My Friends Make Me Feel Like Shit

0:02What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call her daddy. Dr. Miriam Kermeyer, welcome back to Call Her Daddy. Thanks for having me back. This is great. To remind everyone, you are a clinical psychologist and friendship expert. And the last time we spoke, we had so much to discuss. And my listeners were like, can you please, please, please give us more on friendship? This is seriously a problematic area in my life. We need help. So we are just going to do another episode and we're going to keep going on it. Let's do it. So friendships come in various forms. From your experience, what are the different types of friendships that people may have in their life?

0:50Yeah. Well, this is kind of how we ended off our conversation last episode, right? We were talking a little bit about this idea of friendship types or friendship tiers. And there's actually different ways to look at this. And so I'm curious to know your experience here too. we can look at different types of friendship in terms of levels of closeness right so we can say i have acquaintances i have true friends i have close friends i have a best friend and that's definitely something that i think resonates with a lot of us in terms of our experience when we look at our social networks right and the research in this area even typically uses that type of a classification system when we're talking about it but there's another way to look at it as well which are the different types of people that I have in my life, right?

1:40And that's where we start to see ideas like childhood friends, right? Come into the picture, lifelong friends versus newer friends, more activity centered friends, right? People that I do things with, but I might not open up to them about some of the challenges that I'm having in my life, or those friends can be very context specific, let's say. So there's different ways that we can look at it. And yeah, let's get into it.

2:24Sometimes if you are really focused, let's say like when I was living in New York City and I had gone out of really bad breakup and none of my childhood best friends were living in the city at the time. And so I started to acquire a lot of these like party friends. And at the time I was like misinterpreting those relationships as these fulfilling friendships because I had no one to go out with at the time. I was like in a really toxic relationship that when I got out of it, all of his friends and my friends were really his friends when we first started dating. And so I lost a lot of friends. And so I had to kind of like come up with my new friend group system.

3:03And so these people were really just like a distraction on the weekends and we would, we would only hang out when we were drinking. But in my mind, like I started to like kind of blur the lines between like, are these actually my friends? Like, would they even be there for me if something was going on with my family? Or would they even be there for me if like I lost my job and I wasn't the call her daddy girl anymore. Like there were certain things that I started to have revelations of just through little moments of like texting someone on maybe a Sunday of wanting to go get a walk. And like, they're not answering me because they just want to drink instead of like having a normal relationship.

3:36So like, I think sometimes we can look at relationships, especially in our twenties, as we're trying to figure out our life and where we are at in terms of like our needs. And then sometimes we try to force friendships into certain like holes of like what works for us when really the reality is, what is that fulfilling in your life? A lot of times you have to be realistic about how you feel about the friendship rather than what it's gonna, what you want it to do for you. I was just gonna say, I think you touched on a really important idea there, which is this idea of the needs that our friendships fulfill.

4:11Because one of the themes that I definitely hear and can relate to as well is this idea of comparing relationships. And not to say comparing the people in your life, although we can get into that too, right? But comparing the different types of friendships that we have in terms of, is there a better type of friendship to have? Or do I need a best friend? And that's something that we were talking a little bit about last episode as well, right? And the mindset shift here that I think is so important is to recognize that just as friendship is a non-negotiable, we really do need friends in our lives.

4:44We also need different types of people in our lives. And once we can kind of get to that place, then it allows room for multiple people to exist and for us to take the pressure off some of those connections because we're no longer dependent on one person to meet all of our connection needs. Yeah. Can we talk about that a little more? Because my next question I wanted to ask, like, why is it so helpful and so important to have different type of levels to friendship and different friendships? Yeah. So yeah, I love this question. There are a few key reasons. The first is, frankly, our sense of self, our worth, our, you know, individuality, in many ways, that's affirmed by the people that we surround ourselves with, right?

5:30We're able to express different parts of ourself with different people. You know, I remember I'm thinking personally now, I, one of my very first high school boyfriends made a comment at some point, it really stuck with me, said something like, you know, you're different, you're, you act differently when you're with different people. And at the time I was very insulted. I was like, what are you talking about? I am who I am. And I, you know, I feel good about that. And then looking back, I actually have a different view of that. I actually think, you know, so long as we feel very secure in who we are and we know who we are, that's okay that we're allowed to express different parts of ourselves with the different people in our lives.

6:07There are some people that we're able to go, you know, on adventures with and be a little bit more gregarious with. There's other people with whom we're just a little bit more reserved and professional and that works, right? So partly it's about expressing the different parts of ourself and allowing there to be an outlet for that. The other piece though, is that it's very much protective for the different friendships that we have in our lives, right? When we can kind of diversify our friendship network, so to speak, then our individual friendships tend to be much healthier. Because again, we aren't consistently relying on one person, not only to meet all the different needs that we have, but to help us meet, you know, a certain level of emotional intimacy, so to speak.

6:52And it can just be really freeing in that way. Yeah. I love that you're talking about the boyfriend saying that to you, because I agree at first I would be like, excuse me, like, what are you talking about? like, fuck you. No, I'm not. But I think it's so true where, again, when I now look back to that relationship that I had with those people in New York, I'm so grateful to them because what I also was needing at that time in my life was some reprieve of like, I wanted a social life. I wanted to go have fun. I wanted to have a group of people that I could just socialize with. And honestly, I realized that had I, I kind of stopped talking to my really, really close friends because I was so embarrassed about what happened to me with this ex-boyfriend.

7:34And I realized, oh, let me pick up the phone and call my childhood best friend and tell her what's going on. And then I'm not going to feel so depressed when I'm out and drinking with these people and socializing because that's the need that I need filled there. I should be able to have fun and be fun, Alex, and party and drink and take shots and like have a great social life with these people. But probably these aren't the people also that like know me well enough that I would even want maybe their advice in terms of like the relationship I was just ending with. So it's like you have to also I think sometimes we have this idea that friends can fit all and that's just not what it is because we meet people in different environments.

8:14We have different needs. They have different needs. And so I agree it's so healthy when you can have like a very different balance. But do you think there are any negative consequences to having different levels of friendships? Yeah, let's, let's think about this. So negative consequences, the way I like to think about that word consequences is to ask, is there a problem here or the potential for a problem when it comes to my own well-being, my own mental health, my own physical safety in some cases, right? Or is there the potential for negative consequences about the friendship? And I mean, in both of those cases, the answer can be yes.

8:59I mean, what we see is we know that if we don't feel fulfilled, if we feel lonely, especially when it's more chronic, if we feel disconnected, if we feel unsatisfied in our connections, there are very real consequences to our mental health and our physical wellbeing. I mean, there's a lot of interesting research coming out every day on this showing that our friendships and our need for connection is actually one of the strongest predictors of how happy and healthy we are and how long we live, more so than things like diet, like exercise, even genetics in some situations. When you think about consequences of it, can it be stressful or there can be negative things?

9:37I think what it is, it's same thing in romantic relationship, which is most of the time, two people are not on the same page. Exactly, exactly. And this is that interpersonal piece, right? There's the potential for consequences when expectations are not aligned. when we are looking for something in that friendship that that person is not able to give us and sometimes just not able to give us at that point in life right but when the kind of expectation and reality of that friendship are not aligned that is a significant source of distress personally and of course can have consequences for the friendship and lead to conflict and and uh distance and in some cases dissolution the breakup of a friendship do you have people come in And like, I'm curious, like you were, I'm thinking about someone naturally would want to ask the question of like my best, best friend recently, let's say someone saying is like, I give them so much of my time and they give me so much of theirs, but I just have never felt like as an equal dynamic.

10:34I feel like I'm so much more invested in their life and I'm so much more willing to give them good advice. And like, I just feel like half the time she's half listening to me. Like, how does someone without getting mad at the other person, because really it is about like looking inward, like how do you always help people navigate when a best friend situation feels very imbalanced? Yeah. Well, I think that idea of looking inward is, again, the place to start here because all we have control over is ourselves. Right. And so if we can start by asking, okay, what is the need that's not being met here?

11:11Can I get clarity there? Is it about, it seems like there's an imbalance in terms of the time we devote to talking about each of our lives, or I'm putting way more effort into this friendship, even though the other person seems really willing to get together, I'm always the initiator. The two choices we really have is, well, three choices. One is we can just continue with the status quo. And truthfully, this is what most people choose, right? Because we're afraid of being assertive for a number of reasons, because we have these ridiculous expectations about our friendships that our friends should just know what we're thinking and feeling or because we shouldn't be assertive in our friendships.

11:45So that's one option. And it's often the option I advise against, although, of course, you can continue to do that, right? Next option is to actually say something, to label it. And again, being curious, I'm noticing this. What is this like for you? Is there something going on? Very often there might be something going on in our friend's life that has nothing to do with us. Or maybe they just have a different need and threshold for that type of intimacy in a friendship. And so it didn't occur to them that we might need something more or something different. So having a conversation can be very helpful.

12:17The other piece here, though, that can be really helpful in some situations, and this is, again, where the idea of context is so important, but for some people, my advice is actually to scale back and not to do that in a passive-aggressive way, right? But to ask ourselves, well, why am I giving so much, right? Because one way to restore the balance is to encourage the other person to do more, but we can also create a bit more balance by scaling back. And again, that's not withholding respect or love or attention and effort, but really just dialing it back to a level where things feel a little bit more balanced.

12:54Because one of the themes that comes up very often is this belief that I need to be in giving mode in order to feel connected to people or in order to have people stay in my life, right? And so if we can chip away at that idea, not only do we have a lot more energy to devote to our other relationships and friendships, we can restore the balance and end up feeling much, much, much more secure in the friendship. I love that advice so much because I also understand it's obviously so hard to do, but I feel like I bet there's so many people listening to this today that are going to feel like shit. Like I definitely am the one that's always going to my friend and I feel really negative and I almost feel resentful towards my friend now.

13:37And you have to look at a daddy gang like, well, wait, why are you putting in such an effort if someone else isn't putting in the effort? and I get it also if there was something like serious that recently happened like maybe you know your friend went through something and they're depressed and so you're trying to like keep on them to allow them to know like I'm not leaving I'm here for you like there are certain situations where I understand like going to your friend to show support is different I'm just talking about the day-to-day if you're like Stacy never calls me and I'm always going to her house and I'm always the one initiating I love the advice of stepping back because at the end of the day.

14:11It's like what my mom said when I was growing up, she would always be like, why would you want to be friends with someone that doesn't want to be friends with you? And I know it hurts, but it's like, why are you going to give someone so much more energy if they're showing you what they want the dynamic to be? How much more impactful for your happiness if you can then go find someone? It doesn't mean you don't have to be friends with that person, but you can now go find someone that's going to meet you there and hold your needs because there are definitely other friends that would love to sit and talk for hours about what they're going through.

14:42Or there are some friends that would love whatever your need is, there's going to be another person. You just have to recognize the person in front of you is not meeting you where you're at and you keep trying. Maybe stop trying so hard. Yeah, no, that's exactly it. It's not about having unmet needs and just being okay with that, right? It's about asking ourselves, well, how can I have this need met? Because this clearly isn't working. And again, I want to depersonalize that, right? Very often, that's not a reflection of you. That's a reflection of the other person's capacity for intimacy or the amount of time that they have to devote to their friendships during the week or something else entirely.

15:18But when you can depersonalize that, it can be very freeing and open up space to actually have that need met in a way that's going to preserve both friendships, right? It potentially deepens the other connection with that new person you're reaching out to and takes a little bit of the pressure off that initial friendship that probably will benefit from that if you're already feeling that dynamic. It's such a good point. Do you think it's beneficial to have a friend group or do singular friendships serve the same purpose? Yeah. I have to say this is one of the number one themes that comes up when I'm talking about friendship or doing any kind of speaking engagement, even working with clients, this idea that our friendships and friend groups in particular should look a certain way, right?

16:05And I lump the belief that we need a best friend in this category too. But second to that is this idea of I need the friend group. What we see is this, having again, different people who meet our different friendship needs, that can be just as beneficial as having the core friend group. So you're not, you know, necessarily missing out on any of those kind of psychological benefits or health benefits even to having connection in your life. The difficulty is that this is an experience that people really want and crave and perhaps had in the past, right? When we think back to high school or college days, maybe we had that.

16:49Maybe it's harder the older we get because it is because of course. And so I think there also needs to be space to kind of just accept and process that, in some sense, grief, right? And that sense of loss that can be there. The other piece that is true is when you have people who are part of a common group, it can make it easier to stay connected, right? Because the responsibility of making plans, reaching out, sending something in the group chat, that responsibility is shared. And so it does take off a little bit of the pressure and the energy that's needed to maintain our connections. And so there is a benefit in that sense.

17:28The flip side of that is that there are also more opportunities for conflict when there are multiple people involved. And so it's not necessarily as rosy as it might seem and certainly not as perfect as it appears on social media. I love that you're saying that because I write as you were about right when you said it is easier when you can to stay connected. I was about to say, I'm like, when I think back to high school or college, you're immediately put into these friend groups that it's just by proximity. And it's just by that you're all in the same place in your life. And it's just like half the time, it's like, would you really be in that friend group in your twenties?

18:04Maybe not, but it's there and it's easy. And I also think it allows for people to not actually invest as much in those individual relationships, like you said, because it is easier to just, oh, we're all going here. Well, when's the last time you like individually went to a lunch with one of those people in the friend group? Probably not, which again is fine, but I do just want to make people feel better that maybe I think it's really hard in your twenties and your thirties and your forties and so on to maintain friend groups because then people's lives start to drastically change just with regard to like, maybe people start having kids maybe people are getting married like there's just everyone starts to go in a different trajectory and the pacing is much different and so having friend groups and proximity and jobs and relocations it all starts to spread everyone out and it's normal and I think if you're struggling today being like I miss my friend group that is normal and that is a nostalgia for the like schooling that we were brought up in and you're constantly with people your same age going through the same thing as you but I agree though it's like yeah but then you can't get really as close with people in times and it is sometimes a freaking disaster so there's always pros and cons but something I was going to ask you when I was thinking about how we kind of talked about like we can't expect one friendship to meet all of our needs but what if someone is like listening today and is like, Miriam, I feel like all of my friendships, I'm just constantly being let down.

19:40Like every friendship I have, I'm just unfulfilled. Like I don't feel happy. Like what could you maybe, instead of having them talk about how they're unfulfilled by other friendships, like, do you know anything maybe internally or they can personally work on? Cause a lot of times it's like, well, what's going on with you? Yes, exactly. I mean, and this does happen right and it can happen to different degrees sometimes it's that we find ourselves in friendships and frankly all of them just feel unhealthy or you know i'm using air quotes now toxic because i think we need to dismantle a little bit how we use that word but but there can be certainly that felt experience of like these this is just not healthy sometimes it's a little bit more subtle right it's this feeling of yeah i have these people in my life and I appreciate them, but I'm still feeling unsatisfied.

20:29My advice here is firstly, again, get that clarity. Okay. What is missing? Can I label it? Meaning, is there a part of me that I'm not sharing that I don't feel is being affirmed or seen? And do I need to show up differently in my friendships? Do I need to be more vulnerable and more open about what's really going on, both in terms of the shitty things that are happening in my life and also the really fucking amazing things that are happening because maybe that's what's missing. Maybe I want to be celebrated because that too is what we experience in our friendships, right? So do I need to take responsibility to really show up in a different way?

21:05That's a possibility. Another possibility is who am I letting into my life, right? And we talk a lot about the energy that you're putting out there and who you're attracting. And that's certainly a part of it, right? Who is attracted to you? What is the kind of, yeah, energy and overall feel that you're putting out there? But it's not just about who comes to you. It's who you let in and who you let stay. That to me is the most important piece. And for many people, this is rooted in different types of insecurity, right? About our worth, almost like a scarcity mindset too of, okay, well, I don't love this friend group.

21:45But if I let go of these people, then how am I ever going to start again in my twenties and my thirties where it's harder to meet people. And I'd rather have these shitty friends than no friends, right? Or I'd rather be feeling a little bit lonely than terribly lonely. And so I think that scarcity mindset is also really at play for many people. And as a therapist, obviously starting to take a look at those beliefs and working to reframe those in a different way can actually have profound implications on our connection in our current relationships and our ability to make new ones. Oh my God. I feel like that needs to just like be on repeat for everyone forever listening to that.

22:23That's so helpful. I took a lot from that listening. I'm like, oh wow. I think a lot of times, yeah, you have to look at like, why am I, I think a lot of times we can outgrow friends. And I think that people feel like, oh my God, did I do something wrong? Did they do something wrong? Like not all friendships have to end in this like big animosity war, this blowout fight, like who you are maybe, or who you were when you were in college. And now you have this job or you're in a serious relationship. Like people change and, and change is so good. And, and it's okay if you both change and you're such different people now, because it's like, you had that person in your life for a reason, but maybe you don't need to be as close and it doesn't need to be like, we can never talk again.

23:07this relationship is over. Like, I think people get really wrapped up in the idea of like friendship and how to navigate when you're feeling like, maybe I want to pull away. Like it can get really daunting and scary because friendship also can kind of have a huge toll on yourself worth at the time of like, if I don't have friends, who am I? And I love what you're saying of like, sometimes you have to recognize like, why are you so insecure to like, maybe be without friends for a little bit. Like maybe you're going through something. Maybe you aren't a good friend right now. Maybe that's why you're having, like, I had a conversation with a friend recently of like, she was like, I really want friends.

23:46Like, I feel like I, you know, she was in a toxic relationship and she's looking for new friends. And I was like, listen to me, I so hear you and you're going to get there, but are you ready to be a friend back? Or do you want someone to just listen to your problems? Cause that's why you're in therapy girl. So it's like realizing it takes too. And so don't be mad if someone else can't give, but also recognize, are you even giving into a friendship? Are you your best self? Because sometimes we need to pause and be like, I'm really going through it. I can imagine it's annoying as hell to listen to me right now.

24:17Like I just need some time and that's okay. Well, and this is again, where I think that idea of levels or tiers of friendship is so important because maybe you're at a point in your life where jumping into a really intimate friendship doesn't make sense because there isn't the time there you can't really think of who that person would be. But that doesn't mean that you still don't need to feel connected in that moment. And that doesn't mean that you can't still benefit from seeking out acquaintances, right? Or more of those friendships of convenience, as we call them. And so I think that no matter where we're at, we do need to feel connected, but we do need to take ownership over what we have the capacity for in that moment.

24:57Yeah. I think to some people listening, people will relate to this because I don't know why this just popped into my head, but I think there's sometimes in friendships that there's a friend, maybe let's say that is like the cool girl and someone listening is friends with this person, but like kind of never feels good around this person, but also does feel good because they feel cool when they're hanging out with this person. But it's always about the other person. It's always about their life. And like, you're almost just feeling like you're in this person's shadow. And maybe you've been friends with this person since high school or college.

25:34And they've always been like the cool, hot chick that you're like, I love hanging out with her. But you just never feel great about yourself. And so I'm wondering if you have any advice for someone that's kind of like in that weird dynamic where they semi feel fulfilled because status wise it brings them such fulfillment to just at least be in the rooms that this person gets to go into. But on the other side, it's like, how do you actually feel? And how does this person make you feel? And it's actually pretty shitty. Yeah. Well, and I think that that is the crucial question when we're talking about loneliness and healthy connection is how do I feel?

26:09How do I feel when I'm with this person before I spend time with this person after we spend a night going out together? How do I feel? It sounds so simple, but rarely do we take the time to really ask ourselves that question. And if we really lean into that and are truthful with ourselves, very often we find our answer there, right? The other piece to really keep in mind is that people differ in terms of how much they're seeking status or popularity, and that potentially becomes less important as we age, right? Although not always. But what I can say is that that is not a road to connection. That is something different.

26:48And if that's a value of yours, that's okay that that's a value of yours. But that's independent from connection. And you still are going to need other meaningful friendships in your life. And the last thing that I want to say here, and I think this is really interesting research that came out not too long ago, there's something called ambivalent friendships, where we feel ambivalent. There's a part of us that really values and appreciates this person and who they are and what it's like to have them in our life. And there's also a big part of us that really fucking hates that and feels really uncomfortable with that.