Nara Smith: Stop Calling Me a Tradwife

30:55It's such a good point. And I appreciate you clarifying that because I agree like it's not your job to clarify it, but it is frustrating when I think you see a woman in media who is such a good example of the double standard of like, why are we painting you in this one capacity? We're pretending like she's just slaving over her husband in the kitchen. And it's like, that's just not what it is. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you, but let's have a bigger conversation here and see what really is the issue because I'm not the issue. Something that is happening for you is the issue. So let's chat about it.

31:30It's very threatening. It's very threatening. Let's chat.

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33:32Yeah. What do you think would surprise people about how you and Lucky complement each other as parents maybe how involved he is i think there's this i don't know what it is but there's this like standard where people are like he's holding the baby he's watching the baby what do you mean he's watching his baby he's a dad of course so i think there's this like weird societal thing that's happening where it's like who's watching the baby what do you mean he has two like we're he has a dad and i think what's hard is people again really struggle like you post so much online yeah and so if you're the primary one that's like posting they somehow believe that he's not a part of certain things and it's like no guys there's like a complete other life outside of social media that people choose to not i'm very selective with what i post and how i post and how much I share of my life because I used to be a lot more open.

34:33But then the more traction my social media got, the more people came to my page, the more people like kind of piece things together that were so inaccurate to what was going on to where I kind of felt like I had to take a step back and really evaluate what I show and how much I show. Can you give an example that kind of forced you to be a little less open? There was this incident of me posting my kids. And then there was this tech talk video where someone I don't even know how they got it but they got like a story that I posted on Instagram about my daughter like a year and a half prior to me even having tech talk so I'm like where did this video come from it was an Instagram story not even an in feed post and it had millions of views and it was just her sitting on the couch and she's so cute but the comments it had like 200 ,000 likes it had like 8 ,000 comments or like so many and so many of the comments were like I can't wait for her to be older or her eyes are so pretty or look at those lips and then I'd go on the profiles and it was like old men to where I realized I'm actually doing my kids a disservice by exposing them and making them vulnerable on the internet to where I'm like okay kids are off limits so when I do work shoots with the kids like there was this skims photo shoot that we did a holiday shoot we did last year where I told the team I'm like I I would love to do a family photo shoot, but these are my boundaries.

35:53And a lot of people I work with are very understanding. Skims was so understanding about it. So accommodating. But there's just there's dangers on the Internet that I need to protect my kids from. So that was one of those experiences or just like little like books they'd see in the back or like the whole religious thing. I'm like, no, but OK, I get why you're saying that. So let me take a step back because you're actually misunderstanding things I put out. So I kind of put myself in this little bubble to where I just want to keep things that are very personal to me, personal to me. Yeah. Like I think there's been obviously such an uptick in the conversation around posting children online.

36:31And it's a really controversial one just because of the amount of evidence we're seeing of how destructive and exploitive it can be and seeing how many disgusting people are online yeah and are consuming the content in a way that you wish this is not the world that we lived in but unfortunately that is the reality and so to some degree it is the the parent's job to protect the children how have you and lucky like what is the boundary of like when to share when to not share yeah i think we kind of take it situation by situation because if vogue came knocking on my door and they were like we want you and the kids on the cover I'd be like well if my kid grows up and I say no to that would they feel like they missed out on something like I don't know they're like we definitely talk about it situation by situation but when it comes to social media and social media content no kids faces I don't want them being recognized I don't want anything so I just they're a part of my life so obviously they can be a part of my content but then it's just them running around or whatever to not see their face so I feel like I'm still navigating kind of how to what to show and what not to show because I I care about my community and I love that we're all in this together and that people like show up and support and like I've really built a close relationship with my community to where I feel like I really want you guys to see as much of my life as you can but then also I know that I have to set boundaries because if I don't then what are you gonna do yeah it's also so hard it's so interesting you're saying this because I you know I was talking to someone recently about it and the conversation around sharing your children online I'm like it's so crazy to me though that the people who don't you see a lot of women get like oh she must be a bad mother like we never see her with her kid and I'm like I'm already ready for that for me because I'm like oh my god people are gonna be like she's never with her kid I'm like no no I don't post my kid yeah there's a very different but again if it's like they don't see it then they don't believe it yeah that's that's kind of been an ongoing thing it's like oh where are your kids what are you doing like lucky never he's never with his kids i'm like if i were to turn this camera around you would see four screaming kids and lucky trying to wrangle them all but i'm i'm not sparing you and all you see is me and my pretty dress making skittles okay because we're just keeping it for the brand And we're uploading a video that you want to see.

39:08Right. Enjoy. Right. Talking about motherhood and family, what is something from your own childhood that you are intentionally wanting to replicate? I think the curiosity. I feel like growing up, I was always very encouraged to be curious and ask about things and understand how things work and be knowledgeable about things. My dad was very German growing up. He would play this game with us where he'd get a globe. It would light up like a world globe and he would spin the globe and then he'd like stop it. And then he'd like point to this. He's like, what is this country? What's the capital? How many people live there?

39:47And we do that was like art like he would not chase us around the yard. He would do that with us or he would get me this like really thick. I remember it was a thick purple velvet just book about Greek mythology. and he would like quiz me on it or like a book about Marie Antoinette. And I was like, what, six or seven. So I think just that knowledge and that curiosity, it's made me very aware of things. And like, I've always had this like deep feeling of just, but why? Why are we doing this? Why are you saying these things to me? Like, what's the bigger message? And I want my kids to like really have that understanding of the world and like really dig deep when it comes to things.

40:28I don't want them to be followers. I want them to be leaders, strong leaders. Have you noticed at all, because I know they're young, but like, have you noticed any of them having that same curiosity that you have? Oh, Rumble, my five-year-old, she's exactly like me. I'm like, tone it down a little bit. Wait, you're like, hold on. Yeah, it's really funny seeing their personality slowly emerge. Rumble is like me. Slim is like Lucky, very quiet and reserved, but so smart and so brilliant. whimsy she's like our little fiery one but i she's a third she's the third i'm the third sounds like also so you get it you're just constantly pushing buttons pushing buttons but she also like no one's gonna tell her crap and she's also very aware of situations to where like if she doesn't like someone there's a reason so i'm never like be nice no you don't question her no i don't question her i know but no because she's very observant and then fanny is just nine Munchies along for the ride.

41:23We're going to figure that out. Yeah, we're going to figure out Pani soon. I'll see you later and you'll give me the update. Yes. Is there anything that you're doing differently that you're like, oh, I want to change that from my childhood? Patience. I think my parents weren't very patient. So I think just being patient and trying to really get on their level. Which from what I understand is like a huge thing for parenthood that you're like, I'm struggling. Patience. Patience. Right, before you're like, don't freak out. Just give yourself some patience. Take a deep breath. It's that word. I need to paint that everywhere in my home.

41:59No, truly. I think that's something that has been really hard for me because I'm very like, let's just do it. Let's just like, why aren't you putting on your shoes? Like, let's go. And I just really had to like take a deep breath. And I'm like, they're tiny humans. That's what I remind myself of. They're like tiny humans that haven't done a lot before. And you just need to realize that like putting yourself in the state of mind they're in. Like, of course, they're asking me why they have to go to bed because they don't know what time it is or what's going on. Sure. Patience. You know, patience.

42:31What did love look like in your house to you of like your parents?

42:36What is that base? You know, my parents have a really complicated relationship. They've always been so loving and they were the best. Well, they are were they are the best parents ever. They've taught me so much and have really grown a lot also. And now as an adult, I see them totally different. I think being married now and having kids where I might have been hurt as a teenager being like, why are you guys fighting or why are you doing this? Or now I have a lot of compassion for each of them individually and together to where I understand the choices that they've made. I understand why they did certain things.

43:17So I think my relationship with them has really changed and evolved over all these years. but yeah they didn't have the best marriage and they didn't have the best dynamic at home so a lot of a lot of things that I'm unlearning now stemmed from that but I love them so much and I have a great relationship with both of them did they stay together or did they they're still together but it was very tumultuous so you know no but I think that's interesting of like when when a lot of people grew up in a tumultuous situation with watching their parents but then there was a divorce or a separation that also can teach you to like really stick things through but like at what point is should you not right and so like I'm sure there's yeah I'm sure there's things that you're trying to figure out of like how do you handle conflict when you and lucky are fighting if you watch something very particular and specific repeated in your household there's like some unlearning that has to go on yeah and the older I get the more I realize that my parents are great parents, but when it comes to their marriage, they were not the best example for marriage whatsoever.

44:25So I think then getting married at a really young age, we got married when I was 18 and had our first baby when I was 19. So I never had a good example of how to navigate conflict, how to navigate a disagreement, how to navigate speaking my mind without feeling like I cannot, like all these things that were internal to me, not so much about my partner, right it was was never that much about my partner it was more about me and the things that I've learned and we we've gone to couples therapy I think that's a great tool I think doing therapy yourself and like really just looking I feel like being married is like a mirror like you're all of a sudden in this space where you're confronted by all the things that you may or may not be doing wrong or things that you've learned that might not be the best for you and then all of a sudden you have to work on that because elsewise your relationship will not be the way that you'd want it to be.

45:19And like thinking about that, Nara, I completely agree. And then adding on the level of having children in the midst of also trying to be, you're young, you're taking care of yourself, you're, you know, fostering your relationship with your husband. And then I know you've got four kids in five years. Yeah, my oldest is five. Yeah, yeah. In five years. Last year, you did post about struggling with postpartum anxiety. And can you just describe what those first few weeks after having your daughter and giving birth, like what were those like? Each pregnancy was so different. My first pregnancy and my first experience postpartum was like, what the heck is happening?

46:05Because I feel like we always talk about conceiving and then being pregnant and then birth. but what happens after and I think being young and maybe me I was very impulsive I'm like whatever yeah I'll have a baby um so I never really sat I never did a birthing class I've never read like a book to the end sure did I start you know those like books that you always get the like baby whatever yeah yeah yeah I got a few pages in and then I'm like whatever so I I clearly didn't really know a lot but then when I had my first baby even giving birth I'm like oh the baby's out great and then they're like okay you need to keep pushing get the placenta I'm like what placenta what are you talking about I had no idea and then postpartum you all of a sudden well I gave birth in like my midwife's office which was had a bedroom so it was like a birthing center but not really I don't know it was a room with whatever so I got sent home with this baby right after giving birth and I'm like I don't know what to do I have no idea but I'm just gonna to follow my gut.

47:07I've always been the type of person to like, I know in my gut what's right, and I know I'll know what to do. And then I had my mom-in-law there as well to help because it was during COVID, so my parents couldn't come. But that first experience was really rough. But I think I also just like kept it pushing. But then my fourth experience, and then each experience was rough in whatever way, but my fourth experience was she was a surprise baby. So we were done after our third. And then I found out I was pregnant with her and I was freaking out. I remember like everyone I called, my agent, didn't tell my parents for the longest time.

47:43I didn't really want to tell my agent, but then I'm like, I don't fit anything I need to tell her. I was at like, I was at the Schiaparelli show wearing this dress. And I just remember I flew into Paris that same morning and I was just throwing up on the way there. I'm like, I actually need to tell people. So I was terrified because I just, I don't know what that feeling was, but I just knew I was at a point in my career and in my home life where I felt very settled. And I knew what the pregnancy would do to my body and my mental and like all these things. It's almost like speaking it into existence would make it more overwhelming.

48:16Yes. So I didn't want to tell anyone, took the longest time to tell people. I truly like really just didn't think about it at all until it hit me right before she was born. I'm like, oh, I'm actually having a baby. And then like all the emotions kind of came in. And then I went into labor on my birthday, actually. Right after midnight, she was born. It was a great labor, whatever. I gave birth. I was sitting there. Lucky helped. And we were sitting there. And then the next morning I woke up and that was one of this it was one of the scariest experiences postpartum for me because it genuinely felt like everything was a dream I told my I told Lucky I was like it feels like I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and I would have never been pregnant I don't have a baby I don't like this doesn't feel real what is happening I was terrified I told him like I don't feel like I'm here.

49:11Am I here? Like, did I die? Like, I looked at him one night and I'm like, did I die? And he got so concerned. He called his sister and his mom and he's like, is this normal? Like, what's going on? And then I didn't tell my midwife because there was like this whole, I just have, sometimes I have a hard time conveying like hard emotions to people because I want to be seen as this very like collected, strong woman to where I don't want people to think I'm unwell. no pun intended um and it was really hard and I I had really bad postpartum anxiety for like two weeks I remember I didn't tell anyone I gave birth online it took me like a hot minute to like let people know because it felt like it didn't happen every morning I'd wake up looking at this baby being like who are you and I'd never had that experience before and that was really really hard and then the postpartum anxiety kicked in to where I was like well I don't know what to do like I don't know and then through it all I still had to work like three weeks after she was born I was shooting cookbook images in where was it the Catskills or somewhere like somewhere like an hour and a half I don't know where it was but we were shooting at this house and she was three weeks old and I just had to keep it pushing so it was almost this like I was so disconnected from myself and your body and my body reality like everything it felt like I was living this like warped reality and it took me a hot minute to find myself back in my body and like understandably yeah and then the minute I did I was like oh we've got a rhythm here you know like everything's okay we find out whimsy has cancer it was just a mess and then on top of all of that i was still posting my videos i was still posting stories and being like today my kids were while internally i was like crumbling truly crumbling and i was like zipping up my dresses being like okay let's just go do it let's just take the meeting oh next flight out to here okay i'm bringing the bait oh pumping okay wait like it felt like this like you're just going in autopilot to just get through get through get through get through and you're like not processing deadlines for the book like there was no messing around there was no messing around i think that something that you're describing is probably one of the more realistic experiences that women have after birth and I think that even saying that out loud there's a lot of women that are like is that is that true and it's like yes like almost I would say let's say I have 10 of my girlfriends that have children seven of them have had extreme postpartum anxiety really intrusive thoughts like I remember when I got pregnant and my friend came to me and basically was like I just want to say something not to freak you out but I want to say it before you give birth because I need you to remember this moment she basically was like there is a chance and I hope it doesn't happen to you but there is a chance you are going to have some really crazy dark thoughts yeah like crazier than you could probably ever imagine really intrusive thoughts and it's okay and it's actually way more normal but no one talks about it because as a woman like you just said you didn't tell your midwife because you want to present as strong and then there's the added level of like you just gave birth you should be so happy you should present as this okay figure because also like the mother not being okay like oh my god what's wrong with you because now we don't have as much empathy anymore because you don't have the baby in the belly like you got to get your shit together and so there's all these pressures to like bounce back and get back and it's like I can't imagine the internal struggle emotionally that you were going through and that you had to fight that battle somewhat on your own of course you can share it with your husband like it's on you in in a capacity of course you should share it but like it's overwhelming it's so overwhelming and I think it doesn't get talked about enough and there's not a safe enough space for women to really voice how they're feeling and I think it is really important the postpartum to be open.

53:17I think that's what I learned through my last experience. I'm like, I really wish I would have told my midwife or gotten a therapist or someone to just help navigate because on a physical level, like your hormones plummet. That's just what it is. Like you go through like the largest plummet in your hormones that you can ever can possibly have in your life. Right. So I think as women, I really encourage everyone that's having a hard postpartum experience to really seek help because I promise you're not going to get seen as weak or not capable or whatever more so it will give you the tools to really have that community and even with intrusive thoughts like no one talks about it because it's it's scary because you don't want anyone to think that you would ever do anything to your baby or that you would harm yourself or that whatever it is and no one really creates that safe space of it being okay but it is okay and you can also have people in your space that will understand and help you navigate it.

54:15So many women who've gone through it would be like, I'm just telling you, they're like, yes. Yes. But to a normal person maybe who - They're like, what's wrong with you? You need help. But not in a way that's bad, more so in a way of like, let's support and give you a good foundation to feel your best. Not because you're bad, but because you need a stable foundation. And I also think like when you, there is something in life where it's like, if this is happening so regularly, that is then the norm. Like that is normal to, it's not normal to live like that forever, but there is clearly scientifically proven that women after all of these hormones drop, like you're going to go through this potentially.

54:55It needs to be talked about. It needs to be talked about. I hope this makes women feel less alone. And also we're hopefully just through this conversation, chipping away a little bit at the stigma of postpartum, the anxiety, the intrusive thoughts, like you are not alone. You are not crazy. And that is where I think women coming together and talking about it makes other women finally feel like, oh, my God, there's like a woman that's going to watch this right now and be like, girls, I never needed that more than to hear that I'm not insane for having these thoughts. No, you've just gone through the most life altering experience ever that you will ever go through give yourself grace and also recognize that you literally you've grown a human being every single bit of this human being you've grown from nails to hair follicles to organs to brain to skull everything and then you've given birth to this human being and then what you're just supposed to resume business as usual no that's like physically not how it works and mentally not how it works and i think we talk about the physical maybe even more than the mental like I feel like postpartum in general is not talked about enough but if we do talk about it it's like oh you're gonna have this or you're gonna not be able to do this or like let's figure out the nursing or whatever it may be but no one necessarily talks about all the things that could happen mentally after it's so true I was thinking about that because it is such an adjustment from your your mind and your body and and they're both going through such different things yeah A large conversation around postpartum bodies.

56:32I mean, that's a constant conversation, but I feel like you kind of got put into the mix after you gave birth to Fani. I did. Some people online really celebrated how quickly you appeared to recover. And they were talking about, you know, I think it was like a mirror selfie or whatever it was or a picture of you. And then while others talked about, you know, the pressure that this puts on women. to bounce back after having a baby. How did you feel about being a part of that conversation? And how have you navigated that? I think that's postpartum looks so different for everybody. Bodies are different for everybody.

57:12Some some people bounce back really quick. Some people don't. Some people get stretch marks. Some people don't. I think that we as women should uplift every single woman postpartum. And I think, yes, did I post a picture that maybe evoked emotion in other women or other people in general? Yes. But what people don't realize is that to me, that picture wasn't me at my best in my normal. I was crying that same morning. I was wearing a diaper in that picture. I was wearing linen pants because I didn't fit a single one of my denim pants that I had. I was way above my usual weight. Like I didn't feel like myself.

57:52And I posted that picture being like, I don't feel like myself, but my body is magical because look what it just did. And I'm really proud of that. And that was my postpartum experience. But I think in general, we should celebrate everyone for where they're at postpartum. I completely agree. I think that there's such a pressure when it comes to even just the concept of bounce back culture. Again, focusing more on like how we do a mentally girlies like the body is the most incredible thing that like women and the fact that we are able to do what we're able to do in this moment is insane. And so just to be alive after that experience is like, yes, I'm happy and so I think understandably people are going to have insecurities that come with again extreme changes but to put another woman down for how something she can't control and also you shouldn't feel like you have to hide also my experience wasn't I think it's one thing what the public sees but then it's also so different to how I feel I think that being a mother looks so different for every single person and i think we should really celebrate everyone for where they're at and the safety that it takes to share whatever they want to share like i think that we should really just make it a safe space for women in general regardless of what your postpartum looks like whether you bounce back or you don't because to me someone bouncing back might look a certain way right i'm like oh that because i compare myself to sometimes i'm like oh that mom really just did it.

59:26She's thriving. She just did this. But being a mom myself and having gone through birth, I'm like, what she shows me is probably her best or she wants to show parts of herself that she feels really good about or that she wants to share for whatever purpose that may be. I'm not going to compare myself to anyone. I was going to say, I think that actually leads us perfectly into this next conversation because it really is such an indicator of like, guys, we also just anything you see on social media you don't have the full story even freaking close like at this point I am convinced we are maximum in moments getting 10 percent of a lot of people's lives and that is some for some people generous yeah like you said as you are navigating postpartum you find out that your daughter whimsy has cancer yeah can you explain just like how you decided for you and your family that it was the right time to even share this news publicly.

1:00:28It took a lot. I told myself I'm not going to get emotional. Sorry.

1:00:40Sorry. I got tissues. You're good. I think, I mean, it all boiled down to when we found out about everything and then all the behind the scenes and everything that was going on. Lucky and I did have those conversations. And my fear, I always had this like lingering fear. Well, what if someone takes a video of us in the hospital and they put it out? or because when we were in the hospital, people would come up to us and say, hey, can I get a picture with you? Can you say hi to my friend? And they probably didn't know that we were going through the hardest time of our lives. So obviously I smiled and said, of course you can and took the picture.

1:01:21But I was always nervous that people would kind of piece it together or someone would talk or someone would whatever. And to me, her safety and privacy was the most important thing. So I would always go back and forth with Lucky and saying, should we just share it? Should we just talk about it? What if someone else does? And he's like, but that doesn't matter. Like, what do you feel like in your heart? And I always came back to the fact, like, I don't want to share it. I don't want to, like, talk about it. I don't want her out there. I don't want any of that. So then as time went on and as we went through all the treatments and had really hard days and slightly easier days, I found a lot of community in the hospital talking to parents or the nurses or Going on reddit and like reading people's stories like all of that And the more I kind of went through that I realized that I find a lot of comfort in knowing that i'm not alone so then when she right after her birthday, she She was in remission We finished her last treatment.

1:02:22We rang the bell. It was very emotional and I just realized well maybe if I use my platform to make even just one person feel less alone I can do that and that's kind of why we shared it I can't even imagine Nara you being in that hospital and the anxiety of trying to protect your baby yeah and also being this public person and I'm sure there was just like so many emotions around like oh my god I want to like turn this part of my life off right now because like this is all that matters and I can I can't imagine the anxiety on top of already like the trauma that you and your family are having to endure it was really hard when you found out this diagnosis like what do you remember about that day I just remember we were actually coming back from a big family photo shoot the holiday one and my mother-in-law she talked to lucky and she was like I I saw this thing don't be alarmed but like maybe you should look at it and talk to Nara about it so then lucky came into the room I was nursing Fonny and he said don't freak out honey not that I usually freak out but like he was like just look at it and see how you feel.

1:03:45Should I take her to the doctor? I was like, what happened? Did she get hurt? Or what's going on? And then he was like, no, I don't think so. My mom just saw this. So then he was like, I was just like, let's just be safe and take her to the ER. Then we took her to the ER. The ER was like, we don't really know what to make of this. Just tell us if it gets worse. And I was like, okay, well, maybe it's just like a kid thing. I don't know. So then later that week I took Fonny to the pediatrician for the first time so I rang him and I was like this is what's going on with whimsy do you think I can bring her to just have a look so we walk in there and he does her first so he looks at her and then I just remember him going quiet he went quiet and like very calm and collected and in that moment like my heart just dropped and there was this like weird gut feeling of being like oh she has cancer I know she has because my mom before that she'd gone through a year of chemo treatments for breast cancer and it was gruesome and it was so hard to watch her go through that and there was always this lingering fear of this like sickness that would come so then i was like oh she has cancer but i didn't want to say it to lucky like i i did hint at it and he was like no honey you can't like you can't think like that so then he didn't even i don't even think he looked at fanny really he was like you guys need to take her to like the closest hospital.

1:05:04So the closest hospital was the Yale New Haven Children's Hospital. So I drove back home with Fonny because our other kids were at home and he took whimsy. And long story short, there were a bunch of like biopsies, ultrasounds, scans, whatever. And then a week after that initial visit, we got a phone call. And I just remember standing in the living room and the phone rang and it was this like weird gut feeling i'm like oh it's the hospital they're gonna tell us she has cancer i looked at lucky and i'm like this is it let's just brace ourselves and like it's cancer and then you could just tell by the voice and they were like we're so sorry she has cancer you guys need to start like treatment immediately and then they took her and then she started treatment they tested her further did a few few more scans and they were like it's really it's spread in her body so like you guys need to this is the treatment plan this is what she has to do and it was really hard so we lucky kind of did the majority of the because you would go home and then she would go to the hospital for five days and stay there from monday to friday every like 16 ish days depending on what her blood count was and lucky did those overnight stays because i had fanny at home that i was nursing and i couldn't be away from her so I would go during the day and then obviously try to also work and like do that so it was like playing Tetris almost and then we had our other kids so it was really really hard and it was a really tough experience and every day you would wake up and not quite know what's gonna what the day is gonna bring what the doctors are gonna say what like is the treatment working is it not like all these different things to where it it was really hard yeah.

1:06:52Nora I like I am so sorry even just hearing you like no parent should ever have to experience this no child should ever have to experience this I can't imagine the um emotional toll also of trying to be present for multiple children while also wanting to be present for the one child that is sick and going through it yeah um it also sounds like so such a blessing to have such an incredible partner yeah who was able to take this on while you were taking this on over here. I'm curious, like in that darkest moment where you, so you get that phone call as a couple, like what, how did you, I think it was a lot of being on autopilot because I think when I'm faced with a crisis, whatever that crisis may be, I'm like, okay, there's no time for emotions.

1:07:43There's no time for anything. It's like zoning in and doing it so I think at first like we didn't process it but I think it was we were both on autopilot making sure that she was all right making sure our other kids were all right and it didn't really hit us yet right so we were like okay let's let's do it it's like fine I guess and we were very communic like we communicated a lot I was checking in with him like how are you doing what are we doing like he was checking in with me um because you always hear when couples go through a really hard time it either makes or breaks you and a lot of the times I feel like I've heard about couples kind of drifting away but I feel like it's even it's brought Lucky and me even closer together because we were we really had to rally for whimsy so yeah that was that was just an insane experience and then the more time went on her hair started falling out and you like could physically see it like she would get really nauseous and like all the things that come with someone going through chemo treatment and I think that's when it kind of hit both of us and then we started like crumbling a little bit to where when I had a hard day with it he picked me up when he had a hard day I picked him up and we were like let's just keep going it felt like we were you know that game where you're like tied to someone else and you have to make it to the finish line together that's what it felt like and every time I was like I don't think I can go any further he was like yes you can like you can and then vice versa so I think it really it required Lared a lot, a lot out of both of us, but we made it.

1:09:15How did you explain just like the changes that were happening to your other children? I think they were at an age where they could kind of get it, but kind of not. But there was this book, I don't remember the name of the book, but it was this book about cancer that a mom wrote after her kid went through, I think it was brain cancer, to like make sense of the situation. So we read this book, I think it was something and the hair fairy or something to where it talked about like this, this cancer. It was like described as like a gummy ball in your body or something like that and that you would lose your hair.

1:09:53And then the hair fairy would come and like you should just put your hair somewhere and it's going to take the hair. And like it was a very beautiful kid story. And all my five year old took away from that was like, I want the hair fairy to come. so I was like I don't think it works like that but like sure and then as time went on like they would have these random questions to where I also realized like maybe it is like on their minds to where I would like Slim would ask me is it like can I get cancer I'm like no it's not contagious it's like trying to explain it but they would ask these questions in the most random situations to where I knew that I just had to be like extra present with them and extra loving and kind of just explain things a little bit better for them but yeah what um what kept you hopeful in some of your darkest moments knowing that I wasn't alone like the community and knowing that there's parents out there that are and have gone through similar experiences that have made it out the other end and were fine I guess in whatever way you want to interpret that but also just the fact that I can't give up hope if I give up hope whimsy will and I need to show up for my daughter and I need to make sure she's all right and she like she will be all right I'm gonna make sure of that and if it's not this treatment it will be next treatment like there was there's never there was never the thought of like giving up emotionally or physically to me do you have any if someone a parent is listening right now who happens to be going through something similar like do you have any advice that you would want to share?

1:11:33I just want people to talk about their emotions with anyone that they feel comfortable with. I think it can feel like a very, very isolating experience that you don't really think anyone else would understand or go through or whatever. But the more community you seek, the more you'll find people showing up for you in ways that you never thought they will like even by sharing that I've had so many people reach out and offer support even though now we're in remission so it I waited until we were because I never like I couldn't stomach going through everything at the same time but having people reach out or sharing their own stories or even sharing how other people showed up for them I think community is so important and I want you to go seek that yeah because there's a huge community out there that's so beautiful How do you think this experience has changed your family's just like day-to-day life now?

1:12:32I think it's made me at least really be present and grateful for every moment that we have. It's made me really just see even the small mundane things as something that I enjoy doing and I want to find the beauty in and make extra special. Like even if it's setting a table a little bit more elaborate than I wanted to or making them their favorite meal, because like, why can't we have mac and cheese tonight? I'll make mac and cheese, you know. So I think it really made me cherish those small moments that before I was very nonchalant about. Yeah. You know. In what ways do you think this experience allowed you to see Lucky in a different light?

1:13:15I've never thought about that question in that way but I think seeing how tender he is and so loving and supportive and like there was no an optimistic like there was not a single moment where he didn't show up for whimsy for me for the kids for everybody as like a strong partner and father. and sure did did he have really hard moments that we worked through together absolutely but it just showed me just how beautiful this family is that we've built together and how each and every person has a part that's so integral for all of it to work properly yeah I remember you had said um that you guys had gone to couples therapy before like how did the foundation that you guys have built really prove to be a solid foundation during this time?

1:14:14This is something that no one thinks is going to happen, right? So when we went to couples therapy, I was like, let's just do it to really build a strong foundation. I wanted to make sure that we have the tools because he grew up in a different way than I did. And we both bring baggage that maybe we're aware of or maybe we're unaware of. And therapy gets a bad rap. Couples therapy gets a really bad rep it's like oh you're gonna get divorced that's why you're going like what's wrong with you guys what's wrong sometimes like nothing's wrong and you just want to have the tools to have the best life like i want to have the best life in every aspect of my life and that to me comes with work sometimes harder sometimes easier but it's work nevertheless so we kind of learned the tools of i think one thing that was really big for us is communication we kind of talked at each other a lot, but never with each other.

1:15:03So I think that came in really handy with this experience to where even though I might have felt whatever I felt, I created the space for him to feel the way he felt and for him to communicate that with me and for us to work through that together and really be heard by each other. Oh my God. I can't even imagine how integral that was to the success essentially of you being able to just like every day get through this because like you said I agree I think you hear so many stories understandably of people losing their way with their partner because grief and trauma like you're you're trying to regulate and you're trying to be there for your child who you're putting first and so like it kind of becomes an afterthought sometimes about your partner it kind of has to be and so I think to know that you guys were able to really try to tap into that is so beautiful.

1:15:58And I'm just also probably so beautiful for your other children to try to my best friend. And I think that's also what really helped. Like he's not just my romantic partner. Like he truly is my best friend. And I don't know what I would do without him. So it almost like our friendship and our understanding of each other really helped in every aspect and our kids too like they I think having that relationship to sure do we fight sometimes or bicker or argue absolutely our relationship is not perfect like I don't think anyone's relationship with anyone is perfect but I think our kids have seen us like really rally and they've seen us maybe have an argument I think it's healthy sometimes for them to see that but then also see the resolution of it and how we find our way back to common ground like I think all of that was really important for them to see and i think it's just been a really humbling experience and hard you have been through how old are you 24 yeah you have been through so much life i have and you are so impressive like obviously you're now coming out with this cookbook.

1:17:14Yes. Homemade. It comes out October 13th. Yep. And it's so interesting because we've watched you on TikTok. We've watched you making these concoctions, but to now put it into a book, and I love it because it's not just recipes. You're actually kind of telling the story of like how you got to where you are today. Why did you feel like now was the right moment to do something like this? When I started with the whole TikTok thing and my recipes and videos gained traction. A lot of the comments were, we need a recipe book. Where are the recipes? So I started with my sub stack and then just realized that I love a good book.

1:17:51I really do. So I'd also never owned a cookbook, which is weird. I'd never owned a cookbook. And then writing this, my publisher was like, so have you ever read a cookbook? I'm like, no. She's like, you need to go. Go get some. But through this whole process, I just realized I want all of my recipes in a book that can live on someone's counter and be kind of timeless i want it to be on your counter for a very long time hold up the book i want to see it the cover is a whole thing promo that thing girl no it's so cute even the back like it took it's it's a labor of love something i also need you to talk about is um there is someone that is very reoccurring in this book that you often bring up and your grandmother.

1:18:37Oh, like who are we talking about? Your grandmother. Yes. What is one of your earliest memories with her in the kitchen? Because I know that she inspired a lot of your love for cooking. Her and I were really, really close. She was the one that taught me how to play the piano, how to read. Like she was very much involved. And I just remember there were a few things that she would make a lot. One of them was oatmeal like this cinnamon rich oatmeal I've never been able to recreate it but it was phenomenal and that was one of my first memories with her in the kitchen to where she would like wrap my hands around the spoon tell me how to stir it plate it up sprinkle it with more cinnamon and she was just this warm very and then we'd sit on this like banquette in her kitchen and behind us it was just like a wall of black and white cat pictures just a whole wall full of cat pictures i'm like this is crazy but yeah that was one of my first memories and she's always been like an inspiration even like i got psychic readings once by like this religious medium it was my grandma that would pop up in all these things and she was like your grandma's wanting you to know this your grandma's really proud your grandma's like looking over you when i see her standing at the piano what does this mean and i'm like crazy so you did see her so you didn't see her yeah that's i was thinking about too because even you saying like oh my god i don't i still haven't been able to recreate her oatmeal like by you putting finally your recipes in writing i feel like you're right so many people for so long have been like nara where's the recipe and i'm like i've been i can't tell you but like i'm working on it i promise but i couldn't tell anyone for two years okay what is the first recipe you knew had to be in the book oh that's really hard because we were going through lists of recipes for so long but i knew that like my kookier recipes had to be in it like i know you want to know how to make an oreo let me give it to you right cheese it's you don't have to buy that anymore let's just make it so those recipes are in there but then i also cook a lot of normal meals like i need to feed my family i need to feed myself so here are some recipes that i actually like genuinely cook on and offline for right they're a little less they're like cheese it i know sometimes you just have like an hour to get dinner on the table let me let me tell you how to do that okay okay so you were giving us range range i appreciate that yeah what is one recipe that took the longest to get right there's this one recipe in there that's like a sour dough bread but not with a starter oh to where it was like i'm not gonna make you feed your starter for like because okay the recipe started off as like I'm gonna show you how to make your starter feed it every day yeah like what do I do like Nora I don't know what to do with a starter yeah so I'm like that's like two weeks of work for a loaf of bread I'm so sorry okay so this is gonna help me have no starter no starter you still kind of get that same thing it will only take you like five to six out okay that sounds crazy still but like for bread that's not that long because it's also hands-off work I've heard literally people in LA like I have got a hookup for someone who has starter and no I literally no Alex you don't understand my friend she lives in utah and she had a starter and i was at her house with my kids and i was like moaning to her i'm like i don't might i had to throw my starter away and she was like you can have some of mine like willa is really doing it and i'm like great so she sent me home with a starter i flew around airport like through security i could take it which i don't know whether i could actually or whether the guy just knew me and he was like he's like i see that starter i see that starter just go just go just go i don't know i would travel with it and feed it like every airbnb i was in feed a starter water and flour i'm so stressed nara no i need to show you it's really easy i wanted to have fresh bread in my house no i love fresh bread but i'm like i need to send you the bread recipe in there i also have a sandwich bread recipe like i think the baking ones took longer actually cinnamon toast crunch cereal took so long okay so how like idiot proof is this very because i'm the idiot but here's the thing i think a lot of people have this misconception that i'm this like professional i'm a home cook honey i started cooking at the same time as you saw me starting to cook like when i posted on tiktok that's when i started that makes me feel good yeah so like so i could maybe figure something out some of these might be a little technical but with the steps you can figure it out and then some of them are so easy to where you just throw some lentils and sweet potato in a pot and you'll be fine.

1:23:12So I think that's range. Yeah. I wanted it to feel accessible to people. I didn't want it to feel like, oh, all you're getting is from scratch recipes. No, I wanted it to feel like an essential book that you can get started with and feel comfortable with. And like, my cooking takes trial and error. Do you know how many times I've made things? Like, I tried making Twizzlers the other day. Horrible. Didn't work out. Toss that. So it really is trial and error.

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1:25:41Shop now in store or at Macy's.com. We need your expertise. Yeah. What is it? I'm going to throw you a scenario and you're going to tell me what I should make from scratch. You ready? Yeah, tell me that. You want to impress at a dinner party. What are you bringing? I'm hosting, so I'm not bringing. Okay, me being like, I will never host a dinner party. I'm the girl that orders the takeout and puts it on the plate and pretends I made it. I've never done that, but that sounds fun. Genius. Okay, what are you making for your dinner party? So here's the thing. I love a good menu and I love a theme.

1:26:19We have to have a theme. We have to have a menu. So let's figure out the theme and then figure out the menu after. But what I do love, I'm a little biased, like a roast chicken. Here's the thing. A roast chicken feels impressive if you do it right, but it's very hands-off. It's like one of the easiest, like that's the dinner I make when I'm like, I have no idea what to make. It's a roast chicken because you like do it, pop it in the oven, and then you do a bunch of sides. I like things that you could prep the night before and then just plate the next day. done okay your kids come home from school absolutely starving what are we making bread and jam bread and jam that's a good answer you're trying to seduce your future husband yeah steak and fries with like a sexy like peppercorn sauce oh yeah okay you need to pick me up comfort meal after a really tough day beef pie okay your in-laws are unexpectedly coming over in 30 minutes what are you making something american let me tell you that maybe no tacos tacos my dad-in-law loves his little tacos okay so i make some tacos but it's so different from how you like are you making your own taco seasoning well what do you mean like mixing spices together oh is that what it is you just take like cumin and whatever and like put it all together what do you what do you do oh i get like the you know the taco packs from the grocery store oh that's an option yeah but i mean taco seasoning is chill you just have to have you have your spices and you throw it together i never thought about it like that yeah when i said idiot in the kitchen oh so that's fine i could just kind of you can just make it yourself well of course like make your seasoning like dry the bell pepper and like grind it and make it like where are you putting on the beef to make it have that little like zest oh you just like okay you probably have a rack of spices in your kitchen right and you just throw them together whatever makes sense for like the cuisine you're going for and then i do love a good like i like a good sweet and hot thing so i make my own salsas i also have this really good recipe in my book actually i'm not trying to plug it but hit it um it's like a roasted pork situation pork tacos with like two different salsas and you can put the pork on in the morning and put it in your slow cooker and then not think about it until dinner that's what i'm gonna try and then you could either make your own tortillas if you want to or you can just store store bought store bought so we're not getting crazy if i'm making my own salsa yeah then i'm probably hitting up the tortillas at the grocery store you Or you do the tortillas and buy the salsa.

1:29:01Which one do you think? Which one's more impressive for me? How are you making your own? I have so many questions. Cornflour. Is it cornflour? Masa harina? Yeah. A little bit of water. Wait, what do you order for takeout? Is this controversial? No, I love a good takeout. I really do. I think sometimes there's something so beautiful about someone else cooking for me. How many nights a week are you like cooking in your household? I try to cook every night. Sometimes like the other day my chickens got eaten by a fox and I was making chicken and I was like, there's no way. So I got takeout. Oh, yeah.

1:29:36That feels a little. It felt a little barbaric. Yeah. I couldn't do that. It's a little morbid. Oh, wow. So you're like, we're going to. It depends. But I usually order takeout that I don't really want to make myself. So it's Indian food, Thai food, Vietnamese food. I would never order something I could make like ordering a burger for takeout on Postmates. Criminal activity. so crazy yeah that who would ever do that sometimes it's a necessity right but for me personally i i i can't hate to see me coming if i pulled up my postmates order you're gonna be like alec yeah i would actually be like let's just tweak this how about we do indian instead you can so that that that i would much rather order okay last one you're over halfway through your pregnancy it's 10 p.m asking for a friend suddenly you need something you want to make something yummy what are we making like how much time you got an hour oh that changes the game they're oh 30 minutes i would make okay i don't like this but i know americans love their chocolate chip cookies i would make chocolate chip cookies and then i would make well i would probably have ice cream that I made in the freezer, but you post made some vanilla ice cream.

1:30:53And then you put your ice cream sandwich together, hot chocolate chip cookie, but like not hot because then it will crumble, but like warm vanilla ice cream in the middle, another chocolate chip cookie and you press it together, get yourself an ice cream sandwich. And if you're feeling fancy, you melt some chocolate and like dip it and let it harden. You do that. I love you. I am so gonna do that. Oh, that's a good one. yeah oh i'm craving that right now no it's good stuff and like you don't have to like spoon it or do the whole thing it's like an ice cream sandwich and you can also prep those in advance and put them in your freezer so you can just pull them out and you get like the perfect vanilla ice because sometimes when you buy the pre-made stuff you're like the vanilla ice cream sucks or the cookie sucks but you can get it the way you want to get it you are blowing my mind right now yeah it's it's like talking to an expert and i'm like this child that's like i'm trying to absorb some stuff is going what's your pregnancy craving because that's what i want to know okay so in the beginning obviously i was like nauseous i wasn't craving anything right right right then i started craving in and out a classic a classic and so when you're like oh ordering burgers i'm like no no i'm going to in and out well because that's okay fair that's fair we'll take that off the list because that was my craving okay fair but i would want it weirdly in a lettuce wrap yeah same and then i also wanted to get a flying dutchman you're me there's one nara that was me so good and then yes oh my god of course i need to have the same order then so that was me and then i started craving donuts oh which was taking me down like a weird path and i was like every morning my husband would come to my bedside and i would say like bring me a donut and a little coffee and i was like so happy so that was good i love that and so i've gone through like some weird phases like it's it's kind of hit or miss sometimes but for right now i'm like i'm really really liking my ice cream right now so this is why it's really hitting no no i'm not making it perfect you're gonna make homemade ice cream i'm like nara do you know what's really good though if you love an ice cream is the jenny's birthday cake ice cream my denny's i will buy that oh Oh, okay.

1:33:05So that's what I'm on. But right now, I don't know if you did this when you were pregnant, but like I need a lot of different tastes kind of happening at once. Yes, yes, yes. So my bowl, Nara, is like mint chip, then vanilla, then chocolate, then strawberry, then I have some cookies and cream, then I have some salted caramel. Absolutely. And I need all the tastes. Yep, yep, yep, yep. And then I just lay there and I'm like. And you're like, okay. But I could only eat like three bites because I'd feel so full so quick. Immediately. I have so many questions after this. Yes. Because I'm having issues with pregnancy pillows and like I'm trying to figure it out.

1:33:34Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna talk offline but um you I wrote something down yeah we're rounding out our conversation now I think we're having girl talk about we're in front of cameras okay um you talked a lot about wanting to build something that lasts yes what does that mean to you one thing that I've always strived for is longevity I want the business and whatever I'm creating to grow alongside me because it's unrealistic for me to think that I'm just going to be doing this for the rest of my life like I'm gonna grow and evolve I'm only 24 I don't know what the next 10 years have in store for me but all I know is I want to be working and building my business and growing to where I I enjoy so many different things like obviously I love my social presence I love cooking so writing the cookbook felt natural I ended up being in a movie where I had that whole experience to where now I want to do acting so I'm taking acting classes I also want to build my own brand And, you know, we'll get into that when the time comes.

1:34:35But I think people are really going to love it. It's going to be really fun. So we're working on that. And then just kind of figuring out TV, that space. Just I feel like the world is my oyster. And like the most grateful and humble way I could possibly say that. Because I'm so grateful to have the community that has put me in this spot to be able to really execute my vision. And I'm so grateful for it and really excited for the future. I mean, I'm so happy that I got to talk to you because all the way back to the beginning of our conversation, just talking about the misconceptions and the labels.

1:35:07And I think it's just like another testament to what you said earlier of just like, why can't we all get more comfortable with celebrating women who are multifaceted and have drive in multiple different areas? And how about this, are thriving in multiple different areas of their life. And instead of that being a threat and something that we want to ignore or downplay, let's look at it. Celebrate it. We should all just help each other and like really just uplift each other. That's all I want to do. No, I'm so happy I got to meet you. I really appreciate you. Also, I know we went through so many different topics and I know that so many of them were extremely personal.

1:35:45Well, thanks for making it a safe space. Of course. No, thank you for coming on Caller Daddy. Thank you.

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