Michelle Obama: We Still Go High

30:26So we, if we don't talk about, if we don't have to talk about fashion, then let's make it irrelevant. Then why are there dress codes? And why are people commenting about people's hair? Why are we doing any of it? It puts us in a trap in a way, but it can also be fun. I know. It's such a good point. It can have such a fun freedom to it, but we would be remiss to not acknowledge everything that you've said in this book so brilliantly of just like, yes, but guys, we have to acknowledge that women just have such a different standard that we're held to. And I appreciate you acknowledging that, yes, there is a different level of privilege as the two of us sitting here right now and the outfit choices that we're making.

31:10Yes, we can decide to send a message that we're wearing. But a lot of times right now in our position, we are not being held to, well, you wore that so you're not going to get the job now. But if you rewound to our lives, like when I was a younger girl, I did dress a specific way because I knew I was in a male-dominated industry. And I knew I would have a better time if I wore a tighter shirt because the guy would maybe give me more attention. What I did with that, though, is so important. And I appreciate you acknowledging that. It's like don't lose yourself to the game of the misogyny that we all get wrapped into.

31:43And I want to talk about social media with you because this plays into it where that's the newest arena where women are being objectified. And I emphasize newest. We've been objectified for forever since day one. But this is this is new. You've talked about how women and girls are demeaned, devalued and disrespected, especially online now. And we have studies to back it up. Right. Mental health issues, body image issues, self-esteem issues. One really sad reality of this is that it's not just men tearing women down. This is women. It's more often women tearing each other down. And that's even more painful because it's sadly, I hate to say it, we expect it from men.

32:33And so it hurts that much more when it is another woman doing it to another woman. how did you deal when women came at you and do you have advice for women who are victims of you know being unfairly targeted i mean it's it's you know surprisingly yeah it would hurt more um coming from a woman um because it's like wow you know you know you know what we're going through But here's what helps me. And it takes time, maturity to kind of come to peace with this. But in order to keep myself sane in the midst of this on all levels, I just try to wonder what's going on in the mind of the person who can go there, right?

33:31And when I think about women attacking women, it is always rooted in the insecurity and lack of self-esteem that is rampant in our culture. Like we're set up to feel badly about ourselves, right? And then to turn against ourselves and then to turn on each other. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there. So I try to humanize my victimizer and say, something happened to you. Something is tearing away and it doesn't have to do with me. I might've been the closest, easiest target for you at the time. But let me so that I can stay sane and wake up and show up well with people. Because as First Lady, that's ultimately my job.

34:28I mean, I couldn't let something break me to the point where I got so cynical and despondent about the whole of this country. To me, it's my job to believe in America, to believe in our utter deep goodness, because that is true. And when people go astray, it's because of something that happened to them, a brokenness. And that helps me right-size my feelings. I agree with you, because I think, especially with therapy and we have psychology, right? We know through psychology that women that are attacking other women. It's like there is an insecurity. There is a pain. And a lot of times I think online, especially the conversation does stop there though of, oh, she's just jealous or she's insecure.

35:20She's going through something. I mean, I think the term mean girl for the millennial and Gen Z generation, it has been so present in their vernacular. It is at the forefront of the way that they speak and they look at each other. She's a mean girl. She's a mean girl. She's not a mean girl. I guess my question, though, to you would be, if we know this, if these people are in pain, then how do we solve this issue? Like, how can the women who are bullying and abusing redirect that anger and that insecurity not onto other women, but to where? Yeah, yeah. One of the reasons why I focus so much of my energy in the White House and in my post-White House years on just working on issues of women and girls and their empowerment and self-esteem.

36:12We're not focused on that strategically or politically. We haven't had conversations in a long time just about education and the education system or what kind of afterschool opportunities are there for kids? I mean, you know, we as a society aren't talking about a lot these days about how we are nurturing and protecting our kids. So now everybody is taking it on individually, right? So what do I do with my girls? I'm trying to make sure that they feel seen in their household because they, you know, and I'm trying to sign them up for activities that make them feel strong and to build confidence.

36:58And, you know, I'm doing that for myself and I'm staying healthy and, you know, but how do you deal with the problem systemically? Yeah, that's where government and taxpayers and people caring about one another and caring about our kids, it happens because we give wonderful places for kids, girls to land, you know um i think you know kids need to young girls need to be in groups you know girl scout groups and opportunities they need to be able to play sports and they need to be able to they need to have access to things that get them out of their loneliness and off of their phone and and get their brains and bodies working right so so it's a i think it's just such a big you know i I know we could be here for weeks and days talking about this because you're right.

37:53It is such a systemic issue. I couldn't help but think, too, when you're talking about, you know, bring women together. And I know how you talk a lot about your kitchen table girlfriends and how integral they have been to your life. And I think every woman can feel that when you have your girlfriends, like you say, you know, love Brock, but they're your sanity. Those girls, we get each other. The flip side, though, is still living in this patriarchal society. It breeds competition between women because there is not enough room for all of us. So there's 90 people in the room and the three women are coming in.

38:31How can you not feel competitive? And and then I think about you in this situation. It's like by society standard. Now you are the friend to be jealous of. Right. Right. How have you worked through the competitive dynamics with girlfriends and tried to keep it not competitive? Well, some of it is like how you pick and choose. Right. So in the light, when I talked about the kitchen table, it's like you've got to be really smart and selective about who you let in, who you let stay in and who who you let out. Um, you know, who, who is ready to follow the path that you want to go on. Right. And that's, that's practice.

39:17Right. Uh, one of the things that I say to my girls and to young girls, it's like, don't be afraid to make friends, you know, be open, stay open. Um, and I always wanted my girls, no matter what they were going through, it's like, try on new people and, and let them in because you're strong enough to deal with somebody who might disappoint you because sometimes people disappoint you. And if they disappoint you in a way that's dangerous, let them out quickly, you know, slow ghost, get them, get a move on, and the more you practice it, the more you recognize it quicker, you know? And so for me, I think I choose well, first of all.

40:03And so it starts there. And again, that takes practice. You learn that over time. You learn yourself. And once my friends are in, in my journey, we're all going together, you know? I mean, it's just, it's not, it's never just my journey. It's like, you're coming, you know, let's do this, you know? I had to do that really proactively as first lady because we lived in this bubble. And if I wasn't proactive about maintaining my relationships with my friends, everybody could have easily slipped away. you didn't have my phone number you can't walk up to my door and just girl what you up to it's like nope you got to go through eight rounds of security you know hand in your social security card you gotta you know you get you get a whole to do audit you know it's like hey you're a high maintenance friend michelle i would understand it's like you know what i give up so right you know it's a good point so that's why i said even making friends as first lady i didn't like write that off.

41:03I was like, I'm going to have to really extend myself for a new mother to be like, okay, Sasha's coming over for a sleepover. We're going to need to know your social security number. We're going to, there's going to be a sweep of your home. They're going to find out, they're going to want to know about whether you have guns in the house or drugs. They won't take them from you, but they need to know there will be men standing up. So what time do you want her come by. They're like, I don't know anymore. So you, you, you know, that, that kind of helps you. It's like, okay, you ready? You, you, you ready?

41:38You ready? Let's go. Um, so I just, for me, um, I just, I take my friends with me as much as possible. So you're coming with me. We're doing, you know, we're doing bootcamps, you know, once a quarter, we're going on trips, we're planning the mother-daughter ski trip, we're, and a lot of times I would take the lead because you, you know, you can't schedule me, you know? So realizing those limitations. And I think when you're all kind of, even if people aren't rising or doing the same thing, I found that if my friends feel like I see them and I'm like, I want you on my journey and we're all gonna, we're all gonna enjoy this together.

42:27It's not me and you. I found that that's the way I've kept this sort of, am I the friend to be jealous of? It's like, we're all going up this mountain together. I mean, I think that my audience needs to hear that because I think it's very present right now in a lot of people's lives we've got a lot of you know 18 to 30 40 year olds listening and it's like you're leaving maybe college did you get the job who's moving who's got the boyfriend who's got the thing and it's it there's so much clouded competition because you think well oh god she got married first and i haven't yet or she had the kid and i didn't yet Well, because this is what we're doing is we're checking boxes, right?

43:16And social media kind of, you know, it exacerbates that because now you know what everybody is doing and everybody's only posting the good things that they're doing. The thing that I want the listeners to know, young women, is that the value of cultivating friendships is important. It's as important as the degree that you got in college. It's as important as the job title and the salary or the dude you're trying to, you know, catch or the length of your veil on your wedding dress. Like that, all that stuff comes and goes. I don't even remember. I remember my wedding. You know, I have the pictures.

44:05It was a wonderful day. But my friendships, those relationships are important. And I just want, you know, in the advent of technology and social media, it's almost like we're telling people you're okay by yourself. All you need is your phone, some apps and success. And what I'm saying is, no, you need friends and you have to work on that. That means you have to be a good friend. That means you have to put down your stuff and prioritize your friendships if you want to have them. Let's talk about that. Because there's so much pressure on women to present as perfect, right? And then get validated for it.

44:48And especially you just said on social media, but you think back in the day, two magazines come out a month and it doesn't mean that there's not, you know, scrutinizing and comparing and everyone looking at it, but it's endless now. It is 24-7. Every day, all day. All day. The Photoshop's an airbrush and we're curating and we're carefully, you know, designing how we want people to think about us. Can you talk a little bit to perfection and how so many women and girls feel like they need to reach this unattainable goal? Yeah. I mean, I'm generationally kind of, it's the experience that young women, girls are having now, it is foreign to me.

45:34I, you know, I didn't, I'm going to be 62. I'm an old lady. I'm like my grandmother, right? That's how I'm counting the days and going, you know what? When I thought my grandmother was old, she was my age, right? Stop, Michelle. No. But with as fast as things have changed, we are in the midst of one of the, a major industrial revolution. It was it's like the creation of electricity. Right. The TV like this is new. Right. And I'm of the old guard. Right. So I don't I don't have the habit. I'm not hooked on it. Like I'm still picking up a book. I'm still calling a friend. Right. I don't even know why you would want to be lonely.

46:24Like, why are you alone? It's like, don't do that. You know, sounds so good when you say it. Go to the coffee shop. You know, don't order the thing in. Just get out, right? Go to the gym, you know, just because you can be by yourself. Don't do it. So that it is foreign to me, the pressure that you guys feel. But I get it. I get it. What I want to tell people, young women, is get off the phone. I really do. It's like, it's a habit. It's not a need. And I'm not saying get rid of it. I'm just saying, you've got to get off of the phone and start investing in your in real life stuff and experiences.

47:13But can we go as far to say like, it's an addiction? Yes. Think about this. It's intended to be an addiction. Right? Like no generation prior to this had four-year-olds being addicted to something, five-year-olds, six-year-olds, 10-year-olds. We have addiction right now that we cannot stop. I am hoping, Alex, that the learning curve is going to be quick, right? Because we didn't know, right? This is so new, you know? And now we're starting to get the statistics in on depression. This is real. The dip and the rise in depression is directly connected and linked to the creation and rise of social media.

47:57And I'm hoping that the society parents will start understanding that this isn't just a free-for-all thing. There are great things about it, but there are a lot of problems with it. So we have to stop. We have to start regulating. Well, we have to start regulating also because I've interfaced with some young kids and I'll be like, why do you want to have this phone over this phone? Or why do you not want to take your phone and put it away for a while. And they're like, because if I don't see it, then I go to school tomorrow and I am the only person in the class that is not aware of what the entire rest of the class was talking about.

48:33So then there's like a bullying element and there's an alienization that's happening where you're like, I don't wanna be the only kid that's not clued in and tapped in. So then it cannot be one kid trying to lead the pack. And it can't be, right. And that's some of the experts have said it, Jonathan Haidt, Scott Galloway, a lot of people who've written books about it have said that it would be a lot better if parents and communities made these decisions together, right? So that you, you know, but we're still a long way from that. We're still figuring that out. In the meantime, I don't know that I have a, my message is the old school message of no one is perfect.

49:14That stuff isn't real. It's not real at all. It is just not real at all. And so why I write this book and try to talk openly is that if people are listening to me and I'm saying that, look, this face, it takes work to do. And I'm not trying to have a full face every day. I wear makeup when I'm going to be on TV, right? That no one is living these great lives. It's just, I know that because I live a really great life and it's not always perfect. It's a message that I don't know lands because it's rooted in what I know is the truth. And all I can say is, how do I know? Because I know. And so don't - Don't feed into it.

50:00Don't feed into it because, and I can also say, I know a lot of these people that you're looking at. I know a lot of these celebrities. Girl, same. And I'm like, trust us right it's like it's not exactly what it seems and this is work they're getting paid for it right and i think something that you um you know talking about even just like there needs to be actual change and we need to organizationally come together it is similar to what we're talking about with women and change right and i think especially with social media the amplification of aging and the conversation about aging around women there are billion dollar brands that are pushing anti-aging, aka saying as a woman gets older, it is a bad thing to age.

50:45Meanwhile, it is a privilege to age, but we have been warped to believe, put this cream on or inject this thing into your face and then you will be deemed more worthy to society. In your book, you talk about aging, right? And embracing new seasons of life rather than freaking out over a gray hair or a wrinkle. But how do we as a society fight this demonization of aging women?

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53:48That's all. It's the canary in the coal mine. I'm just telling you, ladies, girls, like it gets better and better and better. You know? Yeah. The youth and your skinny waist when you're 20. Yeah. But you have no money. You don't know what to do with it. I mean, it's like, man, it's, and it's, it's hard. You know, you're confused all your twenties and thirties and I'm just telling people you're right. Yes. It's confusing and it feels painful, but it's, it gets better. And so for me, I'm also, you know, what we are, what we don't do is celebrate the wisdom of older women. right I mean there's so much that older women know for sure like it's like we were there I got the answer I can really like I know I I did it right I'm not saying I know because I'm smarter I just tried all that I failed that doesn't you know you can literally go that's not gonna work for you doesn't mean you're not gonna try it but when it doesn't like I can tell you don't feel badly that you failed because it wasn't ever going to work.

55:02And there was only one way to learn that is that you did it and it's okay that you did. There's so much we have to offer, but what do we do? Instead of podcasts and blogs and social media being run by really wise women who actually have facts, right? It's a bunch of kids who are like, you don't know. I know you don't know. I mean, like I love a parenting blog for sure. You know, when it comes to the best bottle and the new contraptions, because that stuff is better. Like I'm like, wow, I wish I had that stroller that you can just pop and close. But like, who do I want to listen to on like childhood behavioral stuff.

55:51I want to talk to a woman, a parent, not just woman. I want to see what your adult children look like. I just want to meet them before I figure out whether I'm going to follow your theory. Because when you're young, you don't know. You're just living it. You're seeing if it's working. You're testing it. And so I think the social connection of young mothers or young parents struggling, that's a cool thing. But guess who has some real wisdom around? Like, I tried this and it failed. But where are those bloggers? Where are those conversations happening? And where are young women just coming to ask, to say, well, let me sit down with my moms and my aunts?

56:34It's such a good point, Michelle. But then again, I think because of the competition and the misogyny and how warped our brains are, I see women in the comment section saying, aren't you too old to be doing that? Aren't you too old to be doing this? And so, but again, it's all projection. It's the fear of getting older. It's like, how can the absence or the presence of wrinkles on my forehead dictate the words that are coming out of my mouth and how much you actually respect them or don't respect them? And so aging for women, it's this fear when really, again, like you said, for men, it's like we're washed up, they're wise.

57:11It gives them integrity. We're irrelevant. And so there's this push and pull that I think at some point you're right. Women have to look inward and start to say, why am I not tapping into this older generation who is looking down being like, the hands out, we got you. And I think those are great conversations for young women to have with one another. Right. Because I think I haven't met an older woman that isn't like any like you want to know. You're asking? Yes. Sit down. Let's talk. I don't want you to fail. I want you to be better than me because now I really am not competing. Like all that stuff that was going on, we learned it didn't help.

57:54It didn't, it just messed up a lot of stuff. So now, you know, we can really look at that generation. At least I know I'm in that place. No, it's a great point. Like it's the favorite thing I have to do, which is impart something that I learned to somebody younger. That's why speaking of, you know, you have this wisdom, you have talked about the gender gap when it comes to confidence. As women, we are, you know, often doubted and underestimated by others and ourselves. We struggle with imposter syndrome while men walk around with what you call unearned confidence. As someone who has been such a symbol of strength for women around the world, when did you doubt yourself the most and how did you get through those periods?

58:43Wow. You know, your 20s and 30s are tough times, right? Because I always, I've learned or felt that And women were less, or at least I was less likely to claim what I knew because I was always, there was always, maybe I don't know. And well, and I don't want to, I don't want to sound too pompous or let me not cut you off. Um, you know, we're, we're, we're more socialized to don't step on toes because then you're bossy. You know, there's also a little smack down of it. You know, it's like, well, if you're, if you're a little too aggressive, now you're aggressive. You're, you're, you're not. So sometimes those labels happen and we get them.

59:31I mean, my, my, my own mother, I was, she was like, you're a bossy. I'm the bossy one. You know, it's like, I felt like the bossy one my whole life. And I know a lot of outspoken young girls who were labeled as the bossy ones in their family when they were probably the ones that like had good instincts and were organized and had opinions. And, you know, so that stuff is actually happening to us. It's not in our minds. Right. It's like self-doubt because you are young and you are figuring it out. And so the imposter syndrome, I, you know, in your book, I love how you talk about this because you talk about the tension that we often face as women between wanting to be viewed as both a woman of substance and a woman of style.

1:00:17And so, right, in other words, it's like you want to be respected for your brain and you also you want to be cool. You want to have a career and you want to have a romantic relationship. you somehow managed multiple identities at the same time you were an attorney and you were on the cover of vogue you were known as mom in chief and you were meeting with the leaders of foreign countries how did you nurture all of those identities and stay whole because this is so relevant to my audience right now they're struggling to be multiple things at once and feel confident about. What I've come to learn is that this hook, can you have it all?

1:00:59Yes, not at the same time. And I think that we beat ourselves up because here's what I, there are a lot of women who are listening, a lot of women, period, who I will call 120 percenters. That means that just showing up means we're not just showing up. We're excelling because we've always had to do that to get a seat at the table. We have to be smarter and brighter. And we kind of do because if you slip up, you don't necessarily get a second chance or the benefit of the doubt. So we've been trained to do that. So now we're operating like that and trying to do it with everything that we're doing.

1:01:37And 120 % plus 120 % plus 120 % adds up to crazy. And a mental breakdown. Exactly. So one of the things I had to learn is that like a lot of times my 50 % is good enough, but I have to first be okay with it, right? So when it came to raising my kids and keeping my job, when I felt the push of, I don't know if I'm like, am I there for my kids like I want to? Like I had to stop breastfeeding and I had to do this and I had to go back. But I like having the salary and being able to pay down our student debt. And why walk away from that? What I realized was like, okay, I can't be driving hard at my job at this time.

1:02:30My husband is in politics. He has three jobs. Somebody's got to take it down a notch. So I've learned to stay in the car, keep your foot on the gas, but just don't floor it all the time on all things. That doesn't mean you have to brake. That doesn't mean you have to pull the car over and get out. It just means that there will be aspects of parts of yourself that you can't go 120%. And then that means that we as women have to accept a little bit less from ourselves than we're used to. And that takes, you have to just get used to that. And it's all in here, right? It's all the internal message.

1:03:18Like, if you have a job, maybe you aren't going to be able to make homemade baby food. you know and guess what like I loved the jar face like there was nothing better than that dinner I was like whoa I when they started needing real real food I was like oh curses I gotta cook but that stage you know sweet potatoes I loved it and I'd just go to the grocery store I'd be like look at mom figure you're gonna have a little beef here a little carrot in a jar. I, you know, I mean, I love it. I love it. It's so real though. So you have to be kind of okay with that's not going to kill them. Or maybe you, you can't breastfeed for a year because you can't, um, you don't like it.

1:04:07Your body isn't able to, you had to go back to work. Baby's going to be fine. You know, I mean, our parents didn't even breastfeed. I mean, there was a generation of women that were told, Similac, here you go. I am a formula baby. 5 '11", brain's working just fine. Just a little. Just a little bit. Just a little bit. So we have to take some pressure off of ourselves. It's like, why are we trying to bounce back? What's the bounce back? You're going to have a baby, your whole body is twisted up and then you want to like be back at the gym doing solid core at the why why are we doing this to ourselves and i think the comparison for women when especially mothers um i've seen again because social media it just is non-stop we don't know what everyone's going through so we're lying yes they're lying and so when you're saying you're popping the jar open and you put it on the plate you're taking a picture of the plate you're like look at what i did and And it's just like, let's not do that to each other.

1:05:11Let's be more honest about the struggle. I try to do that. And I am constantly telling young mothers, it's coming, right? You don't have to get off your career track. And I don't even recommend it because kids grow up fast. And then they're gone. You've sacrificed everything. And you know when they leave? They leave. They close the door and act like you never sacrificed. They're like, I remember you. I don't need you anymore, right? So I'm like, you better have saved something for yourself so that when that period comes and they're ready to move on and you're also not holding on longer because now what am I going to do?

1:05:54I devoted everything to you and I need to, now I've got to fill my time. So I encourage people to hang in there and keep something for yourself throughout this process. But that means you don't, maybe you're not going to be VP in five years. Like if you have in your mind that there's a track and there's only one way to do it, that's what trips us up a lot of times. Like I'm going to be partner by the time I'm 28. hey look if you live until you're 80 90 there's so much time there's so much and i tell people look i had to get off the track and take pay cuts and come back sacrifice because my husband was president you know yeah and then that that was kind of a you know so um but in the midst of that i still managed to be a lawyer run a non-profit i can run down the list be an author you know I raised really sane kids who aren't perfect, but they're really, really good.

1:07:04So there is time, but we have to give ourselves a lot more grace in the process. That's what I've learned. Giving myself grace, it's like, yeah, I'm not getting it all right. And then we as women have to support each other. We just really have to stop being a part of the fantasy.

1:07:32It's not serving us. It's not true. And it's okay to not be happy sometimes. That's also a thing. Not being perfectly satisfied and in the exact place that you want every part of your life, that's what life is. Yeah, that's what life is. And I love how you said like, but I understand that society makes women feel like they have to be perfect. So when it's very uncomfortable at first when you're like, I'm not succeeding and I'm not doing the best. Like it reminds me in your memoir how you would tell your girls to always start dinner even if your husband hadn't come home yet because I didn't want them to ever believe that life began when the man of the house arrived home.

1:08:17We didn't wait for dad. It was his job to now catch up with us. I think society puts such a pressure on women to prioritize finding a man over finding a career and a life that they love. As women, I would love your wisdom and advice of like, how do we prioritize finding fulfillment within ourselves first before finding fulfillment in a marriage or a partnership? I think it starts with the subliminal messages that we send our girls. And I'm really, I have two beautiful daughters. And, you know, you find yourself slipping up and going, are you dating anyone? And it's like, let me not make that the first question or the second question or a question at all.

1:09:07Like, let me, you know, because I hear it being asked. You run out of stuff to say to a young girl. It's like, are you dating anyone? um you know it's like I I just in our girl group I'm when it comes up and we do that I try to talk to our my mom friends about it and what what that's doing what are our own insecurities as mothers like that we're like well you seem happy and you're on a track but do you have a boyfriend like that, you know. So bad. It's just a, when you break it down like that, it's like those are the little things that no matter what, and then despite what your parents say, it's just a social pressure.

1:09:53You see everybody getting married. So I think we have to be mindful of the way we craft questions to our, not just our daughters, but our sons, how we talk about what happiness is and we have to work hard to separate our fears and insecurities as parents we have to separate that from our kids right because we're still carrying these old images we are still programmed we are still of a generation where that's what women did you went to we did go to college we were different there was the expectation that you went to college we all got our degrees, but everybody started getting their MRS, as they called it, out of college.

1:10:37And that was also a part of it. And you'd have a career, but you do it until you got pregnant. You know, so we have to admit that women of my generation, there was a there was a path. And we and we carry that with us. And we imprint that onto our kids as like, this is the way that I know that you'll be happy so I can stop worrying about you and I can know that you'll have a good life. It's such a good point of like, you know, putting the former beliefs and system onto the new generations. Cause like you even think about it, like why do women have miss, misses, and then miss and men never change from mister.

1:11:23They are. You're just, you're always you. Once again, you You don't have to evolve. See, we're even evolving. What do I call myself? We're changing up here. Right. You know, it's like I went through that, too, when I got married. I was like, OK, I'm going to meet Michelle Robinson Obama. All right. I did that. I was I was in a real career and I felt like this is a lot of name. It feels like a little silly. Michelle Robinson Obama. Hello. I did that for like a month. And I was like, OK, that that's I'm tired. You know, I got to write that down. That's long. Three syllables for three names. It's too much.

1:11:59It's too much. So I was like, okay, let me pick one. And I stuck with Obama because I had a brother. I didn't come from a family that my father was like, you carry the name. You know, it was like, it's a name. And I was like, Obama is really strange name. So let's all just be this strange name together. You know, let's just all take it on. It's a good name. I'll take it. I'll take it. But that was the thought. It's like, let me just pick. But he didn't he wasn't going through this. He wasn't changing his license and his social security number. And, you know, he you know. So, yeah, another way that we evolve.

1:12:36And it's another way to send a subliminal message that it is up to us to do the evolving. It is. And I love how you've spoken about society's expectations we're discussing, obviously, of women to stay nice and to stay passive and small and how hard it is if you are a driven, ambitious woman trying to make a big impact. when we talk about dating for my audience, so many women, I think then if they are going against the societal norms and they're like, okay, I'm going to focus on myself. I'm going to pour into myself. I'm going to focus on being an individual. I don't need a man. I want a man, but I don't need a man.

1:13:16Then it brings the whole caliber of, oh God, then you have to potentially shrink yourself when you do find a man because you're so sure of yourself. And that is terrifying for most men. And so they're threatened and you're kind of trying to play the game and you can't be your full self. Did you ever feel like you had to do that when you first met Barack Obama and you were an experienced lawyer and he was, you know, a summer associate? Yeah. Fortunately, it was one of the things that drew me to him. You know, like I didn't have to, I didn't have to change my fundamental self. I think it helped that we started out that summer with me not seeing him as a potential because I was his advisor.

1:14:07And I was like, yeah, no, we're not going to do that. Right. And why? You know, he's cute, but I have a lot of friends. And so I think that helped. Right. Because I wasn't, we didn't start up our relationship as, oh, I'm going to try to, yeah, you know, and maybe it would have. But I think we kind of entered it, you know, as peers, you know, and we developed our relationship because we had the same kind of humor and we'd make the same kind of jokes and we'd find the same things kind of corny, you know. And I was being fully myself, cynical in ways. And, you know, I'd pick at it and pick at them and be like, that's weird.

1:14:45Why do you do that? I mean, so the fact that that made him think we should date. Right. It's like that meant that like that didn't repel him. That was like he was like and I was like, no, we shouldn't date because that looks tacky. And it was like, I don't care what people say. um so it's like you know so what do i tell a lot of young girls like dating different people helped me to to see the difference in who barack was when he showed up i don't you know if he had been the first person i dated because i just didn't date i might have taken that for granted i might have thought yeah well that these are buddy vibes right um i had learned enough to know this is this is different in an important way.

1:15:36And I just think that's the experience of dating different people and noticing. In the end, I want young listeners to focus more on their internal feelings. It's like really, instead of what the world is telling you to feel, really start trusting your gut and building that internal gut of how you feel about other people, how you feel about yourself. Because I think in the end, the work is still within. The only thing you really can control is you in this world. And even in my marriage now, you go through the period I want him to be different. I want him to do this differently. I've grown to know I don't have control over him, just like he doesn't have control over me.

1:16:29So let me do my work and let him do our work. And together, we come together as whole people. And so I want our listeners, because they're mine now too, right? Bring them in, Michelle. Like, let's do the work on self. Like, start feeling good about yourself. Start working on your health. Start feeling strong within yourself. Start practicing self-esteem. Start working on building your relationships and your friendships. You know, work on being as whole as you can be. Because you can't control who's going to love you, who's going to like you, who's going to give you a job. who's going to see you the way you want to be seen, because everybody has their own stuff.

1:17:23And so you can't define yourself by other people's stuff. So how do we become more confident individuals? We have to practice that, work on ourselves. We have to know, pick apart those aspects of our childhood that we carry around. I am a believer in therapy. I am. I go to therapy. We've been in couples therapy. I believe in the practice of having those conversations with objective people who help you piece through that stuff. And it's a constant, it's constant work. You don't get to a point where like, I'm there, I'm done, I'm good. It's over, right? And then so I don't want people to be intimidated by like, this is what life is.

1:18:08We are ever growing, evolving, improving. There isn't like a finish line where you get an A and you're now a whole person perfectly. I'm 62. It doesn't happen. My mother was 86 when she died and there were parts of her that she was still building upon. And so it's not in your 80s. I had a great conversation with Jane Fonda and Bethann Hardison on my podcast about aging in the public eye. They're still having those conversations with themselves about evolving. And I think that that is the power that we have as women is that we know we have to keep evolving. And so we do. A lot of men don't. They don't.

1:18:52It's so true. They're just like here and proud of it. Right. Because I've worn these same pants for 20. It's like, don't say that. Like, that's not cool. It's not impressive. It's not impressive. Not impressive. no it's so inspiring the way that you are speaking about this because um i remember i was so fortunate i got to interview jane goodall and she talked a lot about how she was still pushing and she was still going because she still wanted to learn and i think having an appetite to learn means you want to change and you want to evolve and you want to grow and i agree with you the power of the system basically fucking us being like, you're not enough and you need to be this.

1:19:37It does force us to constantly have our head on a swivel. So in a beautiful way, you have to find the positives. We're forced to be so multifaceted and we're forced to know who we are in so many different lanes. And we're also forced at average, 18, 21, 30, 40, 50, 60, at 80. We have to constantly be thinking how we're evolving because society is forcing us to do that. But if we can use it to our advantage, that's when you become unstoppable. And we can give ourself grace in the process. Because in the end, I think we're all just too hard on ourselves that it starts there, right? And so you're your first fan.

1:20:21And if your first fan is like, you're just kicking your ass. Like, of course, you're mad and bitchy and want to beat the other woman. Of course, that you're competitive within yourself. Right. And so that's where it splatters out onto everything else. And I think that women, we need to be kinder to ourselves, really gentler, you know? The anger that can come up with the double standards, I just want to make sure we hit on this because I feel a lot of, in a beautiful way, yes, there is a lot going on with these generations, but we are vocal and people are saying how they feel. But it is crazy how the world still punishes outspoken women and judges us more harshly than And men who literally say the exact same thing as us, right?

1:21:12At the beginning of your husband's first campaign, you were labeled an angry black woman because you were speaking assertively and honestly. And passionately. Yeah, you referenced that earlier of how they turned passion into anger. What advice would you give to strong women in this upcoming generation right now who are listening who have been labeled a bitch or too much or too passionate? and they're doing the same exact thing as their male counterparts. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's, you know, there's still strategy in all of it, right? You know, what I found that I had to do, I had to be more thoughtful about my tone.

1:21:53I didn't agree with it, right? But I was like, until people get to know me, okay, let me smile a little bit more. Let me make sure I smile, right? Because sometimes I'm talking and it's like, and that's the photo they get. Right. So that's on the front page. I was like, I didn't feel that way, but that was in the middle. And I don't, I don't, I didn't like this, but I'm like, okay, we're, we're, we still live in a society that has a different standard for women. So it's just like with fashion. Let me, let me understand the game and let me, let me, let me play the game. All right. So instead of being angry about being called angry, I was like, OK, let me be careful about doing extemporaneous speaking.

1:22:43Right. Because I can do it. But then I launch. Right. That's why I do more speeches publicly, because I can take time and think about what I want to say and how I want to say it and sort of think about, you know, how I come off. I think now the more people have gotten to know me, right, at this stage in my life, I feel like, this is why I say, okay, if you know me, you know, you've heard me enough. You know my heart. You know, yeah, I can be funny, but angry? Nah, not really. I'm not that angry about that. I am angry about stuff. I'm angry about injustice, unfairness. I hate bullies. There's a lot I'm angry about.

1:23:25And I feel justified in being angry about it. So, all right, you got me. I am angry about some things, but generally, right? But it takes some time to earn that, right? So as I'm talking to younger women, it's like, understand how people are going to come at you, you know, and then think about how you want to deal with that because it's not going to go away. So what's your strategy of understanding that this is part of the game, that it doesn't define you. But if you're like, I think it is more important for me to get the point across than to be right about how I do it. Especially in the world that we're in, which was, it's the country, right?

1:24:19So it wasn't about me. It's not how I feel. To me, that's what you, the responsibility of being a leader, that it's not your feelings anymore. Like I can have my feelings now because everything I'm doing is about me. But when I was first lady and when I'm doing public things, it's like, okay, my ego. So how do I, how do I get this to work? You know, that's what I think about. And if, if, if I'm, if I'm delivering something in a way that makes the message fall short on some ears, then I'm going to change it because I want people to get the message. It doesn't matter how I feel. I'm okay with making some changes to get this thing done.

1:25:05It's such good advice, Michelle. Even for myself, personally, I feel like a sponge right now. I'm like, keep talking, just keep going. How much more time do we have? Because it's so relevant to the way that women live right now it's like there are more ambitious women than ever which is amazing there are women working we finally are allowed to vote we all have credit cards great now we actually have ambition and we're trying and it is an uphill battle but we are being met with like we i said the same thing as him why didn't that work it is we have to acknowledge the game and i think for a while potentially especially with feminists and everything we felt weird being like no play the game because it feels like we are twisting something and we're being sneaky and it's like no no no we are the other we are the other so when we are coming in it's we're always playing someone else's game as women we are the other sex so it's okay if you are trying to move a certain way because we live in a man's world and so you have to sometimes placate and smile and do these things but if you get your message across that's kind of all that matters, if you get what you wanted to get done.

1:26:13And the other piece of that is that when we do have power, let's just not become male versions of the thing that was, female versions of the thing that was broken, you know, because a lot of this has to do with leverage, right? So if you don't have the power to change it, then you've got to work to get the power. And sometimes there are compromises that have to be made to get the power. And then when you get the power, when you're the boss, when you're running your own thing, then how do you behave as the leader? That like then, like, because this is your culture, your setting, when you're in charge of the culture, and if you're still, if you're perpetuating the game, then you're a problem.

1:26:59And not approving it. You know, that means that then you lost the plot on the way in. So as we're being ambitious women, when we do get that thing, then who are you in it? How are you changing culture? How are you shifting? Are you just repeating the mistakes that made you play the game in the first place? The game is to get the power to have impact, to broaden the aperture of what is possible. But when we do have the power, if we're oppressing, if we're shouting down, if we're not including, if, you know, if you're in charge of the dress code, change it. You know, if you are the head of HR and there are ways that you can make life easier for, you know, working mothers and families, then be the advocate at the table and don't say, well, I had to, when I, you know, I didn't have this when I was there.

1:27:57So you have to pay the same dues. Be the change. Yeah, be the change. And don't like you don't want everybody to have to pay your dues. If you know the dues were there, then open it up for your the next generation. Make your seat the seat that makes it easier for others like you to be there. Something as you're saying that to bring men into this conversation, which I was watching your speech in 2016 today when you were the whole speech was really about women and you were you know there for Hillary and it was such a beautiful moment because you're like and men men listening and I think sometimes I don't want ever to have men leave the conversation like and be like oh I guess it's not about me yeah it's not about me and it's us against you and it's a whole thing so I think to bring men into this conversation you've talked about some really important male figures in your life.

1:28:53You've talked about your father, your brother, your husband. How do we bring men in and make them allies and partners to help solve these issues? Because women cannot do this alone. We need them. No, no. I mean, look, I, as the older I get, I realized how blessed and rare my existence was as a woman in the world to be surrounded by so many amazing men where I was always safe. And realizing that that's more unique, like abuse, neglect, none of it. I had uncles and brothers and both of my grandfathers. right? I now understand how rare that is. Like it's sad and it makes me sad to know that so many of us women and girls don't, can't say that, that they had someone in their life that, that harmed them in some way.

1:30:00They were harmed at the hands of a man that they couldn't trust. I didn't have that. And I feel blessed and I understand that's unique. So in that sense, we can't lump men into a category, right? Because there are a lot of allies, you know, they, they're different from us that, you know, we can joke. It's like, you're not that good at that. But I've grown up with wonderful men who, the men in my life helped me with this confidence. I was always a part of the crew. I was never the little girl out. My father always thought, he's going to learn a box, you're going to learn a box. You know, my brother protected me.

1:30:53Right. So we can't forget that there are so many good men that, you know, it isn't an us against them. And we're the ones raising them still. You know, we have so much to impact into how our young men are shaped as mothers and as women in the world. And so we have to see them as essential allies from the moment they show up in the world. So, but we can't love them into complacency or incapability. You know, we're always building the men that we want. And so my message to those men, you know, when I'm in a room full of CEOs and men, the thing I say to them, assuming that I'm talking to all the good ones, it's like, I know you love your daughters, right?

1:31:50Because we're of a generation now where the way my father fathered me is not unique anymore. Like now we have fathers who want their little girls to be CEOs. Like you raise them and you want them to believe that they can be anything, right? And so now you're in power. So the question is, are you building the world that you told your little girl existed, right? Can you look around the C-suite that you run and say that the little girl that I put all these thoughts and ideas in, that she'll be safe at this table that I've created and that I control. And I'm hoping that if men think about the tables they're creating, and they're not just looking at the women they don't know, women that are not their children.

1:32:43You know, it's like men don't raise us, right? So maybe they don't see us as part of them, but maybe if you see your daughter at the table, then you'll do the work to make the table a place that will respect and honor the world that you told her she could have. Because I always say, then if you don't, you were lying to her because she's going to enter this world with the beliefs that you built her up. You built her up, you set her up. And that can be crushing. And it's interesting when I put it that way, like those rooms can go a little quiet in a way that I think, I don't know that there are men thinking about that allyship in that way, like putting themselves in the role of their daughters that they're raising, right?

1:33:39But that's why even just this conversation, Michelle, it's like I can already We see it just like clipping that, having that out there for people to consume what you're just saying. Like, I do think I can recognize as a woman as much as you think, oh, my God, like, I hate these freaking men. That is going to help all of us get closer to this goal of we do deserve to be equal to men. We really do. And we still aren't. And so it's like you have to allow the people who are in the position of power to let us in. And so to completely alienate them, I think a lot of men in this generation are like, I don't even know what I'm supposed to do.

1:34:15I guess like women just fucking hate me. I'm just going to sit over here. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Do not. We cannot lose their attention. And I think this message is important. Yeah.

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1:36:01SoFi Checking and Savings is offered through SoFi Bank and a member FDIC Terms Apply. You said that not going to Trump's inauguration was an act of getting even more comfortable saying no, regardless of what people think, which was so powerful because as women, that's how we're trained. People, please say yes at all costs. has getting comfortable with saying no changed your perspective about your very famous line when they go low we go high and do you think that the message still applies given the enormity of what women are up against today yeah i you know i in the light i tried to I tackled that question.

1:36:48Do we still go high? And I start by saying what going high means to me is getting to the solution. It's outcome determinative. What is our strategic goal? Um, and going high means that we are working strategically towards that goal with a plan and some objectives and, and it's not purely emotional, right? That doesn't mean that emotions don't exist because they do. I do feel anger. I do feel pain and hurt. But if my anger is leading and it doesn't work, then what's, what are we doing? Now I'm just indulging myself. Now I'm just having a tantrum, you know? And some people want that. They're like, I want to see you have the tantrum that I want to have, right?

1:37:48I was like, but if the tantrum is not going to work, then what is the point? And when you're a leader, in my mind, you should have a point other than self-indulgence, you know, indulging your anger, right? Because we can get lost in that. So going high to me is feel the feelings, but where are you trying to go with them and let that lead? That's what going high is, thinking before you talk. I mean, we teach our kids that. I mean, that's what it is. It's like count to 10, you know, because like how I feel at the kitchen table, like that's what the kitchen table is for. Like get all that out. Say all the things you want to say and then look at it and say, is that how you really feel?

1:38:36because usually after you step back a little bit and it's like, yeah, well, I would take that out. And I said all of them and always. I used a lot of absolutes. That's not true. Now that I'm on 10, so let me refine that a little bit. Let me take that. And then you'll find out that half the stuff you threw out there in anger isn't even true. And it's not how you really feel. So now you should go out and communicate what you really feel really clearly that you think will, that's what going high is. So yeah, I think we should always be trying to go high. And I think as anybody with a platform, a powerful platform, it's a responsibility, right?

1:39:21Because that platform is powerful. Like the word you say, move people. And you can move them to productivity, or you can move them to division. You can move them to hate. It is like anybody with a platform can do that. So now we now have a responsibility. If you want the platform, then be, it's like a gun, like learn how to use it, put the safety lock on, you know, because you can cause a lot of damage, but you can also do a lot of good, you know? And that's what going high means. And yes, I still think that, but have the feelings. You know, I'm not telling people that you're feeling, just like us as women.

1:40:15Yes, it's not fair. It sucks. The standards are double. We're killing ourselves. We're inundated with messages that are wrong. Feel that. Don't feel like you're crazy for feeling it. Wrong is wrong. Bad is bad. And going high doesn't mean to ignore that. And we need to feel those feelings to act. But how we act on those feelings is the going high part, is my point. Michelle, I need to hang out with you more. Okay. Wow. I'm just like, I'm going to like watch that back every day, what you just said. Holy shit. I want to ask you about a recent comment you made about a female presidency. You said, don't even look at me about running because you all are lying.

1:41:16You're not ready for a woman. You're not. As a country, what do we need to do to be ready? Like, what is it going to take? Look, we've come a long way, you know, and what my husband has said. and I agree with, change takes time and context matters, right? 50 years ago, we were fighting for the Equal Rights Bill. There are people alive today that couldn't marry the opposite race, couldn't love who you loved. I mean, this is recent history of a country that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's been going along this way and then there's a little change. It just happened. But that means that the remnants of what has been there and what we've been socialized is really deeply embedded in who we are.

1:42:23And whether people really feel yet that they can follow a woman as president, we would just be silly to think that there aren't just some gut kind of, I don't know. We're not even analyzing what those feelings are about because we're trying to pretend like it's all better. And I just think, well, how could it be all better? I mean, we've been feeding off of this bone for so long. It doesn't just go away. It takes time. But we're moving. We are moving in that direction. So that statement was, there was the humor of it, like, stop looking at me. So it's also my wry humor. It's like, Like, come on, people.

1:43:11There were people who, there are men out there that were not going to vote for a woman. People have had those conversations, right? Let's just be real about it. And let's put that on the table and talk about, well, what's that about? Let's not be mad because I made the statement. Let's look at the fact that we've had two really qualified female candidates. It's one who was first lady, secretary of state, well-educated, you know, my husband beat her, right? People were more comfortable with him as a newcomer, right? And now we just had the former vice president. You know, we've had qualified women and they just, you know, again, if they're not perfect and they don't cross every T and dot every I, there's a falling shortness that is happening that I, you know, I'd say, look, well, why can't we talk about that?

1:44:12Why are we pretending that that didn't just happen? I want to also just let you know, I agree with you, Michelle. I agree with you. My question back to everyone who's like, oh, no, we're ready. It's like, how could a woman hold the highest seat in the government when she has less rights than half the population? Yeah. Yeah. How would that even be? How would that work? We don't have legally equal rights to men. How would a woman sit above men? Like it does. We're not there. And so there were some people even within the Democratic Party that disagreed with your statement publicly. People came out and just said, you know, just because we didn't like the candidates, that doesn't mean we aren't ready for a woman.

1:44:53um well i hope so like yeah great you know and look that mean that doesn't mean that women should roll up their sleeves and call it a day you know um like we're still growing you know so yeah i think it's gonna happen uh are we ready now i don't know let prove prove us wrong i would love love that, right? Michelle, if this incentivized everyone to prove us wrong, I'd be like, oh my God. It's like, all right. And I'll be the first to be like, you're right. You're right. Stupid statement. My bad, my bad. We're like, we pissed them off so much. They're like, no, we'll show you. Yeah, they're like, ooh, let do that.

1:45:34Please. And look, for all the young women that we're talking to, keep, keep climbing. If you want to be president of the United States, doggone it, then yes. Yes, you can, right? So yeah, this isn't about slowing down. We keep fighting and growing and developing and evolving and learning what happened there. Why didn't that work? But let's really talk about it because it hasn't worked. We've had women governors.

1:46:09We just really great candidates. So let's figure out what's going on. And in the meantime, what I'm telling all young girls is keep going, y 'all. Go to college, get your education, continue to build those skills, continue to be good, be kind to yourself, go into politics. I am not a politician. That was also the other point. It's just a reminder. He's like, I am not a politician, not interested in it. It's not who I want to be. But I do want a lot of young people, a lot of young girls. I want those who want to do it. We need you. We need you to want to be that. So don't take that message as you can't.

1:46:57You should keep trying, keep throwing the opportunity in this country's face. you know and but just be strong in it and know that you may come up short because maybe we are maybe we aren't but keep going well it's like our whole conversation today i think we're again there's so much to do for women to get to that place where we are ready um okay this is i mean let me know if you'll answer this one i'm just gonna try okay let's have a little fun okay Okay. I'm talking about the future here. So the future is whatever we want it to be. Okay. So if, this is all hypothetical, if Trump does change the law and ruds for a third term, hypothetically, do you think your husband would consider running?

1:47:52I hope not. I would actively work against that. you know, the whole world starts crying. I would really, I wouldn't be, I would be at home working against it, you know, and maybe a lot of people be like, good, we don't want them anyway. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I, right. Okay. So you're like not interested. You know, I, I do believe in the need for new vision, right? I mean, the, the two terms is not just about, we like him and we want it. It's just like the, we're changing and growing so fast this is a hard job and it it requires new energy new new vision all the time new ways of looking at the world right so i do believe that eight years is enough like you know so and there's so many talented people out there like why why would we keep going with the same people you know um i I would be a proponent for how and how are we going to build young leaders if the same people keep doing it again and again and again?

1:49:03You know, now's your turn. Now it's my turn. Now you did it again. I'll do it again. And it's like and there's all these young, smart people who are just looking outside with their ideas as leaders get older and older. You know, the older you get, the just you just live a different life as an older, established person. And I think there's room for that wisdom, but there's room for new ideas to come in. You know, so I am, I think two terms is enough for everybody, you know, and it's not a question of what order. It's just like, we've heard and experienced your ideas. This country is constantly evolving.

1:49:43What are the next thoughts? People with a new set of experiences, a new set of, a new take on the world. this new generation is coming up they travel more they know more about the world they're exposed in a different way like i i am really really curious about their perspectives on how to fix some of this stuff like we don't have all the answers and that's okay that's why we move on yeah it's a great point it's a really great point um to close this out yeah two more questions yeah i want to end on a message of hope because this is it's heavy stuff, but it's like in order to change, in order to grow, we have to have hope.

1:50:27We have to believe that there is room to move forward. So first, what advice do you have to women listening who feel scared and angry about the current state of things and where we are headed as a country? Oh, it goes back to something that I have said throughout this conversation that we have to be mindful of the context of where we are. And even this time feels difficult, I would argue, because we've had a lot of unfettered growth, right? This has been a unique time of just no war. There's been no Great Depression. I mean, if you look at the history of the country, this little period, it's been not free of a lot of problems, right?

1:51:30But it's been a real, it's been a continued shot upward. And now we're kind of leveling off a little bit, maybe a dip here or there, and that feels scary. but as Barak said, the arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice. It means that you don't get to the place in a straight direct route, that there are bends and curves along the way. And we may be in a time where we're experiencing a bit of a bend, a bit of a dip, but we're still moving forward. And that is true. That's not like, that's factual, right? as Barack says all the time, if you could pick any time in human history to be alive, when you think of disease and poverty and science and equality and openness and access, would you pick any other time to be alive than right now?

1:52:33I know I wouldn't knowing what, We can fantasize about Hogwarts and I don't even know what time that took place because that's not a real story. I do fantasize about it, but you know. But there was a lot of stuff that was broken that we didn't have, that we didn't learn, and we've learned it now. And we're struggling to get to that next phase, but that struggle doesn't mean that we're not making progress. The other thing that I will say is like I, my experiences throughout my life, particularly as First Lady, I have seen this country up close. I really have been to many towns and communities, mourned losses, been on military bases, you know, been in homeless shelters, have seen great joys and great pains.

1:53:28but rarely am I disappointed as a whole with who we are as a people. That is my experience because I've gotten to be out there in a way that most people, let alone most Americans, don't. We live in our little corners of the world. We live on our blocks in our neighborhoods. That's how we are. We're humans. We are packed. We live in our small tribes. That's how we are, and we don't know about other tribes, right? We know what we know. I've had the chance to experience other tribes and I don't care what your political affiliation, what religion, we're all really, we really are wanting and moving towards the same thing.

1:54:16You know, we wanna live in communities where we get along. You know, we want our kids to be safe and have a good education. We want them to maybe be a little bit better off than we were, but people aren't fundamentally greedy. My father was a working class guy. He never wanted to be a millionaire. He never wanted to be a tech giant or an influencer. You know what my dad was, which was like most men, black, white, blue, green. He wanted to be able to pay his bills and feed his kids and take care of his family and maybe have health care. He wasn't competing to be the richest of the rich. In fact, he was like, you can have that.

1:54:59That seems complicated, right? I'm good. To me, that's most Americans. And we can get there because most people don't want that much, but we do have to support each other. We do have to protect one another and we have to have policies and principles that protect the greater good. And I think with the right leadership, we're right there. When it doesn't feel fair, people aren't happy. They don't feel comfortable watching other people's pain. I know that about this country. It's just a question of how do we get out of this? And it's complicated. And we like answers that are quick and easy. But most of the stuff is really, really hard.

1:55:47And it takes some time. I don't know if that's hopeful but to me it is it is it is all possibility it is hopeful I think it's it's what we needed to hear because I agree with the immediacy everyone now is looking for such the answer immediately or else they're just like so we're doomed it's over and I didn't work yeah and I think my last question when I was thinking about that is yes at first I was kind of talking about women, but like... And our world does feel or our country does feel very divided today. That's a fact, right? Some people, we can't even look at each other anymore. And the hate and disgust and vitriol, it's so bitter.

1:56:36The divide is so big, it almost feels unfixable. and sometimes i think it feels like we've turned away from seeing people's humanity that it almost feels like to the point that we've off like almost lost our own humanity because we can't relate we can't see even if we are divided on what side we're on and so to leave us with this i guess and i know it's you'd be like well do you have 10 hours but in in the opposite of what you Can you, though, somehow explain in your opinion how you think we begin to repair not only what we have lost, but create a new future that is actually inclusive, equal and respectful of each other?

1:57:29Because right now it does not feel like we are close to that. And don't you get a sense that people are not content in that? Yeah. Right. So let's, you know, I think more people are starting to be outspoken about it and realizing, is this what we, you know, and a lot of people are like, I didn't sign up for this. That is us speaking. That is us, you know, that's our real hearts kind of coming to the fold. I'd like to think, you know, it, you know, didn't happen right away, but it's not like it's been a long, long time. we don't we're not like I just if everybody looks inside this isn't what we wanted we want parts of it there's some things we want that mix didn't work but this I don't think we're we're happy in this state and I think that's a good sign you know I mean if if everybody were like yeah I'm good yeah I feel great Merry Christmas right I mean maybe I'd be like okay right but But, you know, I'm assuming in your conversations, people are starting to really, we're figuring out what is it that we do want.

1:58:43You know, we were defining a lot. I don't want that. And I don't want that. But the work is, well, what do we want? And I do think, I don't think that this young generation wants to go back, have less freedoms, less possibilities of who they can be in the world, who they can marry, who they can love, who's in and who's out. You know, I just think we've come too far to go that far back. That's what, that's, that's what I, I have faith and I'm choosing to have faith. you know um and so that those are choices and now for all our listeners it's like now we've got to do the work to look inside and figure out the parts of this that are working and what is it we have to really start having conversations about that um that that's hard to do at a time when you know our our algorithms are feeding us what we want to hear but now we know that Now we're aware.

1:59:46It's like, okay, you can't just get your information from your phone or your TikTok because it's feeding you yourself. And so if you want to learn something else, you may have to talk to people. We may have to start coming out of our phones and back into communities. And we have to give each other the benefit of the doubt. Takes a little time because we've been so mad. But it hasn't been that long. It hasn't been that long. so we we can remember what it felt like when we felt more connected it's such a great point and i think i think that's why i just was so excited to talk to you today because i feel like especially understandably young people i think have just like an aversion to politics right now it's just like oh my god it's all this like marketing and propaganda and like oh and then again with social media, we've lost the way where we don't really know who to follow right now.

2:00:41We don't know who to listen to right now. And so that goes back to the beginning of this interview to close it out. It's like, I knew that we could have fun. I know you're funny. And I know we would have a good time, Michelle. Okay, trust me. It's like round two, you'll come back again one day. But it's like, we could have fun. But we needed you. I needed to hear from you. And we needed to absorb this right now because I just felt it. And I try to have such a pulse with my audience on what they're needing. And I felt this. It's like going into this new year, we need this fresh perspective. And so I genuinely cannot thank you enough for gracing me with your time.

2:01:20I know you are beyond busy. But no, but let me let me say, Alex, that part of the solution are folks like you young. You're still, to me, you're young, you're a baby. And it's like, proud baby, way to go.

2:01:36But you've evolved and you're building, you understand the power that you have to have different conversations. And you've got this amazing audience, they love you. They're intrigued by you and there's a reason for that. So that's power. And now you're in the power seat. So what do you do with that? How do you take what you've learned or you're learning and you know about the folks who follow you and help them see more and see things differently? And you're doing just that. People are listening, right? They may come in for the burger, but they leave with a carrot, a carrot of wisdom. And that's because you're choosing to really think about your platform and modeling something new, and that's what it's all about.

2:02:37Look, I love talking to people, but I also don't want to be talking to people forever. It's like your generation, it's time for you all to sit in these seats and get right what we didn't get right. And it's OK for us to admit that our generation, we figured a lot of stuff out, but we didn't fix it. And that's not what the it's a it's a marathon. It's a relay race. I'm passing the baton to you, my friend. And you can do it. maybe a couple more side conversations just to like give me a little bit more we'll stay in touch but i am i am uh proud of what what you you're building and how you're using um your your space and that's that's gonna make a difference so keep doing what you're doing this has been so much fun and i'll talk to barack and make sure that you know make next time i come and, you know, does he want to talk about option one?

2:03:45Barack, option one. The headlines from this cannot be as crazy as what option one would be. So anything you're stressed about PR-wise, babe, don't worry. It'll be fine. Me and Agnes were right there. Michelle Obama, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It was an honor having you on Call or Dot. It's great spending time with you. Thank you for having me. And more to come. More to come. More to come.

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