Kerry Washington: Power, Perfection & Olivia Pope

29:15Do you? I go back and forth because I think a part of her was so, of course she could be. Like if she wanted to be, she could have been. But there was a part of her that just loved her wine, her popcorn, hanging out. And she liked being behind the scenes in moments. And so would she really want the fiasco that comes with? I don't know. I think she's more of a behind the scenes person. I do. And to clarify, like I would have voted for her. Oh, definitely. I would have. There's no better option. Absolutely. Her mental health for her today. I would vote for her. Ten toes down. Just ready to go. Banking, knocking on doors.

29:57I'd be doing it all. I'd be ready. I'd be ready. OK, are there any scandal reboot or movie conversations in the works? There aren't. Although this joke about Chase Infinity and Tariq being our children, this is like the joke that will not die and I love it so much um they actually do like she has my smile and Tariq has his smile it's so absurd it is kind of weird um so we actually just started a family text thread dad Tariq texted me yesterday and was like Chase I don't I know you don't have Carrie's number but now it's so I was like do I bring Tony into this text thread it's hilarious yeah we can all pray yeah

30:44call her daddy is brought to you by airbnb so sports are usually math's territory but when it comes to soccer you guys know you know what i'm all over it so safe to say i am very excited for the fifa world cup coming to la the last time i went to a global sporting event was during the Olympics. And honestly, the trip became so much more than just going to different games in Paris. I just remember Matt and I ended up booking the cutest apartment one weekend on Airbnb to explore different parts of France. One night after dinner, instead of I remember rushing home, we stopped into this tiny little local bar, ended up sitting next to a couple from, I think they were from Madrid.

31:25And we just started talking and somehow found out that they also worked together and they had golden doodles. And we were like, oh my God, this is meant to be. And then when Matt and I got back to the apartment that night, we opened a bottle of wine, sat on the balcony, talking for hours about all of the random moments that somehow end up becoming the best part of traveling. It was one of those trips where you come home and you just feel like you actually lived in a space instead of just visiting it. And that is what I love so much about Airbnb during the FIFA World Cup. People from all corners of the world come together.

31:58They're swapping jerseys, grabbing drinks after the match, maybe debating who actually has the best goalie, like whatever it is. And Airbnb makes it easy to stay together under one roof. You get to live in neighborhoods that actually feel local and experience a city beyond just the tourist spots. Airbnb, the world is meant to meet. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest. Nobody really explains how your money is supposed to work for you, right? You just put it into a savings account and assume that's enough, right? But daddy gang, the average bank savings rate is 0.39 % in interest, which basically means you're only earning pennies on your savings when it could be doing so much more.

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34:28Check it out at T-Mobile.com slash magenta status. Disclaimer, streaming benefits included while you maintain a qualifying experience beyond plan line. One of the most impactful moments on Scandal was when Olivia Pope had an abortion. And when I interviewed Shonda, she told me that the network pushed back on that storyline and she really had to fight to keep it in. We didn't know if we were going to air that night, like down to the wire. I was like, what are they going to do? Are they going to like show reruns? Are they like running? Because they were locked in the disagreement about what it could and could not be.

35:06So you literally sat there and waited to see if it aired. Yeah. What did it feel like for you to be at the center of that moment publicly and privately with the network and everything? I was so proud. I was so proud of Shonda. I was so proud of our whole cast. I was so proud to have shot that scene. There had been characters on television who had had abortions, but it was the first time that you got to watch a woman actually in the procedure. And obviously, there was nothing graphic about the scene, but it was about her inner life and her emotional reality in that process. And I just, as somebody who had had an abortion and as somebody who has fought for reproductive rights my whole life, it feels like, I was so, so proud.

35:51I know. I was going to say in your memoir, you open up about your abortion in your late 20s, and so many people connected to you. But going back to that moment, like what emotions did you feel not only writing about your experience, but then also releasing it to the world? Okay. So first I want to say that I watch a lot of clips of the show, like a lot of people, like I catch parts of the episode that I love the most that I watched beginning to end was your trip to North Carolina. And you say in that episode, if there's one episode you're going to watch. It should be this one. So I just want everybody who's listening, if you have not watched the North Carolina episode, pause this one.

36:35We're not going to go anywhere. We will be here. Pause this episode. Go listen to and watch the North Carolina episode where you are so brave and that work you do is so important in that episode. And then you can come back and we'll be here. We'll link it right below. Go ahead. Yeah. We'll be right here. So welcome back. Thank you. Now we're here. You're educated. Perfect. Let's go. You see what a badass she is. um so okay i when i was writing my memoir i did that thing that people tell you to do of like just write everything and then you can decide later what's really going to go in because if i wrote the book thinking about people reading it i i would have written one word like there would not have gotten past the first page so i did a lot of writing of just like vomiting on the page of experiences and i remember the morning that i was like i'm going to write about this thing and i wrote about my abortion experience and i was like that's never going to be in the book And I like put it in the file of things that will not be in the book.

37:27And then when I handed in my book to my editor, there was a line later in the book about my abortions and miscarriages. And she was like, hey, like circled it. Can we get more context here? Like you just drop this in the book, but you don't share about your miscarriages or abortions. And I was like, oh, God. And I had to like file through my computer to try to find it. and then having some distance from it, rereading it, I thought, I want to share this. I do want to share this because a lot of what my abortion story is about is my personal loss of privacy. And it is our right to privacy that has been taken away from us.

38:07That is how Roe v. Wade got reversed. And I just think I'm not a bad person because I've had an abortion. And you get to disagree with anybody gets to disagree with me. Absolutely. You don't think I did the right thing with my body. You are allowed to believe that. I don't love the judgment, but I make room for it because everybody is who they are. What you can't do, what I don't want you to do, what I'm going to fight till the day I die to make sure you can't do is to make decisions about what I do with my body. Your opinion is yours, but my body, my bodily autonomy, my ability to decide how and when I start a family, that needs to be mine.

38:44Yes. It's so sad because it sounds so simple. It sounds so simple. And obviously it's not for you, Carrie. Like you felt like you said, ready to tell it. But were you nervous at all about the reaction? I was. I don't know if my parents even knew at that point that I'd had an abortion. My husband knew, but I don't I know there were friends and family members who didn't know. So I was nervous, but I also felt like, I mean, I'm just, what's the point? And at this point, I was writing this book, like really revealing myself. I talked about my eating disorder. I talked about my genetic background. I talked about sexual abuse.

39:25I mean, I was like, why would I hold this back? Right? Like, what am I, what would I be protecting and holding this back? And I think there's our reproductive lives are so shrouded in secrecy. We don't talk about abortion or miscarriages or adoption or infertility or even our periods or menopause. And I just think we have to take the cloaks off of our reproductive lives. Like our bodies are our bodies. Abortion is healthcare. Infertility treatment is healthcare. Like this is, it doesn't have to be filled with shame. It doesn't. And I think what is so hard though is because it is, and that is the stigma, it does take strong women like yourself who come forward knowing there is going to be backlash, knowing there will be judgment, knowing that there are people in the world that may never look at you the same.

40:10You can lose fans because of this because it is such a definitive line in the sand for some people. So it hurts me to know that it's also at the cost of so many women having to be so strong in the capacity that they shouldn't have to be. You know, I was thinking about it. You shot that scene for Scandal and you had not at that time publicly talked about your abortion yet. Was it triggering at all to film that scene? Hmm. I don't think it was triggering to film it. I do think it was cathartic. It like allowed me to, sometimes in my work as an actor, what I'm doing is, like what looks like truth on screen is often because an actor will try to find the closest truth that I know to what the character is going through and share that through the character's body and through her words.

41:12So what the gift that I got in filming that scene was I got to share my truth through Olivia Pope. I got to say like, this is something that happened to me. This is something that I chose. This is something that I've lived through and I'm not going to hide it anymore. even though I was hiding it. Like on some like deeper emotional level, I was able to say like, I'm gonna step into the truth of this moment and share it with all of you. So you just showed up every day that you were filming that just, yes, keeping it to yourself and just pouring it into the work. Yeah. And at the end of that, it just fully felt cathartic.

41:50There was no - It did, it felt like I had less to hide. That's the healing that often happens through characters is that I feel like, and you must've felt this also doing your documentary that like on the other side of it, which was your real, real, real truth on the other side of it, I just often when a character is really. When I'm lucky, a character lets me share a truth through her. And on the other side of it, I feel a little bit healed. It's beautiful. Yeah, I am. I know that you also wrote, which I think is so important to point out, because to women who are listening to this, this is probably a very, very relatable feeling of the shame and embarrassment that you were feeling leading up to the procedure and the loneliness, right?

42:33If you could go back, what kind of empathy or just kindness do you wish you could have shown yourself? It took me a long time to forgive myself, not for having the abortion. I really knew that that was the right choice for me, but it took me a long time to forgive myself for getting pregnant. And I learned a lot about myself, about, I learned a lot about what was going on for me mentally and emotionally that I allowed that to happen. And it really invited me to figure out how to stand up for myself and my boundaries more, how to be more honest with myself in the moment and how to stay in my body.

43:30Like I have a lifetime of disembodiment of like based on sexual abuse, based on all kinds of stuff, like of leaving my body. And I feel like so much of my life and my work as an actor has been about trying to figure out how to be back in my body and live and stay present in my body and that experience was really like a line in the sand for me of like this is the situation I have found myself in because I I do not know how to stay in my body and in my truth I mean that's so even even hearing you say that Carrie it's so one yes like hard but also two I can't help but be like yes but it does take two and so I can't help but be like oh but give yourself even more grace than that.

44:18But I'm hearing what you're saying also, which I think is one of the most terrifying and scary and unsaid things that women go through, which is why didn't I like advocate for myself? Why didn't I say no? Why wasn't I more clear? Why wasn't I? And how did I get lost in the moment? Like I was at that point, I had been a sex educator for decades for over a decade because I started doing that work, sex education work when I was like 13. So I was like, I knew better. Like, how am I getting swept up? Like, what is going on? But it was like people pleasing, perfectionism, disembodiment, all of that.

44:59And I think it's so much easier. We can read something on a paper. We can ingest it in a lecture. But when you are in a moment and you are living it, and that is why, unfortunately, really mainly primarily only women will be able to relate to this. When people are like, well, why don't you just say no? It's like when you are in that moment and there is so much going on in your brain and not going on in your body because you're disassociating and you're like removing yourself. It is close to impossible. It's very hard. To be able to create a strong boundary because a lot of the times it is easier to just go with what is happening, whether it's for safety or whatever it be.

45:39So you writing about that, I think, was just so powerful because it also is like there is kind of not an immediate answer in those moments. It's just giving yourself grace of like you felt guilt after that of you took primarily the responsibility of getting pregnant. And then what was the process of undoing that guilt for yourself? I think the thing you talked about around like learning how to not disassociate with a lot of therapy, a lot of work, a lot of introspection. But it's been a journey for me of staying in my body, like the healing around the eating disorder, all the work around like how do I stay in my body so that I can make choices that are right for me?

46:24I guess the choice to have an abortion, I was so clear. I was like, I am in this moment. I am in I'm now in my body. I'm in the truth of what's happening in my body. And I need to make a very clear decision. And I knew it was right for me. And I was like, I want to be in this state more often, if not all the time. Right. I want to I want to be with myself. Wow. And I remember when you wrote, I know legally clinics have to ask the questions to make sure that this is the right choice for you. Yeah. And in your book, you describe this as having to essentially defend your choice for an abortion. how did it feel in that moment to have to justify yourself to get yourself to that point feeling confident in yourself knowing this is what the right this is and is for your body and then someone looking at you being like let's walk through are you sure yeah how did that feel I think it contributed to the guilt because I wasn't I was at a place and I was at an age where I could have chosen to have a child I was in a relationship where I could have chosen to have a child.

47:29There were lots of factors that it wasn't a life or death situation for me. It wasn't the case of rape or incest. So I could have made that choice. I just knew it wasn't the right choice for me. And that feels really specific and it leaves room for a lot of people to disagree. It can seem selfish. It can seem a lot of things. But you get this one life and I knew that this was the right choice for me. What do you wish more people understood about the realities women face when it comes to abortion? I think that it's not an easy decision, that by the time a woman makes the decision to have an abortion, it's never an easy decision.

48:16And so I think we need to give people grace around making the choices that are right for us in our life. But I think also one of the things I loved about your episode was when you challenged that guy around like, well, shouldn't young men just get vasectomies? And then like, when they're ready to have babies, we can reconnect them. And I think that all of the onus gets put on women. It's just so unfair. It's so unfair. And the minute that I tried to engage him in the conversation and include them, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's like, But what laws... But you're legislating my reproductive organs.

48:54So why can't I legislate yours? Why are there no laws around men's bodies? And it's like, well, hold on. And you're like... And so I agree. It's like, I think where we're at right now is it feels impossible finding a way to bring people to the table to have a conversation because we're sitting here right now and there are women that don't have the same right that you did in the moment. My daughters don't have as many rights as I did at their age. Neither one of them. That's a travesty to me. And, you know, if this was really about saving lives, then we would do a better job taking care of the children that exist in the world right now.

49:37Like if everybody who believes that abortion should be illegal was also like really ready to come forward with supporting education and healthcare and resources for families to be able to thrive. We could maybe understand this conversation a little bit more, but it doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like it's about caring for a child. It feels like it's about control of a woman and maybe control of children too. So I think actually the real answer to your question is like, we don't have to be silent about this. I know that we are in a moment where we have fewer rights than we ever have had when it comes to our bodies, but we still have a lot of rights.

50:20We have the right to free speech. We have the right to be able to protest. We have the right to vote. And we have to take advantage of the rights that we have to try to grow some of the ones that we've lost. That hopefully is what people can understand. We're saying it's like, if it is not the right choice for you, then you absolutely, that's fine. That's the beauty of living in a free country, a democracy. You get to like make choices for yourself. So let's make sure that is applicable to every single woman on this earth. Thank you for talking with me about that because I just think there's so many women that listen to this and it is important topic, especially right now.

50:57I want to pivot to your family. Yeah. because you best part of me yes and something that you know you referenced earlier and you mentioned in your memoir um a few years ago you revealed that your dad was not your biological father because your parents used a sperm donor just take me to that moment of like how did they break the news to you and what was that conversation like carrie so when scandal ended I bumped into Henry Louis Gates, who is an incredible professor who has this television show called Finding Your Roots. And we've been friends for a long time. And I'd always wanted to do Finding Your Roots, but I never had time because of Scandal.

51:40And he was like, I read that it's going to be Scandal's last season. I said, yeah. He said, will you come do the show? And I was like, absolutely. Like, this is my moment. My mom is so interested in genealogical stuff with our family. And I know my dad will be into this. This will be so great. So I call up my parents And I'm like, I bumped into Skip Gates. I'm going to do Finding Your Roots. We're going to learn everything we can possibly learn about our family. And my dad started having panic attacks. And I couldn't figure it out. My mom was like, that's great. I was like, okay, well, she's always a little, you know, like.

52:10She's a little skeptical. My mom is not the most emotionally expressive person. That's how I'll say it. So I was like, all right, well, I think it's great. And maybe she thinks it's great too. And we'll get there. My dad was not happy. And I was like, what are you afraid of? Like you're worried that you're going to find out like your great grandmother was like, I don't know, like had a brothel or like what could possibly be the issue? So I offered my parents because Skip Gates is closer to their age generationally. And so I was like, do you want to talk to Professor Gates and like maybe he can help calm you guys down?

52:43And so basically this Harvard professor knew about my genetics before I did because my parents were like, what if hypothetically speaking, she happened to be born from a sperm bone? Would that come up? And he was like, definitely it would. And you need to tell her. And they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And he was like, thank God he said to them that in all of his years of doing the show, when this kind of thing has come up, that people's greatest regret is not being able to know when everybody's still alive. Because you don't get to deal with it and move through it and get closer in the truth of it.

53:25So I got this text from my mom that my parents wanted to talk, which never happens. I was like, I mean, it has happened once or twice, like when my mother first told me she had cancer or when my dad was in trouble with the law. Like I was like, this is not good news. And I went to the apartment, their apartment in L.A. And and they like fumbled through sharing this news with me. And I remember it like it was like, I don't know, it was like that scene in Alice in Wonderland where she's like free falling through the characters and the props. I just was like, what is happening? Nothing felt solid.

54:00I felt kind of dizzy. I was like, is this like a weird prank? Like I just, I could, I was so confused. And also at the exact same time, I felt like, yes, this is it. Like this is the, this is the puzzle piece that I've been trying to solve for my entire life. This is why I've, this is part of why I've had such a hard time being in my body and staying in my body. It's because my body has been a lie to me from the moment I came to this planet. Like from the moment I was born, the two people who love me the most have lied to me about who I am and about where this body comes from. And so I had an opportunity to make peace with my body for the first time and with the truth of who I am and like how I'm here.

54:49I mean, it was really cool. I was going to say like incredible and so disorienting. Like 40 years of your life, you believe your father is your biological blood father. They tell you this. Like, how did you even begin as a human being to process something like that? My first concern, my first concern was my dad. Because I remember looking at him and he was devastated. Like I could tell he felt like he lost me. and so it took me a while to actually even figure out how I was feeling about it because I realized very quickly that my parents needed my help in this moment that they were courageously stepping into the scariest thing they had ever done and that they thought that they were gonna explode our family that they were gonna destroy us as a family because I'm an only child so it's just the three of us and so I really the my first concern was like to sit next to my dad and to look at him and to say, I just want you to know that I love you and that every day that I've said I love you up until now, for you, it's been on the condition of a lie because you think I love you because I think you're my dad.

56:13I said, today you get to know that I love you unconditionally because I know you're not my biological father and I still love you. that's it oh my god it was really powerful i can't imagine the Relief. But also, did you ever get to talk about like, did they do this out of did they say because they thought they were protecting you? Yes. Yeah. I mean, at the time, nobody knew 40 plus years ago that there was going to be a 23andMe or an Ancestry.com. Like that was like science fiction. I was like the Jetsons. Like what do you like? What? So so it was really I think they were really protecting me.

56:54They were trying to make me not feel othered, not feel different, not feel weird. Like it wasn't like today. You and I have friends who like go to a sperm bank and look through a binder and like choose what degree the person has and like what color eyes the donor will have. But this was like the Wild West. My mother was like, got a phone call. Like we have it. It's warm. Come to the office. Like she had no idea who the person was. My parents just said like, please let him be healthy and let him be black because they didn't want anybody to know. So they wanted to keep it a secret. So it just I think it was so, again, shrouded in secrecy and shame.

57:26and also my dad's shame about not being able to provide. I think it was about protecting him and protecting me. And so much emotions all around. Although not the same, this makes me think about your new show, Imperfect Women, which touches on secrets and how they impact relationships, right? Yeah. How did you use what you went through in your life to inform this character that you just went on to play? It's such a good question. you're so good at this. I'm having the time of my life. No surprise. Surprises to no one. So I think one of the biggest things that shocked me when I went on book tour was that every single person at every book signing, when they were taking a picture with me, was like, my family has a secret.

58:12They were sharing their family. And I started realizing like, oh, every family has a secret. We all have them. All of us. It's part of what defines us, right? It's like the moment that we reveal our truth and how our family deals with it is a big part of what defines who we are and who our family is. So I have really gravitated toward, I mean, actually, even before knowing, like Reese Witherspoon sent me Little Fires Everywhere before my parents told me. And in Little Fires Everywhere, I play a woman who volunteers to be a surrogate and then does not tell my daughter who her father is. Like, it is so absurd that this was the project that Reese sent to me when i sent my mom the book my mother was like oh wait like in hindsight i like i watch my life now like the way you watch one of those movies where you're like oh there were all these easter eggs but i didn't know they were easter eggs in the moment i complete i watched that show i love that show i completely forgot is that crazy it's so wild your mom like freaking out when you send her this script she's like so gorgeous this is so great totally so but also So it was such a blessing because by the time we were filming that show, I did know.

59:22And then I actually got to step into my parents' shoes because I had this beautiful young actress, Lexi Underwood, saying, like, tell me who my father is. And me through tears saying, I can't. I can't. Like, I had to really, really step into, in a very compassionate way, understanding my parents' fear and why they couldn't tell me. So that was such a gift. You found this out while you were filming? In the process of developing that show. I'd already signed on to it. And then they told me that I went to go make it, which is insane. Oh, you're like, this role is meant for me. Yeah, I'm in. Isn't that crazy?

59:59Oh, wow. So then when we were doing, in developing Imperfect Women, I realized like this is something that I, a theme that I return to again and again, the kind of presentation of self versus who we really are. Because for so much of my life, even when I didn't know that I was born from a donor, I knew that something was up. Like I knew that there was something, some weird missing puzzle piece in my family. I didn't know what I didn't know, but I knew we weren't real with each other. I knew that we were not 100 % transparent. I talk about in the book is like a veil. There was like a veil between my parents and I.

1:00:32You want to keep a secret, you tell my mother and father because my mother has four sisters, none of them knew. Her mother, like no one knew, not a single soul. So also it was so freeing for her to be like, I don't have to keep this secret anymore. Yeah. Oh, wow. But so for Imperfect Women, I really gravitated toward this project because I was like, this is a series about women who keep secrets from each other even though they love each other so, so much. It's three friends who adore each other and they want to be in their truth. But because we have this pressure in society and culture to be perfect, they keep things from each other, really important things from each other.

1:01:14And it's like why I love when shows like this explore that concept is because the word secret understandably has such a negative connotation. But it is so refreshing. Even when we're talking about what happened with you with your parents. It's like when you explore the why, there's so much underneath a lot of secrets that a lot of it comes from the person genuinely thinking they're protecting the people that they love. and really it's like most of the time the truth is always the answer but but we can empathize with the people that keep the secrets when you actually get underneath the why of why they genuinely thought it's terrifying it's terrifying i think in the end we're all afraid that we're not going to be loved that we're not going to be accepted that we're not going to belong to the people that we love the most if we let them know who we really are and so i think watching people grapple with that and be willing to unpack that is so captivating because it's terrifying for all of us.

1:02:13It is. And it's so universal, just like the fear of rejection. Yeah. You referenced earlier how you have struggled with an eating disorder. And this doesn't always look the way we expect it to, right? How did you recognize and come to terms with the fact that you were struggling? So I want to say, I want to share with you because I'm super proud of it. I invested in a company called Equip, which is this incredible online community for healing recovery from eating disorders. and why I believe so strongly in this work is because I've, you know, as a person of privilege, I've been able to have group therapy and individual therapy and nutritionists and physical trainers and doctors.

1:02:58Like I've had access to incredible healthcare throughout my life. And this platform, Equip, is like the democratization of that kind of healthcare. They create a team of healthcare support around every single person so that the healing, because eating disorders are such a multidimensional illness. It's psychological, it's biological, it's cultural. And so you need your team of support to reflect that kind of care. And so they do this online with people all over the country. And they take insurance and it's unbelievable. So yeah, so I'm very proud of that work. And for me, I think especially it's important because a lot of people of color go undiagnosed.

1:03:34People who live on the margins go undiagnosed. So people who are in the queer community, women of color, men of color, it just we I think in general, we tend to downplay how dangerous eating disorders are, even though they are fatal. So many people die every year from eating disorders. So I think for me, I recognized it because I knew that I was in a real mental health crisis. Like the thing that actually got me to get help with my eating disorder wasn't the food itself, wasn't the behavior with the food. It was the suicidal ideation. I was like, I'm using food as an exercise as a tool to not be here.

1:04:20Like I'm trying to escape life and I need to figure out how to be in life because I don't I was terrified that I was being so mean to myself. right that i was in so much pain that it was like inflicting more pain was the only way out of my pain and it's so hard to recognize when you're in it like i think it and it's also sometimes and i know i've spoken to women before on my show where they say like it's sometimes easier to stay in it yeah because dismantling all like you said this is not just like and then just you stop doing it's like you have to go through the psychological you needed to get into the body and like i like to say And this is not to diminish the power of any addiction, but there are some addictions where the work is like you have to put it down and you stop.

1:05:10And one of the things that's tricky about an eating disorder is I have to take this tiger out of a cage and pet it like a house cat three times a day, right? That is one of the interesting dynamics is that you can't just say I'm not going to eat. That's actually another extension of an eating disorder. So you have to be in relationship with this thing that is so challenging to engage with. I remember reading that quote of yours, and it was so helpful to read that because I agree it puts it into perspective that this feeling and this, whether it's disorder or addiction or whatever you want to call it, Like it's ever present.

1:05:52You can't survive without eating. And so I agree. It's like every addiction is horrible. But this one specifically, there is such a complexity to it. It's similar to like the money addictions or the sex addictions where like you can't just give it up. Yes. But you got to figure out how to do it in a way that doesn't ruin your life and the lives of the people you love the most. Yes. What was your healing process like? I mean, it was the first it was the first thing that got me on my knees ever. Like the first time I ever prayed was to get out of this insanity where I was like the only thing, like my entire life revolved around what I was eating or not eating, how many calories I was burning.

1:06:29I was, I was, when I was in college, it was the worst, the worst, the worst. That's when I first went into treatment. And I, it was the first time I got on my knees to be like, I need help. And so it was for me, it was group therapy. It was individual therapy. It was the first time I ever went to see a shrink and have therapy and talk about my feelings. It was working with a nutritionist. It was all of that stuff. Yeah. I think something that can be really hard is like when you are genuinely so concerned about someone, it can come off like you are criticizing or you're commenting on their body when you're trying to help them.

1:07:05Do you have any advice for people listening on like how to navigate that type of conversation if you are a friend or a family member concerned? I had the opposite where I went to a couple people to say, I think I need help with this. And people were like, it's fine. Everybody eats when they're upset. They kind of refused to see how serious it was because they didn't want that to be true for me. And I think sometimes people do that because they don't want to look at their own behavior with food. So they're like, it's fine, whatever. We don't have to talk about it. So it's also just listening to the people around you.

1:07:38I think if you're the one struggling, it's trusting your gut. If you know you need help, don't let anybody tell you that it's not a big deal. And as a parent, if you know your child needs help also, because I mean, even a lot of pediatricians struggle to diagnose eating disorders. There's a lot of education that needs to happen in the medical community where still people in medical schools are being taught that eating disorders are things that happen to like white, wealthy people in suburbs. There's all this weird misinformation around who has them and even what are eating disorders, what are the different eating disorders.

1:08:10So I think like if you're a parent trusting your gut and getting help for your young ones and if you're struggling, don't minimize it. Like it might be an eating disorder. It might be disordered eating. It could be a whole spectrum of things. But if you need help, ask for help. Like you don't need to suffer alone. You don't need to live in pain. You don't need to engage in activity that takes you out of life. as someone who is in the public eye, sadly, that does come with scrutiny over your looks and your body. How does that constant commentary affect you? I keep thinking, like a lot of times when you're asking me questions, I'm like, I love the title of our show, Imperfect Women, because I'm like, so much of the journey is about being like, I'm not perfect.

1:08:58We're all imperfect. Imperfect is a synonym for human. It's just like that, That is that's who I am. So I think I'm in a place in my life now where I understand it's I mean, people are going to have their opinions. I'm just doing the best I can. And I have pretty high standards. So like I'm reaching for gold in my version of me. And if it's not good enough for you, then that's your issue to deal with. Like, yeah, it's a great point. And I also think I had somewhat of a conversation similar to this with Michelle Obama, where we talked about how the internet can - I mean, Queen Michelle Obama, yes.

1:09:38Queen. Still said to pause to be like - No, no, no. I know. Okay. I'm still not over it. Yes. Okay. The internet is so ruthless when it comes to body shaming and criticizing women. Yeah. But the sad reality is a majority of the time it is coming from other women. what do you think is behind that

1:10:05we're not taught to love ourselves it's not like a core value and it needs to be and so I think a lot of times we reach for criticism of ourselves and others because we just don't know how to choose to be more loving we don't know how it's so true and I think like when women go at other women there's almost this projection that's happening whether it's someone that's triggering something in you um whether you're seeing something that you wish you could be doing or you you resonate with it shakes your idea of what's acceptable yes and i think like what i want to work on and i'm i think when michelle talked about that i was hoping like also my audience can work on is like really pausing in those moments where you do have a negative feeling towards another woman and really trying to dissect like why is this happening because where is this coming because we're only going to continue to perpetuate it and the the only way we're going to dismantle the patriarchy of all the men are just laughing like they're just like oh my god if anything now they're all so busy tearing each other down like we used to have to do it.

1:11:17Now you're all doing it yourselves. It's like it's worked. So they've worked so long to put us in this position where we are below them and we have to believe we are equal. And so we have to start actually rising directly next to them and looking at ourselves being like, the only way we're going to get there is if we actually shut our mouths the next time that we want to say something negative about another woman. I'm not saying you can't disagree with women. You can't be, you know, say, I think the opposite of you or I actually don't agree with what you are doing. Sure, but maybe the next time you think to do that, you stay silent, at least publicly on that, or DM the person and have a private conversation.

1:11:56I don't know. I just think there's different solves to actually getting underneath how do we stop the war against women when half of the time it feels like we're in it within ourselves. Yeah. I mean, the thing is what you're talking about requires a lot of maturity because there's a certain level of emotional regulation that when I get ramped up about something that I don't just jump to react, but that I pause. Like I feel like such a big part of being an adult, a mature adult is in the pause. Like, am I willing to pause, take a beat, look at my side of the street before I'm reactive? And it's really, I feel like it is at the cornerstone of being able to grapple with a lot of really challenging relationships.

1:12:39I mean, it's really important in parenting. Pausing is really important in parenting. I can't imagine. Because you do you and you get triggered a lot. You get activated a lot by stuff. It's a great point. And I can't help but think like you've been in so many rooms with men and women in this very heightened industry. Do you have any moments where you realized you were kind of being set up to compete with other women? And how has that evolved for you as you have kind of come into more power compared to maybe the beginning days where you didn't have as much of a say? I will never forget this. I think it was Chris Rock who said this to me that the most racist thing that's ever been done to you, you'll never know about because you weren't even in the room.

1:13:29I think it's true in sexism too. Like the most sexist decision that gets made about us, we won't even have access to the moment it got made because it will be in a room that we did not have access to. So that's wild. It's a wild idea to wrap your head around. But I actually think of a moment that's a little bit of the opposite. I referred to this earlier. When the script for Scandal was circulating, everybody was obsessed because we hadn't seen an opportunity for a black actress like this in our lifetimes. And everybody wanted to read for it. Everybody thought they were born to play this character.

1:14:07And God bless Shonda. She was like, if you want to read, I will let you read. Like she saw everybody because she understood the hope that lived in these the pages of this script for so many people. And I remember speaking at a luncheon for Essence magazine after I had gotten the part. So it was a room full of black women. And I don't know how to explain this, but I'm going to try. I felt nothing but love in that room. And I knew that there could have been like I could have been standing in front of that room in front of all those women, many of whom I knew were like down to the way it's like down to me and four other women.

1:14:48All of them were in there. There was no sense of competition. There was no sense of like, it should have been me. There was no sense of how dare she. It was all like, you have to go win this thing. Like we believe in you. You got it. Now you have to go win for us. And that magic, I was like, this is, I know that this is not the norm. I know that this is rarefied air that we're all breathing right now. And I felt so grateful and responsible for them, for all of us, for like standing up, for representing all of us. And by the way, there may have been some of them who went home and were like, that bitch, like I know I could have done that part with my eyes closed.

1:15:35I don't know why she's doing it. Like, I'm not saying those feelings weren't there, but I'm saying like in that room, the energy that they were consciously sending my way was all love. I mean, that though is, I agree. It's like we can. Yes, we can always focus on the negative, but that is such a testament to the. Statement and the reality that has kind of been built out is that there can only be one woman at the top. I know. And although in that moment it was proving true, as you're saying, I am a black woman in this position that for 40 years. It hasn't happened. And so it is on my shoulders right now.

1:16:16but how incredible that you took that and you had all these women standing there being like, we are rooting for you. You have to win. You have to win. And I always say, like, I didn't change history. Like, I was gonna come in and know my lines and make strong choices. I was gonna do my job as an actor no matter what. The person who made history, that was our audiences. Like, audiences all over the world, they tuned in and they made a point. They were able to prove to the network that it wasn't a risk, that it was actually a strong ROI, that we were going to bring the value. So when I think about that moment, I also think all of those women, they were the women who were like retweeting and reposting and joining in on Thursday nights.

1:17:01Because when we were a grassroots, you know, midseason replacement show, it was like black women who were first like, you got to watch this show. You got to watch my girl Carrie. Like that's that energy. So we did all win together. There was only room for one, but it took all of us to break that door open. And then there was room for more of us to go through it. Right. Back to what you said. All of those shows that follow. Yes. At first there was only. And that is, I think, what like ending that conversation. It's like that is such that is what we're talking about. It's actually. Yes. If one if it can only be one woman in the room, we have to believe that she's going to work her ass off and it will allow for the rest of us to also rise.

1:17:43with her and we have to believe that. We just have to. And it's why we can't tear each other apart for our imperfections because when one of us comes forward to say I had an abortion, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. It was a really difficult time in my life, but I made that choice. When we allow her to do that, we allow other people to say, I have a secret too. I have a secret too. I adopted my children and didn't tell anybody. I used a sperm donor. My husband's infertile. I'm infertile. Whatever it is, Like we when we make room for each other's truth also like each other's success, each other's pain.

1:18:18Like we have to support each other as women in our human, imperfect, messy journey so that we can continue to be badass and human and imperfect and messy and awesome. It's so true because then the stigma is gone. Yeah, there's only a stigma because we're making it. That's right. And then the more we keep talking about it, that stigma will be gone. Yeah. And then people won't have to keep these secrets. It's because we can stay in community and just be who we are. Girl, we needed this today. I did.

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1:21:01Okay, relationships. Okay. you have been married for about 13 years. I know. What has your partnership taught you about yourself? Oh, wow. That's such a good question. What has my partner taught me about myself that I'm really, really lucky? I'm like, I must have done something really good in a past life because, I mean, what an extraordinary human. So I'm really lucky. Oh, God, he teaches me stuff all the time. One of the things that I really love about our relationship is that very early on, we started couples therapy. We started couples therapy before anything was wrong. We just started couples therapy kind of preventatively.

1:21:52He was newer to therapy. I feel like I've been in therapy my whole life. But we were like, we should just start having these conversations so that if something does get hard, we already have a culture of knowing how to talk about stuff i'm obsessed with couples therapy it's amazing it's my favorite it's like part logistics meeting part like um party part date in the afternoon like i so look forward to it we start every session with something that the other person did well like something that we appreciate about the other person and like every time i am like this is the best part of my week because so often what's really interesting is so often the thing he shares with me that he appreciated or the thing I share with him it's not something I would have guessed it's like something that to me was small but to him it meant a lot and that's so useful because now I'm like oh I can do that again like I can do that all the time that was nothing to me right like so you really learn how to love each other better in that by starting with something good.

1:22:56I think he's taught me just how to be a better person, a better human. And he's given me the greatest gift, which is his partnership and also to be a mom. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. Something I was thinking about is you have been able to maintain a career. And obviously, you talked about motherhood, right? To anyone listening that's like, girl. You in particular? Yeah. I'm like, girl. Anybody who's thinking about starting a family. Yeah, I'm like to anyone that's maybe thinking about that one day. How? Girl, give me the advice. What do I do? How do you do it? I have girlfriends who I have said like, you should just come over because it's a little bit like you just need to see it.

1:23:39You just need to see it in the wild. Like you just need to be like, oh, like it's chaotic. It's crazy. And it's awesome. Like you just got it. Like you just have to come over. Perfect. Yeah. I'll just watch it. Yes. I'll just watch a TV show. It's like seeing a lion in the wild. You're like, it's real. okay perfect all right well we can do it i would say you're never gonna feel ready or by the time you feel ready then you're like on a clock um i don't know just follow your gut yeah follow your gut i know i feel like that's a lot of what i've read online or like seen people talk about is like there's only so much advice you can give to people and then it's like you got to just throw yourself into it because everyone's made it work somehow yeah that's right like it's gonna be hard that's right but there's also a journey you need to go on for yourself yeah that there's only so much you can read in books or listen to on podcasts and it's like you kind of got to live it i would say two things okay one is just think about it like don't not think about it right like the biggest thing i say to my girlfriends is like don't just make your whole life about work be open to thinking about where these other pieces can fit in because Michelle Obama says this all the time.

1:24:51You can't have everything all the time, but you want to make sure that by the time the things you want, by the time you're ready for the things you want, you're still able to do them. Right. So like really be, you're so strategic about your life. Like don't be afraid to be a little bit strategic about this. Yeah. It's great. And plan, right? Like, like take it seriously. This is part of the plan. This is part of the plan. So take it seriously. I feel like Olivia came out a little bit out there. It's my name on that door, but it's your name on that door. So act like it. Okay. This is the plan, Alex.

1:25:24I'm like, yes, keep going. I think also a lot of my audience is in a phase right now where they're maybe getting engaged or they're thinking about marriage and the way that you just said, you know, you feel so lucky with your partnership. Like, is there any conversations that you do think are essential before getting married that maybe my audience could benefit from having? Well, I do think not being afraid to allow independence in your marriage is important, right? Like I have, I remember having a conversation with one girlfriend who was just like, they have to love Indian food. And I was like, well, why?

1:25:59Like, I will eat Indian food with you. First of all, you can go to an Indian restaurant by yourself. And also I will always eat Indian food. Like you don't have to like all the same things all the time. If anything, it's good if you don't. It's good if you have separate interests. It's important. It's powerful. It's meaningful. And then you get to come back to each other and have something to talk about. So I think not being afraid of independence is really important. And I think the family thing is important. Like do you want to have kids? Do you not want to have kids? I think that's really important.

1:26:29Yeah, I actually really love the independence topic too because I think to anyone listening, it's also like so much that goes into the beginning days of a relationship is this conscious coupling of like, do we work? Do we have the same this and this? And do our lives merge? And so much is seeing if you are compatible, which yes, is important. But then you're merging so heavily and making sure everything aligns that then it's like, well, wait, what if one thing is off? And it's like, no, no, no. Watching my parents now who have been married for 40 plus years and the things that they both don't align on in terms of what they like or whatever.

1:27:03It's actually so beautiful because as they've grown, they've filled in that area with friends or their child goes and does it with them or they do it alone. And that allows for the independence to remain, which is so integral to a relationship because you came in as individuals. You don't want to then just somehow merge. Like you fell in love because of who you came in as an individual. So don't lose that. I also think that like there's a lot my I did not have a very traditional wedding, but I do think about those vows. I think they're so powerful because I think you have to really ask yourself in sickness, like in poverty, when things are not good.

1:27:43Like, is this somebody who I want to be down with and who is going to be down for me on the good days and the bad days? Like really asking yourself in the more challenging times, is this my ride or die? Like, is this my, do I want to be this person's co-pilot? And do I want them to be mine? Because that's also the thing, right? Is that like part of that independence conversation is like, I am the lead in the story of my life. He is the lead in the story of his life. But also I like being the supporting character in his life. And he likes being the supporting character in my life that I can have both.

1:28:13I can be in two movies. I can be in like the Kerry Washington movie where it's all about me. But I also really love being number two on the call sheet in his movie, you know? I love that. I know I'm thinking about like all the girlies listening like if you are just liking him right now because it fits into your social calendar maybe maybe just think a little bit more before he gets down on one knee or whatever you're gonna do it because there is so much more to life than just the fun times you're right in sickness and in health when money is lost like those are the those are the important things Carrie um okay back to your new show as we yeah I was gonna say wind down and I was like every time my therapist says I get triggered I'm like I get it what do you mean I'm like we're at the 50 minute mark please like I could be sobbing and she's like well as we wind down I'm like no don't leave me now I wind up saying it first because I don't want the therapist to say I'm like I know we don't have much time I always say that at the end of sessions I'm like I know we don't have a lot of time no that's actually so real you start to look and you're like we have one minute I'm gonna say it first and it's like oh my god you are not breaking up with me I'm breaking up with you it is that is so real um okay I know you said Obviously, you can't give spoilers, but like, what do you think fans are going to love the most about this show?

1:29:29This show, I swear to you, I know a little something about like water cooler television. This show is your next, like cannot miss. Everybody's talking about it. Psychological thriller, sexy, juicy, girly, fantastic show. It is like, it's so captivating. These characters are unbelievable. The acting is crazy. Like Elizabeth Moss is a beast of an actress. She's just a beast. Kate Mara is a beast. We are all three women who have held our own shows. So to like team up together to support each other in the telling of this story is incredible. I imagine this is what it feels like to be on a dream team at the Olympics where you're like, I can't drop the ball.

1:30:12Like I can't be the one who doesn't sink the ball. Like you have to, I have to win because this team has to win. So every day. Also, one of the things that's really cool about the show that I love is that it's actually told from different point of views. Like it seems like it's my show in the beginning and then it becomes Nancy's show and then it becomes Mary's show. And so like you're actually getting the story from different perspectives, which is like unraveling of truth as you keep going through. So you go deeper and deeper into these secrets and into these discoveries. It's just so good. We would have arguments on set constantly about the things these characters were doing.

1:30:47Like we disagreed among cast and crew about whether things were right or wrong, whether people could do what they were doing. Like, does that make you a good friend or a bad friend? Oh, I love shows like that that actually force you to really self-reflect and be like, wait, do I think, would I agree with that? Would I do that? Yeah. My husband was like, enough, I'd go home and I'd be like, okay, if I died, he's like, I don't want to talk about this anymore. I'm like, I just have a question. If I died, he's like, enough, stop it. no I am so excited to see it for everyone watching like I think we love you we love watching you on our TVs you've just obviously been with us for so long and any project you have I think we all rally behind you because you're just you're our comfort watch you're our girl so like I am so excited for you I'm so excited for this new show and I am I can't wait to call my mom after this because she doesn't even know.

1:31:40She doesn't even know I'm interviewing you today. Does she live here? Oh, so you guys should both come over. This is what you should do. You should both come over and I will convince you to have children. I'm like, I'm gonna take your word for that. I've never followed up. No, I'm just kidding. No, that means so much and you're so sweet and my mom would actually pass out. But thank you for your time. I know you're so busy. I know you have so much going on and like to get two hours of your time to sit with you, to pick your brain, to go back and relive memory lane with the scandal days all the way to the current projects.

1:32:15Like you are such a special woman and I'm honored to have met you and thank you for giving me your time. Thank you so much. And thank you for forcing me to call my friend, Tony. Tony, literally hearing Olivia and Fitz one more time, I was like, oh, I need to go rewatch it now. Thank you. Thank you.

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