Phoebe Gates & Sophia Kianni: Rebounds, Roommates & Running a Business

0:00Daddy gang, welcome back to another episode of Call Her Daddy. I am so excited for you to watch this episode. We have Phoebe Gates and Sophia Chiani on this week's episode. They just launched their podcast called The Burnouts with Unwell, and they are our most recent sign to unwell. If you guys are going to become fans of them today, I am just excited for you to listen to their chaotic stories, their best friends, their business partners, and they are officially unwell. The first time I ever met them was on a random Zoom. We had a mutual friend put us together. They were like, you guys are in complete different industries, but maybe you guys will hit it off.

0:37And one thing led to another. And we recognized, wait, you guys are launching a sustainable fashion company. You're young women in your 20s living in New York. You're figuring life out. Yeah, I want to listen to you guys and hear what you have to say. And so we launched their podcast. They also just launched their company called Fia. And they really have become quickly two of my favorite people. They're so funny together. their banter as business partners and best friends is everything. So without further ado, I'm so excited for you to get to know them. Let's get into it. What is up, daddy gang?

1:14It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Phoebe Gates and Sophia Kiani, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you for having us. Phoebe and Sophia have been up since 2 a.m., 3 a.m.? 5 a.m. Okay, your company just launched today, Phea. How are you guys feeling? I feel like we just birthed the child that we've been, like, creating for the last year. It feels nuts. I'm, like, really excited, though. I'm kind of freaking out a little bit. Launch day for anyone that has a business, anyone first day of school, like, a birthday party. I don't even know what the feeling is, but there's just this excitement, and I want to get into everything.

1:52But first, I do, though, want people to get to know you better today. because this is kind of like now your reintroduction to the world through the lens of Call Her Daddy and the Daddy Gang. So we're going to do it a little Call Her Daddy style. I want to go back to the beginning for you guys in terms of you two met at Stanford. You're in college. You meet. Can you tell me your first impressions of each other and how you actually met? OK, so we met at a football game, right? And Sophia, I was pretty intimidated by because she worked for the UN. Her Instagram basically looked like this girl was a professional award receiver.

2:27OK, it's like Times, New York Times, UN saving the world with her nonprofit. And so I obviously was super jealous of her. I'm not going to lie. And I thought she was a little bit of a freak because she put something on her story that was like sober squad, love college, like love being sober. And I was like, well, she sounds like a whole lot of fun. And so when I first met her, I was like, and she's hot, too. I hate her so much. that was my first impression of Sophia was honestly I feel like a lot of like jealousy I was like this girl's pretty cool but it really took I want to say a year for us to to bond and it was frankly an accident because there was another girl we were supposed to room with and she ended up living with her boyfriend so we end up getting screwed and we have to live with each other and I'm like oh great sober squad and me can't wait for an awesome year of talking about sustainability I'm like throwing away my plastic water bottles like hide in the sheen shirt I have and I didn't even know this You hid the Shein shirts?

3:21I did. I threw them all the way. I got recyclable bottles for you. Wow. Thank you. Thank you, Phoebe. Well, I was like, okay, I am in my bag and I am here on a mission. I'm going to graduate from Stanford. I'm going to law school. Like I'm bossed up. This irrelevant person does not matter. No, I'm joking. Okay. Then we go, we got dinner one night because we find out we're going to be rooming together. And we're talking and she'd been dating her boyfriend for about like five years. You dated for like half a decade. Four years. Whoa. It was four years. Five years sounds crazy. Almost half a decade.

3:53And we're at dinner and I was like, it's very clear to me your parents are getting divorced. And she was like, how do you know that? And I was like, just your emotional state, everything you're talking about. Because I had gone through, my parents had had a very, very public divorce. And I really couldn't tell many people about it, especially because it was going on for so long in our household before it was announced. And so I really felt like this built up pressure and I could just see that in her. And that was the moment. Then we end up sitting and talking for four hours together. And I'm like, OK, honey, you need to dump your boyfriend, though, because we had I had just gone through a breakup.

4:23And she was like, me and my boyfriend, we're getting married. Like, I'm going to be a senator. It's going to be incredible. Yes. Oh, my God. So really, it was so crazy because we become roommates. We don't really know each other at all. We're like randomly. We had that one dinner. It was a heart to heart. And you were a little mad at me because I said you needed to break up with your. I did. And I was delusional. And I was like, this bitch is trying to sabotage me. She doesn't realize he's my husband. Whatever. She was in her bag. of course why did you think he she needed to break up with him he was like i just think if you were a senator it'd be hard for the kids and i'm like what kids and also how is that how you're gonna react to this like that is so negative but i'm still delusionally believing he's my childhood sweetheart whatever we're gonna get married and then me and phoebe are talking she's like you're gonna break up with him i'm like she's literally trying to sabotage me fast forward we're roommates this was actually before we're roommates this is like lore we're roommates i've very recently broken up with him.

5:16I'm basically like sobbing, trying to keep it together. I'm not in my bag at all. I'm a mess. The bag has fallen off. And Phoebe's like, are you okay? What's wrong? And I'm like, we did break up. And she's like, I knew it. But then she actually ends up being the most incredible person on the planet. Like the most supportive friend gives me such good advice. And I was like, whoa, I love this girl. Like we actually, and I'm like fake tanning at 2am. I'm butt naked. She's talking to me. We're talking for hours. And I'm like, this is my soul sister. We really just got along instantly after I stopped being like a robot and I broke down my walls and I just opened up and I actually talked about what was going on.

5:53And we talked about like, yeah, the divorces, the ex-boyfriends, like we realized how much we had in common. It was amazing. The fact that you guys kind of went from like enemies to lovers is kind of iconic. It was a true arc. It was a true arc. I love how Phoebe, you said, which I think is like a very relatable thing for women. It's like, OK, I was jealous and I thought she had all this. how did you go from feeling like competitive jealous to all of a sudden being like wait I actually can like mutually have a good relationship with this person and not feel like I have to compete because I feel like especially being at such like a high level school and you guys both wanting to have such successful careers like where do you think the competitiveness kind of kind of died out a little bit I think honestly it's not about it I mean for me there was I had to find myself first because right I was so insecure I was going into Stanford I wanted to be pre-med because I knew my sister was pre-med and I wanted to do that better.

6:45And figuring out, you know, I'm still figuring myself out, but having confidence in myself and my own decisions was a big thing. And now in the company, each having our own lanes. And then I realized I was like, well, we're both very competitive people. What if instead of like this being against each other, like it could be together. And I think that's the thing is it's not like that has gone away, but it's, we just drive each other so hard. We're both like foot to the gas pedal. And also seeing that, like, frankly, you know, I was asleep in my bed and I hear one night Sophia in front of the mirror completely by herself go, this fake tan is developing wonderfully.

7:18Wakes me up so loud. Wakes me up. She's saying it over and over to herself. Crazy person. And I open my door and I see her butt naked in front of the mirror like this just by herself. No boys are over there. and that was the like I think finding out and really humanizing her for me was the biggest thing was gaining confidence and then humanizing her and then being like wait what if we took this like competitive energy and then brought it together to actually like build something and now we've birthed Fia. I am obsessed with you being like the moment I knew is when she was naked in front of the mirror just really like relishing in her fake tan.

7:52Can you tell me the story though, Sophia, of you made up in college that you had an assistant. So in college, I discovered that I'm doing public speaking and you're supposed to get paid when you public speak and I need to pay my Stanford tuition. So I'm like, hey, like, can you give me a hundred dollars to do this speech? Everyone laughs at my face. They're like, absolutely not. So I'm like, okay, well, how can I get people to pay me? And one of my friends goes, well, you can have a fake assistant make it a man and make him negotiate your deals for you and I'm like that's so psychotic you're a genius I'm gonna do that that is so smart so I create like Kobe Sophia team at gmail.com or something I have a friend named Kobe I'm so paranoid I'm like I'm gonna put you on the phone if anyone ever asks you're my assistant okay he's like you're psychotic but I'm like it's gonna work so Kobe every time someone emails me I'm like looping in my assistant Kobe to take it from here Kobe's a hard ass he's like Sophia has spoken at all these places her rates are this and this he starts out with like a thousand dollars he's like she's gonna speak for a thousand dollars I'm like shitting my pants I'm like everyone's gonna think I'm a fraud this is so much money they're like done absolutely whatever Miss Keanu desires I'm like I am Miss Keanu now I am Miss Keanu now this is crazy you writing as Kobe being like a thousand dollars I'm pressing send I could see you out like panicking walking around your room.

9:15I was so paranoid. I would change the way that Kobe did his grammar to not sound like me. I would capitalize weirdly. Then when I had to loop myself back in, I would talk and sign off my emails in a different way. I had a whole elaborate scheme going on. And then I was telling Phoebe, I eventually got in way over my head. I promoted to my chief of staff because I was like 1000. Let's try 5000. Like, let's keep upping the mistakes. We actually had a guest on the burnouts recently. And she's like, I don't know if you remember, but I actually talked to Kobe when you were in college. And I'm literally like about to die of embarrassment.

9:52I'm genuinely so embarrassed. And she's like, you looped in Kobe. And then you were like, Sophia would love to do this, but you need to cover her travel and accommodations. And she also needs a speaking stipend. And I'm like so embarrassed. I am actually about to die. And she was like, honestly, at the time I was like, I don't think a college student would have an assistant but i love this for her and honestly this does make sense like i will and she paid me she literally paid me paid for my flights whatever because of kobe no this is genius i think it's so genius also the biggest factor that i took from this which i wouldn't have thought of is like that you made it a man i know because when a man is like no this is like it's just the world we live in and it was so smart of you to be like i'm gonna advocate for myself through a fake man and look how much I can get out of this fucking man that's Kobe that is genius it's so that's a good hack it's a really good if anyone is listening boom have a male fake assistant oh my god this is genius do you guys have any other like hacks that you can share with the daddy gang in business that are like little tricks unhinged okay I told Phoebe I was gonna take this to the grave with me because I genuinely also but we agreed like I wanted to gatekeep it because it's such a good So when I got into Stanford, I was like, oh my God, I need to apply for scholarships.

11:09Like I need to have scholarships to pay for college. I'm applying for these scholarships and they all have this section where it's like include links about yourself if there are articles about you. And I'm like, the fuck, how the hell do you have an article written about you? That's so crazy. So I'm like, okay, how do I get a journalist to write an article about me? And I, you know, I, I use this thing called rocket reach. You can find anyone's email anyway. So I'm emailing all these journalists. Obviously they're like, who is this psychotic 19 year old trying to pitch herself that she's so embarrassing.

11:35I was so embarrassing. So I'm like, okay, this isn't working. I need another way. I go on Twitter and go look at these journalists. And by the grace of God, I see this one journalist and she posts this thing that's like hashtag journal request, looking for a source to speak about climate change, something like that. And I'm like, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I slide into her DMs. I email her whatever. First time I am ever in a story. And I'm like, there must be more of this. I go to this hashtag, hashtag journal request. It's like hundreds of journalists every single day. They're posting, looking for people to interview for things.

12:09And I'm like, I am going to email every single person who is doing this. And I am going to have links. Correction, Kobe emailed every single person. Sorry, yeah, Kobe's emailing them. I'm going to email all of these people and I'm going to have articles to link in my scholarship application. And let me tell you, my friends all were like, are you famous or something. Do you have a PR person? Like, how are you every single week? If Phoebe's like professional award receiver. Yeah. Because I engineered it. Like it was literally like every week I am DMing these people. I'm emailing these people, whatever, because I'm like, I need links to put in these scholarship applications.

12:42And fast forward, I think the most important thing to say is I ended up going on this interview live on TV because of a journal request and they thought I was a good fit. So I go on, I talk about my climate change background. I talk about my climate change nonprofit, my UN work, whatever. And I swear to God, it was like a miracle. These people emailed me and said, we run this scholarship organization. We have closed applications for the season, but we heard your story. We thought it was so amazing. We would love to extend you an invite to apply for a scholarship. And I'm like, this cannot be real.

13:15And I apply and I got the scholarship. And it was all because of this fucking journal request hack. Sophia, I feel like that is so what people need to hear also today of like sometimes you just have to put yourself out there even as like embarrassing as it can feel even if you feel like you're faking it and you're just like getting yourself in the door because you are qualified and you do deserve if people are going to pay you that amount of money even though you felt awkward to ask for it or when you went to get the scholarship even though you had to bust through certain doors and like do like random things to get there.

13:52I feel like that is a great hack for people to be like, go for it in any way you can. And there is no fucking shame. You have to create your own luck. That's the reality. Can we talk about you guys then finally deciding to work together? Because you're obviously talking about you guys had your things. You were talking pre-med. You're talking about all of this. Then you guys eventually come to be like, I think we want to work together. Can you talk about how you decided? When did you guys come together and be like, let's make this so I'm on my journal request wave because I'm doing my stuff in women's reproductive health so I was focusing on like access to birth control access to abortion etc after Roe v.

14:29Wade was overturned and so I'm all in this mindset of like what if we work together on something you know joint activism me because that's what we were both interested in at the time and so our first idea together wasn't even going to be a company we wanted to create like a smart bluetooth tampon low-key like an aura ring for your pussy we realized very quickly there was no monetization model behind it. We didn't know how the hell we would do it. We honestly didn't know what it would really do. But that kind of kickstarted this like crazy, I want to say almost manic like sense of like, let's just come up with an idea, lock ourselves in our dorm room for a week and like see what we can create.

15:04We came up with, I'm going to be honest with you, the dumbest ideas for the first like month. There were rumors spread all around campus that we had fallen off the earth, that we had fallen in love with each other. And so, but as we keep building, the one thing we came back to was like our own experience of, okay, we're roommates. We're always arguing over clothes. And frankly, like it's kind of bullshit that the shopping environment hasn't developed in the last 10 years. Like how come I'm on a site and I don't know if I should buy an item or not? Why is an AI able to tell me, hey, this is a good deal or this is not a good deal?

15:34Where's my little shopping assistant? And so we were like, what if we could create a shopping assistant or a shopping hack, be it your Kobe for shopping? So we were like, what if we did something like with our names together, Fia. And that's how the idea was originally born. But it took a lot of bad ideas. I'm not going to lie. Was there any hesitation because you guys are now best friends to be like, we're actually going to get in business together or no? Was that no hesitation? We did a day where we wrote down our strengths and weaknesses and that was brutal. You had to write about each other.

16:03Oh, we did our own and then we did each other's. Yeah. Getting in business with a friend is obviously like there is a risk, but I think it's also there's an upside to like, it's kind of similar to maybe how I feel kind of with Matt, where it's like you guys trust each other. We don't know how you do it with Matt. We talk about that all the time. Really? That we can never do it with our boyfriends ever in a million years. We're like, this is so much easier because I don't know how you don't take it home. I would go crazy. I think we just have found this like weird balance where we know how sacred both elements are.

16:36And it's like the minute we can tell one of us is like burnt out, we're like, let's stop talking about work. But we also just like it's our passion we love it like i don't feel like it's work so and then the minute it does feel like it's too much then we're like okay stop but i think it's beautiful that you guys have found this like perfect rhythm well perfect yeah yeah you guys are still figuring out right like it's not perfect that people don't realize though is so one thing i'll say is every time we do an interview they always want like us to hate each other they're always asking if it's especially if we interview individually they'll always ask me what do i hate about sophia what does she hate about me it's so fucked it's weird really want like the beef between the two women i think which i think is really interesting because you see in all narratives like when you have women in business they're they always want there to be some sort of cat fight and i think the clarification is me and sofia fight all the time i mean we're co-founders and best friends but it's about like having something so we can figure out at the end of the day like okay we disagree on this but like if you think that color blue is better like let's just go for it and if it's wrong we'll get rid of it like and then we'll do you know my idea next and so that's like the biggest thing i think we've learned is just argue really fast and we have something where we limit arguments to what five minutes now so at the end of it we're like okay decision time i'm so mad i'm like five minutes we're done we're not talking to make a decision like we need to decide what the next step is so even like you're getting it off the chest and then at the end of the five minutes like okay what are the action items okay if phoebe's mad phoebe go for walk phoebe go get latte phoebe go take a nap.

18:02Phoebe, come back. Or, you know, let's make a decision. Let's try this. And then if it fails, OK, great. We'll try it for a week and then do your idea. But I love what you said, Phoebe, because it's so real where, yes, people want whenever there is a duo. Yeah. People want to be like, how is it not working? And the reality is, if anyone's like, it's so perfect, just like a marriage, just like a friendship and a business relationship, nothing is perfect. And I think it's there should be healthy arguments. And again, it's how you argue is the key factor. The fact that you guys have this like structure where you're like five minutes, let's get through it.

18:34That's so healthy.

18:52Okay, Sophia, you have talked about feeling pressured to be the perfect immigrant daughter and have more of like a traditional stable career that you felt like at one point you probably would make your family happy if you went that way. Can you talk about how you ultimately decided to take the risk and go for something that wasn't as predictable and stable? 120 percent. The only reason I was able to take that leap of faith, move to New York City and work on the company was because of Phoebe. I think honestly throughout college, it was very much for me. Fake it until you make it. Like I put on this confident aura deeply still.

19:31I was insecure and scared. And for the first time, it was like seeing this person who believed in us and honestly, who believed in me that we could do this together made me tell my parents, listen, like I'm taking a leave of absence. I'm leaving Stanford. I know I worked so hard for this. Like I know this was my dream, but I need to do this. Like this is our calling. And it was honestly only because of Phoebe, because she said, I know we can do it. I know this is an opportunity. You need to believe in yourself because I believe in us. And I was like, you're so right. And I want to do this. I don't want to be an environmental lawyer.

20:04I don't want to work for the UN. I want to build this company with you for the next five or 10 years. Like we can do it. You're right. And it's just so surreal to think, yeah, we were bumbling and fumbling in our dorm room, building a smart tampon. We had no idea what we were doing. and now like we launched Fia and we launched a product we are genuinely so proud of that we poured like our blood sweat and tears into and it was all because Phoebe was like it's worth it we can take the leap of faith Stanford will always be there it's worth it can I ask because obviously you guys sitting on this couch you have such different backgrounds and like you Sophia talking about wanting to get scholarships and getting the scholarships and trying to figure out how to get in the door that way and then Phoebe coming from a place of privilege and you both kind of like having this like beautiful opposite energy of where you both came from like how have you guys like found an equal feeling to merge your independent lives and your backgrounds into one in a business I think it's about Phoebe really made me understand like you are a byproduct of your own beliefs.

21:12And if they're self-limiting, that's how your life is going to pan out. Like you can't have a scarcity mindset. And I think especially when you come from a background where you're being pushed to do something really typical, like climb the career ladder, get the pedigree. You never think about what if, like what if you take that risk? And Phoebe being able to do that for me has everything to do with just who she is as a person. Like that's just how you're wired. Phoebe, you coming from a place of privilege, your dad being Bill Gates, did you ever feel like it's been difficult to make a name for yourself and really like carve your own path and not just be like Bill Gates' daughter?

21:54Yeah, I think 100%. But the tough thing is it's like, yeah, that's difficult, but that comes with so much privilege, right? Like I didn't have to fight for a scholarship in college. Like I knew my college was going to be paid for. I had incredible opportunities because of my parents. Like if I didn't have my parents as my rock, like I wouldn't have been able to have these incredible opportunities. So yes, it came with the thing of like, oh yeah, I am in my parents' shadows and like, you know, it is going to be tough to make a name for myself. I had to learn very early on who were true friends, who weren't true friends.

22:20But honestly, like I think all in all, like I have an incredibly privileged life. And so I think saying that is like, oh, it's a hardship. It isn't really for me because it's like I've been so blessed with what I've been given by my parents and I'm never going to pretend I haven't been. obviously we've all seen like the nepotism conversation online and i think that's like there's not a right answer because if people are like what do you want them to say and i do feel that from you since the day i've met you like you're so hard working you're so smart and yes you have this privilege but it's beautiful to see what you're doing with it in a i guess what i would want to ask because i know you're not saying you're like feel bad for me but like how have you walked into rooms and in moments how do you deal with it when you can feel someone's maybe not not not taking you seriously, but being like, oh, it's like Bill's daughter.

23:07Like, we'll just like take the meeting or whatever. Like, how have you been like, no, I am an individual and I am smart and I do deserve to be here. Like, how do you push through those feelings of imposter syndrome, but then also knowing your worth? I think it's really about what Sophia said. Bake it till you make it. I used to lean too hard of, and this is something we've discussed a lot, too hard on the side of I would overshare consistently of like where I'd messed up, there are things that gone wrong because I wanted people to feel like I was a real human and not just like, you know, a figure or like a figment of my parents.

23:35And so I used to lean too hard on the oversharing side. And then I realized like, make it till you make it. Like if I feel like I am my own person stepping into that room, because frankly, once you get inside a room, it doesn't matter how you got there. Once your foot is in that door, you're there. And I think that was like the biggest learning. And then frankly, honestly, not even like something that I did myself or either of us did, but finding really strong female mentors that were there because they liked us was a huge thing for us. And so finding those people who could say, yeah, you think that's tough for you?

24:05Walking into a room and everyone thinks you're just Bill Gates's daughter. Yeah. Okay, honey, imagine walking into a room in tech in 1965. You think you have it tough, babe? Watch what I did. See the empire I built. And learning from those women has been so critical of how do you be true to yourself and be your own person. I completely agree. I love also what you said about having women as mentors. I feel like, I mean, that's literally how we even got connected is like the more I feel like it's very isolating as a woman in business to connect with other women because there is that like scarcity mindset where you see online people trying to tear women down if they're succeeding.

24:45And when you see a man succeeding, everyone's like, oh, that's so hot and attractive and go him. And when a woman is succeeding, it's like, well, she must have done something bad. Who did she fuck? Who did she fuck? Who does she know or who did it for her? And she's like just the face of it. Like there's they're always trying to tear it down. I think when men are assertive also in business, people are like, wow, this is so attractive and a great quality as where when a woman is assertive in business, she's considered a bitch. how have you guys navigated being women in business being business owners and bosses and navigating all of it i think it's easy because we're bitches oh we lay down the law that's the reality we are hardcore bitches i know what if we all just start saying like yeah i'm the biggest bitch i'm such a fucking bitch like yep and what else like it is kind of like yeah just own it i think the hardest thing for us was learning originally how to fire people because I feel like as a woman you are asked to be everything when someone reaches out for you and wants you know support or wants advice you feel like you need to respond to that email you're not giving back you know you're not helping out there's this you know aspect where you feel like you need to show up as a girlfriend as a friend and a founder and so I think for us learning really early on to separate the emotions be like I can't be everything for someone like I can't be someone's emotional support.

26:08I can't be their friend necessarily. If they're my employee and I have to let them go, I have to have a wall there of how I do it. And I feel like we allow men to have that wall, but we don't let women have that. It's so fucking true. And hearing you say that, I'm just thinking about how many women are listening to this episode right now and have tried to go in and advocate for themselves in the workplace, let's say. How many women have walked in and asked for something, whether it's a raise or fair treatment or whatever it be, and I know as a woman, because I've done it myself, we're always apologizing.

26:41Like, sorry, like I know you don't have that much time. And it's like a man would never walk in and feel anxious and feel like they have to kind of like placate the energy and kind of like also throw in a smile and also throw in like a compliment. And we as women, I feel like we have all these little cushions that we surround the hard truth information that we want to deliver because as a woman, we need to be graceful and we can't be a bitch and we want to come off as sweet and kind and not intimidating, where a man is like, I think I deserve the rave. This is the things that I've done to deserve it.