Penn Badgley: Dan Humphrey vs Joe Goldberg

0:02What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with call her daddy pen badgley welcome to call our daddy hello um i'm so happy you're here so you said this is not normally what you would wear is this what anyone would normally wear no that's what what would you usually be wearing i mean just my clothes yeah like jeans sweats uh no no i mean no i i would wear i would wear so i mean the real answer i have like three pairs of pants that i that i wear on rotation two of them are in all of the tiktoks i've ever made or or any of my pocket i mean it's just there's green pants and there's gray pants okay everyone that follows you and they're all i so i think i got them right before the pandemic this is this is true and then you know fatherhood pandemic the fact that my job i'm never wearing my own clothing when i'm working i mean and you know what they are they're j crew unpaid i wouldn't ever you know but i'm not a j crew boy at all but they're just pants you know okay i love that for you um your wife is pregnant yes with twins yes are you ready who could be this um yeah as ready as we could be when you found out that you were having twins what was the reaction and emotion we got a stretch for this coaster i know i'm like i thought i'm trying to stay no i thought yeah no it's okay it's okay okay okay reaction well so my wife is a doula so so birth is a big part of our world you know for me uh 38 year old man i think i'm probably you know i happen to be birth is just it's like it's in my you know i mean so so actually when we thought we were just gonna have one and we were close to being like no we're good you know we were we were close then we decided no you know let's let's try it and um i think we thought maybe one would be you know we know what it is we have two we're surrounded by children and people who are having children that's just kind of I think it was like we knew like yeah it's gonna be a lot but it's felt like a known quantity and then it was just it was like oh oh this is how it will be very new here we go yeah yeah adding two yeah you guys are you guys are gonna do incredible but you're brave yeah no I mean it's it's as it's it's great I mean actually to be honest like when we see the sonograms right now seeing them together so first of all as an only child you know it's very touching to see them already so together they're so together they're just like there was one shot of them where they were just hanging out in a hot tub because they both were like up like this or at least in the sonogram i don't know which direction was north or south here because you know it's its own world but they looked like they were just you know they were sitting across from each other just like talking shit sort of like twitching you know i mean it's and they're in they're in different position every time we see them what do you think is your best dad quality currently what comes to mind is listening and then and then saying i'm sorry you know those are two things that i think fathers are not you know when men are getting a lot of shit um and these days when are they not am i i'm um but you know men can be good people they can be great people they can be great dads dads can be great we should we and unfortunately there are enough of us who have shown us otherwise right but fathers can be great and and i think but what we do not attribute to a father much i think is saying something like i'm sorry and like really listening and like you know what I mean yeah I think that's like almost like baseline people are like oh no just like go to your mom if you have a mom because like the dad's not gonna listen so I think it's like nice that you're acknowledging I'm trying to be opposite there just just in those at least I mean look there are other things that I do it's not like I can only listen and say I'm sorry um that would imply I'm just constantly messing up and I know I'm like damn you're just constantly yeah I'm so sorry I'm so sorry you and I'm sorry um That's also what you have to do to your wife.

4:37Whenever I'm having a problem with my husband, he'll be like, what was I even thinking? I'm so sorry. I love you. I've learned better. I like what was I even thinking. That's nice. Okay. Your podcast obviously focuses on people's like middle school experiences. So I kind of want to like go back a little bit today with you. Yeah, sure. Let's go back to yours. How would you have described yourself as a kid? That's actually, I've thought about this. I'm not sure exactly how I saw myself. I think, well, what I can be sure about is that I was in that particular period of 12, 13, 14, I was a bit horrified by like, very, very, very self-conscious, very extremely self-conscious.

5:18About what? I mean, probably mostly the way that I looked and then also the way that I sounded. So those are the two. How did you sound? Well, before my voice changed, like anybody, I had a bit of a high and nasally voice. um and so also i moved to la to become an actor when i was 12 so i was simultaneously pursuing you know this career and i mean i had no idea what i was getting into but i think that made me self-conscious so i mean everybody i think a lot of people go through this and a lot of times it's just it just is what it is i was i was pretty chubby and and there was a period where I was fat you know and that happened to have a big impact on my on the way I felt about myself it did it really did because did you feel that way when you were alone or was it a lot of like people saying things about you because I feel like when you're at that age it's always like kids are gonna of course you realize you're like wait my parents made me think I was great yeah yeah well and for me you know the truth is like I was a pretty constitutionally skinny kid and it was this period where my parents' marriage was falling apart.

6:33We were really isolated. We lived in the middle of, we were on a mountain outside of a town called Issaquah in Washington State. It might be quite developed now, but in the mid-90s it was not. And we had moved very suddenly from the East Coast, very far away. And my cat died on the third day of moving there, just didn't come home so i was like eight i think and um and i was just you know had no social outlet vibe at home was uh yeah it was you know what happens when divorce is like quite needed so yeah i was i was sad as as kids can be i think as many kids you know are as you're kind of coming into your consciousness but also i feel like because i talked to my mom about this a lot because she was an only child and her parents didn't have a great relationship so i feel like it makes you grow up pretty quickly because you are like it's almost like you're one in three adults it feels like immediately yeah that's that's that part definitely like which is not normal yeah well or i mean it's normal for you don't know it's not normal yeah so being an only child from your experience growing up like what how would you have described your relationship with your parents that's an interesting question because i because from 12 years old on my memories feel a bit void of parents even though my mom was present um i mean i moved with my mom to to la like in fact when i visit here now you know it's just it's surreal when i'm in places that i used to be when i was very young you know so you moved when and your parents got divorced around the time that you moved here for acting and did your dad stay yeah and your mom picked up and left with you yeah i mean a lot of actor kids this is the case because like why is a kid gonna truly pick up and leave with one parent like what's you're not leaving like a flourishing family life behind so that tended to be the pattern is there like a core memory that comes to mind when you think about like a moment from your childhood where you remember being like oh my parents don't have the healthiest relationship yeah I mean it's so early so early I don't even know when I was 14 I I I saw my um my parents dance together it was long after they've been divorced uh it was at a function for a show i was on it's like a um and they danced together for one song and they and they and they sort of hugged and they but what it was it demonstrated a closeness that i didn't realize until years later when i was like why do i remember this and think about it every now and then you know like and because it made me uncomfortable it made it made me feel a type of way that i couldn't identify um but that is to say they demonstrated a closeness that i had like you know never seen them them have they you know there are two people who they came together like who you know their parents and the parents like they're they're a generation where like they didn't have they had so little modeling of like not only did they not have modeling they didn't have um like the consciousness that we have now around you know relationship dynamics like listening and i'm saying i'm sorry you know like there was these things didn't exist um you know they just they like it's amazing that they stayed together long enough to have me and that they were like yeah yeah and also let's keep doing that like i don't i'm i you know it oh it they don't have a good answer for it they yeah that's really interesting about the dancing thing because i feel like I've talked to people before who are like I literally because obviously you either replicate or try to do the opposite of what you watch your parents do from a young age so for you to like watch a form of intimacy at 14 years old and be like what are this is so strange to watch them dance and like hug and be cordial like when you were younger did you ever have romantic relationships that you felt comfortable being overly affectionate yeah well actually so this is um i think at least for boys i don't i don't know i know that it's not just me i mean i actually was because i was starved for many kinds of intimacy the one kind that i understood didn't understand it was sexual and romantic intimacy so i mean i think as soon as those I was going to try to think of a word other than juices, but you know, those chemicals were flowing.

11:40That's, that's, that's when I just craved that. I mean, you know, and again, show me a teenager who doesn't really. I mean, I think it's, of course, quite typical, but I think particularly for, for people who grow up in homes where there isn't a lot of intimacy, I think what they crave is that, you know, you crave what you see on the, in the notebook or whatever. and we didn't have that then but you the titanic you know i'm not a romantic movie or romantic comedy person at all feels like you are but but see but the titanic or no it's a titanic isn't it it's not that yeah titanic cut the bow so titanic um like i loved and i didn't see it a bunch of everybody did but i just thought like i could good lord i wanted that you know that you want you love comes in so many forms so many forms and it's actually tragic for us all that we have conflated it so completely with just sex but you know i mean from a very young age that's what i wanted i think that also makes sense because because you didn't have anything like that at home then i think once you taste it and you like feel it okay we're these analogies the juices the juices just go ahead and reach over here for my tea and bring it on the long trip around fuck but i think then once you probably felt that you're like gonna crave it because it's like i can't get any of that at home whereas maybe someone like was like okay i've seen it i know it's out there again where once you this is i'm gonna go right there i want that thing yes you know yes yeah now being a father i'm curious if there were any like behaviors that you witnessed as a kid in your house that you are never want your kids to experience yeah well it would be just the it would be the um the vibe the the just the saying calling it coldness i think it feels a bit unforgiving to my parents it's it's not because it that sounds like there's um intent behind it you know an awareness but it just uh just uh there wasn't a lot of life at home there wasn't a lot of life but i get what you're saying i also think it's like as you get older i'm sure you've realized like it's weird when you have resentment of your childhood and then as you become a parent so i've heard it's like oh wow they were all it is they were really doing the best that they could yeah and it doesn't mean that you didn't experience what you experienced but it also puts more in perspective like it wasn't so fucking personal sometimes i can't speak for everyone's experience yeah i mean yeah there's of course plenty of nuance in there but the basic principle you're pointing to is what i was saying like that's all it is is like you're constantly as a parent you're constantly being brought in touch with oh that yeah i i didn't have that i mean you know i've said this elsewhere a few times um but the first time that i needed that i felt that I needed to say I'm sorry to my now four and a half year old I think he was three maybe freshly three um it was a minor moment he would not get in the car seat as any parent knows anybody who hasn't has kids is like oh shut up about the fucking car seats yeah is it really yeah it's like yeah it can be hard it's a battle it's really and by the way it's reasonable for them to not want to get in a car seat they're strapped in they can't and if they think it's going to be two hours like to them that's a lifetime that is a lifetime you see how many phases a kid a three-year-old goes through in two hours you want them to sit strapped in the entire time i mean so i'm with three-year-olds on this but i had to get him in and i and i started to get impatient you know go figure and um but the key thing to remember were for me like fatherhood parenthood until about two and a half it was like in terms of losing my patience like it didn't happen it didn't happen i'll lose patience with my wife hi baby sorry um but uh Love you so much.

15:54But with a child that small, I mean, they're just like, what are you going to do? So I noticed that I was losing my patience in a way that was like, I was speaking to him in a way that I'd never spoken to before, which is kind of short, you know? Like a little dickish, you know? I mean, he, let's not talk about his behavior. Dick of the century, okay? He was being crazy. But he's allowed to be. Yeah, he's three. You got to keep it together. You're the adult. yeah so so i was starting to like i was starting to take it like as though he's not three and that's what we all do as parents eventually you lose perspective and you're like treating them like somebody who's much older and that's not fair that's not fair to them at all um so i was being really impatient with him getting him into the car seat i don't at this point i don't remember what i i i think i definitely wasn't being like you know i wasn't doing that that's a bit rough but i was speaking in a way that was just you know not as loving dad yeah as you usually are and then i and then i think i realized that as i was doing it because it was a new thing um and and i just said i'm sorry

17:06i'm being really impatient with you aren't i and then he just went

17:14yeah and it immediately broke and i and i said you're right i don't like the way i was speaking to you you still have to go in the car seat yeah and i was like would you still gotta get in the car seat no no oh my god it was really it was like he relaxed so real though buckled them in and you guys went on your journey yeah see but when this happened i realized like oh you know in terms of my mom like she probably i don't i don't know i'm not sure but certainly in terms of my father i think i just just their generation the way they parented all of us i was just like oh that was new you know me apologizing to a three-year-old as his father like i was like that's new right you're like i taught myself that well my dad never taught me that right and that was a beautiful moment that was like you know that is beautiful because it means you're like changing generate generationally what you're gonna now instill in your kid and then if he ever has kids he hopefully will do that yeah

18:33you though talking about going at 12 years old to los angeles with your mom i feel like whenever people think about actors you sharing you know you're like i was chubby i was going through it my voice like i was insecure then people would be like so what the fuck are you talking about then you become an actor like people associated like actors who like why love the way that they look and like to look at themselves it's like a lot of vanity sure yeah but then i feel like in a beautiful way what are you talking about pen no but you know what i'm saying like and then i think the beauty of having podcasts like this is like you learn things about most people get into the arts because it's a way to like find themselves totally yeah a lot of times people pour themselves into it because they're running from something else absolutely so when you go to LA were you still quite insecure oh yeah oh yeah well the insecurity hadn't even really found its full expression until I moved here because I was 12 and you know I hadn't yet started making money in a in a in a livelihood a practice a craft that would come to depend more and more on the way that I looked how did you even get into acting so when we moved to that mountain outside of Issaquah having lost my cat wasn't enrolled in school because it was the end of the school year and so the some the long summer was ahead of us um again parents like not the tightest uh uh my mom clearly saw like oh this is we need something you know we need like neighbors our closest neighbor was a mile away like our our um driveway was like two dirt tracks up there it was like a real mountain that's why the cat died there's cougars and bears and all kinds of yeah i mean you're an only child you're sitting in a house your parents are basically mid-divorce you got no cat yeah you're not feeling too good about yourself yes thank you so just just to Thank you.

20:32No, it was awful. And then we need to find Penn something to do for the summer. So auditions. I don't know what the competition was like. No memory of that. I got the role. Winthrop, a music man. It's a significant role. He's a boy with a lisp who's very quiet and shy. I was very quiet and shy, but he comes out of his shell when he learns to play something in a band. um so i loved just the camaraderie of and mixed stages too you know it's like kids and adults and everybody in between and it was it was just like it's not like going to school at all it was it was really really exciting it was um and on opening night just getting that feedback you know the excitement of being on stage you know it creates stakes and structure which everybody I think needs a bit of to thrive like um I loved it I loved it I actually said that night like I want to do this for the for the rest of my life you know that little boy was not aware of all the implications or what it would take or that it was even that it was ever feasible that it was actually delusional and like basically not feasible um but yeah so I and and people very quickly and why they do this I don't know but if you're in any town close to like a major city like a satellite for LA like there's Seattle there's there's Florida like Tampa a lot of kids come from Florida there's other places maybe Chicago but if you're in a certain town people will say you should try going to LA I mean it's not good advice it's just not good advice why are you gonna make it you did are you gonna yeah let's see I mean it's I'm not you're like I'm the one 11 % Alex.

22:24But this is the thing though. It is to a degree a fluke. It just is. You think? I'm not saying there's no talent involved. I'm just saying those of us who make it are something of the exception that proves the rule. Because the rate of failure in this town is high. It's high. It's high. It's a bit tragically high for people who want to make art. They want to do things. They want to perform. And it's like, you know, it's to me, it's not just. It's not a meritocracy. You know what I mean? I don't know what industry would be, but. When do you think you started making money off of it? I know when I did.

22:57I was 12. Oh. I started working that summer. Off of acting? Yeah. Was there a point in your life where you turned into the breadwinner for your family? Yeah. Very early. How early? 15. How did that shift the dynamic? I mean, so not the whole family. And I wasn't, I mean, my mom was fully capable of working, but she needed to be present. So it was like this dynamic. I mean, I was financially independent. by 15. I wasn't always the breadwinner and but but but then you know by the time but like I've always I've always needed to and wanted to uh provide support for my parents since then. Yeah that's really nice.

23:34I feel like you then kind of from what I've researched like you went on to really do a lot of like the awkward nice guy roles like pretty consistent. When has that stopped? I guess it hasn't stopped until you became a murderer but. Yeah but he's an awkward nice guy. okay yeah that's actually fair there's kind of a through line even though he's a fucking psychopath but that through line is like pretty consistent right that's fair to say were you looking for those roles or did they naturally just come to you because it's a little bit of who you are wants to be no well so so here's the thing that's true starting at 20 years old so i had eight years of near financial independence professional work i was working i was tired of television by the time gossip group came around i famously said i don't know famously but i've said many times you know i initially turned the role down and i didn't and i didn't just like kind of turn it down i mean i said i said so grateful you thought of me i wish you well but no thanks and they went on to try and cast the whole thing and cast dan and and they and they and they evidently could cast everybody but but Dan but so you know by the time the point is not about Gossip Girl the point is that by the time I was 20 I was like I was feeling real disillusioned and dried up and tired of being in Hollywood of acting I've been doing it my entire since I was 12 when you're 20 years old and you've been doing something professionally since you were 12 that's your life that's like your whole life and I was I was yeah I I was you were done because you didn't like it anymore that also i just was not you know i came real close really close to like a number of great roles in these great independent films and i wouldn't get them um and i was like okay great but you know what this is i really wanted to try my hand at music that had been my passion since you know but the point is i was real uh i i had i had an a tiredness about me at 20 that i think is not typical for a 20 year old because i've been working for so long you know i feel like every time i've talked to like child actors that's something that is lost i think in in the way that we look at these young kids like i always look at like lindsey lohan i'm like it's incredible how long she worked while all of us were like picking our noses and like being in school and like doing fucking nothing essentially but like just being a child and so to have worked your whole youth and then into adolescence and then all of it like i'm sure you're like i never want to work another day in my life i'm so exhausted when you were supposed to be having fun you were working but then to turn down gossip girl is like what now we know what a success it was but at the time like were you also uninterested in the role that you were going to play or was it just because you were like i'm so fucking tired i don't want to do this anymore with all due respect and i mean i told the creators this at the outset so it's not and it's not no shocker like i was not interested and and that's you know that's just i think that's fair to say that's that's fair to say um that's what i have to say about that okay so obviously you can ask me more but no you obviously ended up changing your mind so like what changed well i was close to broke although that was not i was looking forward to like figuring that out I'd had a pretty Spartan year behind me I was enjoying my way of life but the future was real unknown and I think

27:30it's not like I could go live with my parents the stakes is high right so and you know a few people i mean my manager certainly spoke about it in a way that he thought it was a good idea um

27:53few key people close to me and then it was it was new york city getting to live in new york city where i've now lived since and which is my home and i'd always wanted to live there uh you know you also think about a show like that it's hard to grow beyond it i'm gonna be 40 next year wait i'm 30 you lose track at some point yeah where are we eight am i 38 i'm thinking i'm 38 uh so i'm gonna be 39 this year next year i will be 40 i will still be answering questions about this show i decided to do when i was 20 you know what i mean and whatever that is what it is like certainly that's fine but um it's it sets you on a certain track that you have to in a sense resist you have to learn how to work with it interface with it otherwise it just sort of takes you on its ride um so you know you're kind of playing you're taking a huge risk i think in a way actually you know if if it's going to set you up to do only some things and you're gonna have to fight to try and do other things you know i think that's so understandable for people like i get i think people in this industry really get that and i think people that are consumers don't see that whatsoever they're like there are going to be people that watch this and then are like pen what the fuck are you talking about you run the biggest show in the world like i will forever love you like oh my gosh that show i re-watch every year but to you i think a lot of actors understandably have that where like you don't want to be typecast into this like one thing that people think of you as right because then you want to you want to keep growing yeah you yeah you want to have some autonomy and you sign so also signing on to a television show what you do is you have to sign a six-year contract there's no other way to do it you don't you know you haven't seen any of those scripts you're just like all right so you know yeah i mean it's

30:07yeah i mean i chose to do it because it felt like it could be an exciting new experience and and i'm yeah no i mean look i'm grateful for it now it took but it took some time because i because keep in mind i started in a place where i was like tired disillusioned i was literally compared to the others like oddly i was like a veteran you know and i was just kind of like here we go this fucking show i mean i'd done like four series before that you know okay something that i love though is i think what we and this is goes past acting is like there are stages in your life where you have to have time to step away from it to have any bit of love and respect for what you did at that time there are people that look back at what they did in high school and they're like actually fucking stab me and kill me before you even bring that up please look away but then all of a sudden you look back and you're like oh wow yeah with now more perspective and time i like look back and i can see positives from that so let's pay a little bit of you know respect to dan yeah yeah we'll go back to the child i mean how long we got no no we're gonna go back to we're gonna get into trauma we're gonna get all of it dan's gonna be a breeze Dan is a little freeze.

31:22You're going to be like, let's talk more about Dan Humphrey. Rufus? Okay. In what ways did you relate at all to Dan Humphrey? I mean, it's not that hard. He's like, he's, isn't he kind of, he's not quiet, is he? He kind of was, but then. He's TV quiet. Yeah. The same way he's TV, like ugly and poor. He's the quiet, ugly, poor kid. Like, okay, guys. Sure. Sure. Sure. Talk to me about the sideburns at the time. Oh my goodness. No. If I could have seen in real life the side of my head, I guarantee you, I would have never, never. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not just like give Dan his flowers. Let's give young Penn his a little bit of something here too.

32:09you know you know in the early 2000s it was like it was like boot cut jeans with the low rise waist

32:20um there's a there's a look to a sideburn that i always wanted like the second i could grow facial hair which happened to be early you know it was like i i wanted them and um it was just an aesthetic thing that's like you i only see my face from here you know i only see just this little bit of you know this little bit of a little bit of contouring it's like gives me some age right have a baby face always wanted to look older now those sideburns did why didn't anybody say they were so large and thick and yeah and the width well and by the way i didn't like i didn't i didn't like do that that's the way they are yeah yeah but they were kind of like pronounced because you didn't have a beard well right but because i had to shave every day on that show You know, it's like I was never allowed for gradation or a little bit of growth.

33:11So it's like, look, this is me starting to shave here. To the point, though, that someone could assume that they were a prop. Like you stuck those bad boys on every day. No, they were so pronounced. I mean, who allowed that? So many people allowed that. It looked amazing. I definitely focused on it quite often. And like the first season, that shit was popping. Oh, my God. Okay, so we relate a little bit to him. How are you different than Dan? I mean, in every way. Yeah. Fuck him. We love Dan. Do you? He went through his phases where I would be like, lonely boy. Like, I do love you now. And then I'd be like, Dan, shut the fuck up.

33:52Like, when he dated Georgina, I was like, you're so done in my eyes. I hate you. Can I ask you why? I'm like, it's Georgina. And meanwhile, you're like, Serena, like, I love her. She's great. and I wanted to just yeah but then you came back around to be honest I can barely remember those storylines like there's a lot of them I'll walk you through them don't worry we've got a lot here there's a lot of them um who's worse Dan or Joe well that's not I mean it's Joe I'm sorry was was was Dan masturbating in the street and strangling women I'm sorry to say it's so like pronounced but i mean why do why am i everybody's like he needs to chill i'm like no bro you watched it it's what he does why why when i say it is it worse than watching it happen the worst joe did or what's his face dan the worst dan did was what's his name shut the fuck up the worst dan did was i mean he did like we know what he did what he did was sociopathic just in terms of being gossip girl sorry yeah no actually sociopathic can we talk about that yeah where were you what were you wearing where were you sitting or were you standing what was the energy in the room when you found out you were gossip girl i was in the hair and makeup trailer room don't remember what i was wearing jfk was not assassinated on that day it was just me being Gossip Girl.

35:21But I remember just being like, I kind of like, huh. Okay. Like, if I'm trying to math it, it's tough. All right. And we've got to shoot tomorrow. Cool. Okay. You know, I mean, I found out real late. Real late. You have to tell me who you think should have been Gossip Girl.

36:02you have to tell me who you think should have been gossip girl it wouldn't have made sense for anybody we all wanted it to be dorota without a doubt yeah dorota would have slapped they needed it to be a series regular sorry what about rufus that little needed it they needed to be one of the core six otherwise nobody cares oh my god you get to call yourself one of the core six i am i'm sorry that's like a badge of honor i'm not just the core six i'm gossip girl maybe i did it right it it's on the wall like that you are daddy i am gossip girl these are facts okay facts that's just like the promo right soundbite yeah i just gave you i just gave you everything you wanted thank you're welcome um okay we when i interviewed nate archibald aka chase crawford he told me that he and ed westwick would like throw these rooftop parties at their apartment did you ever get invited and did you ever go did i get invited of course it wasn't like they were sending out invites yeah i mean but i didn't go much i was not a partier okay what were are you doing during your like rise to fame in new york city sitting at home yeah um good question

37:15i just had a different friend circle okay i did what were you doing like would you go out good question i mean it didn't go out as much where did you live um gramercy you weren't going to one oak i did go to one oak way after everybody i'd heard about one oak a lot i remember the first I remember the first time that I had to pay for a bottle. And this was years later, years, years, years later. I took somebody out. They really wanted to go out. They're from Thailand, right? They wanted to party like they saw. And I was like, okay, we'll go. I go to someplace I don't even remember the name of that I've been to many times.

37:52I bought a bottle and I was like, I'm sorry, come again? What? Wait, whoa. You know that meme of the guy being like, and the math is flying like this i was just like so not only have i been getting free bottles my whole 20s completely unaware again we're talking about upholding the artifice this is this is i was just like people pay for this this much and you could go to the grocery store and get a bottle of gray goose for like it's criminal i i i was like yeah i feel good about not having done this a bunch. I mean, stunned me. It stunned me. I was like, people have to save up to waste it this quickly.

38:39I mean, good Lord. Wait, but did you have people like, as you had from Thailand, did you have people thinking because of your life in New York City, being this it guy, you had this access and this lifestyle that you like weren't living in Gramercy? Yeah, certainly for Gossip Girl. Certainly because of, you know the early 2000s celebrity city thing um yeah i mean i think i think well look you know and crime your river it's not a big deal i'm what i say is as a witness to it not as a complaint but i think one of the aspects of celebrity that you deal with constantly is just like everybody just thinks you're somebody you're not and you know again so that's so i think that's just always so how long did you do gossip girl um six years for six years you're living in new york city you're in your early 20s and i feel like a lot of the character that you were being you were kind of had parallels right you were like living in new york city sure you were also living in new york city at the time for the show you were dating Blake Lively you were dating Serena on the show did you feel like you were able to like separate your actual job from your reality and actually able to like grow in your 20s or did it all feel like it was kind of merged I mean that's a great question because it was it was the struggle you know the difference between there are many differences between film and television one of them is that when you do a film, you do it once, you know, and you kind of give it your all.

40:31And then you move on, whether you want to or not, you know, you do.

40:39When you do a television show, you are,

40:44you're doing it constantly.

40:48because of the nature of that show and because of celebrity culture at that time especially it was like you know i remember like you know suddenly the influx of interviews being asked about like i remember doing something for you know cosmo girl or something that's a thing right is it is it oh girl like it's like the younger version yeah wasn't it yeah yeah like teen vogue just come out you know what i mean like i remember doing interviews for those kinds of publications and being asked about like you know dating advice or like by the way like think i've been on one date in my life like spent most of my time just sort of either in a relationship or not um and i remember just the feeling of not knowing it's it's but it is this this it's this thing you feel like you're constantly even though no one may be actually asking you to do this you feel like you're constantly needing to prove yourself in some manner otherwise what are you doing i mean you you know what is what is the space this you know this kind of thing has evolved over the course of however long you know but we didn't have podcasts like this back then where you could explore things at length and depth you know they were looking for a quick sound bite and it was just like it was just like uh-huh okay yeah all right okay all right uh-huh it's like you know you don't interfacing in that space can actually feel really crazy and you you you suddenly feel the need to perform and you're just like why can't i just say something fucking normal you know like why can't and so what starts to happen when you're in this one role for a long time the the you know the aspect of celebrity being a part of it a huge part of it there there is not enough separation i think for anybody you're seen as this person you're called their name out on the street um you also constantly have to be that person at work um and i was 20 i was 21 22 so like i didn't have the emotional maturity to understand to how to differentiate myself just in terms of self-worth like what people seem to think of dan seemed to be what people thought of me and now i had enough sense enough intelligence enough self-worth enough just you know like i wasn't like losing myself but it bothered me well and i feel like that makes a lot of sense too because even as you're saying that i'm thinking about like very specific people could look back at their time in like hannah montana for example that is the biggest mind fuck for miley where it's Like you're playing yourself, but you're secretly a pop star and then you actually become a pop star.

43:35Like you guys were playing these characters that were actually physically living in New York City. And it wasn't like you guys were like superheroes. It was like an actual thing that people could believe. You're like, excuse me, Dan, again, gossip girl, bitch. But like, you know what I'm saying? It's like people, it's easier to believe the Friday Night Lights characters and the Wintry Hill characters. like those were just normal characters that people could believe you are as opposed to this like you're playing a doctor i guess even still alan pompeo was like people went into fucking surgery because of me but like people merge it too much and so when you're walking and you're like am i more like this or am i this character it can get fucking confusing definitely how did you approach your dating life in your 20s okay so going back to what we said earlier about uh uh that need for intimacy and really wanting a love to transcend the body truly i mean that's what we all want but um never had an approach i i i've had a handful of long relationships and that's that's about the extent of it you know i really did not date uh tried found it not what's the word I don't even know I mean fulfilling satisfying I don't know it's just I was not good at what felt like dating is um dating is a bit of a performance I think right isn't it like I mean it's initially like that's and I think that just like really stressed me out um um i never had an approach so trying to like i i really longed for that kind of connection that kind of intimacy uh i think just as anybody else you know kind of something that my show you has been about which is like the the the really toxic misconceptions we have like modern love mythology the way that a relationship should be the way that you should feel um like it does to watch Titanic you know what I mean like that like so I so I wanted that and so it's so I also had a very long and difficult relationship in my teen years um that marked me and I actually remember thinking when I got out of it at 19 I was just like that was a way to start it all I wonder what effects it's going to have on me you know i wonder so i um but then i found myself in my 20s three different long-term relationships the third one was with my wife and it's you know can we talk a little bit about modern dating culture because i know like you're kind of saying you have obviously very strong opinions i i don't know any the truth is i don't know anything about what it's like actually but i can only speak as a person who hears about it.

46:29Okay. Casual dating. Yeah. What do you feel about that for people? Here's a platform upon which to skewer yourself. No, just go. Sure.

46:56casual dating what do you feel about that for people is it ever casual

47:07show me somebody who really really truly is casual about it i'll wait i'll wait not that they act casual about it that they feel casual about it i'll wait please i would like to see it in the comments i think that some women would ask back to you pen i wish he didn't feel like it was casual i'm telling you that he doesn't understand the ways in which it is not casual for him either because he may just actually be like oh i don't like you what about that that whole thing yeah that's sorry so i you know i am sorry to women on that one i can't apologize for men but i'm just saying like that is that is the whole like what is that too like he's just not that into you that whole thing that like what that okay so if i if i venture something here one of the reasons i i didn't like dating was because of what it seemed like you know you know young men boys men need to sort of how they need to behave and act which always felt real corrosive and toxic and coarse and just calloused um at a very young age if i'm representative of anything that can be generalized it seemed that it was important and necessary for me as a man to like you know it's a such a dumb old term that so many young people be like what did you just say but like so your wild oats you know that kind of thing i don't know What would you say now?

48:51I sound like an 80-year-old. What would you say? Wait, say that again? So, I'm not going to say it again. You're like, okay, say it one more time for me, please. And make eye contact with the camera. Wait, I actually don't know if you said so. So your or ones. So your oats. Your wild. It sounds so dumb. So your wild oats. When I have to say it slowly and break it down. So do wild oats like to have sex with a lot of women. That's probably how they would say it. Sure. To have sex with a lot of women. Yeah, like they're fucking around. Yes. Not the oats. It's more just they fuck around. Well, we think of it like this.

49:32You're a gardener and you've got a handful of seed and you're just casting it out into the wilderness. Yes. Okay. Now, see, this makes more sense. Maybe someone will start saying that in Gen Z and you're going to trend it back upwards. Okay. I might have that power. maybe maybe okay so how do you feel about casual sex not now obviously i know again again show me anyone who's able to have it truly and i'm saying i'm not just saying who does it yeah plenty of people do it show me someone who's actually what about it is casual what about it is casual again i'll wait i think it's a great question to pose to the girls listening yeah people obviously like always say relationships are hard they're hard work they're a lot of work but what does that tangibly look like to you to work on a relationship i feel like you have to always be learning new levels of listening because when you get past the you know it's anywhere from the six months to two-year mark when the juices so to speak the chemicals have like sort of run their course you may have had something that could be like wildly intoxicating in some cases that's true in some cases it may be less or somewhere in between but you know studies show about six to six to 24 months that runs its course then you have to enter into a different kind of relationship one that we don't see a lot you know we don't see it modeled a lot hardly ever um you know for reasons that have to do more with like what it takes to tell a good story than than reality you know in movies and tv and books and stuff so then you have to think of to yourself like well what what is a relationship for not just like what am i in this for what is a relationship for um that's also a question i pose what is a relationship for not just what is it doing for you what is it what is what are relationships for you know um and at some point i think you just have to realize that like you you're developing your own narratives and biases that have to be kind of constantly re-shaped reach you know you have to check in with them and so it just means it's just another level of listening you you know you and then once you get into parenting it's it's it just adds like a level of complexity that's that's really beautiful and rewarding so you know when you're when you're parenting actually sometimes it can be really practical stuff like we have to schedule time for any kind of intimacy we want to have like if we want to go out that needs to be in that calendar and you have to find child care you have to it's all this stuff it's like it's it's very real um and that can actually be a surprising amount of work like because i was going to ask i know obviously your wife has a child from a previous relationship and when you were starting to date that takes another level of commitment and stability and like how did you know that was something you were ready for well i didn't and i mean i think so like the when we first met it was kind of it was immediate and before we had time to think i think we just we wanted to be together in in the deepest way and i wanted to be there for her son um in whatever way was best his father's always been in his life um

53:16but then the cultural dating laws which i never abided by i never understood but you were pressuring me i was like i need to sow my wild oats what am i doing with this woman with a child um but you know i was 28 i think maybe 27 and i really did think is it right for me you know to be to be getting into a relationship with a woman who has a child like that you know so the stakes were always significant there we both felt that and so we both actually after an immediate intense connection and like not thinking about it we then sort of like you know we need to think about this more and what I only felt that I was ready once I felt confident to like leave all that all these notions about what it is to be a man what it is to date what I needed to do who I needed to be sexually once I was able to start really leaving that behind that's beautiful I also love like just like hearing the way that you talk about your relationship it's so nice to hear again almost back to the way that you're parenting about like listening and apologizing and doing things that are like not typically what you would think like a man is leading with I think it's really refreshing to hear because I know even you've talked about with your wife that you guys like early on in your relationship took breaks and I think like so much of what you've shared is quite helpful to people because I know there's people listening who are trying to figure it out and I think people obviously look up to you so when you're more open obviously with what you're comfortable i think it's nice to hear when you are like willing to share that kind of detail about your relationship because i know that there's people like holy shit can i be a good mother father to another child you know what i mean yeah it's it's um there's a spiritual component to this which is really the thing that is that allowed it to happen so she and i you know we happen to sort to become sober around the same time we were picking up meditation and and prayer and really trying to live with a different sort of framework you know independent of one another but this was happening kind of at the same time and i think that was what even created like the opportunity or the conditions for us to be like we're dealing with a lot of ways of thinking that are not our own some of those ways of thinking are putting a lot of pressure on us to conform in a way that we've seen before to either be together in a way that we've seen or to not be together in a way that we've seen and so and i think i think like maybe the world is ready for a lot of new relationships like where people are discovering something and i think in some way like we did we discovered something uh like if i if i had advice for young people in it risks being simplistic you could take it a lot of ways and i guess it could be misused but like i think young people now we we waste a lot of time worrying about relationships rather than like being in them and trying we waste a lot of time in fear and hesitation and trying to imagine what the other person's thinking like when is that ever going to happen you don't know you've never known stop trying to act like you've ever known never once have you read that person's mind it's not going to start now you know i mean like i don't know just just the way that relationships function at least from a pop culture perspective i think it's like so crazy dysfunctional you know and like so no it's a good point it's like definitely uh it's definitely become something that i think people almost like aren't even noticing and it's like these games and it's like we we don't have to do any of that and i definitely felt like i did it i was a part of the cycle i was like in it heavy that's how i literally started this show it's just like you don't say yeah well the name yeah i was like oh we're gonna flip it on its head and we're gonna like do what men do to us and then eventually when i met my husband doesn't met my husband and I was like oh my god I'm gonna call him daddy yeah no but not sorry not never I will always scratch that from the record strike it strike it take it out um I want to talk to you about you though because I do think there's a lot of themes in it that are it's all this kind of yeah yeah yeah Joe is the embodiment of not realizing any of this before we get to that is it true you also almost turn this roll down yeah it's my thing Penn what why did you almost turn this down same reasons different different you know are you overacting are we done am i over acting is this your retirement podcast am i overacting yeah i i'm um no i mean i think of anything i've i've i feel like i'm finally coming of age as an actor maybe we'll see well this is the last season so yeah but i'm not done you're gonna keep going yeah okay so you you eventually were like yes i'm gonna do it you said before that it was not i should say it was not such a resolute no okay i was interested in the premise far more because it was yeah it was a different kind of role i mean people love to draw the similarities and i'm responsible for drawing some of them between dan and joe but i mean they're not the same like i like joe is the show he is the lens through which everything happens so being in that position is a completely different experience as an actor you get to do a whole lot more um and because of the depths to which he goes there's just a lot a lot more of the spectrum to to explore as an actor so it was a you know i knew it was an incredible opportunity when i when i saw it at the same time i wasn't sure that i wanted to give expression to this kind of character for an undisclosed period of time had it been a film be like all right right three to six months done i do though as i was just listening to you say that though it just made me realize like i which is incredible for you as an actor like i do think this now is like holding a light to gossip girl where it's like it does you now are really known yeah you could be on us one side of the street and someone's gonna know you as gossip girl and then the other side is gonna be dan like uh sorry you and i actually feel like that is the hardest uphill battle to like we were just saying to do to have people not just think of you as one character.

59:51Yeah, so now I just want them to think of me as two. Now you got two. Now we're going three. Dan and Joe. Yeah, yeah. Now we need another basic name for the third. Who's the third going to be? Dan, Joe, and? Tim. Tim. Matt. Matt. I said Tim, but yeah. Carl. No. That's not basic. I hate that. That's not. Okay. A huge theme is obviously toxic masculinity. How have you approached being a character that is like completely toxic, I mean beyond toxic. Is it a weird head space to be in? Sometimes no. I mean, at this point, like, you know, I'm done, which is crazy by the way. Wow. It became real easy, even early on.

1:00:39But easy even the way like, you know, you might be a marathon runner, but by the end of a marathon, you're like, I'm about to fall over, you know, that's the way it was easy. It was, I mean, by the end of every season, by the middle of every season i usually had back problems because all the expression of rage is just like a lot um it was like running yeah it was like running a marathon it's highly athletic every time very physical you know a lot of not a lot of speaking on camera so a lot of just you know coming into my body physicality of performance was really lovely to explore over the years and uh and then the voiceover was interesting too finding that i feel like i really found it in the sixth episode of season one um where that episode was almost all voiceover and then silent acting um and i actually had a mask of prosthetics on uh because he'd been badly beaten at the end of that of the previous episode okay so uh what was your question no he's just asking like is it weird to get into this character that's like really fucked up so so so actually i would say in some ways it's quite fun there's levels to it day-to-day basis kind of fun kind of taxing or or it can be very taxing really interesting moments of strangeness that are fun to explore overall it's been quite a quite a an endurance test in a way because because of just the level of commitment that it takes and then choosing to speak about him in a way publicly which i think like just adds a level of responsibility to the whole thing so you know it's just it's like it's a it's a it's a it's a lot the final season do you think fans are going to be happy with the ending i mean it's not without it's you know anything is gonna you cannot land a six season or five five season series you're gonna fumble here and there but i think where it really matters now unfortunately here i can't talk about it in a way that's like more substantive you know um because i wouldn't want to spoil it for you either please don't um but it's I think it's very satisfying for a lot of meaningful reasons okay I'm gonna end the episode the same way you end some of yours sure if you could go back and talk to your 12 year old self what would you say I would want to give him a really long hug I would want to be the the the man the the male figure the role model in his life that he somehow did not seem to have like up until way too late um i want to hold him first so that as you know that that lady got got bruno marr's song it's been stuck in my head so much i want to hold you just for a while and die with a smile okay um maybe you're gonna bring the band back yeah fuck acting uh i would love to play music but you know i gotta find the right people for that um i i would i would hold him just for a while and and i would have to get back into the time machine so then i would die with a smile i don't know that i could say you know what a 12 year old wants to hear what a 12 year old needs to hear and will actually listen to is not necessarily what we would say so i don't know you know i mean the the essence of what everyone always says is basically like it's going to be okay like you're going to be okay and i would want to communicate that but i don't know how he would hear it so i think i would just hold him and just let him feel like not only that you're okay but like this is the point if you haven't if there's anything you're missing if there's anything you're feeling a way that you're hurting this is the point you have to learn somehow yeah you know it's beautiful yeah pen thank you so much for coming on caller Daddy that was truly a pleasure I appreciate it it's really nice podcasting with podcasters yeah right so much easier 10 out of 10 thank you thank you thank you so much