Paris Jackson: Love, Loss, & Listening to Your Intuition

32:34And I love how you said earlier, like, things that you've gone through, you've been able to connect with so many people. And this is something you kind of, I know you've said, dealt with in your teenage years. When do you remember your relationship to drugs and alcohol kind of beginning? Probably eighth, ninth grade. But that kind of reachiness started much younger. I think I was maybe around like seven, eight, nine when I started to just like kind of reach for things outside of myself, whether it was a person or food or, you know, just survival skills, I would say. Like self-harm, for example, is probably not a living skill.

33:17It's a survival skill. Just things like that. It's kind of always been present. Just this idea of like, I think I need something to help me manage. And did anyone close to you when you were that young know that you were going through that? I don't think so. I mean, I hit it well. I hit it well. I think people that navigate through life managing that way tend to learn secrecy pretty well, pretty quickly. That's what I've had a lot of people on and people often talk about how they used, you know, substances to kind of like escape or numb feelings. What was your experience? Like, was that, does that resonate?

34:09I mean, I enjoyed the effect produced by whatever I was doing. It was just to feel different, I think, than how I was feeling. So just controlling and managing my thoughts and feelings and just using other things to do that. How were you feeling when you weren't using? uh restless irritable discontented just very like not comfortable in my own skin you know and that does tend to happen with a lot of people that you know are very just have very addictive personalities when you just quit cold turkey and you don't have any kind of replacement program you kind of have to it's like a white knuckling process and so going through life, white knuckling it is rough.

34:58And so there needs to be, I found for someone like me, some kind of replacement technique. You've talked about how you were raised to have good morals, but alcohol kind of brought out this version of yourself that you really didn't like. I'm a cunt. Can you share when you started to realize that? And was it you realized it through yourself or was it people telling you? I was starting to get, I was starting to hear stories of like what would happen when I was blacking out and they started progressively getting worse. And I basically scared myself into getting help. Oh, that's I mean, I can imagine like how hard that is, too, because at first, I don't know, like, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you want to be in denial at first because like this is something that you're using and it's making you feel good.

35:50And so to hear those stories at first, when do you think it went from you being like that's not that that's not that bad to like oh my god maybe I do need to take these stories into account of what everyone's telling me and like I do need to listen yeah I mean it had happened in uh like end of 2019 because I got sober the first week of 2020 um it was yeah you know I realized I couldn't stop after I'd gotten rid of like some of the harder stuff. And I realized even with, you know, weed and alcohol, like I just couldn't stop and it was just getting worse. And it just, I had my breaking point. I had my bottom and it just kind of did it for me.

36:34And so then it was like, okay, what do I do? What do I, you know, how do I rebuild the foundation? How do I, you know, come up with some kind of daily thing to keep, to keep me good and develop a spiritual life and find ways to be of service? That must have been hard. That was during COVID. So you were trying to get sober during COVID. How was that? It was really fun. It was really fun. I found a really cool community of people that were somewhere around my age. Some of them were a little bit younger. that were also newly sober and we all just kind of like hung out and you know spent almost every day together and and it was you know I had this camaraderie and community and fellowship of like okay you know what I'm going through I know what you're going through and there's just this understanding I think community is so important because I've heard some people say that the opposite of addiction is connection and so having that kind of like I've got my people they you know they've got me.

37:42When you started to get sober, what was the self-reflection on like how that time in your life had impacted the relationships? And did you also realize like certain relationships weren't serving you now that you were sober? Yeah. I mean, the people I was getting high with, I probably shouldn't keep hanging out with them. Like my fucking drug dealer, I probably shouldn't keep hanging out with them. You know, like there were some that were more obvious and And there were also some that took a lot longer to kind of, you know, I've had some friendship breakups that were worse than, you know, romantic breakups.

38:16And those are devastating. But it's really started to shift in this last year, learning how to be in right relationship with myself. I've started noticing ripple effects in all of my relationships. relationships um even like one of my best friends i would say my best friend who you know isn't in therapy never really had any issues with with drugs or alcohol and doesn't drink anymore but still smokes weed like just a very normal person um we have so much more we're able to have uncomfortable conversations we're able that foster trust and safety and more closeness and more intimacy where and we've been friends for 10 years but it's like really in the last year I've seen how adjusting how I am with myself is also affecting my relationships with friends with family like with you know it's really cool that's incredible Paris because I feel like anyone in my life that I have personally dealt with obviously who I'm there with them when there dealing with addiction or I've who I've interviewed it's like there's something so beautiful when you do get to that point where you start to see yourself and pour love into yourself and you're not numbing and you're like you essentially become lucid again and you're like oh my god and first it's uncomfortable from what a lot of my friends have told me they're like very uncomfortable I want to crawl out of my skin very uncomfortable but it's very like hand on heart gentle gentle like move through it this is medicine this discomfort is medicine and sometimes we don't want to take our fucking medicine because it tastes like shit but it it does what it needs to do and then you get to the point where you're now with your friend who you've had for 10 years and to say that this sobriety and this place in your life where you're now able to pour so much self-love into yourself has unlocked a complete different side of your relationship i I think that's what's been so beautiful is everyone who sat in that chair and talked about such different experiences.

40:26But there is a commonality of like, oh, my God, once you push through that really, really hard moment, and it's always going to be hard. But there is this like light at the end of the tunnel of like, oh, my God, I've never felt more connected to certain relationships and most importantly myself. And how beautiful is that? that like you're you're granted that at the end of that damn it's I mean there's nothing more rewarding and I also see that it is affecting my songwriting it's affecting my ability to express myself um I like I wrote a song I've only ever really written songs about like boys and heartbreak and drugs and you know a few weeks ago I wrote a song for my best friend and you know put it up on Instagram and she loved it and like we're both crying and it's just like this beautiful like I'm writing I wrote a song about a friendship breakup recently um and I'm being more descriptive I'm I'm shying away from the vagueness that I used to because I used to think like oh well the more vague I am the more people can like relate and it's like well I'm just gonna write about my experience and I'm just gonna be you know I'd be open for interpretation like some of the lyrics are a little like you know 40 seasons past and silver lines silver lines and tales to tell that's 40 seasons, 10 years we've been friends.

41:41Silver lines is she's starting to get gray hair. There's certain things in there where it's like little inside moments that she'll know what I'm saying, but other people won't. And then there's other things that are very specific, like the tagline in that little song that I wrote is like, if we're all just pieces of the people that we meet, you've got the biggest piece of me. That's not open for interpretation. That is exactly what it means. Is it unsettling putting that out into the world? because you are somewhat of a private person, you know? You know, when it's art, it's, when it's art, that's a whole other thing.

42:21You know, like there, there may be certain things that I may not want to talk about in an interview, or I may not want to talk about on my fucking Instagram. But like with, with art, I'm going to, I'm going to be honest. I'm going to share my experience. And then, you know, maybe I will talk about it later as it relates to the music. but let's talk about your music because there's a lot that inspired me because a lot of what you yes write about are like thematically things that I love to talk about on the show your new single zombies in love it talks about correcting me if I'm wrong but being in a relationship built around shared pain and escapism essentially when you look back at that relationship like how did that dynamic eventually become unsustainable for you?

43:10I mean, we're trying on heroin. So I don't think it was ever sustainable.

43:18But getting sober. Yeah, that allowed it. Yeah. What did that relationship teach you about healing on your own versus healing in a partnership? That one, not so much just because the whole focus getting out of that was like, I'm newly sober I need to like just not do drugs and alcohol like that was the primary focus and it was really hunkering down and just doing a lot of work on myself surrounding addiction um this last breakup that I went through was a lot more like oh how do I not go back to old coping skills like I yeah I may be able to like not touch drugs and alcohol but what are some other things?

44:00The graspiness. What else am I being graspy with that I can just not fucking do? Go in here, connect there and really just, that was a huge focus. I did this whole thing where I know a lot of people, I know I did for a long time, like, oh, I'll just get under someone to get over someone. That historically has never worked for me. And going from person to person doesn't work for me. So it was very much like, I'm not even going to go on a date. I'm not going to flirt. I'm not going to do prolonged eye contact for like X amount of months. I'm not, I'm not going to, and you're going to know what I'm talking about.

44:39Cause I'm not going to do an extended hug to see if they just to see if they'll do it back and to see if I can, because there is intrigue and there's validation in that we're not doing any of that we're just gonna we are tunnel vision eyes on our own paper we're fucking locking in and we are just it was one of the most uncomfortable at first uncomfortable but one of the best things I ever did for myself full-blown reset full-blown just like detox and I really got my priorities straight I really got uh the room to like be like oh what are the things that really make me happy? How do I listen to myself and listen to my intuition?

45:25Like my, my, my hearing has gotten a lot stronger. And yeah, that was one of the best things that I, that I could have done for myself after that split. Can we talk about that though? Because last summer you called off your engagement and that is that takes a lot of I think courage to end something when you have at one point decided I want to spend the rest of my life with this person and then obviously you you ended I don't know who mutual was it a mutual decision it was it was a choice that i needed to make to to be happy can you with what you're comfortable because i have so many women who listen and it's like i feel like there is something that happens especially as women where we can get more sucked into like oh my god i've spent so much time with this person i've invested in this i've spent there's a name for that i don't know what it is My friend said it the other day.

46:30There is a name for that when, oh, because I've invested X amount of time, I have to keep going with it. Oh, well, in business, it's called the sunken cost fallacy, which is so unsexy. And that's probably not for it. But it's like it's basically the sunken cost fallacy is like if you have spent so much time pouring into this one project and then it's like a better option arises, whether it's like, oh, my God, I see that I don't want this or I see that this could I could get this, but it could take two seconds, even though I've spent years building this. and it's going to be better for me. Don't just stay with the thing because you've invested so much time in it if it's not actually what's the best option for you.

47:05And so I can't help but wonder for you, like, how did you know, although I've invested in this publicly, I've spoken about it, there's a lot going on. How did you know you were, you made the right decision to end an engagement well as far as the public side of it goes I've had people write about my breakups before so it's not that big of a deal this is also my second engagement that I called off the first one I don't know if you could count the first one it was real to me even though we were strung out on drugs and the ring was one that he bought with my money without me knowing it was still like the love was so real for me and that that first one so this was like it was the second one no it wasn't it wasn't that casual no it was very like you know i there were times where i did try and end it but there was this little voice being like but what if however long down the line this is a voice that a lot of us have of if i just hung in there a little bit longer, it would have gotten better.

48:17And so I'm the person that needs to be sure, really, really needs to be sure. Even though I have a therapist, like a clinical psychologist, a coach, I have, you know, I have got a whole council of people, friends that know a lot about relationships and all the things that I was going through in life at the time that are like, honey and asking me the right questions of like why would you stay and my answers weren't good enough my answers weren't good enough just because I realized just because someone is a good person doesn't mean they're my person and I have to be happy and I realize that my non-negotiables are allowed to be non-negotiables and if these big major needs are not being met it doesn't matter that you're a good person and you're not going to cheat on me that's not a reason to stay Paris especially also because I think you know I I live in a city where it have where loyalty is not the biggest thing and so sometimes I maybe get it in my head that that's how most people are I have some of the most incredible men in my life that love their wives that love their kids that are just such stand-up dudes that would never dream of fucking that up so I know that that exists out there like i have i can examine the evidence and be like okay like it does exist this isn't the one and only person that's not going to do that to me no isn't that so fucking sad that like we as women in if you are in a um relationship like a heterosexual relationship you're like oh my god this man i'm convinced all of these men cheat right and so then you're like I found one that is like without a doubt this loyalty oh my god I would be an idiot to let this go and it's like guys it is kind of bare minimum for them to not cheat like we need to start looking at that that's not a boundary that's that shouldn't even be a prerequisite like that is just like that is what a relationship is is someone not cheating on you so like but we have been conditioned and I agree and it's like why do we convince ourselves that that's enough and then well he's gonna he won't cheat on me and da da da i was talking to my friend about this a few days ago um because she likes my you know my take on on relationships and certain things and so i only share my experience and i don't give suggestions or advice ever but um you know if sometimes when one thing is being met will disregard the other things and what was so awesome about, I'll give you an example for this person, was she really wants like a kind of like a caretaker person.

51:07And if there is a guy who does that one thing, she's like, cool, he's the one and is not going to look at all the other things that make him one of the worst people to ever be with. And we're willing to overlook a lot of things and paint over them because this one thing is being met. And so the conversation kind of becomes about, okay, what's the need? Caretaking. Cool. How do I give that to myself so that when homie comes knocking, I'm like, I'm good on this. What else can you bring to the table? What can you bring to the table that I don't already have covered? And what's been so cool about that time that I took after my last relationship was allowing myself to kind of the clouds part.

51:51I'm not willing to overlook a bunch of things. I'm like, I can be a little bit pickier. You know, the bar can be raised a bit because it's historically been very low. And I remember like there's this one time once I was like, okay, I'm going to chill. I'm not going to like actively seek people out. But You know, there was someone I got on the phone with him and it was a 15 minute phone call. And at one point he made a comment about like, yeah, I just can't picture my life without weed. And as someone that was one of the biggest stoners you will ever meet, like I loved weed. That was one of my favorite things in the world.

52:37like to the point where like out of my friend group I was the only one that was able to like keep up with Snoop Dogg one time when we all smoked with him which was like the coolest story ever uh to say that I was able to do that but where I'm at in life now like I don't judge it I because I loved it so much I understand when people want to do that but because it's not a part of my life at all I'm not gonna overlook that and be with someone that does it all day every day so I'm like cool okay thanks for your time click I'm not gonna even bother with the first date. No, I love what you're saying so much.

53:10And I do think this all goes to like, I'm so happy that it's so I love my job because had we met a couple of years ago, we would have had a fascinating conversation. And now that we're meeting here, we're also having a fascinating conversation because you're at such a different point in your life than you were a couple of years ago. Same with me. And I love what you're talking about, because when you get to that place where you start to analyze and realize, oh my God, if I can fill myself up in all these areas, these romantic partners are going to look so different because I'm not going to be like, there's this one wound that I have and it's this one thing, for example, the caregiver, like I need this person.

53:48If you don't need that anymore, then you're kind of like, what do you have? And you get to kind of look at the whole picture as opposed to them filling the void of whether it's your childhood trauma and this one person fits that one need and they fix it for you. then you literally are just you're you're you're putting yourself in a position where you are essentially accepting way less than you actually deserve because you actually have to fill the void they're never going to fill it it's going to be a stop gap yeah i was gonna say like and like and this is i can only ever really speak from my experience if it is coming from a wounded place if there's a specific trauma or specific wound even if say they give you the exact script for reassurance that you wrote out for them it's not gonna be enough it's not it's not gonna be enough it's not they can do everything right yes it's not gonna be enough because you have to actually get whole within yourself like you got like he can only help for so long or she can only help for so long and then eventually once they give you the 100 % maximum effort on caregiving or, you know, whatever, validation or whatever, eventually you're still going to go to sleep at night and it'd be like, ding, ding.

55:04I still don't feel whole in that area of my life. And you're going to realize, oh my God, I picked this person because I thought they could fill me up there. And guess what? That's nice. They do that for you, but you have to do it for you first. And when you realize that, you're like shit okay back to the drawing board but that's what you just did you went and you cleansed yourself no eye contact no long hugs Paris I'm dying every girl's even like okay maybe I need to try that dude I'm very like I'm very like I am the lead with the chin kind of person where it's just like oh we're getting sober we're going all the way oh we're doing this we're going all the way I'm very much like you know stage dive into the audience at full speed don't hesitate like jump.

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57:34And when you're done, you just toss the used scrubbing pad away and you never have to look at it again, okay? Everyone, we have our dorm rooms, we have our apartments, we have our homes. I don't care where you live, daddy gang. You need this. Throw away your gross toilet brush and join the millions of people keeping their toilet clean with the Clorox toilet wand. Grab yours today on Amazon. Use as directed. Okay, can you give any advice on how to navigate a conversation where you are ending a relationship? Because the amount of women who write into me and are like, I'm staying half of the reason because I don't know how to fucking end this.

58:14Like that is heartbreaking to do to someone you love. If homegirls got to stay in that so much to the point where she hits a breaking point before she finally has the conversation, then that's maybe the experience you need to have. Just like I'm not going to. I've had friends in recovery that, you know, I've gotten sober with and they go out. What am I going to do? Be like, you need to get sober. You need to stop drinking. I'm going to tell you what to do. that's gonna make them drink more like that's you know it's like hey i'm here you're gonna go if you need to go out and do more research and realize like oh i have a problem and i can't do this in moderation that's the experience you need to have is there anything that worked for you in the i will say what didn't work for me okay and this kind of goes across the board for like previous relationships tapering doesn't work tapering's not a you know and I see it happen also like I have a couple friends that you know aren't maybe in the middle of a divorce and like I see I can also observe and be like oh maybe this isn't just my experience tapering has not historically worked for me and no contact is one of the most effective and rapid ways of healing um

59:36If I had to make a suggestion, a light suggestion. Light. If there's any kind of spiritual practice you can bring into it before having the conversation, I would recommend that. Whether it's, you know, if you have a higher power or you have multiple higher powers or it's the universe or it's literally anything, prayer, meditation, anything like that, bringing that into it.

1:00:08And, you know, honesty without causing harm, which is it's very much a case by case. You know, it's hard to give one blanketed. Here's the advice for everybody going through a break. Like it's. I agree. I agree with that. Another song off of your new album, Stitched. It seems to explore codependency in relationships a little bit. Yes? No? I can see how it'd be interpreted that way. Okay. Yeah. I kind of interpreted it that way. Yeah. And that's what it's about. But I guess that's what I got out of it. And that is what it's about. That's what it's about. 100%. This is a song about codependency.

1:00:42That's a song. 100%. You're like codependency through and through, Alex. I'm glad you... Have you ever experienced codependency? Yeah. How have you ever... That's what my song's about. Okay, so I wasn't completely fucking wrong. For sure. For sure I have, of course. Have you ever had it where you were in the situation where someone else realized that, you know, they didn't need you in the same way that you needed them? And how did you handle that unraveling? Because codependency is hard to unravel. I mean, it can be aligned in many ways with addiction.

1:01:25I've had, I've experienced it in so many different ways where I was the one that had to like set up some boundaries or cut it off. And I've been on the other end of it as well. And it's tough. I mean, I would say in a hypothetical situation, doing what I did last year of like, let's get right with me is one of the best things. Let's get right with me and let's get right with whatever, you know, not going to give it a name. No, no, I agree with you because it's like almost like when you have a codependent situation, it almost becomes this like, I don't even want to say 50-50 situation, but you kind of are giving half of yourself and then trying to make it that they're the other or more, right?

1:02:12Yeah, you're right. It could be 70-30, 80-20, whatever it is. and what you start to realize is like you're actually not operating 100 % as yourself and as comfortable as codependency in the moment can be and scary as it is to detach yourself from it you're the longer you prolong it the more you're going to get so seeped into that experience and it's going to be harder to remove and so I agree with you sometimes like cold turkey and removing yourself and then pouring into yourself is kind of the only way to navigate getting out of a situation like that it's hard it's really in a lot of just issues in general that that as far as like you know connection relationships and and just like anything consuming the opposite is well how do i be in right relationship with it whatever that thing is could you see yourself getting engaged again i don't know um you know it's a day at a time kind of thing for me you know it's i realize that if I spend so much time thinking about what the next 10, 15, 20, 30 years is going to look like, I'll get there and I'll look back and be like, damn, I didn't enjoy where I was when I was there.

1:03:18And I was just thinking about where I'm going to be at now. So are you staying single? Are we are we dating? Are we in a relationship? What's happening in Paris? I'm happy. That's all. That's all I'm going to say. That's a good answer. You have been open about struggling with self-love. We've talked about it a little bit. But where are you now sitting here like today at with that? And what are things that you now are like, I will not tolerate this, whether it's from yourself or a romantic partner? As far as intimacy goes, genuine connection with a person. Can you expand a little bit? Like, what does intimacy look like to you?

1:03:56Safety, trust. And there's a bit of spiritual connection in there, too. Yeah. yeah that's that's just a non-negotiable like i don't want to just like hook up with someone that's good and bad like i don't right you're like we've had that i i just i want actual love actual you know um and my my views on intimacy has changed my views on on a lot of non-negotiables that have changed uh there needs to be some kind of like creativity involved in in the connection and i need a laugh with someone that has all of the letters like my diagnoses that i do as well as like my addiction my cptsd and i just i need a laugh life's too serious are you usually the funnier one in the relationship i think it's dependent on the on the person um yeah but but in the in the last in the last few years i've definitely realized like i i don't want to be i don't want to carry the weight you don't bring it all especially because like my best friend is like the funniest person i know and and she's taught me a lot of like i think i get a lot of my humor from her because i've known her since i was a you know teenager um but yeah all my friends my bandmates are so funny my brothers are so funny like everyone it's it's very important it's so healing and it's so what life is about sometimes are you someone that historically like do you date people you've been friends with or are you going like you're meeting someone and you're immediately going to be romantic with them um i have learned i am the type of person that needs a foundation of friendship uh and that's not i definitely had issues with boundaries when i was younger we're just like whatever whoever kind of thing like i had hooked up with friends when I was younger and realized that, hey, you know, just because this is a really great friendship and we're in a really good place doesn't mean we need to take it further to make it better.

1:06:08And I've just learned that, you know, that's not for, you know, I just I'm learning boundaries and I'm learning that. But I also, yeah, for sure. I, you know, my as far as a partner goes, there's got to be a best friendship. There's got to be, you know, we got to enjoy just hanging out. Yeah, going out and doing nice dates and stuff. But like, hang out, shoot the shit, have fun, make each other laugh. Like that has to be has to be there. That's a non-negotiable. Speaking about your music, obviously, because the new album coming out, I was thinking about it. Being the daughter of literally one of the biggest musicians in history for the rest of time, I feel like there have been such expectations placed on you that have kind of expectations that have nothing gonna make you miserable i was gonna say that have nothing to do with you as a human being it's it's all because of you know who your father is it's like somehow these things were placed on you too um how do you handle that pressure or how do you manage it because you're in the music business right and so like you know it's uh i think comparisons the thief of joy and um as far as like what i choose to do i'm literally just going with what feels good to me it's like oh i really like the snare sound in this one pumpkin song i really like the way he enunciates this word in this manchester song and i really like you know the guitar tone of this bad book song.

1:07:43Like I'm doing what sounds good to me and feels right to me. And if other people have expectations of, well, you should go this route or you should do this genre or you should do this, you know, when you place expectations on other people, you're just going to end up sour about it. And that's not really my business, what other people think of me. And also if you're going to kind of, you know, try and turn someone into something that is one of a kind when no one else has been able to hold a light to that you're gonna make yourself miserable doing that um but yeah i think i do think it's a it's there's some humor to be found in like yeah i'm doing a grunge show i'm doing a rock show i'm screaming into a microphone and someone's like why didn't you moonwalk on stage and it's like that's the wrong show like you know i'm open up for incubus or i'm open up for like the pretty reckless like this is not uh this is not that show babe this is not that show that's i love that perspective you get on my loafers you know like i'm just i'm wearing combat boots we're not doing not anatomically possible anyways what do you think your dad would think about your music i don't like speaking for other people uh but based on what i knew about him wanting me to be happy i think because i'm happy he would be satisfied with that um august 21st the album comes out also that's my birthday by the way we've got good juju here okay it's your birthday birthday so thanks for the birthday i'll send you a vinyl yeah i'll be listening um can you explain what the inspiration behind this album is um it's not like uh it's cohesive in sound as far as like the sonics in the production go but it's not cohesive as far as storytelling goes like my first record was a concept record and it was like if you listen in track order from start to finish it tells a story this is kind of as far as what each song is about it they're all about different things um this this album is for is for freshman year old p it is like freshman year moody love Nirvana and like Smashing Pumpkins and Pixies and Marcy Plagas just very this is for her you know I'm like what if I just made something that she would have thought was really cool you know it doesn't have to be like wow this is this is like really well written music it's just like I just want it to sound fun and I want her to think that it's cool and the thing is it's like I am a folk artist at heart I will always be a singer songwriter folk artist so that might be where I'm headed sonically in the future, but I'm like, oh, like once I realized, oh, I can scream and I can project, like, fuck it, let's do a fun, loud record.

1:10:33What was the hardest song for you to write? The hardest one for me to write? I have to see the track list to think, because some of these songs I wrote years ago. As far as emotions go, probably Sirens. That one's very emotional. Yeah, that was about a buddy of mine that OD'd on my drugs. And I had to handle that till the paramedics arrives. That was a rough one. Yeah. How long ago did you write that song? Well, it happened, I think it was 2018 when it happened. And then I think I wrote the song in 2021 or 2022. And then I recorded it with Butch Walker. And I just kind of, it was just left on the back burner and I never really did anything with it.

1:11:19And then when I started working on this new record, I'm like, that fits. the vibe of this, I'm going to just throw that on there. And that was, yeah, I mean, that was scary because in a situation like that, even though I had experience with being a trained first responder, when you go into fight or flight, it's a gamble of how your brain's going to react. Just because you know what to do, your brain still might tell you to freeze and there's nothing you can do about it. um so it was definitely a lucky situation and and the paramedics had said like you know if you had gotten there any later he either would be dead or brain dead so you know and it's also definitely a testament to the whole like it takes what it takes because i still didn't get sober for another year and a half after that like you think something scary like that of like nope no that's such a good point it's like it's like almost like how people talk about completely different but like therapy when people like you literally can't convince someone to get therapy to get help like it has to be the person that finally something clicks in you and you're like okay today's the day family members try to convince understandably and it's like you have to be the one interventions suck dude interventions suck no one likes them everyone i talked to that's had them we all hate them you know what depending on the situation if the person's ready it works or you know it will be one step further into planting that seed in that person that when they are ready they will know where to go and they will know what to do and they will know how to handle it didn't work for me though it's all right you figured it out if you are still in touch with that friend that you wrote sirens about have you shared it with him i've not shared that song but um i did have a really nice conversation with him probably about a year ago we caught up and i kind of like i was able to kind of address some of the things that went south during that time when i was a mess and i'm like this is where i'm at now and these are the things that i'm kind of doing as like corrective measures daily to like no longer be that way yeah it's amazing what song are you most excited to perform on tour

1:13:44stitched is really fun to do um but there's a there's this other song that's not on the album and it's not one that that i'm gonna put out for a while but i just finished recording it and that one's probably like the most fun one to perform i also really i always do a cover of no rain by blind melon and we do like a rock version of it and i'm like shredding my voice on it and And it's fun and the audience loves it and the audience knows it because like they're not singing my own lyrics back to me, but they'll sing that one. So, you know, it's it's a really good time. Yeah. You've talked about how you kind of reinvented yourself many times over the years.

1:14:23How would you describe this current phase of your life that you're in? D major. It's like the happiest chord there is. It's sometimes a very corny chord, but it's yeah, it's the happiest chord. there is, I would say. That's amazing. That makes me really happy. Or a G because it's so well rounded and complete. Okay. Throughout all of your hardships and all the growth that you've been through, what are you the most proud of yourself for today? Relentlessness.

1:14:57Keep on trucking, man. Just fucking keep on trucking. Just keep going. You know, open-minded, willing i am so happy i got to sit down with you i had obviously so much i wanted to ask you and i really appreciate you being so open i know you are a very private person and i feel like kind of like you said like it is very indicative of where you're at in your life that your music you're like i used to write and like kind of allude and now it is kind of synonymous with how you're living your life is like you're pouring more in like you know even going from like my first record is very much like I'm singing in my head register and I'm like very like I want to hit the notes that other people are going to sound that they're going to think it sounds like maybe pretty or whatever and now I'm like but that's that's my head register when I sing with my chest register it's going to sound a little bit more abrasive and thank god I listen to bands like Bright Eyes and Modest Mouse because they don't give a fuck and it's like that's what I want to emulate of just like this is not gonna sound pretty and this is I'm not gonna do like the really nice like vocal runs of like a proper singer I don't even consider myself a singer so I'm like just get it out do the thing be full yeah in my fullness but it's translating also to your life like everything you're talking about is like you used to be understandably like you're like I wasn't sharing as much and not that you have to overshare your actual life but just being more open with yourself even the way that you've talked through this entire conversation of like I'm now pouring into myself and therefore it's kind of unlocking all these different sectors in your life that are growing even more than you could have imagined than a couple years ago like I'm so happy that I got to sit down with you and get to know you because you're a really interesting fabulous person thank you Paris thank you so much for coming on color daddy you were a dream guest thank you thank you

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1:21:18Use as directed.