Sarah J Maas: The Wait Is Over

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27:20Shopify lets you move faster, reach more people and operate like a real business from day one. Let me tell you something. When I am selling Call Her Daddy merch, Unwhelm merch, Shopify has changed my life and they've also changed my life as a consumer because yes, when I hit that button, boom, all my information's in there boom I'm just I'm shopping away okay that can be your life too build your store own your audience and create something that lasts start now at shopify.com slash daddy we need to talk about these three series so when I was talking to my friends about it I think something that is quite literally the most mind-blowing thing that you have been able to do and a lot of people are so perplexed by how you've done it is all of your series converge in some way or another but that must take years of planning so can you try to explain to me how you have been able to have the foresight that all three of these giant series somehow overlap I mean, I don't actually know how I have the brain capacity for this because like on a daily basis, I'm like barely functioning.

28:34But I don't I mean, like because I started writing so young, I was able to like figure out these worlds, these characters. and when I was trying to get published initially like I had a lot of downtime like while like waiting for like agents to respond publishers to respond and like writing's the thing that I love the most so like I was always writing so like during that waiting time when I was trying to get thrown a glass published ACOTAR came out of me the first two books of ACOTAR like poured out of me in 2008 2009 like whenever around then like in like a two-month span um the first book is very similar to what came out of me i wound up rewriting mist and fury the ultimate like direction of it was of course the same but like i've been then crescent city was like a passion project for many years that i would write kind of to this sounds cuckoo crazy but like i would reach the end of a day having like edited like thrown a glass or a guitar and like i just was like done with those worlds and i wanted to go like play and like at the time at the time like there was not as much cursing in like my earlier books so i was like i just want to write like fucking shit and damn it all the time like and like and so crescent city just started something i didn't not have any intention of publishing it and it was just on the side and then as i was writing that i was like oh and like so i had all this time very early on in my career even before my career really took off to like have a vision of what i wanted to do do you have like a map in your house to like be like okay this world no it's all all in my head i mean like i have notebooks where i write things down but like the overarching like vision of it is all i wish i could live in your head for a day that is crazy all you would hear is just cheetos and diet coke on repeat this is and all these worlds bouncing back and forth yeah no i mean like it's it's it's like it's very strange to have like all of that in your head because like i and it's almost like a separate thing where like I have like two kids now.

30:33So like on a daily basis, I'm like, okay, like, what am I making them for dinner? That's not like boxed mac and cheese. And then like, I like switch between these modes where suddenly like, I'll be able to put that away when they're at school. And then like the world's expand again, and I'm living in them. It's like a muscle you have to flex when you get to sit back down. Yeah. But then also like, I sometimes like go back, especially with like the music that's inspired, like some some of the scenes and like the books and just like, I will listen to the music that inspired those scenes and relive those scenes.

31:03And sometimes just cry or just like, and I don't even read what's in there. I just relive that moment of clarity where I saw it. And so sometimes in reflecting and going back, I'm able to think like, that moment really struck me and stood out to me. How can we pull that through in the future? But then sometimes I'm thinking books ahead, I'll write one little line and be like, like this will come back um and like that but then sometimes things line up too in like a really like cosmic psychic way where it i mean i again i have like crystals all over my desk so i'm like am i channeling like something that's happening in like the you know like another universe and i'm just like writing it down because it all lines up perfectly yes like sometimes where i like there was something recently where like it lined up like i had not planned it but it was like my subconscious or like some like human wide psychic thing like i had tapped into it it was like you know slow pitch over the the plate for me just to like it was there it was it was there and i just and like i jumped out of my seat and like shut my computer and i was like no like we're done here we're done this is like too perfect like this is planned this like i was like some this came from not me and i don't and i don't say that from like an egotist i just literally i'm And like, it worked out like almost to like a supernatural level.

32:25This makes me so happy as a fan because I'm like, I was wondering, I'm like, how does this all go down? But now I want to talk about some of your female characters because I genuinely believe in the past. I do think that fantasy and I think everyone knows this, like fantasy and that world was more dominated by male authors, obviously. And then you came into the game and I think people really gravitate towards your work because of these really strong, independent, complex women that you are creating in these worlds. One of your most beloved female characters in Throne of Glass is Aelin. What did you want to communicate through her evolution?

33:06Aelin came out of me. just and like there was no planned evolution aelin in some ways her journey mirrored so much of me growing up growing into like i poured a lot like she's not me in any way but like there was a journey like a mirror journey there um and a lot of my books are like and and what my characters go through is in some ways like a mirror to things i've been going through but like Like, Aelin, from the start, just came out of me fully formed. Kind of like Athena springing from Zeus's head. Like that, and she just was there. And, like, I almost just let her lead the way. And, like, my life, like, paralleled it where I could understand.

33:57It sounds like I had no control over her, but I really didn't. And I let her lead me where she needed to go, but also was able to, like, connect with her. Like, I don't know. Like, there were just, like, moments in my life where I can, like, look back at those scenes in Throne of Glass and remember, like, what it was that inspired that scene. And not, like, play-by-play events, but just, like, a feeling. Like, in, like, the, like, the Assassin's Blade, like, novellas, like, there's, like, one of the later ones. Like, she's, like, out all night, like, partying and, like, just, like, watches the sunrise.

34:29And it's like that was like me like in college, like staying out with my friends, like having an amazing time at a party and just like that feeling of like you're young and everything's beautiful and like you are immortal. And like, isn't it amazing to be alive and like here like that went into that. And so like those were the things I was able to connect with her in those moments. Like, and so I don't know, like, and then like her rage and her like her anger. I'm like, I never got to see women being angry and bitchy the way I often felt. Like, I always felt like everyone like had to be like sweet and nice.

35:05And like, I was not those things. I was not any of those things. Like, I was always kind when I tried to be to people. But like, I had like strong feelings about things. Like I had like, I could fly off the handle at something. And I wanted to write about a woman that like didn't have to be appealing to anyone and that like I did not give a shit if anyone reading it liked her. Like this was her. Sorry. Like that was who she was. And like take it or leave it better. And like I wanted to let her make bad choices and learn from those choices and grow in the same way that like I also wanted her to have like different romantic relationships.

35:45Like I don't know like any of my anyone. that like has just been like, I met this one guy and like we're in love and now we're getting married and that's it. Like, no, like I wanted her to grow with that and take things away from those relationships. And I don't know, she just like, as I was learning all of that stuff growing up and like, you know, like she was too. Like, so there was just a natural mirror. She was one of the first characters you ever wrote. So it's like to know that there was a mirror there, it, it makes sense. And I think it's beautiful that you were like, I literally don't care if anyone likes her or doesn't like this is who she is take her or leave her yeah i mean that was the same like manan and thrown a glass like that was like an even more extreme version of it i was like she's just gonna go like with her nails and just like your thing yeah yeah you said um you're drawn to writing women who can't kind of be placed in a definable category which i love as a woman yourself in this industry what box have you felt like people have tried to put you in oh you're like oh sweetie how much time do we have i feel like i should have a sedative before i like completely explode i just think in general when a lot of people hear that i write romantic fantasy you know like as much as i love my like steamy sexy hot scenes like this dismissal now of like smut where i'm like yeah i write smut like i love it but like that's not what like my fans come up to me to talk about like they like when they want to come thank me like it's like yes we giggle and laugh about like the hot scenes whatever but like they tell me how they left like their abusive husband after they read a court of mist and fury and like we cry over that and so like the putting me into this box of like she just writes like really sexy stuff i'm like no I love writing that stuff.

37:34I always be proud of it. Like, I mean, granted, like I was like copy editing a scene in Silver Flames once where it was like when Nesta blows Cassian at like the dinner table and my dad was visiting and I was like, I had like the printed out pages and my dad was like, what are you working on there? And I was like, oh my God. I was like, nothing. We're done. I'm not editing this scene anymore. It was the worst fucking thing. You're like, dad, please don't read this no and like he insists on it i'm like should i rip out pages for you but then like the sex but that's the thing where i'm like the sex sometimes is tied to the plot like silver flames for example like nesta and cassie and like they're having like hot sex and like bodily fluids are flying everywhere but it is like intensely tied to their own emotional journeys and their own journey as a couple and so like this dismissal of like it's just like smut like whatever i'm like it's fun i design it to be entertaining but it's also moving and like i write like what i consider to be like cool shit that like means something to me i love that you just clarified that too because i do believe it is such a double standard obviously with women that like if you at all tap into sexuality or sex in any realm everything else that you also are contributing in that category is completely dismissed because people are like, oh, you're just writing like sex shit.

38:55And you're like, wait, no, that's like, what? And so it's so frustrating. But I do believe in a gorgeous way, like if people took the time, that's also just a testament to people sometimes don't give a shit and they want to misunderstand you. If you take the time to understand these female characters that you're writing, yes, they have been so liberating for so many women. They have helped so many people. And it's been an escape for a lot of women, which you've done an incredible job with. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I just I mean, I think of it as like when I when I want to reread books, like I'm not going to like the depressing, boring shit.

39:29Like I want to read books that make me happy, that have a happy end. And like if you want to read like those other types of books, fine, like good for you. But for me, like I want things where like I go on a journey like I like I like there's hot sex that I can like, you know, dog ear those pages and like read all of that however many times I want. But then also, like, it brings me joy. And I find that there is a tendency for people to roll their eyes at things that bring joy and bring women joy, especially. And it pisses me the fuck off constantly. um and again like like you were saying like anytime like a woman she writes something and there's like even a little hint of sex that's not like fade to black or like you know very like artistically mentioned it's like suddenly it devalues the work and it doesn't matter what else is in that book if there is some kind of like hot graphically and i'm like i don't understand though because you're writing a thing that is so accurate to life and sex is a part of life i was gonna say this is one of the this is the commonality that all of us share in this world is we all have sex we all deserve pleasure yeah and so if we continue to go down the path of women shouldn't write about these things or read about these things or talk about these things then it really is still just a man's game so it's very like victorian yes where i'm like okay like you're like getting into the nitty-gritty of like you know what like you're like midwestern alcohol alcoholic i'm like what about like the sex what's going on with that like that that is a key part of anyone's life i'm like you want to have a mirror like an accurate mirror and you don't have to have sex but it's just the this idea that like having it there again devalues the work it's i find it a little more than frustrating um but then it's also like anything related to women like i i get like watching like lord of the rings or like reading that like as a kid like all these fantasy books like with all these guys in them there's like no women well i would think like okay like if I was there like me and Legolas are running through the Mirkwood together um because I totally marry Legolas in my mind obviously Sarah yes yes I'll give you that one thank you thank you very much that's my number one fantasy um but like I'm going on an epic fantasy quest in my mind like I'm like in Mordor I get my fucking period what do I do and like I want to write about that shit I'm like that's like I mean it's not only like funny to me but it's also like this is a reality.

41:58This is our life. In my books, I'm like, I want to write about things that the sex, the real stuff. I'm like, what if you got your period when you were climbing the slopes of Mount Doom? What would you do? Are you free bleeding? Do you have cramps? Sarah J. Maas is getting the hard-hitting facts. I just want to know. Maybe some people don't want to know those things, but I do such a deep dive into the world, into these characters that I'm thinking of bathroom breaks? When was their last period? Like all of that. I think it's so obvious, though, that although there and we always hear the negatives, there's such clearly an appetite for what you've done.

42:39I also love how you talk about the real stuff, because speaking of the real stuff, obviously, yes, your books are fiction, but like you are hitting very real, honest topics that you can kind of extract what you want to take from each. And I think there was a lot of online discourse around Feyre's pregnancy in A Court of Silver Flames, because I think a lot of people were frustrated, right, that she didn't have control or understanding of what was happening to her body and her partner did, which we'll get to. But can you talk a little bit about why you chose to write her story that way. I love my children.

43:24I am fucking obsessed with my kids. I hated being pregnant. I hated it. It was traumatic for me every step of the way, starting with like when I was first pregnant with my son and I was told by like this asshole of a nurse, like, okay, this is your weight and you can only gain this much weight while you're pregnant. And like, as someone who's had like a history with like disordered eating and stuff, like being told, like, you can, you're only allowed to gain between this, like here and here, like this is all you can gain during pregnancy. It took every bit of joy away where instead of focusing on this beautiful, beautiful baby growing inside of me, I was thinking about the food I was putting in my body.

44:09And then the constant tests and appointments where you're being like literally like having like probes in you and like you know just like it felt very and like i i'm like the person where i like i have to make myself go to the gynecologist even though i love my gynecologist i'm like i like i and i hate doctors i hate waiting rooms i hate all of that i hate the interruption to my daily life and so pregnancy was not fun and then my son was born in an emergency c-section two weeks late the people that i knew back then who had had kids were like oh like you don't want to take any of the drugs like you will like really hurt like the baby and it's like the opposite like if you're a good mother like you won't like take the pain medication and so i was like i i like i came up with a birth plan i had a doula i had all this stuff planned out and if and if that works for you like that's fine but for me that was my way of trying to like control it and then that day i'm like i'm told no like i have to have every medical intervention possible i have to have an emergency c-section but like worse than that like I went into the hospital and I was told by the doctor who was going to like induce, she was first going to induce me.

45:16She's like, go have a big meal because you're going to be like, you know, pushing this baby out all night. So I get to the hospital after having like a big dinner to repair myself for labor. And then it turns out like I need to have an emergency C-section. But the doctor who is there is a man and he starts yelling at me saying, why would you eat anything? You can't eat anything. And I was like, your colleague literally told me to go have a big dinner and come here. I did not know I was having an emergency C-section. I never had surgery of any sort in my life before this point. So like for me, even to be in like a hospital gown in a hospital, like I'm terrified.

45:52And then this male, this man I've never met before and like is telling me like this is what we are doing. And like you did everything wrong and he's scolding me. So I'm already terrified. This is my first kid. I don't know what to expect. And so then they're like, OK, we're taking you back. And I was like, can my husband come back for like the epidural for all like I'd never seen the inside of an operating room. And they were like, no. And I was like, can you please come back? I need someone there with me. I've never done this before. And they're like, he's not allowed in there. And so like they wouldn't let him back.

46:24So I'm like in the like operating room, like like sitting on the table waiting for this massive needle. And I'm shaking so violently with terror that like and like all the doctors, they're like ignored. like they did not give a shit it was the intern like the med school intern that like saw me like panic like a girl and she came over and like held my hand through it and i was like whoever you are and like i hope like she she probably has no idea that she helped me like that meant so much to me that day that moment of kindness where it was like a fellow young woman like being like this woman is terrified and like no one is being nice to her and so then like the recovery from the c-section was horrible the guy like sliced me way too high he was lazy i'm probably giving you like way too many details no you're not this is like this is a real shit he sliced me in a way that was convenient to him but essentially destroyed like the flow and look of my stomach where it never would heal right to the point where we moved to a new state eventually and i got pregnant with my daughter and like it took me a while to even want to have a second kid because what i went through in the recovery from the c-section it was so bad it was not fun for me um and like i had to have this emergency c-section one like because like my son was two weeks late but two he started going into distress but like he had not dropped and it was the kind of thing where i sometimes think about this like if i had been born like a hundred years before i would have died this and so like that really stuck with me the sense of like i should be dead and my son should be dead from this and i hope he's listening to this, like not freaking out right now, but like, I should be like not here.

48:02And so like that kind of like has lingered where I'm like without modern science and medicine, like I wouldn't be here. But then when I had my, my daughter, I had an amazing gynecologist here in LA actually. Um, and she, in our first appointment, when we met each other, she took one look at what this man had done to me and she had to walk out of the room. and she she was like i never would have cut you like that and she was so she she was shaking she was so she was like this was unnecessary like well why did he do it she's like because he was lazy and he was an asshole and so then she and then when it came time to deliver my daughter and she had to like she had to use the same line and she was so mad that she had to like do this um and like so it just was like this very traumatic thing and my body never felt like with a kid in me like It never felt like my body anyway, because I'm like, there's an alien growing in me.

48:53This is weird. And every time they would move and I'd see them, I was not like, oh, I was like, get it out. What is this? And so then to lose complete control, a lot, just, I did not have easy pregnancies and births. And so like Feyre and all of that, like just was my own way of processing my shit. And like, it's not like I didn't die. I wasn't like dead like Feyre was, but like the fear, like Reese's fear, even that probably came from my fear and thinking about having another kid and like just like all of that. That's what and that's the way where like the things I go through in life feed into my books where like it wasn't a play-by-play of my pregnancy and like obviously my kids don't have wings that are getting stuck in the birth canal but like the fear the trauma like all of that like the writing that book allowed me to get it out of my system in a way um and process it thank you for sharing that because obviously i i've read the book and and this gives so much more color to like the why and and it just made me think too like we don't talk about how it is very risky yeah and there's like a constant like they're constantly doing tests like every ultrasound is terrifying because you want to make sure is everything okay is there a heartbeat even and you're like and so there's oh there's there's joy in it but there's fear constantly like constantly built into the stages of pregnancy.

50:35And like, maybe some women do just have pure joy, but I found it to be very stressful, very scary. I just was constantly like worrying that something would go wrong. I mean, when I was pregnant with my daughter, I actually like broke my ankle and fell down the stairs. Yeah, I like took one step and like my ankle just like crunched. And then I fell down the stairs because my ankle like gave way. And I was like pretty heavily pregnant. I had to be like rushed to the hospital and like they'd like check that the baby was okay. that like i was traumatizing yeah and it just was like a level of like freak out where everyone's like oh my god like the worst possible thing could happen and it's happened like it was intense it was were you nervous at all about the feedback of writing this into favor's no i mean like the thing is is like again with like the sex and the periods i'm like motherhood is a thing that so many women experience for better or worse and it was something that i wanted to write about where I didn't want like, like Farrah's journey shouldn't just end where it's like she's happily ever after and she's punching out kids.

51:39I'm like, no, like there's like a story to be told there. There are things that like will play out from that. And like motherhood doesn't need to be like glossed over. It doesn't need to be something that's like seen as weak. Like someone being in a loving relationship with a person and choosing to bring a new life into this world and to share their world and open up their hearts to someone, that's a beautiful thing. Like, however you make a family, like, that is a beautiful, wonderful thing. And it is not a weakness. And, like, I have become a stronger person because I'm a mother. Like, I learned how to stand up for myself becoming a mom more than I ever did before I had kids.

52:18And I realized, like, who I am now, not just being a mom, but the things I have learned as a mom. like i really like they're like the biggest badasses in the world and like i have learned more from being a mom than i ever did um and i think that's a strength and a wisdom that like should be shared it is and like beautiful that you did i also remember and i don't know if you can say if it was related to that but you've said before that you were going through some mental health struggles while writing a court of silver flames and in the book obviously we see nesta working through some of her trauma and trying to overcome it like in what ways did your life at the time mirror or influence each other in that writing process all of my books kind of have mirrored my own mental mental health journey even before i realized i had issues like a lot of what like alien went through and like air of fire all of that like that was like drawn from like very broken places in me mist and fury that came out of me and i didn't even realize like what that meant about me but silver flames was really the first time when i understood the connection And I around.

53:422018, I mean, it was the year my son was born. I had three books published. I was requested to come back from my maternity leave like a couple weeks later to do like copy edits, like page like like just like reviewing stuff. And like so I literally like the stuff I sent in was splattered with breast milk because I was like pumping and pumping like while I'm like editing pages it was a lot and like there was a lot and it was like like Kingdom of Ash was coming out that year and like I just kept like refining things and tweaking things and it's about to go to the printer and I'm told like it's too long the book is too long by a couple pages it has to go to print in like two days we need to find like five pages to cut.

54:29And like, not just like, like see, like, like, so I went through this book again, pumping hormonal, recovering from a C-section, frantic to find, like to move texture, like literally not just like cutting words, but like being like this line, like you could like bump this word up here, like all like 1000 pages in a frenzy. I finish it and then I get an email. Oh yeah, we found this space anyway. It's okay. And so like, it was just like, there was a lot going on. And so like that was the year that I started to have these like panic attacks where I had this overwhelming sense that something awful was going to happen.

55:07That it was all going to go away and implode and that like it and it got like I would I would I had a panic attack that lasted for like two, three days out of I'd never had one before. and then they just started happening like more and more frequently until like I got to like the fall of like 2019 and I reached like such a dark place that like I scared myself and I realized like I needed to talk to someone I needed therapy um like it was a very like I'm feeling like I'm talking about it was a very very low moment

55:49And going to therapy wound up being the thing that saved my life. It saved my life. And I went because I looked at my son, sorry, and I just was like, I want to be here. This is what I'm fighting for. I don't want to feel this way. The thing that I love the most, writing has become terrifying to me. Like, I need to not be, sorry, in this hole. and so I started going to therapy I got put on medication we figured it out it was rough but out of that as I was doing that that's when I started writing Silver Flames and so what Nesta feels in that book I wrote that as I was going through therapy and so like I've like never cried talking.

56:46I feel very emotional talking about this, but her, I remember like the exact moment when I like came up with the idea for this scene where she and Cassian are taking that hike and she just breaks down. And like, that was me in New Zealand with Josh at my lowest on a hike thinking the same thing. And just like, and as I was on this hike, I started crying and then I saw Nesta and I saw this scene. And so like that came out. I took notes. I wrote down that scene. Like that all came out of me. And so where she gets like at the end, like she's not perfect. She's not healed. She's still a work in progress.

57:23But like I, she was in a hole. I was in a hole. And like we dug our way out of it together. And like the friends that I like made during that, like it's like the friendship she made. We're like the love that you have with like your romantic partner is one thing. but then like finding like girlfriends that like get you and like don't judge you like that is another thing and like that was a gift that I was given to that like and so you just I just basically wrote what needed to come out of me as I was going through all of it um and so that book has a very very special place in my heart but now I'm able to look back at like Mist and Fury and like Aelin's journey in Thorn of Glass and realized like, oh, yes, like I did actually suffer from a lot of these things for many, many years.

58:10And I had coping mechanisms in place that were very effective until they weren't anymore. Can you share a little bit with Mist and Fury, like what you were going through? I mean, Feyre's sense of panic, like those panic attacks that she has, where she's describing walls coming in. And like all of that came from feelings that I have, I didn't even know I was having panic attacks that raised the acid in the blood feeling, reactions to things like just like these ups and down, like all of that. And like I drew on my own like emotional feelings, but I had no idea until I was able to reflect in therapy like, oh, like so like high school, like, yeah, like, of course, that's why I felt the way I did.

58:56Like my anxiety around like tests and all of that and like having to like perform like so many. I've uncovered so many things about myself, but that now make like looking back on my books. I'm like, oh, this is really interesting because like this was the shit that I was going through without even realizing I was going through that. But Sarah, like it's so real hearing you speak about this because you sharing your birth journey. and as a woman sitting across from you, when you were like, oh my God, I hope this isn't too much detail. I was like, no, no, no, keep going because I think all of us are sitting here being like, yes, we've experienced it.

59:33We've all gone to whether it's a gynecologist and it's been uncomfortable or a doctor and these are real things that kind of are like hush, hush and you don't talk about all the way from that traumatic experience and then having your child, you having this moment where the thing that you loved the most of like wanting to have a child and also writing and all of it kind of closing in and not going the way you wanted it to. And everyone's like yelling at you to get these things done. What used to be such a fun time in your life to just write because it was in your brain. Now it's like, it's a deadline.

1:00:02Let's go. It's a job. And so you started to put too much pressure on yourself because understandably this thing has gotten so massive. And unfortunately, as humans, sometimes we literally need the breaking point to slow us down, to be like, something has to change. I can't live like this forever. Yeah, yeah. And just like realizing that like I do have a value as a person beyond my books and like my the love that like the people around me feel for me is not tied to my success. And like and accepting that like whatever happens like that doesn't take away from me and like the blessings that I have in my life, not in terms of like the material things, but like my children, my husband, my friends.

1:00:48Like those are all the things that like nothing can take that away from me. And that's what I like realized. I learned to separate it in a very healthy way where now it is like a job for me now, but it's something that I can approach with joy and like confidence where I'm not operating from a place of fear, which is what started to happen before I had these like massive panic attacks. That is so relatable. And I have also experienced that in my life. So I'm like very insimpatico with you right now because and I think a lot of people can relate to that of having a feeling in your life where you get something you've always wanted.

1:01:27But then the fear of losing it, it starts to take over your entire body. It eats away at you. And you feel like as big as it keeps getting, you almost you don't have time to stop and process it and enjoy it. And it's like all of a sudden your greatest like happiness that was this passion thing becomes this nightmare. Exactly. That only you can kind of re-regulate and be like, if all this goes away tomorrow, I'm still me. I have my husband. I have my family. And it doesn't have to go away tomorrow. But I have to believe that if I need to know, I would be OK if it didn't. So I can re-regulate. My therapist made me go through a scenario.

1:02:02She's like, okay, it's all done. What are you doing? And like, she made me walk through it. She's like, what do you do? She's like, what's your priority? I'm like, well, I need to make sure that my kids have, like we went through every worst case scenario and she had me figure my way out through it until I realized like, I am, I will survive. I am like strong. I am like able to adapt and pivot if I need to. And like, so like knowing that, that gave me a freedom to be like, yeah, okay. I'll do the thing that I want to do. Like worst case scenario, I'll be like a florist slash like DJ slash like amateur marine biologist.

1:02:40Like I wanted to be like as a kid. Did you want to? Okay. When I was in middle school, DJ marine biologist. Yes. Okay. Like when I was in middle school, when I was in middle school, I had this, like, I loved shark. I still love sharks. Okay. I wanted to be a marine biologist as well as a writer. Okay. But like I had this dream of like living like on the beach and like the Caribbean, like sleeping in a hammock at night and then like going out in the morning with like my spearfishing gun and catching my like lobster for breakfast. And then I go out and study sharks all day. And like that was the life I was going to lead.

1:03:14So you're like, I could tap back into that, guys. I nearly flunked every science and math course, which is why I did not become a marine biologist. Freshman bio, I was like just on the verge of an half the entire year. It's good to know, though. Like if all this goes away, we know where to look for you. Find me on the open seas.

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1:04:59Let's talk bank accounts for a second. The average bank savings rate is 0.39 % in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings, but it doesn't have to be that way, Daddy Gang. With SoFi's high yield checking and savings, the money barely making moves sitting in your savings account can earn over eight times the national average savings rate with eligible direct deposit. No account or overdraft fees. You can get your paycheck up to two days early, plus get an epic welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit. Sign up for SoFi checking and savings at SoFi.com slash call her daddy today.

1:05:40SoFi checking and savings is offered through SoFi Bank and a member FDIC Terms Apply. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by T-Mobile. Daddies, I'm starting to suspect that a night in is the new nightlife, okay? This is my life now, snacks, comfy clothes. I wanna romanticize doing absolutely nothing. And on those nights when I'm staying in, T-Mobile has me covered with value that keeps on stacking up the more I use it. like, hi, streaming benefits and snack perks that truly deliver. Guys, the math is mathing, okay? There are so many perks and benefits. T-Mobile is basically making staying in a full-blown lifestyle powered by carbs and content.

1:06:22I am a T-Mobile stan, okay? Anyone that makes me feel not only better, but great about staying in, yeah, I love you, T-Mobile, okay? And if you have T-Mobile like I do, you won't believe how good staying in can be. check it out at t-mobile.com slash magenta status disclaimer streaming benefits included while you maintain a qualifying experience beyond plan line i love that we also just hit on like f the whole system of like oh my god she's just talking about sex and we just went through all this really intense fucking shit and now we can talk about the sex in a fun way because that is not just what it is but it's a huge major point my parents i'm not even telling them about this okay don't even tell Yeah, don't tell mom and dad.

1:07:07Don't tell mom and dad. They're never going to watch this. They won't even know. No, they don't even know how to use an iPad. Perfect. My dad's reading the paper newspaper still. This won't be in the newspaper. No. Hopefully. Oh, God. Maybe it'll get really good. Okay. I was thinking about it. You talked about how like you love to write about the push and pull in relationships romantically, which like obviously we all love it. But what first you specifically really makes you tick about that type of dynamic? I just like if I'm like, does that kind of turn me on? yeah okay then i'm gonna fucking write it and like that dynamic like the characters have to like have that spark initially it's almost beyond me where like if they don't like and sometimes like two characters will like get together and there's like something there that i didn't even like plan i'm like okay like we're gonna go with that and i like the way like that makes me feel like there's something there that i can't put my finger on but there is like a chemistry give me an example.

1:08:03I mean, when I was first writing ACOTAR a million bajillion years ago, those initial few weeks, I was just going by like, like headlights style. Like I would only write as far as I could just like see like, you know, like down the road. And so fair, I just was writing as it came to me. Like I did not plan that book. It just poured out of me. So like, I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't plan it out beforehand. So Feyre, like there's a beast and I'm like, oh, this guy's like hot and like she gets to his like house and i'm like oh he's sexy and then like we get to like the he gets in the night when reese shows up and then i'm like oh no oh no like it's not this guy it's this guy and then like and so like that was like so like that initial seed like i was like this is a sweet little romance with like like beauty and the beast with like pharah and tamlin and then like page whatever it's like reese walks on and like i did not plan him he walked into that scene ahead of time i was like again like writing this in real time not planning it i had nothing to do i didn't have a job at that time so i just was like writing like whatever came out of me that day and so like i one of the most epic scenes you're like it just happened in my brain it literally i was just writing this scene where like i had planned for there to be like you know like sexy like bonfires all of that and then like through the smoke all of a sudden here he comes this guy comes and i'm like who the fuck is this and then like he's there and i'm like oh no like this is what we're doing so it's like that kind of thing where i'm like amazing like and that's just like i saw it and like felt it all like but then like of course like it was so funny when like the first acotar came out and people were like i love tamlin so much i got a tattoo of him and like knowing what like was going to happen i was like i was like i'm so happy like i'm so happy for you also i'm so sorry i will give you i will pay for the tattoo laser removal in like a year um well no it was such a mind fuck because i also was falling in love with tamlin and then i was like what is happening but i wanted it to be like like you know like when you fall in love with a guy and then you realize like he's not the one for you and like he's got a lot of fucking issues yes across your books if you had to say right now today which couple is your current favorite oh my god i don't know that's really really hard and depends on my mood i don't know okay that's impossible i don't like that i i can't i can't i love them all again like i have to feel it and like feel that like sexiness and like i don't like and i have to be like obsessed with them okay fuck marry kill reesand hunt rowan okay okay okay okay okay okay i'm like trying to think of like the realities of my own marriage and like what has worked and what doesn't work okay i'm like which one of them farts the least that's the one i want to marry perfect because i live with that reality well you know you know you wrote these people i don't know this is hard i mean like i kind of like want to fuck all of them i mean to be quite honest and marry all i don't want to kill any of them i you'll fuck them all yeah i'll just honestly you make the rules today sarah okay you want to fuck them all yeah i'm fine my parents aren't listening to this yeah let's i'll fuck they have no idea my son is listening your son and your husband are in the other room but that's fine yeah no no i hope they know what to expect yeah is it true that you you like part of your process is you sit and ponder how sexy the character's potential name is before officially giving it to them oh yeah again like i am like i will always be like a legolas fangirl and part of that's like his name and like like what if his name like i mean no offense to anyone but like frank right you're like frank right like i'm not getting off to frank the elf warrior prince we are there any names that almost made the cut in your series but didn't that you could share i mean nothing like yeah nothing i don't think i've like named like i every like i've used up like all my hot but like usually like if like someone's attractive i'm like okay let's find the hottest name and then i'll like go through like baby name websites and And I'm like, sexy Celtic warrior god with abs of steel.

1:12:12What name is that? I wish I could see your Google searches. It would be sad. It would be like, what time's the next La Boo Boo drop? And then like, show me abs. And what are good names? And what are hot baby names? Sexy, sexy baby names, which I'm sure is a very strange thing to. I was so messed up from it because when I was reading it at first, I was in my own world and I really thought his name was Rysand. Oh. And then I thought, you're like, oh, you idiot. And then I thought, Sarah. No. I allow any and all pronunciations. You do? It's a safe space. I am not going to judge. I am a reader first and foremost.

1:12:53Okay. So I understand. Well, because when you shorten it to Rys, it looks like Rys instead of Reese. And then I remember going on TikTok and I was like, oh, my God, I'm an idiot. it and so then i had to like retrain my brain which is fine and pharah i forget i think it's not a natural one reese is an actual like name in this world wouldn't it be r-e-e well it can be spelled like that but there's isn't there like a phillies player you're right i got reese reese yeah yeah yeah whatever i don't know his it's not like pharah is a made-up name that one how did you come up with that i don't know that was just like i was like i was like what sounds cool.

1:13:29Feyre, done. Done. We're done. Okay. We need to quickly talk about the Tamlin and Rhysand thing because it is a big conversation that I think people are going to kill me if I don't ask about. Obviously, throughout the ACOTAR books, we saw Tamlin trying to justify his controlling tendencies by saying things like, oh my gosh, I'm just doing it to protect Feyre. Then he locks her in the manor, which was infuriating and wild. What were you hoping for readers to understand about their relationship as that slowly started to progress because you're right you made us all fall in love with him and get tattoos about him and then and then yeah and you know what i think like people change in relationships and what pharah and to be fair tamlin went through under the mountain fucked them both up majorly and tamlin is someone that you know we haven't delved too deeply into this but it's been put in the books like he had a fucked up family he did not have any systems in place to cope with that but he also is a guy who's been like in charge and powerful for a long time and then like someone's like stand like he doesn't know he doesn't have the emotional toolkit to handle this and he implodes and he drags her down with him um and that was just like it just felt natural to me like it just felt like a natural thing where like i knew who tamlin was as a person knew like that this is how he would react and this like shows who he is and it's like reese responds to the trauma in a different way in the way that Feyre needs and connects with.

1:15:14Tamlin can't handle that trauma. And it's, you know, he made his own choices, but he's also the result of his upbringing. So there's an element of like me that I pity him, you know, in the same way I'd pity like anyone who's like endured like an abusive family trauma, all of that. Like he's been through it and he doesn't know how to cope with it. And like he does shitty things because of it. and I'm not like excusing those shitty things because like that is why Feyre moved on. But I wanted Feyre to like realize like there are different ways to face the shit that you go through and that's what defines you.

1:15:50The wedding scene. Oh yeah. I loved it so much because I thought it was actually such, again, such an accurate representation of a woman before those doors open. Yeah. And you see so many women who talk about, I kind of knew before I went down the aisle, so why did I do it? Yeah. And you slowed it down so perfectly that it was this like horrifying, amazing moment that it was just it was amazing. Do you think Tamlin will ever have a full redemption arc? I don't know. it's tricky because i've had so many women especially including some like very dear friends of mine who've like come up and told me about like how they saw their own abusive relationship mirrored in tamlin and so if i were to ever write like more about tamlin it would be done in a way where like it doesn't erase what he has done it and it doesn't like invalidate the feelings of like my readers who have connected to that like i would like it would have to be done in a way that was genuine to him and to reality but also like well aware of like what he means for like different types of people and different experiences and to honor and respect them for that and like i don't usually like let those things dictate what i write but it's something like one of my very best friends is like a survivor of domestic abuse and like you know she often refers to her ex as tamlin and like i've actually talked to her about it like how would you feel like you know like like if just like me as the create like separating us as friends like would that feel like a betrayal to you um and so like we've had like interesting conversations about it but it's something i'd really want to think about and i've given myself like several options um because it's something that's probably like the hardest thing for me to figure like to be quite honest like that's tricky for me it's tricky for me also just emotionally because like part of me wants to be like that fucker can burn in hell forever but like as a writer i'm like but like what is the story like what what is like and like not to excuse him for any of it but just explore it i love hearing your thought process though because again it's like this world and then pulling out of it like they are such like real themes and then also hearing the dynamic like i'm curious how did you obviously reese is the highest fae in existence and so how highest or hottest both both both sarah how did you decide like how favor was going to maintain her autonomy me in that type of relationship i mean that should be just like a given thing in any relationship regardless of like who has power and what and like i don't know i'm not attracted to fucking assholes like my husband and i have been together actually since i was 18 for all my like crapping on like you know like people should have multiple romantic partners my husband was like my first and only boyfriend um yeah but like he we are equals we are partners in this and like i don't i Like, I think I just demand that, like, the females in my books, like, have those relationships of, like, respect and, like, partnership.

1:19:14Just, like, because that's what I demand, like, of myself and what I expect of myself. And, like, that's what I have. That's the gift that I've been given is someone that, like, respects me and, like, honors me and, like, loves me. And, like, the power dynamic thing, I'm, like, you know, like, I don't know. it's kind of like i think it's like really kind of hot that like the super powerful dude like wants to get on his knees in front of this late like like she is in control of him 100 percent um but even but she doesn't want control over him she wants a partner like she doesn't want like you know like they do have like a push pull of like sexy like who's in charge of what but like they they ultimately like they want a lover who is also like a best friend that like they can be equal with and speak to on an honest level.

1:19:58I think the fans perception of Rhysand was really tested when he didn't clearly communicate the risks of what could happen in this pregnancy to her. What is your take on that? I mean, Rhys is entitled to like go through his own shit and make his own mistakes. And should he have told Feyre? Yes. But he was absolutely terrified, like faced with like like i don't know like i just tried to decide like reese in that choice like he made a bad choice i think like it was not that like pharaoh was obviously upset like nesta thought it was fucked up um and like he i love reese smoking hot like i love who he is beyond that but like i think it's much more interesting for me as a writer to have him make perhaps a bad call and do it from a place of love and then like be able to reflect later being like maybe i did like the thing here that like the ex-boyfriend like also kind of did and like that's not okay and like what do i learn from it like yeah he's like 500 years old he's still learning yeah like Like he's never like been like he's never been a mate husband.

1:21:14He's never had a pregnant mate. He's frantic. Like he finds out she's been given a death sentence, but she's full of joy about it. And how do you be that person that takes the joy away? Like how like and Feyre would have wanted to know, but I can understand why Reese didn't want to tell her because there was just like he was so desperate to find us. Like, why stress her out until like he was desperate for a solution? And like. No, and you're right. It's so much more interesting to read from that perspective instead of like, oh, then I tell her and everything like. Yeah, no, like they need to have like issue like they're it's true of their mates, but like they will like they do have issues that they need to sort out.

1:21:56They have they've come from very different backgrounds. They're still figuring out the dynamic. They're both navigating a whole new scenario and like they can make mistakes. Both of them can make mistakes. what do you think was the most romantic moment you wrote between Reese and Feyre starfall I think when like she gets like they get splattered with like the glitter or whatever like I don't know there's something about that that scene always stands out for me I love like I still hear like like that scene was very much inspired by Florence and the Machine's cosmic love and it's like every time I like hear that song I'm like taken back to like being at the house of wind like seeing them yeah how is it so crazy the way that chapter 55 has like everyone's like chapter 55 chapter 55 you're like oh my did you know like where what was your headspace when you were writing that i just was like finally they're finally fucking like good like i can't wait for this and so i just like and but like it was like such an emotional release because it was like the build-up of the entire backstory that i as the writer had been waiting and waiting, waiting to finally like reveal.

1:23:04And like, I got to get that out of my system and lay it all out there. And then like the consummation of that. And I just was like, this is everything. And this was so satisfying. So I was like crying, but then also just like, yeah, this is hot. It just was, but like I, and so for it to become like a thing, like that actually means a lot to me because that was a scene that I had looked forward to writing for so, so long that when it finally came out of me, like it's almost exactly like verbatim, like the way it poured out of me, like not much change between like the initial version of that scene and the published ones.

1:23:35Like it just means a lot that it connected. Like it's become a thing. Oh, girl, it hit. You mentioned mates. And to just quickly go through that, because I don't know if we still have people that are listening that aren't familiar with the books. I would be shocked. You should be gone. You should be gone. We're a little too in the weeds. But can you just quickly explain like what that means in the world's mates? It's kind of like you're destined true love in a way but it's complicated because there's a biological component to it where like you can be mated to someone that is like not actually your true love it's like there's like true true mates and then there's kind of like nature made a mistake made like reese's parents did not love each other like it was not a great relationship um but they were mates and it was like a like there's a biological thing where they're like we want to be together but then it's like we're fucking miserable with each other especially his mom so it's like it's tricky but then when you find your perfect mate like Reese and Feyre Cassian that's like that is like the like last little piece of your soul that was like kind of a little broken and is now like you you found your person but the rejecting of mates is Elaine rejecting the bond with Lucian I think Elaine's got like her own trauma and shit that she's going through right now i mean like imagine like being transformed into like a whole new body a whole new lifestyle like you are gone from like a i don't know and like the human world they're like what 60 years is a good life to suddenly like centuries like a millennium like the world looks very different and like surprise like you've been like forcibly like essentially married to like a stranger who also was like involved in bringing you into this world and like betraying you and like shoving you into the cauldron it's like a lot she's she's got a lot of shit that she's processing and so like exploring like a concept of a free will like what does that look like with a mating bond what like what does that mean and like does nature like get it wrong sometimes does it get it right sometimes like what and like that again like as a writer i have to be like very i'm like i like to like find things that like make me interested like no you get made it to someone and like you don't want to be mated i'm like look like what what do you do like you're stuck with this person like what like what do you do but like i mean the guy's like hot but it's like what if it's not like you don't know like it's just it's something that like i really like find to be an interesting concept versus like Feyre and Nesta were so easy for them.

1:26:13Like, nature picked right. But I was thinking also when we were talking about chapter 55 and all the things like I. Is it true that your grandmother reads these books? Oh, my God. Yes. I don't know what's worse. My grandma or my mother-in-law reading them. Or your dad. My dad. Well, my dad at least has been like, we don't speak of this. OK, so he won't bring it up. No, but like. But does he read it all? He used to. I feel like silver flames might have like broken him or he was like, this isn't for me anymore. Back to the newspaper. Back to the New York Times. But yeah, my grandma reads them like everyone in her like, I know she wouldn't like the term nursing home, but like old people's community reads them.

1:27:01And so I'm like, are you all getting like frisky like reading this? It's like she's 95 years old. She's amazing. She is like my number one like icon in my life. Oh, my God. But like she's gotten like all the people reading it. Wait, did she ever give you feedback? No, but then like on the opposite end of that, my mother-in-law has like grilled me and been like, are like the sex scenes in this inspired by you and Josh? And I'm like, yeah, when I'm like fucking your son, I am writing down notes. Would you like me to describe everything for you, Linda? She's like, yes, actually. And I'm like, no, no, no.

1:27:42I'm like, we don't talk about these things. That is. It's mortifying. What are grandma and mother-in-law's favorite series? I think, I don't know, actually. For grandma, I don't know. She's read like all of it. Oh, she's on it. I feel like my mother-in-law probably loves ACOTAR the most. Does she love Rhysand? Yes, I think she like pretends that it's like Josh, even though it's not. He's not. She's like, oh, Josh. Josh is like, mom, it's not me. No, no, it is not. The number of times I've had to say, like, it is not. He does not. They have both have dark hair. And that's it. That's it. That's the only similarity.

1:28:22I think that's so funny because, like, I have had that where people, because I have talked about sex on my platform, people feel comfortable to come up to me and talk about sex. Have you had any like really wild interactions where people are, whether they're asking details more about the character sex or they're asking you about sex? Oh, God, I'm trying to think of what. I mean, like I had a mother come up to me like a like 50 something year old mother and be like, I just want to say like my daughter loves your books and you've completely like revolutionized her sex life. and I was like well I'm sure she appreciates you telling me that you're like I amazing I was like I love that your daughter but I also was like I kind of love that you guys have this dynamic we're like you know about this right I'm like I think that's really cool but also like I don't know what to say to you as the mother of this child who's maybe though it is so um there's a weird thing maybe because it is fantasy there is like it kind of is the it bridges the gap of just like episode three of call her daddy me being like this is how you give head and then like meanwhile with like reese and and faeira and tamlin all these dynamics it's a little bit more like yeah like it's you can ease the blow when you find out that your mother or your sister or your friend is reading it yeah you know like i actually learned probably more about sex from like books and stuff because it just seemed a lot less scary to me and felt like very safe and like connected to like things like plot in the world and so like that was like how i like learned like i would not have like so i think you're i think you're absolutely right

1:30:19call her daddy is brought to you by sofi the all-in-one finance app where you can bank borrow and invest all in one place. Let's talk bank accounts for a second. The average bank savings rate is 0.39 % in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings, but it doesn't have to be that way, Daddy Gang. With SoFi's high yield checking and savings, the money barely making moves sitting in your savings account can earn over eight times the national average savings rate with eligible direct deposit. No account or overdraft fees. You can get your paycheck up to two days early, plus get an epic welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit.

1:31:00Sign up for SoFi Checking and Savings at SoFi.com slash callherdaddy today. SoFi Checking and Savings is offered through SoFi Bank and a member FDIC Terms Apply. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by T-Mobile. Daddies, I'm starting to suspect that a night in is the new nightlife, okay? This is my life now, snacks, comfy clothes. I wanna romanticize doing absolutely nothing. And on those nights, when I'm staying in, T-Mobile has me covered with value that keeps on stacking up the more I use it. Like, hi, streaming benefits and snack perks that truly deliver. Guys, the math is mathing, okay? There are so many perks and benefits.

1:31:43T-Mobile is basically making staying in a full-blown lifestyle powered by carbs and content. I am a T-Mobile stan, okay? Anyone that makes me feel not only better, but great about staying in, yeah, I love you, T-Mobile, okay? And if you have T-Mobile like I do, you won't believe how good staying in can be. Check it out at t-mobile.com slash magenta status. Disclaimer, streaming benefits included while you maintain a qualifying experience beyond plan line. so you're in los angeles yes you're here for call her daddy yes but i need to ask you a pretty pointed question okay i feel like you've like asked me a lot of intense questions so i'm very eager to hear what you could be okay i think we need to address your instagram post which one Alex well Sarah the one that quite literally lit the internet on fire where fans could not tell if it was an arrow or if it was a six to eight like everyone has been freaking out and so I have the pleasure of sitting across from you and so I have to ask okay sarah what is going on okay well first of all i guess i have really shitty handwriting like really fucking shitty handwriting if my like arrows and like numbers look messed up like i'm ashamed of this like that was not intentional at all um but i will say that that was akatar six with the arrow pointing forward to indicate like things going ahead of that um and it is for the next akatar book which is coming out on october 27th of this year um i've been working and working on that it's been a long time coming um it's something that i it took me a long time to write just because there were enough things going on in my life that I had to like sort through and I had to like and again like I will talk about that perhaps in more detail one I've already cried once today don't make me do it again Alex I don't yeah I like my makeup stayed intact let's not push it um but that it's taken a while because it took me a while to find the right story and to be in the right headspace um and then like what poured out of me was this and it poured out like very quickly um i was in montana this summer and like i don't know like i think there's like some kind of like energy vortex like around big sky because like i just got there and like it clicked it all came out of me so like talking about like deadline like that's what i was working on like i've been working on like this next project um not gonna tell you the title yet but like it's or like cover any of that no like i've seen i've seen some of it and i'm can you tell us length i mean it is i mean no i don't want to say any i feel like ever i mean like it's long it's long you can't tell us whose POV it's from?

1:35:08Um, no. And that was one of the like surprising things for me and like writing this and like what came out of like, it's, you get a lot of like insight into like various things. Like it's okay. Hold on though. Because if I know anything about you, you all, there's always a plot twist. You've always got something also that's like, oh, you thought this, but also this so is there anything else you want to share here on call her daddy today okay well part of why i guess it's tricky to talk about the length of this book is because this book's coming out october 27th and then on january 12th like two months later i can't do math whatever that is the next ACOTAR book will be coming out.

1:35:59So there will be two books within like a very short span. Oh. And what that means in giving you like a glimpse into this project is just the story that was finally ready to come out of me was big. Really, really, really big. And as I started writing this in like this, like Montana, like energy vortex, like it came out of me in a way that surprised me and by the time I reached like you know I like to do like parts in my part one part two by the time I got to like the end of part one it was like 400 pages long and there is a certain reality to books like kingdom of ash like had to be like two pages because like the glue will not hold books together but like what I was writing felt right.

1:36:49Like that was what the story that needed to be told. And so I decided I wasn't going to approach this project from a traditional format of a book. And what if this story, like what if this book was really fucking long? Like what if it took me more than a thousand pages to tell the story that needed to be told, the arc that I wanted to create from start to finish? What if that took a long time? Like, what if that took beyond the constraints of a single volume? And what does that look like? How do I tell that story? And so part one was this huge, huge thing. And then I realized it was going to be four parts, a book told in four parts.

1:37:32So then I wrote part two and part three. And those were really fucking long. and so like and then part four has yet to be written because i'm right now i'm trying to just get part one which is out in october and then parts two and three which will be out in january is like one combined thing so it's basically gonna be like three physical volumes but it's like one thing altogether that like no amount of glue in like any publisher's like factory could ever like hold this so it's meant to be read ideally as like one massive massive story as opposed to like in like a trilogy it's not a trilogy like arcs aren't like wrapped up it's like in the way like you know you take my book it's like if you expand it all a part one all a part two all parts like all part like it would be huge like that and so i just decided like i've never told a story that way this is how it wants to come out why do i have to be held back by the realities of like the glue that we need to hold like hold the pages in or just like placement on a shelf and like how do i get this story out to my readers who've been waiting like so patiently like as soon as i can like i could not live with the idea of like publishing part one and then being like you got to wait like a year for like then i was like no like i want that in everyone's hands and so that's why we're doing like this like back-to-back release so there's going to be like a lot of ACOTAR in a very short time um and then eventually like the conclusion will be like written like once once I get I want to get these like I don't want anyone to wait any longer um but it's like it's a different it's you know it's ACOTAR but just I'm telling it in a way that's exciting to me and like gives me like the space that the story demanded and the characters demanded did um oh yeah i'm trying and i'm sure everyone's trying to do this right now i'm trying to rack my brain around like every easter egg you just gave us of like who's what story needs to be told all of like the way that it's being formatted but like i cannot wait for october i am so excited that you because the last time you came out was 2021 with the last akatar yeah yeah i think it was god was it oh my god that was so long i know it's been and that's and that's why i was like i'm not playing by anyone else's rules like this is like i want the most important thing for me is to write these stories the way they need to be told but to also like honor my fans who like make all this possible and like i'm not playing by like industry rules i'm not playing by like marketing what i'm doing like what feels organic and like good for me and like my my readership and like i want to do it in a way that's fun and like we can all like have a great time like where it's just like the story will unfold like in the way it's like in the fat in the way that i feel like would be the most fun to like for all of us like come together and be like oh like what's going on and i am like what the fuck are you doing over there like i there's a lot of scheming happening and what was it like coming back to the acatar series and like writing and getting your head in this i mean it was it was obviously like hard and again there's like an element to it where i'm like okay like shit that was like tricky like unrelated to the books but related to the books that I had to like navigate and like figure out.

1:41:08And I wasn't ever going to force myself to write a book because like that doesn't make a good book. But I'm also someone who like I take no shit from myself or I'm like if I feel like I have writer's block, I'm like get your ass in the chair and work. But this was different. This was different. This wasn't like me like just wall. This was a level of like I needed to get something sorted out first. And so this came out like when I was when it was ready to come out when I was right, like when this right story hit me, like it hit me hard. And I had a vision from the start of like what it would be, how I would deliver it to you guys.

1:41:44And like, that's what I want to do. And like getting to be in the driver's seat and decide like, this is how I want to tell stories. And like, if I want to adapt it for like every new book or like just like arc, I can do that. Like I can do that. And like, why not? Like, why can't we tell? Like, why do we have to like stick to like these boxes of like, this is how you tell a story from A to B? I'm like, no, like what if we do something different? Like I am like, what are you up to over there? I can't. Oh, my God. The theories are going to go crazy. Oh, my God. I'm like, what? What did you do? Well, now I'm thinking that I'm just like I'm juggling editing two books at once, two massive, massive books at once.

1:42:23So I'm just like, you're in it. That's why I'm like pounding like Diet Cokes and coffee. okay well we're almost done i we are gonna end with some rapid fire okay and i don't know if you'll answer any of these okay but i'm gonna try okay because i'm a fan okay and i've got to try for the girlies out there okay okay okay so shut me down but shut me down easy okay we're gonna start from the beginning we're gonna start with the throne of glass what did lorkin do oh someone explain this to me like the like a couple months ago i i don't know i i didn't know how to feel about it then i don't know how i feel about it now i mean like maybe like bonus content and like surprise present christmas present sometime for all all y 'all okay where is vaughn you know that's actually a thing that i think about a lot a lot and that's all i'll say about that okay is the settling the same or similar as the drop i don't i don't you're asking okay let's skip just skip just skip just go go go you're like skip just say skip if you can't answer it why did aelin have to lose her powers i mean i do think that like

1:43:39i actually really grappled with that one where i was like i hate the idea of her having to give up something that she learned to love and embrace but at the same time like i do think that like there needed there needs to be some level of sacrifice when it comes to making a decision like that big to give up something that you love for something else like that's powerful and i don't think it would the ending would have felt as deserved but then i also think it opens up again in my like endless thinking about things like just in me as her creator and writing this like what does it look like for her after that you know like you go from like all this power then you give it up and like how does that feel like i just i find that there was like even with that as an ending it felt like a different start of like a journey for me that just like was fascinating for me i feel like people online have expressed frustration that some of the female characters like her and nesta have had to sacrifice their powers and strength well you know male characters have not what is your response to that like these books are about women coming into their power and but also like taking away the magic doesn't take away from their strength and i think like that's what like nesta and aelin realizes that like they're still fucking badasses and i think that's why it's so easy for nesta in the end because she's like i this wasn't this didn't define her and she's still like she's still nesta and so like losing that like doesn't make you any less of a hero doesn't make you any less strong um love it yeah okay will we ever see our throne of glass characters again i mean obviously i've told i think about them all the time so who knows there's gotta if my children let me sleep in past 5 a.m sure perfect kids Come on, Josh, get it together.

1:45:31Where is Manon now? Is she working to rebuild the waste? Like, what are we doing? I mean, she's, honestly, she should be in therapy. Okay. That's where she is right now. Let's assume she's in therapy because she went through a lot, a lot. What happened to the world of Throne of Glass book? Will that ever be released? That wound up being a project that I wanted, I thought would be easy. and then I realized like no like I need to actually like this means a lot to me and I need to dedicate a lot of time but I don't have that time because I want to focus on getting these books the actual books out so maybe that's something that I like it's still something I want to do but maybe it comes at a different time all right ACOTAR why is there a pool of starlight in the spring court is it a portal who thinks of these things you I mean I do I do look at that people read too closely i don't know i don't i'm not answering okay i'm not answering that okay how do faye get into the house of wind because they don't have wings like do they climb the stairs this might be something that you find out okay what is rees and's last name i'm not telling anyone there's so much pressure now does it even matter no i mean like he's one of one okay right what is the king of highburn's actual name red frank frank i don't actually yeah because that actually that actually might be something that we could find that is discussed okay what are moore's powers like truth truth but you like have other powers beyond that but i don't i'm not gonna reveal any more about there might be more about that Hey, I'm just trying to get things out of you.

1:47:21You know what? Everything is possible. Everything you're asking me right now could just be like, yes. Yes. The answer is yes. You'll find out. Okay. Can you tell us anything about the desk court and are you going to explore any of it in your next book?

1:47:37Yeah, but you have to know, like, what do you want me to say, Alex? What do you want me to say here? I love you. What do you want me to say? Okay. Okay. Okay. We're moving on. I just if anything, I'm just getting pleasure out of asking. You don't even need to answer. OK. Tell me if I'm pronouncing this right. Where did Bri Axis go? That was good. Thank you. I mean, where do you think she went? What do you think she. Is up to. I mean, fear itself. What is that like? Where does that go? Who is Mama Archeron? Is she a descendant of the Iron Teeth witches?

1:48:16You're like, you're putting me in pain. Is there like an alcoholic drink here? I feel like that's what I need. You're like, I need wine. I need a spicy margarita. Okay, we're going to Crescent City. Okay. We never saw the body. So is Cormac actually dead? Where did you find these? All of me and my friends putting this together. I'd be like, this is the time of our life. I can like see you with like string and like putting things on me. My husband was really like, what's this episode? I'm like, don't worry about it. What isn't it? Exactly. Our Bryce and Hunt endgame. Yes. Well, I don't. Where does that come?

1:48:50How could it be? Well, there are a lot of theories that Bryce's true mate is Asriel. Is there any truth to that? No, I can. I can tell you right. I'm sorry to anyone that's shipped that and it's like been like ride or die with that. But like, no, it's Bryce and Hunt. How did the Book of Breathings and The Walking Dead end up in Jessiba's library? I don't know. You'll have to stay tuned for answers. There are a lot of theories that Reese and Rune are related. Can you confirm or deny?

1:49:22You're like, fuck off. You can say fuck off. I'm not saying that. I like you. I'm not going to. OK, fair, fair. Is Maeve related to any of them? I mean, like, I feel like I should just hand over my notebooks to you and you can like comb through them for all the little notes that I've made. Yeah. OK, I have to ask, why are there otters in Crescent City? Why aren't there otters? It's like, otters are one of my favorite animals. Like, I lose my shit. Like, river otters, sea otters. I don't know why. I lose it. And so I just was like, what's the cutest thing that, like, an otter could do? And it's, like, kind of like an aquatic, like, you know, like, city.

1:50:00Like, what if otters were just, like, messengers with their little paws handing letters? I love that. You're like, I just put it in there because I like it. It just sounded cute to me. Yeah. It just sounded cute. Okay. Who or what is Fury Axtar? is she the mercenary that Feyre met in the first ACOTAR? These are like, again, these questions that are like, you're asking me things that I'm not sure if I could, should confirm or deny or just like let people. Am I ruining people's dreams by answering these things? I don't know. We've all seen the now deleted Twilight of the Gods Pinterest board. Really?

1:50:40What's going on there? that was just like a story that i like it was kind of like crescent city where like i always have like manuscripts and other stories in my head like i think i have probably like three or four like unpublished full books for like different series like on my computer that just like i don't know if they'll ever see the light of day but like sometimes i just get a story in my head and like i want to start writing it and like i like get like ideas for it and it comes out and sometimes i want to share that with the world and sometimes i don't okay who would win in a fight bryce aelin farah or manon they wouldn't fight they would all be like this is dumb we should support each other and let's go get like in and out burger together okay you obviously are in a success and like a league of your own.

1:51:33You've had just like such an incredible career already. And I know we've talked about the pressures and also the beauty of it. How do you define success at this point in your career? I mean, for me, it's two things. Success is two things. One, it's getting to tell the stories that I want to tell, how and when I want to tell them. That's a gift. That's a wonderful blessing to have that's all i ever wanted from when i was a kid but it's also like am i happy am i happy in my life doing this am i like what is the balance and like have i like do i feel successful in that do i feel like i'm able to create from a place of joy and curiosity and excitement while also having a life that is like fulfilling and fun and like I get to be a mom to these two incredible kids and like a wife to like an awesome husband like and like what like that like having that and finding joy from that from things outside of my books that feels successful to me like I've built something beautiful completely unrelated to that but yeah it is so beautiful and also like what is so cool too is like you have completely changed the way that people think about romanticity books and you have given essentially legitimacy i feel like to an entire genre that was either dismissed or overlooked at one point how do you feel about your legacy in the literary world this is gonna sound like silly and you probably like won't believe me, but just like talking about things like legacy is like beyond for me.

1:53:18When I started writing, when I started trying to get published, like I told myself like, you know, anytime I got a rejection, you know, I was rejected by every single agent except one, every single publisher except one. And those times I told myself it didn't matter if it took me until I was 90 years old to publish a book if it wasn't the book i was trying to get published i'd write the next one and the next one and the next one until it happened and so like i was willing to have a life where like just one book eventually made it and that's was like and that still was kind of like that was the dream and so everything else beyond then has been insane like insane to me because i'm still very much that like girl in middle school or high school like sneaking off to like watch anime or like drool over like a list and like getting to go like play in these worlds in my head and like do the thing that like makes me come alive every day is like that's incredible and so like talking about like these books going beyond that and meaning something and like playing whatever role they have and like letting other similar books like get out there and like be appreciated and those like authors be appreciated like that that's all like i i just like i feel very very blessed very humbled like i i love that people are reading like people like i mean as a kid i just wanted someone to read my shit and be like it's good like that's all i wanted um i also think it's such a great inspiring story because someone like you again like a lot of times we get the success stories, right?

1:55:03You're sitting here and you're so well known and you've had such success. But a lot of people could be sitting right now watching this being like, I've wanted to be a writer or I've wanted to be whatever it be. And when you are told no so many times, that can be depleting. And the fact that you are where you are today, even though people looked at you being like, you're insane. This isn't going to work. You had people in jobs look at you and roll their eyes about writing fantasy, right? And look at the empire that you've built. Like what an incredible testimony to women listening of like, if anything, I genuinely believe that when people are telling you that you're crazy for wanting to start something or do something, and they're all looking at you kind of cross-eyed, that is like your first indicator that you're onto something incredible.

1:55:48Oh, yeah. Anytime someone told me I couldn't do something, I would say, watch me. Just watch me. You said you're like, I'll sign the book one day. yeah yeah where where are they now yeah where are they now and just like i don't know like i wrote the thing that i love like i wrote the stuff that i love that i've always loved and like i was always flabbergasted that anyone especially like older adults would tell like a young person like like it's not worth your time it will never happen i'm like why can't we all be supportive of our dreams and like but thankfully like i knew what i wanted like i knew this was what i wanted to do.

1:56:25And so there was nothing that was going to stop me from that. But I also was willing to like, if it took me till I was 90, that was just what I want. Just one book that came out when I was 90 years old. Like that would have been wonderful. And look how many you have and more to come. And more to come. I cannot thank you enough for sitting down with me. I'm sure you can feel I could have kept going. Like I have. I'm very comfortable right now. I have so many questions. There's so many like world building questions and character arcs. And I recognize I was trying to do a balance of getting to know you also getting into your psyche.

1:57:01And I think we found a good balance of the themes in your life that have inspired some of these incredible worlds and characters. But it was really fun to sit down with you because I've been a fan from afar. And now getting to sit with you, I feel even more invested weirdly. and I'm like now I need to go back and read all of these before October. No pressure. I'm very glad that I didn't like disappoint you and you were like she was the worst and like the most boring. If anything I don't want you to leave. When we turn off the cameras make oh wait and one more question another question another question.

1:57:34I'm going to Montana. You want to come to Montana with me. We're going to Montana. Bye everyone. Let's go. I'll show you the vortex where everything where you wrote it all. Yes. I'll show you the magic vortex. Sarah. Thank you so much for coming on Caller Daddy. It was an honor. It was actually an honor. I mean, like we talked about like me and like what you have done. Like, again, like my friends don't give a shit about me. I mean, like they do. They're proud of me. But like me coming on here, like this was a big, big deal for them. And like, thank you for making me feel cool. You are cool. I don't know about that.

1:58:08I mean, you are. You are literally so cool. And you are building worlds. I don't that all of us are obsessed with. I don't know what could be a cooler job. Like what you have in your brain has made all of us into this insane fandom. Like bow down to you. Great work. Great work.

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