Katy Perry: Narcissists, Blow Jobs & Red Flags

0:02What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

0:13okay here we are here we are katie perry welcome to call her daddy thank you i am so happy my first question for you oh my god she's already turning the tables no is how edible are these are they a prop they are edible they are they are you refill them we do refill them but i don't know the last time that i've refilled them but i eat from them and i eat the blue mostly what is your favorite sour patch color blue and red blue and red i'm a blue and kind of freak like i'm a green girl you know how crazy it is i saw a meme of like a mom hand that had like only red and pink and she's like i have these so my kids can have these and it was just orange and yellow that's whatever color what other color is left and i was like that's that's a little you you love this here's a little green you stinker

1:20what is your star sign scorpio five times so all of my risings moons all that what does that mean Can you give us like the Scorpio rundown? Well, I'm kind of a cusp Scorpio with Libra. So Libra to me, and this is my paraphrasing, there's a lot of other people that are much better at this than I'm going to even give you right now. Libras are the arts, liberation. And so I feel very connected to that. They're also very good with reason and organization. And Scorpios are like really intuitive. intuitive that's like our secret power is intuition and being five scorpios in one it's like when i walk into a room that's why it was kind of like we were we were talking before this and i was looking i was just getting all these context clues all that is information for me to know what kind of person how far i can go am i safe yeah are they good are they here with me all that so scorpios are very intuitive and for context everyone watching like katie walked in we went through a whole tour of the house she's walking around we got upstairs she's like actually let's go in the backyard we did a whole walkthrough and no one's ever done that with me and I actually appreciate it because you're like showing that you care and you're interested and you want to know what's up you're also building a business and so I like to see how you build I like to see your entrepreneurship I like to see what your next steps are I'm invested especially in like an alpha female a female that is self-sufficient that's taking the lead I resonate with all of that Coming from you, I just have to say thank you because I have literally been the biggest fan for forever and everything that you've built.

3:01Like no one can say anything other than like you're an icon. So thank you for like taking the time out of your busy life to come here. Seriously. You're one of my – thank you. And you're one of my only interviews because I feel like you get it. You get it. You speak to the people in a way that they want to hear. You know, you're super relevant and like you're real. authenticity is really important to me i kind of grew up in a non-authentic childhood and so i was always looking for like who's the most authentic in the room who's gonna cut all the small talking like look me deep in the eyes and go go straight for it right should we acknowledge my dog that's here i don't know if we should it's a real dog oh my god this is nugget nugget um all of my fans know her but if you don't know her her name is nugget and she's almost 10 years old.

3:50She is a permanent puppy. She's a micro teacup. So you see a lot of teacup poodles. She is 10 years old and she's a, she's a great dog. I was more of a cat person and I think I'm actually going to get a cat again very soon. I feel it in my soul. How many cats have you had in your life? Two. What are the names? Kitty Puri. Kitty Puri. Wait, that didn't hit until it hit. It hit. okay and then the other one was um uh crusty crusty what like what inspired that um it was combination of my ex-husband and i's name love crusty rusty crust katie crusty okay yeah r.i.p kitty purry um but she is kind of like a cat dog in that she's she travels with me everywhere and she's always on my lap she looks like she's about to fall asleep do you think she will fall asleep interview i don't know she i mean she's a she's a good girl i think that my dog her breath is is literally like disgusting just like the inside of an asshole it is so i mean not that i know exactly but maybe but we all know what we all know what butt smells like because we all have one we do and i have a child so i really know in another way right right i've changed a lot of diapers and this is what the inside of her mouth it's like a mouth only a mother could love you know so it's real love you're like I really love yeah she needs another little dental operation she'll get there I don't want to put her under too many times she's so small we're happy that you brought her because it's giving I love dogs I have two dogs myself they're golden doodles I feel like they'd get along with nugget so thank you for bringing nugget today I want to go through some of your iconic moments because specifically with music videos you are the queen of going all out for these things I'm curious I feel like this is like the hardest question to ask but if you had to pick one of your favorite music videos that you've ever made tell me or you can do top three um okay I like I mean I loved walking onto the set for California Girls it was just like it felt like I was at my own bespoke Disneyland because I had an artist um and the director who was great as well but the artist who kind of looked over the whole thing that made my teenage dream cover will cotton he made these props and sets come to life in a way that like i don't even know does it even exist like that that was a different time of course um so i loved that one i loved et of course um i do a lot of flying and attempting acrobatics sometimes like i have a another uh video coming out where i'm doing a lot of wire work oh very soon yes that's really fun but uh yeah I mean I like I like world building I am a big fan of Disney and a huge fan of Walt Disney and the worlds that he created and just I love this a little escapism and I think I love it because early on I was trying to create a different reality than what I was born into and I just my imagination would just build these worlds yeah you know like Minecraft I was just building my own worlds all the time and um I think that uh it's fun to have that release and when people come to a concert especially my concerts it's like a whole it's sensory overload no I was gonna say I think that's like very relatable for anyone that's in the creative business I feel like a lot of us started because we were like imagining things that didn't have to do with like the immediate of what was going on in our lives yes and so you can really run with it and I think it's been really fun to watch throughout your career like you've maintained a pretty consistent like theme even though everything changes and looks slightly different obviously you're always pushing the creative boundary so you're the type of person because we're going to get to I'm not ignoring everything that you're saying about like your upbringing because I want to get there but you oh I'm good no you're like actually I'm feeling I'm feeling really good I love I I've made so much peace so much forgiveness so much wholeness I'm super happy um but are you so you're the person that's like I want to try to like get on the wire and like do the wire work and like do the flips and all these things or is someone being like are you down today Katie oh no I'm in I mean like I'm I'm I'm doing all the stunts and and sometimes they're like you're not allowed to do that I'm like I'm fine you're fine let me do it I don't like to overthink I'm just like yes and we can do this you know I have a great team I've had from day one wow they are such a wonderful sounding board and it's been imperative to the success of my career because they are not afraid to say no and or you need to take a beat yeah or and also fuck this noise let's go I was gonna say I feel like that's huge for people in your position to have the right people around that's where the five Scorpios come in right there you go I will no I'm doing this I'm like constantly are you here for all the right reasons you know I'm interested to get into like romantic later to hear that how that plays into like decision making moments I'm gonna test you I'm gonna test you I'm gonna test you do you really love me do you really love me oh really well how about this did you always from like day one of being a young girl like want to be a famous singer like was that the goal I mean fame never came into my mind I think it's a byproduct of everything that everyone's successful at I just wanted to be um seen period end of story and I found my magic trick when I was nine.

9:22And I started, you know, that was my thing is like I started singing and then the room would freeze. And so I was like, oh, this is interesting. And then I enjoyed it and I just kind of soothed me. It healed me. My mother called me bird from a very young age because I would sing myself to sleep when I was little. Then I picked up a guitar at 13. I started singing at church at nine. I started writing my own songs at 13. I made a gospel record when I was 16. And so I always wanted to be on the stage. My father is, was a minister and he was on some sort of stage. So I always kind of watched that.

9:55I had a little bit of an example of that. Got my big, big, big break at 23. But before 23, I was in LA at 17. I was broke. I didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out. So what my Southern father would say. um but I was hustling and I was always saying yes I can yeah I'll be there I'll fill in tap me in coach right it was struggle bus I had two cars repossessed I was signed and dropped by three different labels like people only kind of know me maybe because of teenage dream and the whirlwind and success of that and the accolades blah blah blah but like I remember very specifically being 19 in my black jetta that i got you know with my my small allowance that i got when i had first done a first signing trying to meet friends at the chateau marmont classic yeah but parking in some illegal spot somewhere in the neighborhood because i couldn't pay the 20 dollars going there and there's a big big fabulous party and it's 14 people at a long table and i sit down i have a glass of water side salad that's it and then at the very end everybody's like let's just split the bell and I'm like my debit card is like shaking I am that meme you know and so I go into the I literally go into the bathroom and I just like start crying I just like I don't know and someone ends up taking care of me but the that was every day from 17 to 23 couch surfing you know just just being just being like it works yes go onward it doesn't work no onward you know but that feels like from what I've like read about you is like that feels like a theme in your life because prior to being 17 if you go back to your childhood you've talked about having been on food stamps as a kid yeah my family had that time I mean we were only by the grace of what the church could offer us which fluctuated all the time that was that was our livelihood and you know we it wasn't very much can you describe your personality as a kid i was black sheep i was i came out of the womb going hmm tell me why you know why do you think that is i'm curious i'm super curious and that has been my education my whole life is my curiosity and that curiosity has just continued to unravel the layers of life and you know i know myself so much more because of my curiosity um and so I just was like nothing was so um black and white for me it was infinite you know it just I was like there's so much more out there how would you describe your household growing up my household was a little volatile there was a lot of stressors money being the biggest one the biggest one I think um and having three kids I mean look I have a child and and you want to go okay I love you Go ahead, sweetie.

12:57Good job. Just don't. Don't take. Oh, you want to go. You want to go up there. Hi, sweetie. OK, you can come up. I'm not going to lie. I'm feeling a little confident right now. To anyone who's listening and not watching. You're the animal whisperer. Katie's dog has departed off of her chair and I now have nugget. Oh, she's leaving. Goodbye. I love you. OK, that was an honor. Bye bye. So you were saying it was a little volatile. It was a little volatile. um okay so like i have a child yep and after having my child i always respected my mother but the level of respect for my mother my parents in general it just went through the roof yeah because i was like how did you keep us alive without ipads you told us to look out the window oh, what were you thinking?

13:51I do think my parents with the tools that they had and their own upbringings really did the best that they could. And my mother, you know, she is a saint. She sacrificed every step of the way. She was the last to sit at the dinner table every single time. Some of my alpha-ing, which is now a lot more in balance, is maybe a reaction to all of that. Like, oh, we didn't grow up with money. I'm going to make it. Let's go. Because I'm never going to be in this position. I don't want to feel this feeling again. But I'm aware of that now, right? Interesting. I chose someone like Orlando because there was a lot more equal energy there.

14:31Interesting. And he wasn't intimidated by the power. And yeah, he wasn't sure. No, I have so many questions. when we get out of like dating a man that is intimidated by a woman's success is such an interesting dynamic to close out kind of that like your parents practice a very strict version of christianity yes right how did that like impact your day-to-day life growing up i went to church on sunday morning on sunday night on wednesdays we i've have i ever been trick-or-treating i think i've been trick-or-treating once i wasn't allowed to trick-or-treat why it's a pagan holiday and the devil's holiday or whatever, you know.

15:15We had a prayer meeting instead. We didn't even acknowledge it. I wasn't allowed to eat Lucky Charms because luck is derivative from Lucifer. You know, my mom was and still is really good at finding the positive in everything. And I do that. But I think that's the gorgeous part of growing up, right? Is like taking what your parents give you. Yes. And we get to kind of be like no to this, yes to this, no to this. and then you make your own reality. They gave me my compass in a lot of ways. They really gave me a lot of integrity. They taught me how to treat people. Did you ever go through a rebellious phase?

15:49I'm still in it, baby. The nipple rings? No, I'm not rebelling. I'm just being myself. Yeah. You know, I'm finding, I'm playing. How was sex and relationships described you growing up? Like, were you, I'm assuming it wasn't too sex positive in the house? No, no, no, no. Like, Katie, get after it, girl. No, no, get after it. No, I wasn't really allowed to even acknowledge the opposite sex. Okay. There wasn't a lot of talking about it. And that's okay. I mean, they did what they knew how to do, right? I didn't even know how to use a tampon until I was like in high school. I didn't even know how they existed.

16:27I was like, do I have eight holes? In sex ed, they teach you now at school. But I didn't have that upbringing. I didn't have that education. I was kind of homeschooled, went to the Christian schools and they didn't really teach that. So I was like, what is this? So I'm like on swim team, still wearing a fucking pad. I'm like, the girls are like, girl, that's why you're last. You have a flotation device. Let me show you how to like do this. I was like, oh, well, this works. No, I had no other way. I didn't know. But it was the girlies that helped. I was going to say, I want to make every woman feel so seen, especially because you're making them feel seen of like there are so many women that grow up and are completely detached from the belly button down because they're like I don't know what I'm supposed to do down there you never even took a mirror down there never like I mean even to this day guys are like you got to take the tampon out to pee we're like no no you cannot be president no you just need to go back to biology class why I wanted to kind of just like establish all this to anyone who like didn't know and I knew you came from a religious background but then one of your first giant hits is I kissed a girl yeah which is a complete departure from what we're talking about how did this song come to be because I can imagine like what did your family think tell me everything my sister told them that it was coming out I was like you gotta deliver the message I moved to LA when I was 17 and it was just you know it was it was just a whole different perspective boom I met different people I'm like oh you're not an you're not a bad person I grew up thinking you were this way I was taught this way oh you're not so I saw more humanity and then even like traveling around the world once I had my success I was like whoa call these cultures believe in this and this is how they work and all this education and all this oneness I feel from really observing people and getting to know them that was my education at 17 and like that's when really my sexuality started and experimenting and like not having as many rules and restrictions I had those experiences and then I sang about them and I was like oh so your sister told your parents yes no yeah you had everything recorded they had no idea this is coming out well I was 23 at that point so I was a young adult yeah you know but it was it was tough it was tough for them when any child takes a departure when any child doesn't become the doctor lawyer you know it's tough like I'm gonna have my tough moments too I'm sure even now my daughter sings a song peacock dancing around the house that I wrote as like a double entendre funny song about dicks and I'm like don't sing that song and then you know actually there's been so many people that have sang that song and so many young people that have sang that song and so I want to come on Call Her Daddy right now to say I'm sorry and I and and thank you and we'll get through this together and my karma has now served me I was gonna say you're staring at karma and your little baby girl and you're like oh my god she's doing it yeah she's doing what I bought her a ballerina peacock outfit from the London Zoo and someone in the house put that on because she loves to listen to Roar and Firework and they're like oh you should hear this song and then it's never been the same and I've never been the same but like you know what I deserve this I'm moving forward deserve this no that's adorable anyways so yeah I mean sexuality really started for me when I was 17 how would you describe your life changing when things really started to blow up it was a rocket it was a real rocket and it was like can you hold on and I wasn't present for some of it it was really tough to be present for some of it I was like oh you know every day was a different city and and I'm really just grateful as I sit here at 39 that I'm alive that um I have tools that um I'm grateful it's the first thing out of my mouth every single day is a gratitude prayer is like the first thing it's my very first thought it's the first thing that I say I I'm grateful I have a home life which is a sanctuary which is an anchor while I was having all these number ones my personal life was in shambles you know and so like that was totally out of balance and then it shifted along the way now it's been doing this but that's okay because actually my core is intact my foundation is intact my joy is no longer at the mercy of anyone or outside of myself my joy is within me so but it's been a long journey and there is no there there like I invest a lot of time and resources into uh therapy retreats evolution yeah even you know medicine journeys all that stuff I just want to I want to evolve I want to not come back to this prison planet your second album you had five number one singles And at that point, no one had done that other than Michael Jackson.

21:37So like, oh, my God, you are now like the biggest star in the world. What type? I had no idea, by the way. What? I had no idea. And I also like asked my managers. I'm like, is this normal? Does this happen to other people? Because I was like, is this like especially as they kept on going? I was like, is this like what is this? What's happening? What is happening? Because I was on tour, too. I was like, I remember asking that question. I'm like, is this normal for an artist? And they just started laughing at me because obviously they're, you know, know managers that have managed so many people they're like right this is not normal and I was just like well okay I never even really celebrated being like I didn't even know how to like take it in didn't I never knew how to take in compliments none of it and I was just like you don't really like me because I had this imposter syndrome we see it every few months someone rises and it's like oh my god they're the most famous they're the biggest ever and what I feel like I've literally had so many people sit in that chair and tell me like I was barely able to comprehend what was happening I was just trying to keep my head above water because then everyone starts looking at you it's a very like unnatural thing and the talent that you have is now there are so many more things that come with the talent of like the eyes and the pictures and the tabloids and the gossip did you ever put like so much pressure on yourself when you were having that level of success like another one another one or were you more like lenient on yourself I knew the feeling of what a good pop song made me feel like yeah I still know that feeling and whether people resonate with that or not I still have it when the goosebumps hit when the tits get hard I'm like these are visceral physical reactions to this freak this magic frequency feeling right um and so no I was I was never chasing anything I'm just all about creating I'm a creator it's worked at times it hasn't worked at times it's been an amazing journey and it's really a journey for me to evolve you know that everybody else is kind of on this like watching but it's really just about this is my this is my life and this is my game and this is how I'm living it and and some people are learning it and some people like take these songs that I write mostly out of like if I when When I wrote Firework and Roar, I wasn't feeling that way.

23:57I was actually feeling the complete opposite. And I was like, what is going to pull me out of this depressive state? What is going to pull me out of this sadness? I'm going to write a song that's hopefully going to encourage me. And then it encourages... So many. Yeah, like a generation. And it becomes this ripple effect. I mean, the fame has always just been a byproduct. And I see a lot of people going through it now. and I reach out to a lot of those young ladies and I'm like yo there's not a lot of people that have been through this so if you ever want to like have a very discreet you know tea indoors let's do it let's talk let's vent like I kind of know what they're going through it's a different landscape now so I don't want to assume that like I know everything but I think the feelings are probably very similar like yeah the loneliness so many people staring at you you being expected to hold yourself to a certain standard that no one is even teaching you you just kind of have to figure it out yeah there's no rule book there's no playbook really because no one you're talking to is going to give you the advice that has been through it i didn't really have like examples growing up and nor did i have an education so i've just been like all right let's let's let's learn let's fail let's and and I fail in public I make mistakes in public and I'm like okay well I made a mistake let's keep let's go let's go I mean that's that's the tough thing is is sometimes you know this thing doesn't allow you to learn and the process of learning anything is by trying and not acing it yeah but it's interesting Katie when you're talking about that because you're a human being and you're this like mega pop star and so you've referenced it a couple times and I want to go there like your 20s while you're on this insane rise to fame you're also trying to figure out your personal life can you just lightly talk to me about like you in your romantic life in your 20s like what was that what was going on in your life then

26:16you in your romantic life in your 20s like what was that what was going on in your life then well I've always been like monogamous and I've always looked for partnership and for someone to witness me I even called a record witness because of that feeling so I wasn't um doing very many one night stand type things and I didn't do a lot of dating and I met people in my industry you know but I was always looking for long-term monogamy that's what I related to and long distance really worked for me what do you think you were like as a partner like in a relationship oh when though what time of life because in your early 20s in my early 20s what were you like as a partner?

27:02I was really, I was wild. But I was on a crazy wild ride that probably made me very moody. I mean, I was also zipping all over the world for a day here, a day there, and my circadian rhythm was completely upside down. So there was a lot of other factors to bring into the equation of me being you know whatever hot fiery personality as well did you have a type do you have a type i really value presence um i i value loyalty um i value um adventure so orlando and i are super adventurous we just like literally jumped out of a helicopter together into the water I mean he's way way more adventurous I mean he has no fear threshold I'm like I'm good my karma is good I don't need to press my luck I value humor I value lightheartedness I value problem solving I value playfulness like to be playful is so important is so important imagination and playfulness that is to me intelligence that is to me like the currency that I look for I value strength but not just like like there's a lot of people that can be powerful and like strong in the world but crumble personally in behind you know in their private lives and like they could be man children you know they could be stunted at 12 they could be man children yes I've dated a man many men and they and those and some of those guys have like a lot of outward success they're financially like you know fun but like they're then you're like they're that's the thing it's about balance and that's the thing for me is like I didn't have that balance either I was like oh my god number ones number ones and then also you know going through a divorce and and like not knowing which way was up really when you look back at previous relationships like what are some red flags that you now know as the Katy Perry sitting here are like oh I maybe avoided those or I maybe ignored those but now I look I'm like I've never put up with that now anyone that is constantly changing the goalpost or pulling the rug out from you emotionally not it they don't they just don't have their stuff they don't have it figured out so how can they how can you they be a team player with you anyone that says that they know you better than you know yourself so rough you're like whoa okay i've lived in this body from day one like we've been dating for a couple of years right you know what i'm saying or whatever um anyone that won't show up for you like i was in a relationship uh at one point where they never came to anything that i did i was on a big tour they never came to one show like not one and it was was like really like this they just won't show up for I don't know what reason that was they just couldn't handle me in boss mode of sorts quite possibly um and yeah those are some red flags and then also like someone that won't just help yeah help around the house like share the load or help the load be lighter the load can be so heavy for women and there's so many invisible things that we do and it's literally about sharing that load the just like I like like Orlando and I we do a lot of couples therapy and we want to evolve that's like I think why we're in our relationship is to become better better humans so that we can raise this beautiful human being one of my love languages is acts of service so it's like if I come downstairs and the kitchen is clean and you've done it all and you've done all the dishes and you've closed all the pantry doors you better you better be ready to get your dick sucked i mean like literally that is my love language i don't need a red ferrari i can buy a red ferrari just do the fucking dishes i will suck your dick it's not easy sorry don't you know it's facts it's facts and even when we went on like a couples retreat they're like which guy has more sex the guy that drives the ferrari the red ferrari or the guy that helps out with his wife every night in the kitchen in the kitchen was the answer in in the kitchen and orlando knows all that and he hears me and he's he meets me there now he does the dishes ladies i mean well we are fortunate to have a housekeeper but on the weekends he knows that like that's important it means and i okay there's so many things to say also if you can afford to get an electric toilet get a fucking electric toilet get a room buffing that just goes around get a boomba all of a sudden your battles choose your battles men listening get a room but you're gonna have so much more sex so much more sex the room stock price toilet seat goes down by itself so much more sex it only turns on you when you have like a hangover and you're throwing up and the toilet seat just goes down he's going down katie so dark katie you're like i'm so successful bunk i'm not done i'm not done throwing up gunk okay rewinding for a second because i think it's so important what you just said for women listening is the feeling of so i have had someone say that to me before i know you better than you know yourself that is a full manipulation tactic to make you question every fucking thing you're doing so if anyone is hearing that in their life right now that is a red flag we're here to tell you like that's a red flag and typically they'll follow up with like if you leave me you're gonna have a really hard time or your life is gonna change or it's gonna be shit and so question yourself you're like what i mean does do they you know like i was fine before i met you yeah kind of kind of kind of there are there have been some relationships that have really helped me orlando in in for one i was going through a really tough time in 2018 and he was not shook wow and i showed him the worst of me i was like here's the next test i'm gonna show you the craziest bitch you've ever seen and he's like i ain't shook and i'm like he's like i love you you're my baby daddy i was like if you're not shook by this then we're going the distance let's have a kid no we're gonna get to orlando because it's like from i feel like i'm talking to a lot of my friends recently who are in these positions where it's like, is this person the one or is it time to move on?

33:50And that is so scary because like you build lives with someone, right? I think relationships are just about growing. And if you're not growing, both of you, if you stopped growing with a person or you've graduated, it's time to go. You know, it's time to go. If that person doesn't want to grow, it's time to go. It's, I don't know about ones. I think it's just about are you on a journey do you want to evolve together like in previous relationships some people didn't want to do any of the work together and it's like we're really just here to sharpen each other yes we we are each other's mirrors and we see like both the best and the worst because you in your partnerships they see the absolute worst version of you so it's then their responsibility to help show you that in a loving way that like you don't need to operate out of that you know so true and like yes it's so hard to get out of things that aren't right for you anymore but we all watch especially if you're like if you're like partners on youtube or if you're like if you've got a platform together you've got all this invested business together and you know like you have an apartment together you have furniture together you have whatever you have all of it and then you're like how do i get rid of this and it's like or if you have a child together that's the next step you know it's like that's even there's a lot of people that have had children they're like well I'm gonna stay in this for 15 years you know I know it's complicated but it is you talking about your experience is so helpful because it's like life goes on and it actually is better to be happy than to stay in something that you're not happy in but trying to make it all work well happiness is relative because it's really about it's not about happiness it's about it's about evolution because life is hard life is not peachy keen jelly bean people get sick you know people have accidents life sucks sometimes it's about what you make of those moments it's like how do you find the opportunities of growth how do you find the positive it's it's not just happiness it's not just dopamine it's it's it's it's equanimity it's finding the light in the darkness you're so right it's like finding that person that you want to go through those really hard times with like that's when you know a relationship is like going to stand the test of time for however long you want if they're not shook if they don't leave you know I want to ask you another question that you mentioned about you know being a boss and being so successful and how intimidating that can be to partners and I'm sure like you kind of just mentioned you've been in relationships where and I've been in it where I've dated guys that I'm like oh my god you're so intimidated by my success and they don't even know how to verbalize it and for a minute if you're not in the best place like i've been there where i for a moment was like oh should i dim myself more should i maybe not i have dimmed right i have dimmed you dim because you're like you can't see it immediately you also want to play the game play a role not be too much so you're like okay like maybe i should take off this day so he feel but and now i'm taking up space bitch I'm taking up space and it's like you can't win with those people and I feel like it's hard with the there's one girl listening and she's like they're talking to me I have to go they're talking to me I have to get out of this but that's what's so crazy about this show is like I legit Katie have people after this will DM me being like you guys were talking to me like if you are with a partner that is so intimidated by your success no and you keep making yourself smaller you're not with the right partner have you ever heard of someone say your partner should be saying I'm so proud of you babe can I do anything to help you I'm so proud of you even if it sounds like even if they're saying it like they're clocking in sometimes you're like because you know this is my love language you know vocalizing it's like thanks for saying it I appreciate it and not making it feel like oh my god I have to quickly finish because like he's gonna be mad like or I have to hide my success or I can't celebrate I've been in relationships where I've had number ones where like I've been, you know, or, or, or one things or gotten to like big parts of my life or made my first like million dollars or whatever, where I like, do I tell them?

38:02Do I not tell them? Like, do like, do I just slightly like, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, it's, and no, it's crazy. It's like, you're sitting here. Everyone in the world is like you're so successful you financially career wise you know with your life they must so many people I bet are like you had to dim your success for man it literally comes up everyone everyone it's a human experience nobody yeah I mean I mean I also remember I wasn't born into any of this Like this is like all a product of my of my talent and my hard work and my hustle, you know. So like not that not that people that were born into something don't have that because they do because they they actually have a bigger crust to bear and they have to fight in a different way.

38:54I think everybody has to play this human game whether they like it or not. Insecurity and like going through the waves of a career. You referenced earlier Witness. And in 2017, you released Witness, the album, and it didn't chart as high as your other ones. And I think this is also going to be helpful to other women listening of like, in moments where you are competing with yourself and comparing yourself to what you've done in the past versus, oh my gosh, this didn't do as well. Like, how did that affect you and your self-worth and your career? And like, where was your head out during that time?

39:27Oh, it was just universe's way of saying, oh, you preach a really strong message of self-love. Let's see, baby. So I was like, oh, okay, here's the real lesson. Let's see. And it's interesting. I heard like when ships, you know, big, these big ships out in the ocean, they go off one degree off chart. They land on a different continent. and yes like at that time things were changing by like small degrees and I felt like I was on a different continent because I had only experienced you know my before success it was like am I enough I'm gonna show you prove prove prove I was right whoa I was fucking right let's go And then it shifts and it changes and it settles for everyone.

40:20There's maybe a couple it doesn't, but like it settles and hold on tight because life is all about peaks and valleys. The valleys are where you sow the seeds. The peaks are where you enjoy the views and the fruits, but you wouldn't even know the light cannot exist without the darkness. I had a really big shift. I had cut my hair because I didn't want to do this cutesy pinup girl thing that I had done previously I wanted to really experiment with different sounds I just wanted to go into a different zone as an artist which I am first and foremost and so I was like well how do I do that well I'm going to change the look I'm going to cut everything I'm going to go people that were used to being fed a certain thing they were they got fed a different thing and they're like oh that's different right i like it kind of i mean like when i go to a restaurant and i like my favorite dish like don't change any ingredients keep it right on the menu i want this thing every time but you're also a human being and then you have talked to me about how you are a creative yeah so it's like would i do want to lightly try something different and then people are like uh-uh you're like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but how do you deal with that well it's my life and that I'm gonna live it now I've come to I'm almost 40 and this is my life I've realized I'm gonna live it

41:57I appreciate you like talking also about you talking about how like you came from your childhood fighting you got to where you are you went through what is so normal and natural in your 20s figuring out your romantic relationships figuring out your partners half of the reason we choose certain partners is because of what we're dealing with on the inside with our own selves we're trying to resolve yes that's why we're attracted to that and then you're no longer attracted to narcissists no you're like i'm actually not into the narcissist not really not really um you find orlando what initially drew you to him his adventure spirit he's got a free spirit he's super healthy and he wants me to be healthy sometimes that can be annoying but um it's all for the good he shows up he is loyal he's a capricorn he's not scared i don't know i don't know if this capricorn trait is for everyone but what i've noticed and what he resonates with is that like he can get his hands dirty you know he's he he loves the elements um he's spontaneous um and he checks a lot of boxes and not everyone's gonna not one person's gonna check all the boxes you know what i'm saying was it an initial spark or was it a slow burn um it's been it's been different layers the more we do the work the more we find the next level yeah you know and sometimes we get stuck and we're like okay well let's go into do the work and this is gonna be annoying and I don't want to do it and we don't have the time and I'm tired but we're gonna do it but we're gonna do it and then we find the next level and that's that's why we're continuing in the relationship I know you guys broke up for almost a year at one point what led to that decision um it was really interesting I mean we met over an in and out burger mostly at the golden globes he stole one off of my table and i was like excuse me and then like his hand went and grabbed one i was like okay you can have one you're gonna have one orlando bloom hello hey um and we had met before then but it really locked then i actually had like i'd done a little spell before i went that night i would like war i had wore pink rose quartz i had wrote written down the things i was looking for in a partner under full moon burn it up let it go into the ash you know spread it everywhere cleanse my crystals um but um so and and and and it came but it wasn't and we and we and we manifested it and then what was the question i was how did you guys decide to break up oh we so what happened was we weren't we weren't like like really in it from day one i mean he was in a way because he had just done a huge time of celibacy and he had set intentions and I was fresh out of a relationship and I was just like I can't do this anymore I need to go into a swim in a different pond but I had yet to do a lot of like some real work he went to this place called the Hoffman process which is a place a retreat you go to for a week and it you rewire the way you think about yourself and it helps you rewire all the bad habits and the rewires your neural pathways through different physical activities.

45:16So there's no like medicine or plant medicine. It's literally just like scientists and therapists that have put together programming that help you quiet that imposter syndrome and also find that new kind of awaken yourself and find that mode, you know, that reborn mode. So he went there and then he came back and he wasn't like playing this cat mouse game anymore with me and I was like, this is boring. I'm moving on. Cause I'm so used, I was so used to this like push pull. Cause I was like, once you have it, then you're like, I was playing games. It's addicting. Yeah. I was playing games cause it was, it was a dopamine hit.

45:54Right. And it's what I knew and things like that. So, um, I had a really tough year and I finally went to Hoffman at towards the end of that year that we were separated. And then I got the tools and spoke the same language. Um, And it changed my life. It saved my life. I would be dead without it. I would not be on this planet without that process. Why do you think that? And meditation. Because the noise got so large. When witness came out and things started to shift and I thought I really loved myself and I thought I really had that center, but actually that core was all created from outside validation.

46:29Everything started changing. And then I went to this process and like it changed my life. It just helped me rewire how I think about myself. And it helped me connect my head to my heart. That's like even what this album is about, 143. It's coming out September 20th. And that means I love you. And that's my angel number. I don't know if anyone ever knows what that is or you needed an affirmation or a sign or a symbol from somewhere else to know that you're on the right path or whatever. We were going through a really challenging medical situation that was causing me a lot of anxiety and then I started seeing 143 everywhere and it's like on a receipt in a parking spot random random random like crazy not even on your phone because I get it we see 11 11 a lot right you know we do and I looked it up and it's just it's the digital I love you from back in the day you know and I and I just was like oh this is just my angel self saying I got you I want the best for you I love you communicate with me commune with me commune with me you sitting here saying like if I had not gone away to this program I don't think I would be here I would not if you could say something to that woman that was in that spot what would you say to yourself right now I wasn't in my right mind so I don't know if I could and there's a lot of people that are that do have um some moments where they're either extremely depressed or extremely anxious and they're not really in that balanced right mind so they're like I don't even know what to do yeah um the first thing i i did 15 years ago was actually the best thing i did which is learn a tool like meditation having access to meditation everyone has their own thing that works for them to get them through tough times yoga dance get into your body out of your mind did you and orlando talk while you guys were like kind of not broken up or no ish kind of he was boundaried who initiated getting back together i was doing a show that was close to where um he was on vacation and i was like i'll pop over but i had promised that i was gonna do the hoppin process but i literally was in a bad state and i like needed his i needed his he's got you know we all have our strengths and then our opportunities for growth but one of his strengths are when i crumble he can step in and be that anchor because I'm usually just alpha alpha you know I'm like testosterone testosterone like this I got this I don't need any help but actually I do need help I do need a partner and um

49:09I went on a um a guided journey the other day

49:21and for as strong as i am i was like no i do need i do need i do have needs and i do need help sometimes so it was it was a beautiful revelation it was the one thing i got and i did that like last week like i can be so strong but yeah like everybody needs help being a mom yeah how has it changed your life everything it was it was the view I was looking for I mean I appreciate and enjoy and I probably again would not know that that was the view I was looking for unless I climbed other mountains you know I literally got the opportunity to climb Mount Everest and I planted my fucking flag in Everest not actually not literally but like Teenage Dream is that massive mountain and I had it and I did it and then I tried to climb other mountains and I loved those views but like then I was like wow god there's got to be something else and I had my child and it was like oh this is all the love I was ever looking for and there's a song on um the album that's called all the love and I wrote it out of that I was like you know I was at a place where I was like, oh, I guess I'll be okay with not feeling that intense love or not.

50:37I mean, I have an intense love with Orlando. It's a beautiful love, but I feel like a soulmate can come in any form. It could come, you know, you could be soulmates with your mother. You could be soulmates with your sister. You could be soulmates, you know, with your daughter or your son or your dog. Even that, you know, people like before they have kids and they have a dog, they're like how am I gonna love anything more than I love this dog sweetheart wait for it it just it shifts it changes I mean when she came into my life and she is a true king she is a real king she's very strong-willed very outspoken beautiful and such an empath she's very heart centered I mean on the playground at the beach when we were in London there was a girl that fell and literally she gave her lollipop to her and I was like you love lollipops you gave her you gave her lollipop away to her and it just made her so it made the little girl that fell feel so good and so Daisy is such a kind empath and cares and worries about the world and she's got a great intuition as well she's my gift I think for doing all that work too we intentionally brought her into this world.

51:53We knew we wanted to have a child. We knew we were going to, okay, let's do it. Let's do it as a celebration of all the work that we've done together and create this being. And so she's the gift. She is exactly what I get for doing that. And I'm continuing to do the work. And so there is no there there, but it, you know, if you get the opportunity, it seems like it's like the biggest cliche in the world is to procreate, but it's the reason why people still do it and they've done it it's everything so i feel like i'm i'm operating from such a more whole place you know the biggest lie that artists are ever told is that we have to stay broken to create so true because if we go to therapy it's going to change me it's going to turn me into a different person that is a lie from the pits of hell you'll become a different person you will evolve a better person a more centered person yeah and so from for the first part of my life into my I would say my 30s I was operating on you know just pain gas and then the car lit on fire and I was like I gotta get out of here or else I'm gonna get devoured and now it's a totally different it's like it's electric now I'm so happy for you because you can I like see the way that you're lighting up when you're speaking about her and it's like so inspiring and I'm so happy for you that that woman in 2017 like pushed through and did the work and found herself and like got the help you needed and found the way to get to where you are now because you have created this beautiful life outside of yourself and it's the sanctuary and it's beautiful and I'm so grateful for it because I didn't have it and I know what it I know what it feels like to be all career all that yeah and to not have it and to be like coming home at the end of the night literally like so lonely so sad and everybody in the world thinks you're just like yes honey kill slay boots the house down you're like I'm so sad I don't know anyone to celebrate you know nobody sees nobody sees me and then now to have like this foundation this core like I take my daughter to school on a bicycle yeah I like we go to preschool sometimes on a bicycle and I'm just like I'm literally that Leonardo DiCaprio meme where I'm sitting outside with my face in the sun just going like I'm like a Labrador dog just like yes this is living I've never felt so free as I do on a bicycle with the beach and my hometown and all happiness fine happiness 143 I always wanted to make a record like this there's a lot of um kind of dance pop rhythmic i would say um because when i go out into the world i want to dance with everyone what is your favorite song on the album if you had to choose that's the worst question i know but if you had to choose for the daddy gang to go listen to one thing when this comes out what are we listening to i guess i would say all the love because it also encompasses this conversation and the journey of like me looking for a love me finding the love yeah me you know having the love inside me all along and tapping into that with me having a child there is poetry in every moment everything is new again it's like I get to relive life through her eyes I will also say what I really like about 143 is I feel like you have this like great range like when I was listening to gorgeous and like love competitors and I I'm yeah I just feel like you have such great range where like that's what I'm listening to and I'm like getting ready to go out with the girls like there's just it's great I really wanted to make a record that was celebratory full of love light joy hope and and BPM because get out of your head get into your body get into your heart dance sweat out those toxins feel yourself like embrace your sexuality like find your feminine divine all of that I do want to ask you about one collaborator in particular I know a lot of people have expressed disappointment and were really upset that you decided to involve Dr.

56:09Luke on this album why did you choose to work with him look I I understand that it started a lot of conversations and he was one of many collaborators that I collaborated with. But the reality is it comes from me. The truth is I wrote these songs from my experience of my whole life going through this metamorphosis. And he was one of the people to help facilitate all that. One of the writers, one of the producers. And I am speaking from my own experience. Like when I speak from, when I speak about woman's world, I speak about feeling so empowered now as a mother as a woman giving birth creating life creating another set of organs a brain a heart I created a whole ass heart and I did it and I'm still doing it and I'm still a matriarch and feeling really grounded in that that's where I'm speaking from yeah and so I created all of this with several different collaborators people that I've collaborated with from the past, from teenage dream era, all of that.

57:14In working with the same collaborators throughout your career, how do you think you've evolved as an artist? I feel like I've always been authentic in, in, you know, trying, uh, different genres, investigating different, uh, sounds. I, I don't think I've ever been inauthentic. I don't think I've like went for a trend or anything. I just do what makes me happy and that I resonate with and that gives me those chill bumps. Um, and even more so now, like, I don't feel like I have to make music. I don't feel like I have to prove anything. I'm doing it now from a place of celebration and love. I cannot thank you enough for coming on.

57:59Thank you. I wish the best for you. I hope the best, not wish, I hope the best for you. Um, I know you're on an incredible journey you're a young lady that is got a lot of attention and a lot of new success and just remember your compass stay true keep your friends I've had the same I've had some of the same friends for 20 years yeah same for you know and just keep those people around the people that tell you no you keep them closer you say why yeah and maybe no like okay maybe not but like just keep them closer and just you know get those tools go investigate meditation like there is a reason why it's been around forever because it works be connected to divine thank you thank you thank you we did it we did it

59:03Thank you.