a sudden thing it's not like she died in a crocson didn't have an opportunity she knew for years she knew for years when i was two i get why you don't tell your children then she knew again when i was 18 and my siblings were all three five and nine years older than i was so we were at that age where we could have it would have been uncomfortable it would have been painful of course but you would have gotten the answers exactly i would have gotten the answers i would have gotten some closure and honestly i would have respected her more like say the fucking truth is i think it's i think it's really been helpful though for my life in that way that it's really led me to recognize what a value truth is um my my senses are up for for any anything that's bullshit and I can't fucking stomach it.

39:26And it's I'm at this place now. I don't care. I'm not going to say the thing I'm supposed to say. I'm not gonna say, oh, I'm so grateful for what that like starry eyed fucking idiot. Like, you know, it's worth it to be honest. And I'm hopeful that that helps somebody who needs to hear it and needs to find that path of truth themselves. It's also so sad, but symbolic of on her way out, she couldn't grant you this one last thing that would actually really be quite helpful for you and who you are and your development and your story because it's your life too and for her to take that um i do think it kind of wraps back to like yes we're looking for truth within people but half the time like you can't rely on anyone in terms of to be a good person with integrity and be honest and so sometimes you have to stop looking for the truth and just know your truth and keep it moving do you feel like you can rely on people or they're like i have a lot of people i've learned that i can rely on but i think yeah in life i've had like a lot of ones where i'm like wait like you want to shake someone and be like this is not true this is not happening and and you can drive yourself down the barrel of like i must get them to tell me what and it's like why am i making this so much harder on myself leave just leave right yes yes like and would you even believe them if they said it's the truth god yes yes

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42:56Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Tinder. When you're into someone on Tinder, you start picking up on the little cues, like casually asking their birthday so you can look up their zodiac sign or hearing a song they love and thinking, okay, wait, this actually tells me a lot about you. That's why Tinder has astrology mode and music mode. It's an easy way to break the ice and start the conversation, daddy gang. Explore all the possibilities for yourself. Tinder, it starts with a swipe. Download Tinder today. Must be 18 plus. Okay, power and control as we've been discussing these themes, obviously, and they are a huge conversation and theme in your new book, Half His Age.

43:34I know we kind of talked about it early, but can you just kind of set the scene for my listeners of like what this novel is about? Yeah. The main event of the novel is a senior in high school's sexual relationship with a creative writing teacher. But to me, in a way, it's kind of, I guess, similar to I'm Glad My Mom. That's sort of the main event, the big noisy event. But underneath, it's really about desire and loneliness and why do we desire things that might not be good for us? And why do we so desperately paw at the things that we desire, even if we know deep down they're not good for us, why do we still pursue them so relentlessly, so exhaustively at the expense of oftentimes our own self-esteem, our own self-worth?

44:19That's sort of the deeper. Every girl is going to be like, yes, yes, and no, it's really relatable and it's scary and it's uncomfortable and it's um i've had versions of this in my life and i know you when you were 18 your first relationship was with a man in his mid-30s yeah how did your personal experience inspire the book i want to hear about yours as well i'm really curious but um you know i think i i i don't know how to not write from a deeply personal place i was really excited to write fiction i thought oh my god like this is and i completely want to keep writing fiction That's my really biggest takeaway from writing half his age.

45:01But I also can't help but write from that place because that's the thing, like I mentioned earlier, sort of the anger that if there are those deep, deep, painful feelings, writing is my way to closure for those feelings, is my way to closure for past experiences. and I think my way for connection with other people who were kind of seeking a similar closure in some way. But I didn't even realize how angry I still was about that. I thought I was done. I thought it was good. I thought I didn't really consider that. I didn't think of him ever, this person I was in a relationship with at all. He wasn't on my mind, right?

45:34And then I'm writing this book and it was only several drafts in where I looked back and I said, why this? Why now? And it was, oh, because I have so much anger left about this thing, because there's so much left to process about this thing because I have to find closure on this stage of my life through this. Interesting. Yeah. Well, it's so hard because when you're that young, it feels like you're just in it. Like there is kind of no processing. Sure. And then you get out of it and you kind of need to really, really remove yourself to a certain degree to actually have any wherewithal to look back and unbiasedly look at yourself and be like, what happened there?

46:16And you can actually look at your younger self as like your older sister of your younger self, if that makes sense. It totally does. I'm curious. So you feel like there, did you feel like there were like, for me, I feel like there were micro moments of processing or micro moments of like, something's not adding up. Something's not quite right. Did you feel that? Yes. And I think I like still haven't fully processed it. Like I think through my show or whatever, I'll like tell stories. And even sometimes I think I romanticize it. And so it's still like a little like. Say more. What are the ways that you romanticize?

46:43I think that when I was, so I was 18 and he was like 33. Yeah. I was 19. He was 33 or 34. Okay. Weird. That's weird. That's weird. Can you imagine now being with a creepy? It's so creepy. Imagine me being with a 19 year old. Like, no, that's a great way to put it. When they have, when they are older than you, it doesn't matter what their career. there is a power imbalance. And so there is something enticing about it. There's something mature about it. There's something kind of elusive about it that you're like, oh, this is going to make me, it's all to like, it kind of helps you fuel your ego at such a weird, susceptible time to like, I don't know who I am.

47:28And so you kind of like migrate into their world and you feel like, oh my gosh, they're helping me find my identity. When really then when you have the actual capacity, when you hit that age to look back and be like, oh my God, in your 30s, I shouldn't even be talking to an 18 year old. I think it's confusing because you want to believe that you're like smart and you have - Mature. Mature, which they tell you, which we're going to get to. Yeah, it's complicated. It's very complicated. So I have a lot of empathy for women that are listening and we're going to get into this conversation that I acknowledge there's probably potentially some still romanticization that you can be doing to that previous relationship if you had an older person in your life.

48:15But also, let's start to unpack the other side to it. Yeah. My mind just went to also like those moments where I would piece together that something was wrong. And I'm so – I feel shame in saying this, but I remember that, you know, there was a point when he introduced me to his friends and he would take me to kind of barbecues and I would meet the friends and their wives. And the friends would be, the guy friends would be, you know, hey, like to all smiles, whatever. And the wives would be like, mm-hmm. Hi, nice to meet you. What's your name? Okay. Jeanette, yeah, great. And I thought like, are they being mean to me?

48:46And now I say, oh no, they fucking hated this guy's guts because they know shit. They knew shit then that I didn't know. And they're looking at this man like - And they're going, what a fucking loser. You brought another younger one here today? Yes, exactly, exactly. How young is she this time? And it's like, and you took it personally because you didn't even fucking know the conversation at hand was like you didn't even know what it was you didn't even know what they were exactly and i'm just saying oh my god they were being protected they were being helpful they knew so much more than i knew if only i had sat and talked with one of them instead of splitting a vegan hot dog with i almost said his name can i ask like how did you guys meet you met through through work yeah there's nowhere to meet anybody else all i did was you met at work so you are a young actor at the time Were you 17 when you met him?

49:3016? I think I was 18 by the time he started working on the show. I think. I'm not sure about that. It's possible I was younger. But I was at least 18. I was most likely 18. And how did this relationship start? A lot of like hanging out on set. A lot of hanging around the writer's room. We would hang out in the writer's room after work. He would show me movies that he thought I would like. Like Dazed and Confused. Which I did not like. But I pretended to like. Like, he would play me music that he liked, which I did not like, but I pretended to like. It's also like, why do they all have terrible taste?

50:04They have such a bad taste. Or, Jeanette, pause. Maybe it's because they're 30 fucking whatever and you're 18, so there's no way you're going to have the same taste. Maybe when you get to that age, you actually would like that movie or that song. But how are you at 17, 18? I still don't like it. I still think he's dressed. You're like, actually, fuck that shit. Fuck that shit. But you know what I mean? half the time you're like they're showing you shit you're like who yes yes yeah and everyone else in the room that's that age is probably knows what that is yeah because they're of the same decade yes yes exactly okay so he's you guys start hanging out um and then how does it like progress to a relationship um he comes over i don't the feelings part of it like us saying our feelings i don't remember this sort of nature of that but i remember him coming over really drunk one night to my apartment at this point i've moved out of my mom's place i'm very new like also red flags all over i've been living away from my mom for maybe two months and i'm like great okay a relationship that'll be great um and he comes over and he has beer stands on his shirt and he's bumbling around and i at this point in my life i've never had a sip of alcohol so i don't understand And how drunk he is.

51:16Like now I go, okay, he was drunk off his ass. But I didn't know, did you drink one drink and that's how drunk you are? How drunk is one drink? How drunk is 10 drinks? I had no frame of reference. So he just comes over really drunk and we like make out. It's a lot of dry humping. And it's that for months. And I tell him, you know, at that point I was still very, I was no longer going to church. But I was still kind of tied to my Mormon roots and didn't want sex before marriage and didn't feel ready for that. And I certainly was not. in terms of maturity. And so he and I just made out a lot and kind of, you know, dry humped a lot.

51:54Very high school. What do you remember about how you felt about the age gap? Thinking that I was mature, thinking that I was so smart that this could happen. And also, I hadn't really felt a deep connection with anybody my age at that point yet. I had felt one connection with a friend who a female friend who who i still love to this day but she was you know seven years older than me so not not not nearly the age gap that it was between he and i but um i remember thinking like oh yeah there's just something about me that's a little different like i'm special like that's what it felt like for me i'm special i can connect with older people younger people aren't on my wavelength like please and how did he talk about it and justify it Like that.

52:36Like that. Like fucking that. It was, you know, you're so mature. I can't talk to anyone this way. I can't believe how smart you are. Like, are you kidding me? I was such an idiot. I'm so embarrassed. Also, how humiliating that he thought that was smart or even used it as being smart as a manipulation tactic because how stupid of him. Yeah. In the book, the teacher manipulates his student by saying things like, you're so mature for your age, which I am so happy that now in the conversation online and socially, like, I do believe everyone knows that is a red flag. Maybe, again, when you're in it, it may not feel like a red flag.

53:15But I think socially that concept has been spread around enough where people are like, got it. If a man is calling a woman fucking mature for her age, please pause for five seconds and someone protect that young woman. Yes. I think young people are a lot savvier than at that point. Yes. A lot more competent. Which you hope is because. A lot more mature. Now it's sounding like I'm doing the hymn. Oh, my God. No, but I think it's also because of this kind of stuff, right? Yeah. People are finally feeling able they can talk. Yes. Women actually have a place where we can talk about this and we're not being silenced and we're not being made to feel like we're making things up in our head and you're being dramatic.

53:48Dramatic. Yeah, totally, totally, totally, totally. What other similarities did your relationship with this older man kind of share with the one that you write about in the novel? Ooh, what similarities? I think there's this element that both Mr. Corgi gives to the protagonist Waldo and that the person I was in a relationship gave to me, which is that feeling of specialist, that feeling of that it was ultimately my choice, that it was ultimately up to me, that ultimately I was the one in charge. and I think if you feel really powerless, you'll take that bait. You'll take that and you'll go, okay, I really want that feeling of power, even though my gut kind of knows this isn't that.

54:32I'll take what you're saying and I'll try to run with it and I'll try to make it into some semblance of power. If you're that desperate for it, you will take the bait. And I think I did. And I think Waldo does as well. Yeah. You just obviously referenced that you were a virgin when you met him and you were wanting to wait for marriage how did that impact the way that sex oh my god played a role in this relationship okay this begs for a story um he okay so we had a plan he had a girlfriend did i say this no i did not he had a girlfriend okay um felt a lot of um guilt and shame about that for a long time he had a girlfriend while you were seeing him?

55:14While I was seeing him, yes. While the dry hump makeout sessions were happening. He had a girlfriend that he lived with. That he lived with? That he lived with. So where were you guys hanging out? My apartment. And how did he explain the girlfriend to you? That, you know, he's in a relationship and he, oh man, I can't believe. Okay. Yeah. It was tricky because it was initially positioned to me as sort of like, he's not, I'm not going to leave her. I'm not going to leave her, but I want this, which is, I mean, come on, right? I'm not going to leave, but I want to pursue this with you. So it's like, don't get your hopes up.

55:45I can have my cake and eat it too, but you can't. You're going to not have any cake, but I get to have my cake and eat it too. And this went on for, I think we started, like the physical relationship began in maybe August. And by October, November, I was starting to feel like I can't do this anymore. Like it's too difficult to want something this bad to feel this at the disposal of someone else's kind of whims and availabilities and it's these half hour pockets here and there and like I just have to be at his every beck and call and when he calls and I'll go whatever and it was just exhausting it was exhausting and I couldn't do it anymore and then finally once I say that suddenly it's I'm gonna leave my girlfriend I need to be with you I'm gonna leave my girlfriend which what great messaging to send to an 18 year old it's like the whole the whole process was just so twisted um and so I think okay is he gonna leave his girlfriend I hope he's gonna leave his girlfriend I want to be with him whatever his plan is that it's he's gonna go home for christmas break which he actually does go home but he's gonna say that the trip is longer than it is and he's actually gonna be staying at his friend's place and i'm gonna go stay with him at his friend's place we're gonna have a couple nights to ourself which i didn't realize then of course i realized now was like the trial period seeing okay does this actually work can i do i actually have enough in common with an 18 year old to be with this person is that what is this gonna look like um and so So we spent those few days together.

57:06It went, quote unquote, well, and he was going to stay firm on leaving his girlfriend. Around this time, my mom had been hospitalized for having, she'd had a seizure. She was hospitalized and then she got out of the hospital and was going to come stay with me at my apartment. but he was going to come stay with me at my apartment because he was breaking up with his fucking girlfriend so i can't have my dying mother and my boyfriend she doesn't know about and would never approve of at my apartment at the same time right we have a dilemma on our hands so i'm going okay what do i how do i like treat my dead mother with some my dying mother with some kind of respect and can i how do i keep the place for her and how do i do this thing and he's saying i shouldn't have broken up with her it was the worst mistake of my life this is see this is what i'm talking about like you can't he's he uses the you can't meet my needs thing a lot and so i go okay i'll get us a hotel room i'll leave the apartment i'll tell my mom i'm hanging out with my friend which i did and she was like very suspicious very didn't matter she was dying she still had a mother's instinct she was still like something's not right about this who's which friend who how long um so i ran us a room at the sheraton universal right near universal studios that was like my idea of like a good hotel i also love that we're um we're not even acknowledging that why is the 30 whatever year old not getting the hotel room why does the 30 or whatever what does he not have an apartment of his own did he yes he shared it with the girlfriend like why didn't he get the hotel thank you well you know let the 18 year old do it let the 18 year old do it also i was like hopeful maybe we can go on like hogwarts the hogwarts ride it he's like what's hogwarts you're like oh right shit you don't know what i like and i don't know what you like pretend oh my god yeah okay so you're at the cheraton he's completely drunk again doing the bumbling around thing that I didn't know what that was indication of.

58:51And we go into the hotel room and he asks me for a blowjob, which I don't know what that is because I was raised Mormon and because I was homeschooled and I didn't fucking know. He explains to me what it is and I'm like, that sounds kind of weird. I'm nervous to do this. He's like, I'll guide you through it. I'll guide you through it, whatever. He does. And then he's like, I'm going to cum and then it squirts in my mouth. And I'm like, what was that? What was that? Something came out. I thought, did he pee in my mouth what the fuck just happened i did not know what cum was he explains and then that was sort of that was my entry entry point into you know real a real form of sexual activity and it was you know now it's funny but at the time it was really uncomfortable and i didn't i was it was difficult to kind of regroup and figure out well what was that exactly and and this moment of you know this blow job like was it not all under the guise of I just left my girlfriend so like now I'm with you and was there any form of like pressure of like if I left this former person what are you going to provide for me 100 there were phrases like you know similar to I have to know that my needs are going to be met like this is something that I'm I'm a blank year old man, mid thirties man.

1:00:08And this is something that I'm used to. And this is something I have to know. I I'm, I'm respectful of your, it was, it was very, I'm respectful of your boundary that you can't have sex before marriage, but I also have needs of my own. And I think that's something interesting to also explore is because it's not going to be this mustache twirly villain kind of way of saying like, get on your knees, bitch. Like nobody's saying that, but there are, there is a nuanced power dynamic at play and things that can be said in discreet ways that are, you know, now I would know to read between the lines. Now I would know how to have that kind of conversation with somebody at 18.

1:00:36I did not. I didn't. I didn't. And I don't think most 18 year olds know what to do because again, go back to the beginning of this relationship. It starts with your feeling special. Yes. And so when you're feeling so special, but you are the underdog, there's going to be moments where when every idiot is like, well, why didn't you just not do it? It's like, there's so much psychological warfare that you're going through in your head trying to understand, like, how do I keep this thing going? Because it's making me feel so special. And it's like giving you your sense of identity 100 and then yes there's a moment where you're like but they're the older ones like this feels right if they're telling me this is going to be okay and normal like i should trust this person right you're trusting of this person and then it's like to what extent are you like wait i'm fully getting taken advantage of here like i'm 18 this is the person with their right mind and their fully formed frontal lobe has happened yours hasn't yet there's a responsibility that they completely neglect in those situations 100 did you have any similar experiences to that or was it were you had you what was your age gap relationship like had you had other relationships before i had other relationships but they were all very similar in age yes yeah i think with sex for me i felt like there was a performative element that i felt like um it was always told to me and i kind of forget how he would like word it because like you said it's not like fucking suck my dick bitch it's very discreet it's very discreet but i always knew there were other women if I wasn't there that could like take my place and so in that moment where you're not feeling like I don't really want to I don't really want to do this tonight or I'm tired I'm whatever in the back of your head you're like well if you don't like guess what guess what he's going to be able to do and you're going to lose your spot and so there's like a pressure you put on yourself yes but it's not you put it fully on yourself it's because of the things they're telling you but somehow they are not in the wrong and you're you feel horrible you feel like well i should do this right like why don't i want to do this and if i don't then this is going to happen so and it kind of all becomes a game within yourself 100 and they're not even a factor somehow yes yeah i'm also i'm also curious if you had this thing where i feel like sex or you know anything sort of physical intimacy physical intimacy can be confused as it's It's almost like more of a turn on if they're not available.

1:03:05Like it's uncomfortable to say that, right? But there's some element where it's like, I would, I would, things would happen in my body where I would feel the relationship is threatened or I would feel he was pulling the rug out from under me. Okay, he's not as interested. Oh, he's going to go to one of his other options or he's going to go back to his other girlfriend. There's all these other factors that if I would feel one of those at play, you know. Sex. Just, yeah. I'd really crave sex. I'd really want sex. It was, sex for me was a means of finding commitment, was a means, a misguided means of assuming I'd found commitment, a misguided means of assuming I'd found attachment, a misguided means of assuming I'd found safety.

1:03:41But the second that the two of us come, it's gone. It's fucking gone. dude that's so bleak and it's so no it's so real because i i bet so many women are listening to this and it's like saying it out loud is maybe rare to hear that statement that you just said because i don't think a lot of women have the confidence maybe to admit it and i really respect you for saying that thanks because i think a lot of women are gonna watch this and be like Like, yeah, I have had the same thing where you're like in the moment you're just like, I literally don't know what else to do other than physically give myself to this person.

1:04:25And you can feel it in that moment. You're like, yes, yes, yes. And you're right. The minute it's over, you have never felt dirtier. You have never felt more worthless. And it was like a high to go. If anything, you go farther down low. Because you're like, how did I think that this was going to solve anything? They're on their phone immediately after. They leave the room immediately after. And you're literally like, I did the most intimate thing I could give you. And I'm still nothing. Yes. Yeah.

1:04:58It's exhausting. Because what you eventually will come to realize, as all of us will have our moment in life, where you're like, that is not what sex should be. Sex should not equate to power. but when you are in a power imbalance of course as a woman you're thinking this is something i have that i can give to the man right yeah i understand too that this is a process that so many women have to experience on their own and that like here if they're if there's somebody 21 watching that it's it's going to be hard to relate to maybe the things you or i are saying or they're just in a different position and i i wish so badly that i could just have that not happen for women Like, I love women so much.

1:05:41I think they're so much cooler than men. Like, no, you're right. It is like, I guess as I sit here, I'm trying to think of that like 18 year old version of you or myself. Yeah. And what could you say? What could you do? What could you do? Because the way we're speaking right now may be too reflective and to meet yourself where you're at. You have to think about all the insecurities and all the instability. And it would require such like a – I don't know. Or is it you have to go through it? Because I was thinking for you, it's like this is a very common thing for women. And then I feel like for you, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you had such – you had already kind of learned this game a little bit from your mother where if you give her what she wants and what she needs, then you are going to avoid rejection and abandonment.

1:06:39The trigger words, yes. Right. So then this is kind of a similar thing where it's like if you give him what he wants sexually, you're going to avoid that rejection, but it's fleeting. So then how can you talk to me about how the sex continued to play a part of this dynamic for you with this relationship? Because like we're saying, you do it and then it's kind of like, huh. So how much did you compromise your self-esteem and your self-worth in that relationship? And where did sex fall into that? So I eventually did have sex with him. I disregarded my self-imposed rule of no sex before marriage.

1:07:21And that was definitely the right decision for me. I'm so glad that I did that. But having sex with him was – there was this – the only way I can describe it is that there was an addictive component where it was that's the thing that I'm chasing. That's the thing that I'm – my nervous system is sort of hijacked in waiting for. And then when it happens afterward, there's the crash. And then it just kind of ramps up again in anticipation for the next sexual encounter. And then once that tapered off was really when the relationship tapered off. And I felt that with several relationships I was in where it was really – they were really rooted in sex and sexual connection.

1:07:58And I think the sexual connection was actually a distraction from anything else because I thought, well, we're having good sex or having intense sex or whatever, passionate sex, whatever it was that I was confusing as a legitimate connection. But then sex always, I mean, it's going to taper off. It's going to fade. It's not going to have that charge that initially does. And then when that would happen, I'd go, oh, I don't really know if I like what I'm left with here. I don't I don't want to be doing this anymore. How did it ultimately end the relationship? My mom was dying and I like weeks away from dying.

1:08:29And I felt this kind of this mode of almost invincibility of, OK, I like it all has to go. I don't I don't fucking care. But, OK, what means anything? My mom's dying. I don't care about anything. And then we did get back together briefly after my mom died. And then that ended sort of quickly. So it was one of those we were over, but we kind of tried it again for a second. Having other partners, and you kind of mentioned this pattern of the emphasis on sex to avoid the other things going on. Are there any other patterns that you can kind of look back on in romantic relationships that you started to see in partners that you were with?

1:09:11Yeah, all unavailable. All completely unavailable. Whether they had a girlfriend or a mental disorder or whatever, you know, there was something that was keeping. yeah they were not available and i think there was something in me that really relentlessly wanted to chase that and felt like oh if i can only make this unavailable man who is showing me by every measure of availability that he is not available if only i could make him available like then i would then i would matter then i would have some sense of self-worth the more difficult give me a challenge like i'm always up for a challenge that's what i wanted and because that's what you did your whole life with your mother yes exactly exactly exactly you're not available you're not emotionally there for me at all but like hopefully hopefully you'll notice me if i tap dance hard enough and i sing loud enough then like mom was that good and she's like huh and it's almost like again that's the horrible part of a young woman where then sex becomes another thing you can throw at the problem i hate to say it like that but like and it can it is so sacred yes and when you can learn to be like no i don't need to use this to get closer to someone yes it's so powerful but maybe it is like we're saying you kind of have to go through it as a woman and some have to go through it in a much more heightened and intense capacity than others sometimes get away with like one bad relationship and they're like okay never again they're good they know that for you guys love them you know it's interesting because i i'm thinking of um in half his age i wanted to write it it's it's told through this girl waldo's point of view the entire book and it's not we don't have her perspective when she's 30 looking back on it going ah here's here's what happened then which I think can can be kind of a hallmark of books that cover this subject matter is that there's this territory where you get to see the person with their wiser self looking back in in hindsight and I think as you and I were kind of realizing oh I think it's kind of something you have to go through I think that was I literally am only piecing it together right now but I think that was part of the motivation because I kept thinking oh should I have this section later on where she's older and she's piecing it together for real and what it actually meant.

1:11:16But it felt so important to not have that. It felt like I had – I literally could not – that was not an option for me. I had to stay in her experience. It felt so, so, so important. And I think it's because it's going to fall on deaf ears. Like I don't want to be here sitting here preaching or teaching or trying to – like that's not – I don't have the answers. It's just the situation laid out very plainly and take from it what you will. No, it's – fuck. Right? It's really frustrating because you're – as a woman who has gone through a lot in relationships and as have you, I agree. We're kind of sitting here being like, what's the advice?

1:11:55What's the takeaway? And I just feel like especially in the world that we live in today, like, yes, still women are not considered equal to men in this country. That is a fact. And so it's like the only way to like garner strength and to gain strength and to become more of yourself is unfortunately as a woman to go through like extreme adversity instead of just like a lot of times being a man is just like be the man, be the man. It's like are you woman enough? Is constant like is she woman enough? Is she feminine enough? And we're constantly battling as women like are we enough? Are we this? Are we that?

1:12:33And sometimes you have to go through all of that hell to then come out on the other side and be like, all right, I now I'm not going to take shit and I'm going to have confidence and I'm going to do this and that. But like, should we have to do that? Right. No. But is it the world that we live in? Unfortunately.

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1:14:19This 4th of July, as you gather to celebrate America's 250th birthday with friends and family, Hidden Valley Ranch, it will be right there with you. Okay, even if you can't be with friends and family, Hidden Valley Ranch will be right there with you bringing the creamy, zesty flavor. Hidden Valley Ranch is truly, it is the star of any party spread. It is the star of my life. Can you tell? You could prep burgers, wings, kebabs with Hidden Valley Ranch seasoning before you even throw them on the grill. How about that? Or shake Hidden Valley Ranch seasoning onto pasta salad and fries, boom, and then make dip and then maybe dip the fries into more Hidden Valley Ranch, drizzle even more Hidden Valley Ranch onto your burger.

1:15:02Yes, yes, and yes. Listen, my 4th of July, boom, I'm going to have my Hidden Valley Ranch in my purse. If I have to leave the house, boom, I'm pulling it out. Hidden Valley Ranch will be with me at all times, honestly, this entire summer, okay? The possibilities are endless and always delicious. There is no wonder why Hidden Valley Ranch is America's number one ranch, baby. The flavor speaks for itself. Celebrate this summer with the bold and delicious flavor of America. now in a limited edition bottle available at walmart.com slash hidden valley a little bit of a pivot here i i was thinking about you know i think a lot of people who understandably and unfortunately are constantly in survival mode for a good portion of their life can feel restless in secure dynamics have you ever found yourself feeling bored in healthy relationships relationships only occasionally and I try to sit with I really do try to kind of sit with that boredom when I feel it cropping up and recognize what a what a thing it is to be grateful for you know that it's not chaos that there is something so sturdy um in my good moments I'm able to do that and in my not good moments I'm like you know I gotta do something I gotta whatever but take a trip whatever it leads to it's going to be something positive versus something self destructive which it had been for so long but yeah I've been in a relationship now for um nine nine years we were friends we've been friends for 11 years we've been together for nine years and it's so healthy and um yeah every every year it truly gets better but but there are definitely pockets where I you know I my nervous system will kind of want to latch on to like where but where's the chaos where's and I just have to sit with that and and you know journal through it whatever whatever tool works.

1:16:46But it's the element of my life that I'm by far the most grateful for. I think I had this conversation recently with another guest about, you know, when you have abusive parents, sometimes it can complicate your feelings about becoming a parent one day yourself, right? It can either scare you or excite you. And how has your childhood influenced against your idea of motherhood um i don't want kids if that's what you're asking do you want kids i do i think when i was if i think if you asked me in my 20s i really didn't think i did that's interesting because most people know i did not know most people know early on and they stick with that no okay okay so i didn't think i wanted to get married and i didn't think i want to have kids now i got married and i i want kids you want kids okay but it it really changed for me and i think it was just like a lot of self-work that I had to do on myself not saying that like you have to do self-work to want to have kids it just for me in the place I was in my life I couldn't even fathom it yes and then something changed and I think that's okay that I was just like you know what I actually think I do yes and so I don't know when and timeline but like for right now I'm like this is something I definitely know I want and I wasn't sure of okay so talk to me I'm so happy for you that's really exciting what an exciting trajectory and okay so talk to me about how you know you don't want kids?

1:18:07Well, I will say I think I know I don't want kids at this point in my life. I'm also open to wanting kids at some point. So actually a couple months ago in September, I went through the egg freezing process because I don't know if I'm going to change my mind. We've discussed it and neither of us really want kids, but we are also open to changing our minds and being in that process together. And so I didn't want to change my mind 10 years from now and it'd be too late. So I wanted to. How did you decide like what were those conversations like to freeze your eggs? Because I know there's a lot of women that are always like, should I, should I not?

1:18:42Like if you don't mind sharing just kind of the process. No, I was. So the first time I looked into it, I went to a doctor in Beverly Hills, which was, I mean, already a red flag. But I sat down with her and she's like, yeah, the best time to do this was two years ago. But like otherwise right now she starts like drawing this crap, which are always stresses me out when somebody starts drawing a dude, like when a doctor starts to like you should have been an artist if you want to be drawing what are you doing please stop give me the medication what is it oh she's like drawing things she's like drawing these spears going up my vagina and like telling me how she's going to pull out that whatever and i'm like this is terrible it seems awful i don't want to do this no thank you and then about a year and a half later which was this this past summer i started thinking about it again i i went to a different um doctor and they seemed much more comforting i felt much safer in that environment and i thought okay you know what i'm gonna i'm gonna go for it i thought it was gonna be terrible i was warned that it can be really really emotional having these big mood swings.

1:19:33And for me, it was actually really, really not that. It was really straightforward and simple. And I was lucky in that a nurse could come to my house every night. I think it would have been a lot more stressful if I'd had to like formulate the things myself and put the powder in with the liquid and inject it. Like that seems like a nightmare. But having somebody kind of come and administer everything was really, really helpful. And the process was very simple and seemed effective. How would you describe, obviously, we've gone through so much of your life and your childhood into, you know, relationships.

1:20:03And now you being able to write a novel about one of those young formative relationships. Now you're in this nine-year relationship. How would you describe this time in your life? Most definitely the most grateful I've ever been, like by far. The most connected I've been

1:20:29and the most authentic I've been able to be. And there's still so much, you know, road to cover. And so I hope I stay on this path. I hope I don't switch to a different path. But something I read that you had talked about is you really struggled for a while to celebrate your success and to own any of your success, which is so relatable. right it's like if i felt like it would make me rude a bitch diva like whatever to just be like yeah no this is this is where i belong i've earned this this is something that i worked really hard for i deserve this it felt like i had to oh my god i get this thing where oh it's still i hate when it happens sometimes on zooms but i call it my like gee willikers persona where it'll what it comes out of somebody so long gee willikers yeah you shouldn't it's it's a good thing you haven't Okay.

1:21:21Since Leave It to Bieber episodes. But it really is this part of my personality that comes out if I'm like taken off guard in a Zoom meeting. If somebody, I'm thinking of one maybe like six months ago where somebody said like, how do you feel, Jeanette? And I just wasn't expecting it. At the end of the, it was like the closer of the Zoom. Like we'd all heard whatever kind of mediocre news and it's a Zoom that should have been an email that should have been a whatever text. So we're going through the motions and they're like, how did you feel? And I'm just like, I'm just so happy. I'm just so happy to be here with all of you amazing people.

1:21:46I'm just so grateful like i completely reverted to this fucking it's the mormon homeschool seven-year-old just i'm just happy to be here i'm just grateful no no like right and you're like literally and then you replay it afterward and i'm going i wish i would have just been like that's kind of mediocre news but we'll all be fine like we're smart people we'll figure this shit out it's kind of bullshit don't really want to be doing this as a zoom i like half of you half of you i hate you bye then click off half of you wish i hadn't agreed to work with you bye dude you're literally like and thank you i'm grateful then you end the zoom and you're literally like yes yes and i think that creates that thing where it's like this discordance inside when it's why did and then i'm then what happened is i'm beating myself up after the fact of course i'm not i don't wish that i'd said oh i hate happy you but i do wish that i said something a little bit more authentic yes yes oh i'm just don't have to be here is not authentic it's not true i earned my seat at the table but it's like you're we're so conditioned to be that way because the minute if i i have said this so many times if i'm in a meeting with my husband he's like yeah that's not good enough i want to be like yeah that's not good enough instead i'm like um we can progress in a way and i'm like why can't i just say it like that because they'll be like she's a fucking cunt yes and i'm like and so now i sat with shonda rhimes and she was like be the bitch be the bitch and i was like i'm taking that you know i'm taking that into 2026 yes and and half the time it's like be the bitch oh wait no just like say what you're feeling yes and most of the time that means you're not being a bitch yes you're just totally honest totally and then it's on people to receive that information if they take you being a bitch from that then that's on them a hundred percent oh my god um okay we're almost done okay are you having fun i am i forgot that we were filming for a second i'm like okay we're back um this has been really nice i know we're like at the same point we're like sitting here just talking about like life like we're like theorizing about life as women and we're like oh wait yes okay we're still recording a podcast.

1:23:43So overall, what do you think you're most proud of in your life and your career at this point? In my life and career, life, I think that easily goes to overcoming an eating disorder. I think that was the hardest thing I can imagine doing. And I've done it. And I think it's so important to say, they always say to say, you know, you're always in recovery. And it's always, I think that's really negative. I think that's really unhelpful. I think saying, hey, look, I haven't counted a calorie, tracked anything that I've eaten, binged, purged, restricted, nothing in years is a message worth sharing and something that I think a lot of people I hope can benefit from and something that I know my past self could have benefited from.

1:24:22And then I'd say I'm proudest of this book in terms of career. I love this book. I put every part of myself into it, blood, sweat, tears, my heart and soul is in it. And I hope and think that really comes through. So can you talk to me more also about the writing process of Half His Age? Like where did you begin and what was the vision when you first started writing to then what it netted out to actually be? Yeah, weirdly, I had the first idea for this book. It's so strange to me now. When I was 24, I was taking a solo trip to Japan and I was on a Shinkansen, a bullet train. And at this point, I had quit acting like a year prior and I had just been writing every day, getting nowhere writing plays and short films and screenplays and whatever um i had not written any books and i knew i thought oh it's going to be a student teacher relationship and it has to be a book that has to be the format that it comes in um and it was fiction yeah yeah which you hadn't done hadn't done i literally hadn't written any book nothing like didn't even consider i didn't hadn't considered that and yet i knew in that moment and i remember doing a bit of journaling about it and feeling like okay when the time is right this thing's going to come through and i I just have to follow it.

1:25:38And then, you know, however many years, seven years later, it kind of came through in a very palpable way. I was writing something else and I couldn't. It's like this demanded to be written. And I thought, OK, I'll take a couple of days off that other thing and then this will wear itself out. And then I just wound up writing it very quickly, the first draft very quickly. When you go from writing a memoir to fiction, obviously that's like a complete 180. but obviously you like infused themes into the book about your life that or like inspired by your life, right? How were you able to keep a distance with the characters, but also still infuse inspiration from your own life?

1:26:19That's such a good question. I feel like it's really a beautiful aspect of writing fiction is that you can kind of get away with a lot where it's, I can say point of view that maybe I'd be too scared to own in myself. Like this character Walter Waldo is bolder than I am in certain ways. She's who I wish I could have been at 18 in so many ways. And so I can say those things that I can kind of retroactively go, oh, I wish I could have said that. And then I can say it this time around. I can do it this time around. She's bolder and braver than I was. And I respect her character for it. And I think I've learned from the writing of her how to kind of incorporate that more in my own life.

1:26:56this is still a personal piece of work it can't not be for me it can't not be is there any part of you that's nervous or is it all release excitement like what are you feeling i feel i feel excitement am i nervous no i feel it really does feel like i'm just really excited for this has been it's been in myself and my sort of orbit for so long and it's something i've worked on i've been working on for two years while working on other things but it's been it's been a long process and a lot of just kind of me in the vacuum in the bubble of of the writing dome right and now is the is the portion where i get to kind of see that see those effects and see it connect with people and that's what makes it all feel worthwhile do you feel like the work that you have done in therapy allowed yourself to be ready to write this because i know you mentioned like It was kind of like in you weirdly where you're like, I wasn't planning it.

1:27:53And then it kept coming up for me. Like, do you think that's because of the therapy work that you had done? Or was it still just this unfinished business? That's so interesting. I do think that for me, therapy and self-work really kind of ties into career and achievement, all of that. Like, it kind of feels like it has to start with something that I'm working on myself. I think I'm lucky in that way. I don't know if that I think some people can achieve great things and be super successful and like deeply unhealthy and deeply in their trauma and deeply a disaster. Yes. You know, but for me, it really seems like it's one foot in front of the other.

1:28:30And it has to the first foot has to really be in that therapy chair. And then I think everything else kind of trickles out after that. OK, last question. OK. You said I just felt sad. I know me, too. No, we'll keep talking after this. Don't worry. You said in an interview that the more uncomfortable something is to write, the more important it is to write. What types of conversations do you hope your new book will start? I hope it sparse conversations around desire and power. Those are the two areas where I think there's so much to discuss. I think we talked some of it through today, but I think it's just endless.

1:29:08there are endless conversations to be had around those areas and and also loneliness I think I think there's a lot that's said about loneliness and I think right now despite being so plugged in as a culture so constantly I think there's a real epidemic of loneliness and I think I think that's explored in the book too I'm so happy for you like Like it's so obvious that writing has, you said, I mean, from a young age, like you wanted to be a writer. But now to see you walking the walk and living it and now coming out with your second book, like it's so incredible to see you doing something you love so much that's also cathartic and is helping you, but also helping so many other people.

1:29:56from, you know, your memoir. I agree. It's like there are so many people I sit across from that I go to dinners with that I know personally that are in my family that have struggled so much with the parent-child dynamic. And again, that's something that I don't think has been explored as much as it is being recently because of shame, right? Like, how dare you talk ill of family for the first, you know, just that at the surface, but then especially your mother. That's a really complicated dynamic that you took on and you did it so well that I think allowed other people to probably be like, okay, you know what?

1:30:33I can finally now start to also look inward and start to heal myself from that pain that I've experienced. And now this new book, I think there's something so prevalent and important and just honest about the themes that you've brought up that I think we hopefully will continue to explore. Again, I think we were both like in a good way, like we don't know the answer. And a lot of times that means that then this is just the beginning of the conversation. Yes. We don't know the answer. Why has this not been a bigger conversation? And thank you for saying all that. I do feel like my experience of life has so often been like, why is nobody saying this?

1:31:14Whether it is sitting on a Zoom or sitting at a dinner table or sharing a holiday with a bunch of people. It's just like, why are we not talking about anything? Why are we, it just feels like I'm gonna fucking explode. And writing is the place where I can not explode, but explode in that way. I'm not exploding in real life, but on the page and get it all out and hopefully connect in that way. It's, I think, the truest form of myself and the thing that I hope connects the most to people and I think does. Well, all the way back to the beginning of this episode, Maybe that is something people will take from this is like 2026 is the year of say whatever the fuck you actually feel and stop putting on a front and stop pretending to be prim and proper in this or whatever you want.

1:32:00You think people want you to be and just be yourself and see how that goes for you this year. Yeah. I'm going to try it. Oh, fuck. Are you scared? I'm excited. I think it's a great wake up call for all of us because I agree. I think we've been doing it too much. And I hope with your story, you felt like we dived in enough today where your message came across because I felt like it was such a powerful message. And I appreciate you trusting me with your story because it is a very vulnerable and honest one. So thank you for coming on Color Daddy. That's so nice. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

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