John Mayer (REVISIT)

0:00Daddy gang, hello. I hope you guys are having an absolutely magnificent, wonderful holiday season. I am so excited. This week's episode is a re-released episode because we are off for the holidays. But this episode is one of my all-time favorites for the holidays. Do you guys remember, almost I would say exactly a year ago, I released an episode with John Mayer where he gave me a private concert and played me and you some of his absolute classics. It is one of the all-time great episodes on Call Her Daddy. So please enjoy this episode with John Mayer and make sure you watch to the end for a little concert.

0:39If you're new here, he sings so many songs. Get ready to get wet, to cry, and have a merry fucking time. Love you guys. Enjoy.

0:52What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. John Mayer, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you, Alex. I am so happy you're here. John, I think we need to tell the Daddy Gang, who are my listeners, how did we get here? Because we went to a little dinner the other night, and I want to kind of go through what happened at that dinner because people are probably like, how did you get John Mayer to come on your show? There's only one way, which is to find me personally, have dinner with me, be cool, and you're actually an incredible pitch woman for coming on the show.

1:29And I didn't really have an intention of coming on. We had a great dinner, Cassie, David, you and me. And I think there's something to do with December where you've all year been yourself, followed your rules, done what you normally do, don't do what you don't normally do. And I think somewhere in the last couple of weeks of each year, I go like, I want to do something out of character.

2:10I'm so happy this is what you're calling out of character and you get to sit down with me because I yeah I pitched you like why you should come on the show and you and I kind of like battled for a minute meanwhile Kazzy sitting there like eating her chips like loving every second of it just being so happy that it was a debate it was a debate and you decided to come on what i liked about that meeting at um dinner was that you are very sure of yourself have you always been that confident like what were you like in high school oh that's i've had a some degree of confidence it took that to get out of my town to get into the world to push against the forces of people who were saying, not just not encouraging me, but actively discouraging me from doing what I ultimately have done.

2:59And so the quality of that confidence has changed from like a beat down every door, push yourself on people as much as you can all the time to something way more relaxed. So everyone, when they first start out is way more confident than they need to be because they don't know how confident they need to be right oh interesting and so it was kind of obnoxious when I was younger I mean if you're spending your whole youth pushing against these forces of you can't do it you're crazy you're gonna end up on the street this is a terrible idea that's gonna have a hangover effect on you for a long time where you're gonna still keep pushing that's really interesting because I can imagine like I was why I'm asking about high school is because I feel like we can agree that there's such formative years where peer approval socially is so important towards the way that you view yourself.

3:56How did you get along with people and how did people treat you? I didn't and they didn't. I didn't have a presence. I went to school to get it over with and my life began at three o 'clock in the afternoon when I came home and played guitar. so I didn't dislike anybody and I almost didn't even need that particular level of approval I was kind of invisible and I just went to go I didn't really pay attention in class it's it's really hard to explain and there are people out there who I think would understand when you're 13 years old you got five years before you can even do anything on your own and those that was the hardest part of my entire life was from 13 to getting out of high school because you already know what you know and you have to go through the rest of this kind of rote plan that's been set for everyone and i remember sitting in class going like i'm not supposed to be here right like you you're so you're saying you knew what you wanted to do you knew you were going to be a musician you're like why am i in social studies like what the fuck am i doing here did people bully you like were you the like dorky musician or no i was bullied a little bit but i was always kind of big it was tall I remember getting um punched in the arm for flinching I don't know if you've if that's still a thing this is the most butch your show has ever been I'm talking to I love it talking to you about Christmas special we're okay did you date in high school I had one girlfriend in high school but I didn't really date I had one girlfriend in high school what were you like in like uh what was John like in high school dating probably the best version I ever was of myself.

5:34I would like to think that was the best version and the next time is the best version. I only had one girlfriend before everything changed in my life. To me, like the truest, most innocent, realist, like sweetest, it was high school. Did you ever through your fame wonder if you should reach back out? I did. I did reach back out a few times. Because you were looking for what?

6:04maybe to bring that part of my life into the new part of my life. But by that point, she was married and had kids. And I thought that's a separate chapter or, or that thing in my life was a separate chapter. I don't have to talk to people to know that I'm, I'm okay. That we're okay. Yeah. I think that's telepathic. I liked, you said that at dinner. Um, just something about like, there's certain people in your life that you don't need to be in their life anymore, but it's really cool when you have a mutual understanding, whether it's an ex, whether it's someone that was your friend at some point to just be like, we don't need to talk to know like we're good.

6:39We're all right. We don't talk anymore for whatever reason, but like, yeah, I mean, there are a couple little outstanding, still vibrating things. I would love to get to a hundred percent closure. I don't think that's realistic in anyone's life. Do you have someone in your life that it's always going to be incomplete? Yeah, I think everyone has a couple of those, but, but for the most part, it's been important for me. to move on into my adult years in my life with the peace of like, we're cool. We don't have to talk. Okay, so we're about to leave high school because I'm just kind of going through the journey of you.

7:13You performed at your high school graduation. Yes, I did. Were people nice to you then or no? Yeah, that was right around the time where I started to reveal myself as a guitar player. And I was in a band and we'd written a couple songs. We'd written a song for graduation. I didn't actually graduate at that ceremony. So I didn't get enough credits to graduate. I had to go to summer school. And so it was a very deep moment to play that song and walk off the field while the rest of my friends graduated and I walked home. Okay, but just so everyone knows. How bluesy is that? Six years later, you're a Grammy winning artist.

7:53This part freaks me out. chronologically speaking this part is maybe one of the only aspects of my life that truly blows my mind why because it's such a short period of time that felt longer to me i was i graduated in 1995 and six years later i had i was playing arenas or you know at that point i was playing clubs but i had an album out and that would end up winning grammys and that was six that was six years so it didn't really fucking matter that you had to go to summer school you're like i i didn't even need to graduate and you know what i always think now is like there are people who get branded misfit loser you know um um you know in some way sort of developmentally disabled no they're not they're on some other track that they have no school for you know i love that you're saying that too because it goes back to what you said of like i was sitting in that class and i I knew I wasn't supposed to be there, but I had to be there.

8:53It's interesting to hear you say like, it's so crazy to me that six years after I graduate college, I'm winning a Grammy for your body is a wonderland. You were dating someone at the time that you're writing this iconic song, which no, I wasn't. You weren't. No, that was about my first girlfriend. Wait, that was about the feeling, which I think was already sort of nostalgic. I was 21 when I wrote that song and I was nostalgic for being 16. I thought it was about a different. No, that's that's one of those things where people just sort of form that idea. It gets reinforced over the years. No, no, no.

9:33I had never met a celebrity when I wrote that song. And did your high school girlfriend know you wrote that about her? That's a good question. Maybe maybe she didn't. Maybe she didn't. To this day. To this day, maybe she didn't. So if you were my one and only high school girlfriend, that was actually about you. And this happens a lot with songs, right? So I've made a rule. I guess I always had a rule that I would never tell anyone. I don't write songs about people. I don't write them for people or about people. I might use a relationship that inspires me to write something. So yeah, even if I was writing a song because of someone, it's like that goes away and I'm left with the song.

10:23So I'm not, I don't like telling anyone that a song is about somebody because most of the time it's not. And it takes people away from themselves because they're just visualizing who I'm writing about. But the songs come out. They mean things to people. Sometimes people think it's about one person, another. Sometimes it hurts the song. sometimes the song doesn't do as well because people go well he's just petty and I go that's got nothing to do with that but I'd much rather keep the sanctity of these songs intact and have a couple of them kind of burn a couple of them because people think it's about one person and it's not because it's really important the most important thing in my life now is are my songs yep and so when I go play songs now I'm playing songs that I see people in the crowd are reliving their life.

11:12It ain't about anyone but the people I'm singing to. It's now about their college years. It's about their sick family member who died. It's about their fight with cancer and how they beat it. These songs now for people are these waypoints in their lives. It's not about any one person. The first three records in my life was just like proving, proving, and you should. And then you start hearing people tell you, thank you. Your music got me through a dark time. that's so much deeper. I mean, I definitely think everyone should have those prove it years and enjoy them because I definitely did. Like, now do you see?

11:51Now do you see? And I had a lot of that. I had a lot that I had to get out when I first started. And it was obnoxious to them. And I get it. And I think it explains a lot of younger people who have just hit the scene who you're like, this person is obnoxious. I have a lot of grace for it because you never know how hard someone had to punch to get out of their town or their family. And you just, I think that's where people were like, I got the douchebag title a lot. And I was trying incredibly hard. But I had been trying incredibly hard since I first played the guitar to get where I needed to get.

12:32I couldn't get the message like, John, they like you just fine. You can calm down. They like you just fine. Yeah. You know? I really appreciate you explaining it that way because I now too have a different opinion, especially maybe in the music industry or actors and actresses. The way that maybe people are being perceived online and the way they're acting probably is really not who they are. They're trying to elevate to get the attention, to get the approval. And eventually, as you see people in their careers, and you don't even have to be famous to have this. You can be doing it at your job.

13:07You can be doing it socially. You're trying to make a name for yourself. You're trying to have a presence. And it probably feels inauthentic, but you want to be seen. You want to be heard. You want to feel accepted. And that can lead to you feeling like, what am I even being myself right now? So I respect that. That's thank you. I mean, that's what everyone goes through. Everyone, by the time they grow up, have grace for other people on the way up as they fight through those things. the people who are the most vicious are the people who have yet to ask for grace because they don't need it yet because they still have this view of the world like they're in total control and they're going to make all the right decisions for the rest of their lives until they don't and and i feel like that's just something everyone passes through what do you cherish the most about the rise of your career oh that's a great question the rise or where i am now i'll tell you i'll answer both the rise is that it was during a really cool time um i don't think i would have had the same success i have now if i had begun three years ago i think i'd be trying and trying and trying on social media and trying to get things out there i mean there was just so fewer people doing things that you automatically had more people paying attention.

14:30So I'm really lucky that I came up when there were just fewer cars on the road in terms of, you know, making songs and having people pay attention to you and being seen. And now where I am now, the greatest thing is that any idea that I have, I can do. Any idea that I have, I feel like if there was a song idea that I had for any musician in the world, I'd have a pretty good chance of Them at least listening to it And That's really interesting to me That to me is the greatest thing The songs I already have That I'll take for the rest of my life But also Any idea that I have I think any musician in the world Would want to go like I want to hear what Mare has for me So I feel like that's The idea that I could Bring anything to life that came to mind that's the ultimate for me.

15:27I'm interested. So as your rise to fame, how did your interactions with women change? Oh, that's a good question. And I think I saw the approval of women as being something that was like, each time somebody liked what I did, I felt like because of the way that I was brought up, that that was the only time that was going to happen. And so I feel like I was made to believe growing up that if somebody liked me, that was pretty much an accident and that should be capitalized on. And so I felt very deeply when somebody liked me, very deeply. I think Look you know the elephant in the room Is that I'm on a show that Caters to women And I have a couple of Nameplates on me Like Lothario and Womanizer and stuff And I think Look that is what that is That's the role I play on the big TV show that I didn't write That's fine Maybe I had a hand in it or something But I think people would be surprised to know That it was less me going like you know the meme of the guy behind the tree it was less this and more like this me yeah yeah you know because it was it was always set forth to me that like um that shouldn't happen right like without dissecting into your childhood the a woman's approval and attention to you clearly there was an insecurity within you that you perk up and would fight till the end to make sure that you're getting to experience that as long as they're willing to give it to you.

17:29And you're like waiting for someone to give you the approval and that like breathe life into you essentially. And you loved a woman giving you attention or validation. Most of that is true and it's so true. It's like I can't even, I won't even flat spin about that after this is over. I won't even that's some things are too true for me to get upset about. That's remarkably true. What you just said, except it was a little less overt in terms of me being like, yeah, keep going. Keep going. Right. Because I did invest myself. I did invest myself in relationship. Well, and I think we can also agree.

18:08And we talked about this a little bit at dinner. Like there you have perspective now. Right. Yeah. Like we can wrap things into a bow now. it's like oh I see what I was doing in high school why I was so insecure and I was looking for the guy's validation and then like I can now see what I was doing in the moment you have the feelings but you can't put it all into a box you now can be like I get it now I get what I was doing I see the interactions I had and now I see this theme and now I'm able in later in my life to be like whoa that's why I did what I did also known as growing up what a fucking concept also known as growing up and like like I said like the people who are gonna understand this interview the most are the people who've had that either been on the receiving end or the giving end of that you know it's the people who haven't had that yet who will probably have the loudest reactions because they don't understand it yet and we all meet up at the end of this at the end of these crazy 20s and 30s we all meet up and i meet people i can't remember if they were mad at me or if i was mad at them because we all meet up after this craziness and we all go through our own stuff you know we all meet up at the end and i and we go hey how you doing this is i'm sure a hard question to answer what is it like try your best yeah for almost everyone in the world to know who you are?

19:41Because I don't really live exposed to all of it, I don't quite feel it, and I'm okay with it because it's linked to something that I have to do anyway. I get to do this thing. If I'm having a day where I don't like any of this stuff, I can pick up a guitar and listen to myself play and go, that's why you do it. So the fact that this is all linked to something that I do objectively well, that I can listen to and I can write a song, I can play a song, I can play the guitar. That's what anchors me to all this stuff. All of this is happening because I play the guitar, write music and sing in a way that people want to pay attention to.

20:26I can't imagine what this would be like if I didn't have that grounding element. and as I get older I have so much empathy for people who are really well known but don't quite have something to hold on to like a buoy you know my life gives me this buoy which is I can write a song I can play guitar it's tough even that way but it's not like I'm famous from a thing that happened to me or a thing I was a part of that I was no longer a part of because the person who hired me for the thing didn't want me anymore so it's very stable i've come to terms of the fact that's never going to be another way and most of it now because i don't really interface with people for anything other than music for the most part it's like i have manufactured irrelevance in the parts of my career that i want to be irrelevant that is really scary to do it's really scary to come off of that loop when you're in a news cycle, news cycle, news cycle to really go.

21:31I want to, I want to shut down this part, that part, that part, and that part and feel like you're dying inside because those parts are going away. Now all I have left is like people who want to talk to me, want to talk to me about music I make. People aren't, I'm not trending on Twitter just because I got on a flight and it was tough. It was tough to be like, yeah, you're going to play music. You're going to play music and you're going to put it all into that and not day trading how people feel about you. So you're saying that you didn't essentially play the role of the guy in Hollywood, the singer.

22:08Everything didn't work well that people started, like you said, like people started writing headlines. I didn't deserve the role. Why do you think that? It wasn't made for me. I'm the musician guy who writes songs that are like kind of hits. and I thought that I was just through my own manipulation of the thing was an A-lister and I was going to I'm an A-list celebrity no you're not but I had this moment in my 20s where I thought well this is where I belong this is where I should be and obviously it wasn't because I didn't really handle it very well you know I was like didn't handle it very well and And so then that all kind of shut down and I got a chance to start it up again.

22:47And I haven't ever been happier in my life. I'm known for what I do. You're kind of essentially alluding to like you fucked up in your 20s or that. Yeah. Late 20s, early 30s. OK. Yeah. And that kind of set you on a different course. Yes. Yeah. I've got a. OK. But a more natural course. I'm only doing what I should be doing. and and I think there's a lot of people who are stuck in that loop of like not being where they want to be but not wanting to be forgotten and it's scary the idea that if you pulled away you'd be forgotten that if you if you got off twitter you'd be forgotten that if you didn't throw yourself into the mix every day you'd be forgotten it's beautiful to be forgotten in the ways you ultimately don't want to be known you know what is an experience that shaped who you are that very few people know about that's a that's a good one um anxiety deep anxiety before there was a social media that could tell you what anxiety was.

24:01Not to say it makes it any easier, but anxiety feeds off of feeling isolated by it. And so it's a little bit easier now when you can read other people's experiences and go, oh, okay. I mean, having anxiety in mid nineties, late nineties, it's like, you think you're going crazy, you know? And so that to me gave me so much more depth, so much more depth. Those feelings, those feelings of panic, those feelings of the walls are closing in. They come with questions. They come with every question. Why can't I sleep? What's going on in the universe? What's going on in my body? It turns into hypochondria.

24:44Is my heart beating faster? Is my throat closing? Why do I feel my pulse in my ear? And you're on WebMD looking up everything. And whatever that is also makes you super keyed in to yourself in a way that for me, I wrote a lot of, a lot of my music came from wanting answers after feeling really, really lost because I lost my weight just in my head. Like it got to the point where when I would have an anxious moment, I'd be like, well, here comes a song. Do you ever get that? Totally. And, but I think there's points where I was worried that good content sometimes comes at your lowest and it's really hard to describe unless you're a creator where you're wondering if you're self-destructing to like you're gonna write a great sad song if you go through a great breakup I have an incredible episode if I break up with my partner if I but at what cost for you as an individual outside of your craft and your job is that extremely detrimental to just your life I never and I can say this with great confidence I never tried to induce an experience just to write a song ever in my life ever I've never thought if I do this, I'll get material.

26:11I promise you, I would have absolutely in those moments as a 20, 21, 22, 23 year old guy traded every song I was going to write to not have that feeling. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. I would have said, take all the songs I'll ever write, stop this feeling from happening right now. And for whatever that feeling was, it just focused my eyes on the important things what's going on in life what is that's where these lyrics come from you know that's where my first three records are from they're about managing anxiety why Georgia why am I fucking here am I living it right like why am I here you know there's a song not myself on the first record would you want me what that's all about having a panic attack in front of somebody suppose i said i i you know you know would you love me or i don't remember the lyrics like would you want me when i'm not myself like you ever have a panic attack on a date no oh man that's uh that's how you bond with someone right there john that's how you do you often have a yes on a date well i mean they make things you could take now for that but i yeah i'm no i want to okay so i went on a date i was i was going on a date and on my my senior year in high school with like one of the prettiest girls couldn't believe that i'd gotten to the point where like this girl wanted to go to the movies with me i didn't drive until i was out of high school so i was riding shotgun so right there i'm being driven by the girl i'm going on the date with by the time we got to the movie theater and I was eating like Tums because I had such bad nervous stomach this is before like you figured out benzodiazepines and I was eating Tums stomach ache and before we even got out of the car I was like I have a stomach ache can you drive me home and she drove me all the way home and I got home and as soon as I got home I was like I'm deeply uncomfortable in in in a lot of situations And so for a really long time, I would resist going out with anybody because it would make me so nervous that my stomach, I would just be it would be terrible.

28:34This is why I love sitting down with people, because when you think John Mayer, you can get any woman you want right in media land. You could get any man you wanted. Thanks, John. I was saying being a famous guy is like being a hot girl. Oh, that's so interesting. Being a famous guy is like being a hot girl. Okay, well, let me bring up my next question, okay? People have been obsessed with who you've dated in your career. And if you're going through, like, the tabloids and everything, it's like John Mayer is the it guy, right? And recently you joked that you're America's ex-boyfriend. Why did America break up with you?

29:14That's my way of taking some of what I think is the air out of a, you know, That's like elephant hunting in the room. I like the statement. Yeah. I mean, that's how they see it. Bottom line, I'm one guy living one life. I don't need 300 million people in my life to agree that I'm an okay person. Most people, until the dawn of the internet, needed about eight. I've got multiples of eight, which makes me a very happy and lucky human being. I only need to meet one more person that I want to spend the rest of my life with. So I do not need to have this worldwide consensus that I'm an okay guy. What is your type?

30:00Right? Hot, successful, makes more money than you. That's really funny. Well, I mean, every relationship I've ever been in was devoted to the idea that this could go the distance. my entire life, today included, if you told me that I could have a great two months with someone, but it would end on the first day of the third month, I would not be interested. I have always sought potential for long-term relationship. I know what my mistakes were looking back. Not worth talking about. As long as you do the accounting, as long as you do your homework as a human being, as you stand in the shower, and you waste a little water, and you go, yeah, I really meant well, but I did do that.

30:49Or, yeah, they meant well, but they did do that. And you go, wouldn't do that again. I would approach that a different way, maybe even from the beginning, maybe even from day one, seeing them across the room, who knows. As long as you're aware of what those things are and how you can apply that to the next relationship, I don't see a problem with any past relationships ending badly. I agree. I just don't. I mine are different because they are well known and I have not had a relationship in a lot of years. And it's funny how I think I started to notice like people would look at pictures of hot dudes on the Internet and be like, I love this guy.

31:32And be like that picture is from 2002. You know what I mean? and it helps me understand that we tend to hold on to the part of someone's history that we that sort of revealed itself the most or was the brightest the most easy to visualize and so I still look I'm still in a lot of people's minds in a good way doing something I'm not doing anymore whether they're attached to a record or a tour I was on they still want to share are YouTube videos of a tour I did in 2014 or whatever and there are still people who go oh yeah he's the he's he's the man whore or whatever you know but it's not on each and every person to update their knowledge of me every year you know what I mean but it's like you haven't updated your Facebook status there you go everyone's looking at that's actually 2009 that's actually a brilliant observation it's like the world creates my Facebook status but but so here's here's why that's okay.

32:29If somebody gets you a little bit wrong, if you said something and someone recounts it and they get one word wrong and it makes something sweet sound not sweet, you're going to jump out and go, that is not what I said. Here's how I said it. You're going to fine tune that thing that you're being misunderstood for. There comes a point where if you're so misunderstood, it's almost like they're thinking about a different person. So the me that most people who don't know me are thinking about is so far away from me that I don't actually feel I don't actually feel like disrupted in any way by it they're talking about a character or a thing that's been like an artifact right like this one little glitch that sort of grew and became this other thing I don't feel the need and I hope you don't think this is like me going like let me set the record straight no no i'm i'm you know you're just taking us through your psyche yeah being being being misunderstood at this age is nowhere near as painful as it was being misunderstood in my 20s and a lot of the shit that i did in my 20s was an attempt to reset the misunderstanding and i made it worse someone said to me years ago you're trying to eat the monster that's trying to eat you.

33:49I've never heard a more true thing said to me. And I look at other people right now and I go, Elon Musk, you're trying to eat the monster that's trying to eat you. I see it and I have grace for other people trying to do it. We haven't learned that retreat is an option. Retreat is an option. I don't know where this idea of stubborn fight to the death stuff came from. You'll lose everything. It's really interesting to hear you talk about it because what I think we can also get to and you don't have to be famous to have this being misunderstood there is something inside of all of us at one point when you start to feel that it's a really exhausting scary feeling and you really want to fight to correct everything if you if there's a rumor about you in high school if you if something happens at your job and people see you the certain way you start to spiral and then there's that moment where all of a sudden after so much fighting so much clawing someone trying to eat them all right yeah you're like at peace with like i don't give a fuck because you're good with yourself your reality is stronger than their ability to distort it and at first when it's not it's one of the most sickening frightening painful things to have your reality distorted.

35:07And if you're smart, theoretically, you start coming up with a plan to engineer how to undistort the reality that's been distorted. And that's the beginning of the failure because your behavior stops being natural and starts being what I did. If you're going to distort me, I'm going to distort me.

35:32I lost myself in that the idea of I'm going to be more like you think I am as a way to somehow phase cancel what it is as if playing into it would make everyone in the world who shares my exact thinking go oh he can't be that because he's acting like that he's in on it so that didn't work and that didn't work and that and it was like I look back sometimes I go like you could have retreated and nobody knows how to retreat because the stakes are so high. The stakes are so high. You've got half of the world going, you love it when you do that. And the other half of the world going, you're losing your mind and you go, well, I know one thing, can't give up now.