RuPaul: Blocking Out the Bullshit

0:02What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. okay okay okay RuPaul welcome to call our daddy thanks thank you so much for being here I am very very excited to talk to you I think my fans are gonna freak out I think this collab is gonna be very fun when are you your most confident uh when I'm alone people freak me out man people freak people are freaky most people think of confidence as power or as having stuff or doing things but it's that's not I feel most confident when I'm not distracted by other people's bullshit period would you consider yourself high or low maintenance oh I am so low maintenance I am so low maintenance you would not believe it how yes I've I can take care of myself and you know what uh I open my own door I take care of myself being alone with yourself being good with yourself and relying on yourself it's kind of all you fucking need it really is okay let's talk about your memoir congratulations the house of hidden meanings I think that this book is incredible because you offer like a very personal look into your childhood.

1:37You offer a personal look into early relationships and just some of the biggest struggles that you've been through in your life. So let's get into it. As a little boy, did you want to be famous? Like would anyone have been surprised that you became famous in your life? No one would have been surprised that I became famous. And did I want to become famous? It wasn't even about, did I want to? I knew it was my destiny. I felt that people would, had pointed me out from a very early age that says, hey, who are you? What are you doing? Hey, you, you know, I was always, different is the wrong term. It was, it was someone that people noticed, right?

2:16So I knew that somehow my destiny involved being out front. And the truth is I am an introvert masquerading as an extrovert and and i can do it i can do the thing like hey how you doing what's up hey you know what um is that cashmere oh my god i love cashmere cashmere not the word cashmere you know where i just go on and just right and look like i'm being open open open i know how to do it but um the truth is my real sense you know i'm just being chill just being chill do you get exhausted it can exhaust me i i you know if i'm not uh working i like to spend time alone to recharge my battery but it can be exhausting now i usually keep that hidden tucked away and i pretend like oh my god is that cashmere and i'll do the thing but the truth is i don't give a fuck about cashmere but i do that to get through to get through life and to maintain and to, you know, to get endorsement deals and to get people to like me on social and do all the stuff.

3:23First of all, thank you for just being honest, because I think a lot of people actually will completely relate to what you're saying of like, it's fucking exhausting trying to walk into work, walk into rooms and having to put on a facade because at the end of the day, none of us are going to be completely the same when we walk into a room with other people than we are when we're alone but there is a world of social currency that you need to somewhat engage in especially if this is your career it's like you're right you gotta sit across from me right now and i'm sorry but i'm gonna ask you questions about this memoir listen i i do enjoy cashmere from time to time you know i can do the thing but what most people don't know about me is that is that base level thing which is um don't take any of this too seriously otherwise you get yourself caught up in in trouble and and and wars and you know getting your feelings hurt I mean it's it's a lot um in the book you talk a lot about your family dynamics can you kind of paint the picture of what your relationship was like with your mother growing up I loved my mother I love the fact that she too she didn't believe the bullshit she just didn't and and unfortunately for her I think most of that came out of world weariness.

4:41And I think she didn't talk about her childhood very much, but or at all. But I have a feeling some really awful things happened to her as a little girl. And so she was very world weary. So she didn't put up the pretense. You know, I can do the Kashmir speak. She did not at all, at all. And she would cuss someone out. We could cuss in the house. We could, you know, and, you know, I felt growing up my role was to sort of lift her up. And I did. And I would do my impersonations for her, you know, of Tina Turner or Geraldine from the Flip Wilson show. But she was, she had a dark, dark cloud over her.

5:25And I related to that. I understood it very well. Because if you look at the world with x-ray eyes, there is so much darkness and sadness. So I choose joy. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't recognize the darkness or the pain. And I do. I look at the darkness, but I don't stare at it. I want to say that again so you motherfuckers can get it. I look at the darkness, but I don't stare because it will suck you in. And you are a powerful witch. You are powerful. You can create whatever life you want. Life asks, what do you want me to be? Okay, I'll be that. I also was just thinking, I may be butchering this.

6:15I remember there was this one line that you wrote about her basically saying something about like, if I'm not paying their fucking taxes, why the fuck do I give a shit what they're doing? If they ain't paying your bills, pay them bitches no mind. That was my mother. and it's true and it's it's it's sort of uh you know the same uh philosophy as um uh what other people think of me is none of my business i'm curious though when you talk about your mother in the book as you know as strong as she was like there as a child it seemed like there wasn't a lot of this like affection and like coming to you with love like how do you think you internalize that as a child?

6:53Yeah. Well, first of all, I put her first and I understood what her pain was. So I guess I justified her not being that affectionate or that sort of idea of mothering that we all think of. She was not that. In adulthood, I understood that, oh, she probably could have been more loving. But at the time, I felt empathy for her because I knew that she was in so much pain. I mean, she was always, the whole time of my childhood, she was at war with my father, you know, and it made me feel like a diplomat. And it taught me how to read the room and figure out what people needed. I knew what I could say around my father and what I could say around my mother, these warring factors, and to not incriminate one or the other.

7:41I knew how to to give them what they wanted without without telling giving too much information about my mother to my father and vice versa you talk about this big moment where your mom finds out that your dad was cheating on her in the book can you kind of like talk to me about that day because it was a pretty intense day well he was he'd always uh uh been uh you know out seeing other women uh but But this one, I guess, this time it just rubbed her the wrong way. And we will circle back around to the whole idea of cheating, too. Because, you know, x-ray eyes on a situation. Is cheating really a thing?

8:23I mean, come on. People do things. Men want to spread it around. It's just the animal that they are. now if someone promises you that that all of this area here is going to be only for them they're lying you think oh no not think darling not think that it's and i know for women they're like oh no um he's going to be mine for everything um who the fuck are you fooling so everyone's cheating it's not cheating it's not cheating if you say you're gonna save all of this area for one person, you are cheating on yourself. You are cheating on yourself. Should I not get married? I'm engaged. You get married, do whatever you want, but why would you, to the person you love the most, why would you put restrictions on them?

9:16If, and your best friend in the whole wide world who you love more than anyone else, why would you say, okay, if you're presented with a situation that is so fabulous and so lovely, I don't want you to do it. that is like the that is such an interesting way to look at it and i love it you can get mad at me all you want uh with this philosophy i didn't come up with it it's just my observation and it's it's true and i grew up you know i'm around men and men who are listening to this are going yeah they're like he's right look away look away no it's true it's true so um yeah what happened with my mother and father, two people who should have never been together, you know, he parked the car in the garage of our house and she poured gasoline all over the car and said, motherfucker, I will light this bitch up.

10:10And I'm five years old. My sister's Rozzy is four. Renee and Renette are seven years older than me. We're across the street from the house looking at this scene. and uh uh the whole neighborhood is out there watching and she's like i will and irving is my father is saying um uh tony please please don't donate and she's she's got a pack of matches in her hands saying i will do it i'll do it eventually uh sister harris from uh her church comes in and talks her out of it and everything is got and the fire trucks are there everything but when i think back on this scene. I'm not in my body. I'm actually like a camera on a dolly or a jib looking at the whole scene, moving around the scene like a camera outside of my body.

11:00And what happens with young people, and we all do this, is we dissociate. And so that the trauma of what's going on doesn't affect us on an emotional level, we separate from our bodies. We separate from our bodies. And so I don't remember coming back into my body until I got sober, which was when I, right before I turned 40, I was outside of my body the whole time because it wasn't safe enough to be in there with those feelings. When you look back at that moment, what does it make you feel for your younger self? I feel, I feel sad for my younger self. I absolutely do. Let's talk about your relationship with your father, because I know that you wrote that you felt very abandoned by him in moments in your life.

11:52And I'm wondering if you can kind of just like paint the picture of that dynamic and if there are specific memories that come up. At the time I felt abandoned by him, but through years and years and years and years of therapy, I realized he had abandoned himself. It wasn't personal. It's like reading the comments on YouTube or whatever about yourself. It has nothing to do with me. It had everything to do with him. I think I'm talking too fast. I need to say all of that one more time. This is how fast I usually talk. So we can let go of the conversation you want, or we can go super slow. People really need to understand what I just said, which is that it had nothing to do with me.

12:23Of course, as a child, I thought, he just doesn't like me. No, he didn't like himself, baby. It had nothing to do with you. Now, my ego wanted to make it about me. But no, no. No, he, he, I saw a psychic 30 years ago who said, well, your father, you and your father shared past lives together. So when you came into this, when you came into this life together, you were like, hey, buddy, it's you. Let's party. Let's boogie. Hey, we're going to have, we're going to, we're going to rule the school. But he could not see me. And I spent so much time saying, wait, you need joy. I'll give you some of my joy.

13:05You need a reminder. Let me remind you of who you are. Could not see it. And through therapy, I realized, well, he couldn't see it because for a person to become present in this moment, and this is true of every human on this planet, to be present in this moment would invite you to recognize how much pain you're in right now. So we distract ourselves with whatever we can get our hands on to not experience the depth of pain that we are in. But to move forward in this life, you have to walk through that fire. You have to walk through that pain to get to the other side. There's no other way. There isn't.

13:51And I think it can take people a lifetime. Some people never get to that point. some people engage in therapy and then they're like oh fuck I don't want to do this but it's like you have to open it up to actually see what's in there to then get through it to get on the other side you're right and I think about the this this moment that you write about in the book where you would sit outside your house on the steps and you're waiting for your dad and you're waiting for your dad and I think you're so right where so many people can relate probably that are listening to like yearning for from like their parents for something that they want and you're so right like it had nothing to fucking do with you he wasn't not showing up because he's like god i hate room i don't want to see his face when i pull up to the house but you're sitting there being like he didn't come home because of me and it's like it literally had nothing to do with you that's right that's hard to understand at such a young age so you just internalize it like damn my dad fucking hates me he's abandoned me i'm nothing like what's wrong with me that's right how did your relationship with your father inform the the romantic relationships and men you ended up pursuing and choosing well obviously i i never got that uh uh validation from my father so of course uh playing the role of ruth's father today is so and so and it would be the it's like it's like the exact uh replica uh charming charismatic good looking but not available so i would replay this thing over and over, relationship after relationship, until I ultimately met George, who was someone who chased me, chased me, and I didn't know what to do with it.

15:33I said, you know, okay, so let me, okay, what's that going to look like? I'm so used to being the chaser. So to allow someone to chase me, it changed everything. It changed everything. And of course, I had to get in touch with my ability to love myself. Even just to accept it, like even you saying like, which we're going to get to, like when you met your husband, it must have been such a strange feeling to accept a love that you had never experienced your mother being distant your father not showing up for you to then have someone pursuing you you're like what the fuck is going on like this feels good but what's off and so in a strange way a lot of the times the the the thing we're used to that is what we gravitate towards because it's the norm even if it's fucking toxic and even if it's unhealthy and it's like what the preach bitch right preach it's fucked testify you're like i love this and it's like but you watched your father abuse your mother you watch it so it as fucked up as it is well that you never saw a healthy relationship so how would you know like not to be scared when someone is just being loving being nice coming to you pursuing you you're not begging for attention and affection and love you're like the fuck is going on run something must be off did i do is it just genuine is he lying is he using me what is like the you you spiral and then you run back to what you're used to and you're like how do we end the cycle which you eventually did but let's pause we need to stay in the 20s we need to stay in the 20s then we'll get to the husband well but what you're describing is an abused child who's taken away from abusive home leaves there and longs to go back home because that is what they know and oppressed people take on the characteristic of their oppressor and how do you break that cycle you have you have to hit some type of rock bottom to get to that place and it is the most difficult thing you will ever do in your entire life when you talk about these early relationships that you went through before you found your husband you say it felt like you would absorb your parents toxic behaviors and patterns fucking relatable i understand you would like go for people that weren't available but like take me to a moment in a room with someone like what were you putting up with and then you would pause and be like am i literally replicating what my fucking parents did like how am i here well what what the biggest offense is not trusting your instinct and your intuition about something this is something they don't tell you about what getting old uh gives you is that you learn to trust your intuition about a situation a person and you know when you are you know somewhat hypnotized by a person, like I was early 20s, all of that intuition, you push it to the side, because you think this is exactly what I need.

18:36This is what I need. It looks like the validation and love I was supposed to get from my father or from my mother. But that never works. And in fact, But the only validation you ever need really is from your adult self to your child. Yeah. It's just it's so fucking hard to break the cycle. And I want to talk about your 20s. You became this well-known performer in the club scene. And I know you referenced like I was dissociating most of my life until I got sober. And so let's talk about when you weren't sober, taking the partying too far. indulging so heavily in these moments can you talk to me about your club life back then and yeah well listen i have nowhere i used for 30 years i have nowhere the first 20 were a blast had a great time it was his last 10 that were pure hell i had a blast i had a blast until it didn't work anymore and it and you know what thank god for the drugs and alcohol because it saved my life.

19:46It gave me a layaway plan, a deferment plan, until I was strong enough to deal with what was going on. And thankfully, I found a 12-step program that really, really, really helped me so much that I am in love with. And so I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that. I would not be here if it wasn't the success I have today. I wouldn't have that if it weren't for this 12-step program. Because it takes you through a process of walking back to the scene of the crime and forgiving yourself and giving you the tools, the processing tools, to deal with all of the trauma of what life is. you know we all live with so much trauma and you know i feel that not just america i think the whole world is needs to hit rock bottom before we can pull ourselves up because we you know there are two ways to learn you can learn intellectually or you can learn by hitting your head on the on the on the corner of the thing mama said rue don't touch that stove and now if i were smart i would I thought, well, mom has been around for a while.

21:02She probably knows the right thing. I'm going to touch the stove. That's who we are. We touch the stove. We are bashing our heads against everything. And I agree with you. I think there's going to have to be a rebuild moment. I appreciate the way you just explained, though, like the drugs and the alcohol and what they were for you. because I think people that haven't had hardship in their life are the people that are like, why don't you just leave the abusive relationship? Why don't you just leave? Just stop. And it's like the pain that you're describing and the pain that people go through when they do dissociate.

21:39There is like a level where like you actually can't re-engage with your reality until you're fucking ready. It's like how I always talk with friends who have been through certain things are like, should I get into therapy? I'm like, when you're ready. Not because I'm saying like, you really need it. Of course, you know you need it. But when are you ready to actually accept it instead of everyone shoving you in the door? Go to rehab. Go get help. No, no. When do you know you're ready? Everyone has a different threshold. Everyone needs to go at a different pace. But the judgment around people that aren't ready, I think we need to have some fucking grace because it is not that fucking linear and simple.

22:16It's just not. It's not. And people are just fucking assholes about it. I'm curious, like when you look back at that time in your life, as fun as it was, did you have any like self-sabotaging tendencies back then at all? Well, obviously, drugs and alcohol put you in situations that could be highly dangerous. And I was in those situations, really, mostly, aside from the drugs, that was with people that I was attracted to. And trying to relive the situation with my father. And I guess, really, with my mother, too. you know, trying to find a situation that would feed my soul. I was looking for soul food and I was looking for a way to fill that void when ultimately that void had to be filled by me.

23:12You talk about how you for a while were like quite uncomfortable with the idea of being wanted, being desired what types of things were you doing to avoid being seen sexually oh listen i didn't have to do anything to not be seen sexually here's the thing you know i've always been an oddball i don't fit into anyone's um uh description of what sexual this in the sexual hierarchy right uh the sexual hierarchy is oh he's a daddy oh you're a twink you're and there's a whole list of those things until the first time I got into drag people uh men or straight men went oh you're that and when and it scared me it shocked me because I'd never experienced that kind of um what's the word uh where you're being objectified object objectification I'm never I'd never experienced that before because I never fit into the sexual hierarchy of blah blah so when I got into drag just as a fluke, my band was doing this thing and we got in, and they said, let's get into drag, okay.

24:22I couldn't believe the attention that I got. And I wasn't doing high glam drag. I was doing, I shaved my legs, my hairy chest, I smeared lipstick and just, it was like punk rock drag. But I noticed a difference in the energy I was getting.

24:59Let's talk about George because it almost made me tear up when you teared up at the very beginning of this interview. You just mentioned his name and you got teary eyed. And I don't know like what comes up for you when you even just saying he's lovely. He's lovely person. He can be he's grumpy he's he's angry he's all of those things but he's lovely he really is he's a lovely person and i like him more than anybody else i mean i think that's great too because you obviously love being alone so someone who loves being alone so much i'm very similar i sit here and i perform all day and i need to get the fuck home don't fucking talk to me don't look at me and my fiance just knows like let her be alone but i do appreciate his company which makes me know oh i actually fucking like it.

25:41I actually like you. What was it about him when you met him that you remember being like, this man is different other than him pursuing you? Well, it was the fact that he was kind and that I trusted him. I trusted him with my feelings. Because, you know, growing up with in between two warring factors, my parents were so obsessed with their own psychodramas that it It wasn't a safe place for me to feel nurtured. You mentioned that my father's weekends with my sister and I, he was meant to pick us up that morning. And we'd sit on the porch and wait for him all day. And when I say all day, I mean sitting on that porch all day he would never show up waiting for him.

26:35And we'd say, Rozzy and I would say, next car is going to be daddy. Next car is going to be daddy. We do that all day long. And so I didn't trust my parents with my feelings. You know, I would, you know, I would sort of mother my mother with, you know, joy and bring her up and all that kind of stuff. So when I met George, I could tell from the moment I met him that he was lovely and kind. And I could trust him with my feelings, that he wouldn't hurt my feelings. He has never hurt my feelings. Never. And my mother, when I was, my mother said to me, Rue, you're too goddamn sensitive. I was five years old at the time.

27:16Five. She said, she also said, Rue, you reminisce too much. And I was five. I have five years of reminiscing. But, you know, it was insight into her because years later, as an adult, I learned that she was actually trying to warn me to not do what she did. And it was very telling about her that she was too sensitive and that she reminisced too much. So that didn't occur to me. I only got that probably 10 years ago where I went, oh, that's what that was. So anyway, George was so open and not secretive. He was just open. In fact, I tell this story at one point when we first started dating. He asked me, hey, can I floss your teeth?

28:10Fuck no, you can't floss my teeth. What? I never heard of it. Why? Why did he want to floss your teeth? Because he wanted to be that intimate. with me he was it was you know and I never forgot that because it just it that someone would want what but now when you look back on and saying that like how does that make you feel when you reflect on him saying that to you it makes me feel like he wanted to be he wanted not only be inside me but he wanted to be a part of me that that that level of intimacy I had never experienced before. And it allowed, it was a signal to the child who lives inside of me that it's okay.

29:04You can relax with him. You can relax with him. He's not going anywhere. In fact, we split up when we got sober together. We split up. Still couldn't shake him. Couldn't. we'd still called three times a day and ultimately we did get back together again and you know eventually got married I want to go through that too because it's a very breaking up with someone that you then end up with is rare I feel like it it takes a really special bond but just going back to what you just said it's so it's so inspiring to see like the trauma you went through and the partners you would choose that were replicating just what you watch with your mother and father then finding George it's interesting to see like even the way you just spoke like you got calmer it got more still you could be yourself like in what ways once you started to engage in a healthy relationship how long did it take you to actually trust and be yourself because I'm sure there are people listening to like Rue I fucking hope to God one day get to where you're at like how long did it actually take once you met him to be like trust don't bring up my old shit like don't put on him what I've done in other relationships like that's a lot of fucking work yeah no and don't trust me I you know I the the beast still came out you know in our relationship and and my distrust but uh soon enough you know he would put me at ease.

30:31And, you know, it takes time. And, you know, even the time that we were apart, we both realized that there's no one I like more. And the chances of me meeting someone who I felt that comfortable with and that much myself with is very rare, very rare. You know, when we're young, we think, oh, I've got all the choices in the world and when you look back I'm 63 you look back and you go there were very few few situations where where people had their had all their shit together not shit together you know bank accounts and all that kind of stuff I'm not talking about that but knew enough about themselves to not hurt you and and project their own hurt out at you You know, which is, I think, what my parents, my parents did.

31:28And, you know, and I can forgive them now. There's a book called Toxic Parents that really helped me a lot by Dr. Susan Forward, that really walks, walked me through the steps of, of overcoming the trauma of my parents. I think it's also incredible because sometimes like we run away from things that make us feel good, depending on, again, our trauma of like this can't be this good. And I think with George, it's so clear that like although you were both going through things, which I do want to talk about with addiction, like you knew at the core how you felt around this human being. and that is something that lasts forever.

32:14How someone makes you feel, you never shake that. And you did break up. Can we talk about that just a little bit of like, how did you decide, because it was mainly you, right? That did decide like, we need to put this on pause. Well, it was mutual. What happened was we had this condo in Florida, in Miami, that George was redoing. And I learned that he had been addicted to crystal meth, which is the devil. So I put him into rehab and then brought him to a 12-step program. And I went with him to support him in this 12-step program, only to realize this was for me. I need this. And I realized, too, that I had been living my fame and fortune through George, vicariously through George.

33:09So I realized that if I am living through him and he's in this much trouble, that's how much trouble I'm in. You were living your fame through George. What do you mean by that? Well, at five, when I had dissociated and separated, became a jib, a camera on a jib, I realized I had not come back into my body because it was not safe. It didn't feel comfortable for me to feel my feelings firsthand. Got it. I could feel my feelings through him. You know, we'd be flying to Dusseldorf on Elton John's private jet and he'd be like, oh, my God, this is great. So I'd be happy because it informed me, this is great.

33:57This is great. But I could not feel my feelings firsthand. Right. You're like looking for the outside validation of like, what is going on here? Like, oh, this is great. Great. This is great. Sure. For sure, George. Like interesting. Yes. And it wasn't until I got sober that I was able to bring my feelings and my camera in through my own eyes. But when you looked at George and you recognized he was addicted to crystal meth, that is also when you said well i also have an addiction problem oh yeah yeah yeah no i'd always used i'd use i started using when i was 10 years old i started uh smoking weed when i was 10 years listen alex it was a different time it was san diego california it's a different uh thing it's not like like the way people think of it today do you remember when you tried your first hard drug Yes.

34:48I was probably 13. And back then there was something called Red Devils. And I took a Red Devil pill. I don't know where I got it. I don't know. But, yeah. What was it like? Like, what is the facts? I don't know if, I don't remember if it was an upper or a downer. I really do not remember. But I do remember it was around that time. But I wasn't afraid of drugs. I never shot up or anything. But also, the big thing was that I never had any money. So I was at the mercy of whoever I was around. And then in my 20s, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to. In my 20s, I dropped acid every weekend throughout my 20s.

35:43every weekend like four hits of acid every weekend have you ever dropped acid i have never done it what does it feel like well i'll tell you okay um it's i well we're gonna be listen you're an adult don't do acid yeah yeah whatever yeah it's fucking incredible it's incredible because it was the it was the it was the um the proof i had that this world is an illusion that everything you think you know about solid objects or what people are is a lie. And I had that suspicion before I dropped acid. So when I dropped acid, it was like, yes, this is exactly. And the people who freak out, and I used to drop it, and some people would freak out.

36:35You know what that means? They were like, oh my God. Those are the people who it never occurred to them that this is an illusion. From the day I was born, I thought this is an illusion. So the minute you dropped acid, you're like, damn right. Yeah. It lifts the veil of the illusion, the fantasy that we're all, we collectively agree to in our lives. did you like when you got so famous and you're in new york and and people know who you are like were you at all ever paranoid that people were going to be like rupaul is like fucked up or there's something you know what i mean i do i was downtown famous in my 20s but um i didn't get world famous until i was 32 32 and i had stopped doing chemicals i just i was just smoking weed then and then in my late 30s uh as doing a little bit of coke a little bit too much coke uh but really in private with friends but so I would never be I would be stoned I was always stoned uh from you know uh I was a waking baker I'm curious like you're so famous and how does that make you feel like you know it's um you know it doesn't feel any different from when i was five years old and the kids in the neighborhood said oh you're a sissy they they i was always pointed out i was always singled out and said huh you're something you're something different uh i didn't know what the connotation i didn't know that was sex it didn't have a sex I thought, oh, okay, at five years old.

38:20But my point is that I always felt singled out that there was something going on with me. And I had to learn to accept that. So does it feel any different from back then? No, it doesn't. It feels like I have a purpose that I came here to do and it's part of it. because I just am curious because knowing that a lot of performers I think are introverts that become extroverts on stage when they're performing like I know a lot of musicians that are like oh my god bitch when I get on fucking stage it's a complete alter ego like that's not me I go home and I'm like in my pjs and makeup off and not focused on like that persona but do you ever have moments or have you ever had a moment in your career where you've resented the persona you've built no no because i i take that shit off it that's that's a it's a a a part of me but it's not it's not who i i am and thankfully you know you know drag is is so brilliant because it's like a it's like a wink wink nudge nudge at the facade that we were talking about where you know that that you know being on tripping you know breaks through that drag is an extension of that wink wink nudge nudge and so it's not really to be taken seriously it's paint powder but i never once thought that's who i am right yeah it's supposed to be fun you're supposed to enjoy it absolutely people take shit too fucking seriously take stuff too seriously read into it too much like it's not that deep it's not that deep it's really not you know i want to circle back just to conclude that conversation about george like the book kind of ends like you're not really together and i thought that was such an interesting stylistic choice of like why how did you decide to end it like that because it was the real the death of my old self and this has been the rebirth of my life this this is a whole other book this part you know in this business if you get seven years in this business you've done great great but for me to have the opportunity to have another bite of the apple uh because i got my shit together amazing so that's a whole other story so you know ending it ending it uh at my getting sober was uh felt like the natural place and i feel like from what i've read and looked up like you and george are pretty like notoriously private people together with your relationship like how did you decide and did you talk to him about that you were going to write about these like pretty intimate details of your lives uh he doesn't give a shit it's like bitch just go just write no but uh they were you know going on this book tour and the people were saying hey um we've got some seats set aside for george uh do you want he He doesn't want to go to that.