Shonda Rhimes: Women Need To Brag More

21:44Talk to me about the casting process. How involved were you? Very involved. Okay. Who was the first person, like, big main cast that you casted? I'm not sure who was the first person. I remember, like, everybody coming in to read. And I remember T.R. Knight being like one of the very first people to come in to read for a role and us being like, we love him immediately. Like, I remember that really, really clearly. Do you remember Meredith Grey moment? Oh, well, so that was even better. Ellen never came in to read. Oh. And I don't think we ever read any Meredith Grays. I remember saying to people, she had done this movie called Moonlight Mile.

22:22And I remember saying to people, like, I'm looking for somebody who feels like that girl in Moonlight Mile. I want somebody who feels like that girl. And I kept saying it. And finally, someone was like, I think you might be able to have that girl from Moonlight Mile. You're like, what a concept. And I was like, oh. So then Ellen and I had lunch at Barney's, I think it was. And we hit it off. It was kind of perfect. I was like, I get her. She gets me. And you just knew. Yeah. And it was easy. Talk to me about Sandra Oh. Sandra was really interesting because Sandra came in to read for the part of Dr.

22:53Bailey. Yeah. Wait, I didn't know that. Yeah, she came in to read for the part of Dr. Bailey. Whoa. And, you know, she had, you know, established actor. She had done, but hadn't, we hadn't seen, oh, the movie about the wine. I know you're talking about, but yeah, yeah. She had done a bunch of movies and stuff. So Sandra came in and read the part of Dr. Bailey, like blew it out of the water, like did like that, like first monologue that Dr. Bailey does. And we were all like, oh my God. And everybody was like, okay, she's Dr. Bailey. And I was like, no, she's Christina. And I just knew it. Like, I don't know how I knew it, but I knew it.

23:27And you obviously love that character so much as we all do. I think something about Christina Yang that changed, I think, a lot of our, I mean, it changed my life in terms of watching a woman be so intense about her craft. Yeah. And also be really rigid but loving. But she's so complicated and she's so fierce, but she's so soft. Like the moments she cries. And I wonder, like, was she one of the hardest ones to write for or the easiest for you? No, I related to that character so much. And here's what's crazy about Grey's. That for those first couple of seasons, it did not feel hard at all. Nothing about it felt hard.

24:10I love, like I was, I'd made up a world and I was getting to play in it every week. And so I would be like acting on all the parts in my office, like being really loud and crying when the characters cried and all that stuff. But I was having the time of my life. Like it was, it wasn't hard to write them. They were there. They were. Okay. What storyline was the hardest emotionally for you to write? Denny Duquette, Killing Denny. And only because there were other ones that were just as hard later, like when George dies. Of course. But because that was the first real emotional one, like I remember like he died on set, like we'd filmed the scene and I went back to the writer's room and sobbed like a baby for like an hour.

24:51It was too, like I'd made that show like so much of my life. It was like too real for me. I think I lost a part of my life when that happened, the LVAD and we're all crying. And I was like, it was one of the most beautiful moments in television and the saddest moments. and I just and then that was the season finale right? I think that was the season yeah it was the season finale because then Meredith is standing there and Derek and Finn or was it Finn? Derek and Finn yeah. Oh my God and she had just slept with him and the whole thing oh my God and they're all in the gowns. Shonda you you took us for a ride there.

25:23Yeah I love that. What storyline pissed the audience off the most do you think? Oh that's interesting. What storyline on Grey's? Mm-hmm. Wow. Maybe Dead Denny coming back to life. We got to talk. Yeah, I think that upset a lot of people. What were you thinking? I think I was grieving. Okay. I was just grieving, Denny. I'll be honest. I just wanted to see him on our screen one more time. I just loved him so much and I loved working with him. I think I was just grieving. Well, to be fair, the scenes, obviously, when she goes back because Meredith is dying and then she goes back and she's seeing her mother in that moment and then Denny shows up in the bomb squad guy and you're like, what's happening?

26:00Yeah. Okay. I did love that episode, though, because the whole thing. Okay. Which character's death hit you the hardest? Oh, wow. Probably George's. I mean, George was really – that character is so beloved. Tiara is such a lovely guy. That was such a hard thing to do. He was so – Tiara was so amazing because there was no – he, like, he didn't need to land that table. But he was like, I'm going to do the role even though you're never going to see my face the whole nine years. He was wonderful. The 007 in the palm. 007 in the palm. You really wanted us to actually like have like snot coming out of our noses.

26:34I mean, it broke me. So I knew that the audience would respond to it. But I really loved it. And yeah. I also think one that kind of always left me a little unsettled was McSteamy and Lexi. I just felt like they had, I don't know. I was like, oh my God, after that plane crash, you're like, I actually feel like they would have worked weirdly. Like towards the end, I was rooting for them. And they were actually getting really cute. And then they're gone. Thanks, Shonda. I have to say, like, I recently, because, like, I haven't watched the show. You have to think about the fact that I haven't really watched the show.

27:10So I recently went back and I started, like, watching select pieces of episodes. I watched that episode and I was horrified. I was like, oh, my God, this is like a freaking snuff film. Like, what the heck? I know. Thanks. But in it, but during the time when I'm doing it, like, I'm inside the story. And I always think my job is to be keeper of the story. Not keeper of the actors, not keeper of the show, not keeper of the fans. Like my whole job is to just be true to the story. That was the story. But I watch it back now and I was like, I can't believe that like that actually happened and that people survived watching that.

27:43That was horrifying. We didn't. We're still there. We're still at the plane. Okay. You have said that you cannot be what you cannot see. Yes. How have you embodied this through your shows? Oh, that's a really wonderful question. I mean, I feel like we really show a vast array of different kinds of women, different kinds of people, different kinds of viewpoints. And it's not like a very purposeful thing where I'm like, we're going to check this box or check this box. I like to explore all these things. And I do think that as somebody who grew up maybe not ever really seeing herself, it's just never occurred to me that like we're going to make a show that doesn't include me, that doesn't include, you know, a perspective that maybe might be considered an outside perspective.

28:29Can you talk a little bit more about that of like not seeing yourself when you were younger? I mean, when you grow up and you're watching television, I mean, the default and not just the default for women of color, but the default for women was like characters played either. They were either like sort of the vampy slutty character or they were like the mom, the very or they were like the sidekick, like the smart, quirky, like secretary yeah there was such a lack of complexity to women film and tv that I mean I think you now hear all these young girls talk about like Disney and what it taught us as like you find the guy and then life is good and it's like now we've said that a lot of times but when you really get underneath the ethos of that it's like there is such a core established feeling from a young age where you're watching these magical things, but that one storyline, you're kind of telling yourself that needs to be for you.

29:23Right. So the characters you've brought to life, like that's why I love Christina Yang so much because I also relate to her where I'm like, I'm such a workaholic. I love my job. I'm intense. I'm all the things. Interesting. Can we talk about Olivia Pope? Of course. I mean, one of the most iconic characters of all time. Talk to me about your inspiration behind her. First of all, there's a woman named Judy Smith who literally was a DC fixer. She worked with Monica Lewinsky. She worked with lots of different people. She worked in the first Bush White House. And she is this DC fixer. And Betsy Beers, who's my producing partner, brought her to meet me.

30:01And I remember thinking, like, I already have two shows. I'm super busy. I don't have time for this. And Judy Smith and I sat down to talk about what she did for a living. That's basically it. And four hours later, I was like, oh, my God, I can write hundreds of episodes of this show. Wow. So it is truly based on a real woman. It's based on a real woman's job. Like, Olivia Pope is not Judy Smith, obviously. Of course. No affair with the president, all that. Of course. But it was based on a real woman's job. And that job was so appealing to me. You know, like, after, like, we had a lot of drama on Greys and a lot, you know, behind the scenes drama on Greys.

30:34Like, the idea of somebody who knew how to fix things like that, who knew how to manage crises and solve problems like that. We were fascinated by her. Oh, and it's so intense and sexy and fun, but gut-wrenching and her confidence. The way that woman walks into a scene. I mean, also, it's crazy. Did you know that a lot of the shows that you are known for, these leading women have these iconic walks? How crazy is that? I know. Is that funny? Is that Obviously Meredith Grey walking in. And then we have, yeah. Olivia. Olivia. These walks. Yeah, it's funny. Like, I don't know what that's about, but yeah.

31:11It's kind of iconic. Was there ever a time where the network did push back on one of the stories that you were writing for these women? Oh, wow. They pushed back on Olivia Pope having an abortion. Big time. And they didn't push back when Christina? So here's what's interesting. I think when the first time Christina Yang becomes pregnant on the show, which I think is at the end of season one, near that place, that was supposed to be Christina Yang getting an abortion. And the network didn't tell me I couldn't do it. But they did come to me with like all of their concerns. And I got scared. And so she had an ectopic pregnancy instead.

31:53Isn't that interesting? And then when I was like when we were doing it with Olivia Pope, I knew what I was doing. And I was like, this feels so right for this character. It's not even a question for me. That's, I mean, again, you're writing things that women are living and breathing every day and the complexity of these choices that women have to make for themselves and their bodies. And then it is so crazy that then you're in the position where you're like answering to networks where it's like, I mean, how do you think writing about Olivia Pope's abortion, What did that effect have on people?

32:30I mean, I think one of the things that we did was I wanted it to be that somebody you knew, admired, loved. Because when you spend an hour a week with my characters, a lot of times you're spending more time with those people than you are with people in your own lives in a more intimate way. I wanted people that somebody knew and loved to be going through this and for it not to be like the abortion episode. Do you know what I mean? Such a good point. Right. That was the Christmas episode, actually. Wait, I forgot. It's the Christmas episode. The juxtaposition. Yeah, it's a very interesting episode.

33:00But the network and probably, well, I can't get in trouble now. But the network had like a problem with it. They were like, you can't, they wanted to edit it down and they wanted to be like, you can't show it. But I had learned something earlier, which I learned with the sex scenes was, you know, they would say to me, like, we're worried about this Fitz and Olivia sex scene. And I'd be like, but I shot it shot for shot, like the Meredith and Derek sex scene from Grey's. So it's not the scene, it's the people having the sex. And then we did it again with How to Go With Murder. It'd be like two men and they'd have a problem.

33:28I'm like, but we shot it shot for shot. So it's not the scene. It's the people. So when we did the abortion, if you notice, earlier in like two seasons earlier, three seasons earlier, Olivia stands with a soldier while she has her abortion. She holds her hand while she has an abortion. It's the same scene. And the network was like, you can't show this, blah, blah. And I was like, but we already did. Like, here it is right here. That's so interesting that it's all character based. It really is. And when you think about it, it is. It's emotional. Like they're not like what they're wanting to say is that technically it's this or this or this, but it's not really that.

34:06It's how they feel the audience is going to react to that particular person or that particular couple. It's like, no, we've already had one of these on the show. They're like, wait, where? But with all the same sounds, with all the same equipment, like they wanted us to remove like some of the sound from the abortion machine. Like all of these things. And meanwhile, it was like one of the most real, honest scenes that you could have given to women. And what I thought was important was that people kept being like, it's going to be like a big deal when Fitz finds out. I was like, that is not the story.

34:35That is not like this is not about him. Period. Yeah. You said for the first 10 years of Grey's, you were worried it was all going to go away one day. Oh, yeah. Talk to me about how you overcame that fear. Oh, my God. I don't know. I feel like, and I talk about this in the new chapter of the book. I don't think I ever felt, and I know this, I did not feel like my career was settled or like that I could relax until the day that I was sitting in this theater being inducted into the Television Academy Hall of Fame by Oprah Winfrey, which sounds crazy. That was like 2016 or something. I and in that moment I remember like holding my daughter's hand and looking at her and going like we made it like and really for the first time feeling like that like up until then I was like they could take this away at any time I could be fired at any time the audience could turn their back at any time like I could be a husband at any minute damn yeah isn't that crazy though when you look back at that like what do you wish you could have told yourself because obviously although they could have, the success was, the writing was on the wall.

35:42It was undeniable. Right. You know what, for now, now I look back and I almost don't want to tell myself anything. I do wish I had enjoyed all the moments more, like reveled in them. But if I had, like, would there have been a private practice? Would there have been a scandal? Would I have been like, I want to own an entire night of television? I was so busy, like, being like, I got to get a second job just in case the first job goes away, that it never occurred to me. That's a good point. I agree. I, there's almost sometimes you look back and you're like, what would I would have, what should I have told myself?

36:11But the grit and the tenacity and you pushing yourself to the extreme, maybe there was a beautiful element of that instability that you felt that actually kind of didn't exist, but you felt it. But it pushed me like would Greys have gone past three or four seasons? Because every year I was like, we have to reinvent this show from the ground up. It's got to be original. The stories have to be the best stories we've ever told. Every season I was pushing that way. Not because I just loved it, because I was like, if this ends, like, I'm qualified for nothing other than making stuff up. Shauna. Yeah.

36:43For making stuff up. Stop it. Stop it. You just referenced 2014, you became responsible for an entire lineup of primetime TV. Okay. Talk to me about the pressure you were under when you got that slot. Like, what do you remember feeling at that time? Oh, wow. I remember most of them talking about the lineup, but what I remember most is sitting in a hotel room before the television upfronts. They were still negotiating my contract that I was supposed to go on stage the next day. And there were guys standing outside the room with papers. I remember feeling like this feels crazy. And so it was all about this contract deal that I wasn't bending on and my team was really great on, but I wasn't really feeling like what was happening.

37:33And then we have this moment where like I walk out on stage with Viola Davis and it's like in slow motion in my head. And inside that moment, because that's what happens to me, it's never like I realized it's happening beforehand. Inside that moment as it's happening, I was like, holy crap. Like we have all of Thursday night. Like it happened in that moment. That's also crazy too, because it's the things that obviously the consumers and the viewers don't get to see is you're like, I'm so happy you're all excited for Thursday. My contract's not even done. Like what? It was like, I'm not walking out on stage until it's done.

38:07So that was what was going on. It was great. I mean, I learned a lot about being a businesswoman, like doing this job in a way that I don't think I ever expected. Oh, I can't even imagine. I mean, going from being a writer, starting on movies, going to TV, creating your own production company, owning this the biggest night in television it's like it forces you and I think as a woman I've had experiences where I'm finding that most people don't kind of want you to learn the ropes as much because then it's easier to navigate around you like you are this creative talent but also if you continue to learn more about the industry you're kind of a threat because then you can push your weight around exactly and people don't like that well I think the thing that's most important is what they don't want you to realize is how much power you have.

38:55I always say power is not power if you don't know you have it. And I've known lots of women who I'm like, you have so much power, but you believe that you're powerless. So like everybody else is controlling you. The minute you realize that like, I was like, oh, they can't actually make these shows without me. I mean, even with Grey's, I was naive enough to be like, I'm the only person who knows what happens. So they can't fire me. So I acted like someone who couldn't be fired. but I think those things are important like to understand that it is so important and it's like educating yourself in the moments of and I'm sure you've had this where you are so good at something but you can become better at that thing when you start to really listen to people around you and observing and you're seeing like again starting a production company you're like that wasn't your full background but I'm assuming and I probably know but like it has helped you so much then continue to have autonomy and control in huge moments that when you're doing these negotiations, you're like, and my production company is going to be the one that is working on the show and I'm going to write it.

39:56And so you have more control. Right. You learn and grow. And by the way, like I always think people are like, oh, you know, you're this leader. I was terrible at being a leader when I started. But you have to look at it like, I mean, I was shy and confused and didn't understand. But you have to look at it like from the point of view of this is a skill I need to learn in order to keep doing what I'm doing and to get better at it. So instead of just approaching it like, well, this is how I lead, I was like, so now I've got to figure out how to be really great at this. That's really good advice. I'm taking that because I feel like when I started, I was just a creative.

40:31And then I started a production company and my company. And I would always share with people, like, I know that I'm so creative and I want to just put my head into the creative that I'm, oh, I have to tell people what they're doing every day and leading. and it wasn't natural to me. It's not natural, right? Right? It was very like, wait, can someone else do this? And I'm like, no, because I know where I want to head the direction, but it kind of felt foreign for a while. But then you just get the reps and you acknowledge, I know I'm not the best at this. Once again, you say what you don't know how to do.

41:02And then you make an effort to like learn as much as you can and to surround yourself with people who really know what they're doing. And I think people respect that though, probably Shonda, you being like in those beginning days, recognizing your strengths and your weaknesses. I think the worst thing is when a leader is just like blindly saying like I'm leading the path and you're like everyone's like we actually have a better idea. Can you listen to us? And people don't respect you. I think that's very clear. People can see that A, that you're, you know, the emperor has no clothes and they don't respect you.

41:28Like be honest and say like I don't know enough about this. It's not going to take your power away. Not if you're good at what you do. And again, I think as a woman, sometimes we can think that it's better to fake it because it's like, oh my God, I'm just happy to even be here. But again, grounding yourself in, no, no, no, you're there for a reason. Everyone knows your strengths. It's okay if you show some of your weaknesses because then people are going to want to rise to the occasion for you in that way. And I want the caution though to be, because usually they say like men will say they can do any job and take it and women will be like, I'm not qualified.

42:00It's not that. It's not that you're not qualified. I think you need to be very comfortable with like who you are and your power, but also be enough of a leader to say, like, I can lead this, I can handle this, but I need someone to explain to me what this piece is versus like I'm not qualified to maybe somebody else should take over. That's not the point. No, I'm going to do it. Just help me get there. Yeah. When you are at the top of your industry, people obviously expect perfection. How does that and how did that impact your creative process? That's interesting. I think in the beginning, I was really lucky.

42:37It was hit after hit after hit. And so that was great. When we started moving into producing shows that other people wrote, it wasn't as simple as that. You know what I mean? Our shows didn't necessarily all take off the way How to Go to Murder, which was created by Pete Nowak and we produced took off. It wasn't like that. I was still really comfortable with, and I have like this basketball player's arrogance. I was always really comfortable with the shows that I created being fine and taking off and being good. But you want the other shows that you're doing to do as well. And you want to be able to give other people that opportunity.

43:08So to me, it's really just, it was about like figuring out how to sustain that and get better at it and be supportive about it. So every time something didn't work, we really tried, my producing partner Betsy and I, we really tried to learn like why and what was going on with that and how to make it better. I want to know a little bit more about your creative writing process. Where do you typically start? In terms of story? Yeah. Oh, that's right. Or does story come first or does character come first? Sometimes it's a line of dialogue. Like sometimes I'll have like a line of dialogue in my head.

43:39Like give me an example. Oh, God. It's like it's handled. Like it's handled was in my head before I knew what the show really was. You know, like it's those kinds of things. We're scandaled. So sometimes it's that. Sometimes – and, you know, yes, I'll have met somebody. I'll have an idea in an area. But you can say, like, I want to write a medical show, and that's 15 ,000 different kinds of shows. For sure. So it's what makes this the specific show that you're writing. So sometimes it's a line of dialogue. Sometimes it's a character. For me, there was something about the intern life of, like, Meredith Gray and those guys being brand new at what they were doing and also being women in a field that was dominated by men that felt really interesting to me.

44:18And I remember like what sealed the show for me was I met a medical resident who told me that it's really hard to shave your legs in the bathrooms that they have, the showers that they have at the hospital. And for some reason, that like made a whole picture in my head of like what a woman's life was like trying to be a surgeon and trying to have a personal life at the same time. Oh, it's so true. And you – oh my god. The scenes that you were able to capture of the women getting ready for a date and they're like, Christina's throwing her hair up and she's putting on her bra and she's like, I'm going out.

44:48And then it's like, get back in the office. And you're like, oh, shit. Like, it was so messy, but clearly so accurate. Yeah. That's really interesting. And right now, currently in your life, where do you pull creative inspiration from? Oh, my gosh. You know, it's interesting. Like, I was saying to somebody the other night, like, literally, I think just last night, like, I'm in, like, a build phase, which happens. I'm either in a phase where, like, I'm in the middle of a story and I'm writing it, and then I almost can't talk to anybody. Or I've just finished and we're about to shoot something, and I'm, like, in that super excited phase.

45:17I'm in the build phase where I'm like gathering ideas. Like I have ideas for maybe I think three different shows in my head right now. And that's generally how it always is that I'm very excited about. And I'm juggling trying to figure out which one's going to like emerge to the surface as the forefront one, the one to do first. And are you writing all these things down? Are they just concepts in your head right now? So my creative process is different than a lot of people's, which is I never like – I almost never put pen to paper. until I'm ready to write the draft. What if you forget? No, it's a lot of thinking.

45:52It's a lot of thinking. And then like I'll spend a year thinking about something and then like two days writing a script versus some people I know who like the script is the thing that they're working on all the way through. For me, it's the world and the idea and the getting like all the pieces in place mentally first. So you, I was about to say, because writer's block, you don't have writer's block. I don't believe in writer's block. Because you don't really write until you're, You don't believe in writer's block. Talk to me about that. I feel like people talk about writer's block and it's one of those things that the minute you talk about it, it becomes real, right?

46:26Like I have writer's block and now it's like a thing. I'm like, no, there are days when you have stuff to say and there are days when you don't. You know what I mean? And maybe there are days when you're working out problems and you're not. But I don't believe in like writer's block. Like you just can't write at all. Right. It's like you're clearly stuck on something that you're trying to figure out. but you girl you're a year in you've got this like math equation in your head and then two days you're writing the whole thing yeah and then like when i am stuck i was always lucky because i would be working on graze and if i got stuck on graze i would turn around and i'd go work on scandal so like the engine the machine the muscle was always being exercised at all times

47:19In 2018, you were TV's highest paid showrunner. What did that milestone mean to you? You know, it was a crazy moment because I remember, like, I was supposed to be giving this speech for Elle Women in Hollywood. And I remember my lawyer, like, telling me that fact and me thinking, like, I should talk about that in my speech. Because Ellen had sort of said she was the highest paid woman in television drama and And people kind of gave a little bit of backlash about that. And I remember thinking, like, I should talk about this in my speech. And being really nervous, like, calling my lawyer, like, 10 to 15 times.

47:54We're like, is this true? Like, is this really true? Like, are you sure it's true? And him being like, what is wrong with you? And me being like, I just, I don't know that I believe it. And it was really hard for me to say it when I gave the speech. But I remember feeling like that was a time when I worked really hard to settle myself in this idea that, OK, now I have real power. So if I have this real power, what am I going to do with it? That's so relatable because I was going to say crazy. I'm like, no, it's not. It's like you sitting there being like, are you sure? No, come on. It's like, Shonda, I don't know how many times to break it to you.

48:34And yet you couldn't – was it because you couldn't believe it? Was it imposter syndrome? Was it you don't want to look like a fool on stage owning something? What do you think it was? I don't feel like it was imposter. It's that – you know what happens when all your dreams come true? Absolutely nothing. Like everything stays the same, right? So you're still you. Like I'm still the person clipping coupons and like thinking like maybe I should get that on sale. And maybe I shouldn't like get too comfortable like with these shows. I'm still that same person, but now suddenly I'm surrounded by these different trappings.

49:08It's about getting used to the trappings of power and what that means and being able to utilize them. I really do think that's what it is. It's a good point. You just said it the best I've ever heard anyone say it because all the time people are like, oh, my God, have you had your I made it moment? And I'm like, sure, but not really. It's more just like the living of it. I know I feel like I've made what my dream was, but I'm not complacent now and just like – Right. Because nothing changed. I'm still Alex from Pennsylvania that like loves to create and I'm a nerd with that and whatever it be.

49:45Still looking at new ideas and getting excited about things. Like it's not – the trappings change. You don't change. I feel like sometimes success makes you more of who you were and that might be about it. You know, people who are anxious get more anxious. People who are not so nice get less nice. but maybe it makes you more of who you are it's a good point because when you're grinding so hard for your dream you're gonna tackle your way to get there and you're gonna run through the door and you're gonna do whatever and then once you've really got it you're like okay I did it here I am you're present you're sitting you're like I now I do feel probably the most connected to that little girl yeah yes exactly it's interesting um okay this is something we've kind of been talking about, which I love, you once said, and this quote is so good, men brag and women hide.

50:34Yes. Why do you think women have such a hard time celebrating their accomplishments? It's really interesting to be in a room full of women or to sit and talk to other women and even giving compliments. Women can't take compliments. I've worked really hard at that, but women cannot take compliments. Someone will say to you, you're the most powerful podcaster out there right now. And look at the look on your face. Like, you don't want to go like, thank you. Right? You think to yourself like, oh, well, you know, right? And you try to make it okay for other people because you're afraid that if like who you are, if you like yourself too much, people are going to think ill of you, which is such so interesting.

51:17It's like almost like the fear is like, will people think I'm arrogant? Right. It's who does she think she is? And it's like, well, who do you think you are? You should think you're the most powerful woman in podcasting right now. That's not an insult. That's not a problem. That's not something to be ashamed of. You're like, yeah, I accomplished that. Like, that's okay. Women have a really hard time with it. Men do not. Men who have accomplished almost nothing are still bragging about stuff that isn't even an accomplishment. It's true. It happens all the time. It's so true. It's like, and I think it's hard because I don't know if you've experienced this, but I feel like a lot of times, which makes me sad, is like when one woman is having such success and if she leans in at all, at least now with the day and age of social media, like there is a lot of tearing down from other women of like that's not true, blah, blah, blah.

52:09And I don't know if it's because there is an insecurity and there's projection going on, whatever it be, but it's like it sucks. I have this theory that inherently and this is I'm just kidding. I feel like women have been raised to really hate themselves. We've been raised to sort of be like, you need to be nicer. You need to be quieter. You need to be sweeter. You need to adjust yourself so that other people will want to accept you. So women have been raised to hate themselves. And it's really hard to watch another woman be completely comfortable in that skin. You're like, well, wait a minute.

52:39That doesn't feel right. And I don't think it's malicious. And I don't think that anybody said to themselves, we're going to put our foot on the neck of girls. But I do think women have been raised in a world in which society has all of these rules that make you feel like, how dare you? You know? It's so true. It's so true. It's like, it's uncomfortable for other women to see another woman confident because what it really is is, fuck, I want to get there. Well, you're uncomfortable and it's uncomfortable to be that confident woman. Like it really is. Like you have to really reach a place where you're like, I really don't care what other people think.

53:16What is a time in your career where you downplayed your own success to try to make people feel comfortable? Oh, wow. I will say that I am really lucky. Like, I was raised in a family where, like, there are four girls. We kind of got in trouble if we were ever like, oh, no, not me, poor me. My mother would be like, what's wrong with you? My dad would be like, what are you thinking? So we were raised really in a way that I find a lot of women weren't. However, I still found myself being in a room thinking like, well, I want everybody to like me. Like I don't want anybody to think that like I think that I think so well of myself.

53:51Like it's interesting. Like you – it's hard to take a compliment. Yeah. I can imagine for you it's like you are having such success. You're so talented. You're now running these rooms. People – like you said, there's hundreds of people in a room waiting for your commands of like, all right, we're about to make the show. We're doing this thing. and then again a man probably wouldn't feel this way with you you're like okay wait but i don't want to come off like i'm too bossy or this like i do want people to look at me and like me and there's just a double standard for women so we have to kind of placate the the power dynamics and the boundaries and all the things to make people be like no but she's really nice like that you know if you walked in you're like this is what we're doing today everyone needs to be on the top of their game and let's get this thing done what a bitch what a bitch well okay so i I watched your documentary and you literally say in there, like, I don't want anybody to think I'm being a bitch.

54:42And I'm like, let's all just be the bitch. Like, be the bitch. Because the reality of it is, is everybody's going to have their opinion of you anyway. And if you are not being cruel to other people and if you are like, I'm always like, how do I make this a warm, welcoming place for other women to feel like they can come up and be somebody? Then in order for that to happen, I have to make a way in this world in order for those opportunities to exist. So be the bitch. be the bitch because if there's 10 people in the room what i've found recently as i'm leaning into not being an actual bitch but being more of that like i'm just gonna say it how it is because why can my husband say the same thing and everyone's like i'm excited to work for him and if i say it people are like oh my god is she in a bad mood today me mom like i just said to do your job right right what i found though is a lot of people in the room will actually start to respect you more and there's gonna be a couple of the stragglers that are like she's being a bitch because it's projection and they're taking something wrong, whatever it is.

55:38But people like someone that is direct and honest and gives you the role that you need to do your job with. More people respond to that because it's not this amorphous thing where they're trying to figure out what you meant. And here's my thing. Never be cruel. Never be mean. Never be rude. Never belittle. But be direct and be strong about what you're saying and mean it. There's no reason to apologize for being good at your job. For me, that's like a big deal. Shonda, this is like the pep talk we needed today. The girls are literally taking notes watching this throughout work right now being like, I'm going to go get that raise for my boss or I'm going to go advocate for myself.

56:16And that I think is like so healthy to remind women like you can speak up for yourself and that does not make you a bad person. What a concept. Okay, let's talk about your book. Okay. The Year of Yes, 10th anniversary. First of all, congratulations. Thank you. That's really incredible. Can you tell anyone who's not familiar, like, how did this initially come to be? Okay. So I, in 2014, I decided that I was going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scared me. Why? And if, well, if you knew me before 2014, I was wildly shy, like, to the point of, like, full anxiety attack, like, couldn't speak in public.

56:52I was very closed off and shut down. I went almost nowhere. I did almost nothing. I had this incredible success of these television shows. My characters were living these like amazing, full, like rich, exciting lives. And I was not. I was at home like living in my imagination. And so one day one of my sisters said to me, you never say yes to anything. Like I'd been given all these invitations and I would say no. So I was like, okay, I'm going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scares me. And I did. And I ended up writing a memoir about it called Year of Yes. And so now 10 years later, I sort of went back and looked and said, like, how has my life changed?

57:32Because it's completely different than it was 10 years ago. Like, I'm such a different person. I think I almost might be unrecognizable in every way. And so I really wanted to look at it 10 years later to see, like, who am I now? What have my yeses been lately? What has, like, fallen off? What's better? What's worse? You know, how does this keep going? it's really inspiring because i think that's a very relatable thing like you're you're the one holding yourself back from experiencing these beautiful big moments that you could enjoy and yet you're almost you're hurting yourself by being your worst enemy how though once you got through this year of yes obviously that's so fun but for someone listening like what kept you going with the yes though because i'm assuming a lot of moments were uncomfortable yeah talk to me about like a yes you said that you were uncomfortable to and then you left and you were like, oh, actually it wasn't as bad.

58:25I mean, it was almost everything. Like I, the first thing I did was give a commencement speech. That was my first yes. I was going to give a commencement speech for 10 to 10 ,000 people. So there are yeses like that that are just like moments. But then there was like the yes that I said to my body. Like I was like, I want to say like 150 pounds heavier when I wrote this book. And it was because I had been like, my body's just a container for my brain. I'm not thinking of myself in this physical way at all. I had sort of shut myself off from the world. And I was like, okay, now I need to say yes to like taking care of myself.

58:54I feel terrible all the time. So it was like about that. It was saying yes to difficult conversations. Like I was a person who like would run from any difficult conversation as far as I possibly could. And now I'm a person who's like, let's just plow right in. Because like the road to peace is like through there. And it's so real to be like once you start practicing something, it's going to first feel so uncomfortable and you're like, I don't want to do this. And then slowly, the second time you do it again, it gets a little easier. And then again, and again. And so I think that's great advice for young women listening is like, the hardest part is just jumping into it.

59:31The very act of doing the thing that you're afraid of undoes the fear. And that is such a freeing feeling to realize. Like the worst thing that can happen is, is that it doesn't go well, but then it's already happened and that's the worst thing. And you'll handle it. Yeah, and you'll handle it. In your book, you say unhappy people do not like it when a fellow unhappy person becomes happy. Yes. How did your relationship start to change once you did this year of yes? That was really profound because you don't expect to shed people. You know what I mean? I was not a person who ever thought like I'm very loyal, like the people in my life are the people in my life.

1:00:11I did not expect to shed people. But when you begin to fundamentally change who you are, your idea of yourself, like how you want to live, anything, even when you begin to have the whisper of the idea that like I might be valuable. You know what I mean? Like even that little thought, people who are not used to that feeling, people who are comfortable with you in the role that you were in have a really hard time with it. And a lot of times, you know, there's an adjustment in general, even for the people who are happy for you, but the people who like they're very invested in the world that they're in, right?

1:00:44We're all invested in like the world sucks. You know, this is like this. I'll never get this. I'm bitter about this. Let's talk trash about these people. When you stop being able to do that with them, it's really threatening and really upsetting. And I understand it because I'd watched it happen to other people I know. And I'd been like, fuck them. How dare they? But when you start to change, you realize how many people are not interested in you having a different definition of yourself. Yeah, I feel like that's very relatable. And I feel like it can also then become for a period of time a little alienating, right?

1:01:17Yes, it's very lonely. Because you've created your ecosystem. You have your habits, like you said, whether you're like gossiping or talking shit or you're not feeling good about yourself. Someone close to me recently just went through this where she started to have a more positive outlook and a friend was basically couldn't be there for her when she just had a successful moment. And you're like, but we've both been down and I finally got something. Aren't you excited? And it's like, no, I want you to stay down with me. I have friends who were amazing when things were terrible. Terrible. Like they were right there.

1:01:48And I was like, these people will be with me the rest of my life. When things were not terrible, those people were pissed. And it was startling to discover that. And also really, really painful, you know, because you're losing people that you love. And I was not intending to lose a single person from my life. So the idea that people would fall away of their own accord because they weren't interested or because you finally had to say like, this isn't working, it's really hard to break up with a friend. It's excruciating. But also, I'm sure once you got a little bit farther away from it, then in hindsight, you start to realize the ecosystem in which you were living and you're like, oh, that's how toxic it was.

1:02:26And I was so immersed in it that I was incapable of fully recognizing like how negative it was. You never can recognize. You're like down in the muck and like that's all you know and that feels really comfortable. And like to peek your head up out of that is dangerous almost. And I think just for people listening, if you're in that situation where you're like, my friends can never be happy for me and I do wanna kind of change, whether it's jobs or relationships or whatever it be, in the moment as isolating as it can feel, I feel like what we're talking about here is like the short-term discomfort, long-term, you are going to be happier with yourself that although you lost friends, there are new people in your life that you can meet that can meet you where you're at, which is in a positive capacity and not so negative.

1:03:09And give your original friends who are having a hard time, give them some grace for a while because you are becoming a whole different person that they don't know. So for some friends, I like, you know, there was a space and time when they were like, what the hell's happening? But then our friendships became even stronger. But there were some people who just like, it wasn't, they weren't ready. They weren't ready for me to be different and they weren't ready to look at the world in a different way. Something I also loved about your book was how you wrote that sometimes saying yes to opportunities means saying yes to failures.

1:03:40Yes. What is the biggest lesson that you've learned from your failures throughout your career. I mean, I always try to look at failures not as like total failures, but like lessons learned in a great way. But I also feel like there's nothing wrong with like letting a failure happen if it's a failure. Like the shame that people seem to want to feel like they don't want to, you know, I don't want anybody to know that this happened or I don't want to ever tell that story. Like the failures that you have are the failures that you had and they basically are part of what made me where I am right now.

1:04:12So I try to embrace them and know that like I really can like live through them. Like they happened.

1:04:36one thing that you have been clear you're not interested in saying yes to is the idea of marriage when did you first realize this and i don't know if that's true anymore isn't that interesting. I don't know if that's true anymore. Talk to me. So I'd never been a person who thought about getting married. Like I was a person who like I always knew I was going to be a mom. Like I've always known that. Like that was always part of my plan. Marriage never really entered into it. And my parents have like this amazing, romantic, beautiful marriage. They've been married forever. And so like I have this great example of what a great marriage is.

1:05:08But I was always like, I really value being independent. I really value like being on my own. I tried the whole getting engaged thing and like almost killed myself, like trying to pretend that I was somebody who wanted to get married. And it just wasn't me. Like I was like, this is not, I feel suffocated. I think that is an extremely relatable feeling that maybe people don't talk about. I remember I had shared that where I grew up. I had a similar situation with the image of my parents and what they represented. I was like, I've never seen two people so good and as a partnership and in love. So what's wrong with me that I don't crave that at all.

1:05:48And I had zero interest in getting married. I was like, I am an independent. I'm all these things, which I think is beautiful to know within yourself and not put pressure on. But then what changed? So now you're kind of like, well, so now I feel like, you know, I have these girls who are much older. My youngest daughter is 12 at this point. So what really got me the first time was, so you get engaged and everybody is so happy for you. People were more happy for me that I had a man who wanted to marry me than they were about my career, my shows, my children combined. Combined. I was like, I have a freaking Peabody Award.

1:06:28Nobody cared. They're like, you have a man who wants to marry you. You're like, you guys, no. It felt really threatening. I think about this now. It felt really threatening to my whole identity that like that's where people were going to see my value. And now like I think that's because I wasn't necessarily comfortable in my own skin probably. I very much know who I am now. Like I know who I am. I'm very comfortable in my skin. I'm very comfortable with like what I've accomplished, what I haven't accomplished, like who I am as a woman. Like now I'm completely comfortable with the idea that like I could meet somebody and spend the rest of my life with somebody and marry them.

1:07:04Because I'm not worried that like who I am is going to be taken away from me or that I'm going to have to let like compromise pieces of my career or what I've accomplished or what I want it to be. That's also beautiful because what a concept that women can change their minds. Yes. And we should be let them. And it's okay if one moment you say you don't want something and now you could potentially want it. Yeah. And I'm not saying like, oh, I want to get married. But I'm not, I'm no longer saying like, I never want to get married. Like I'm open. Have you struggled in previous relationships with men being intimidated by your success?

1:07:38Yes. That's like – That's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. That's the name of the game. That's the whole game. It is. And then it's really hard to stay – one, obviously like the surface level is just like being attracted to someone that's like intimidated by your success. But the deeper thing, again, is the independence being threatened. But also, what's the point of having a partner in your life that's not an actual partner, that's not rooting for you and wanting you to succeed? And you're downplaying yourself. You're coming home and you're not sharing certain things because you're like, oh, he'll feel insecure.

1:08:11But also, like, you're actively in a space where they're not in the headspace of feeling good about themselves. So you feel like you're actively diminishing somebody else. Like I'm not interested in actively making a man feel diminished by who I am and by who he is. And then by you then also being aware of that, you're also diminishing yourself. You're making yourself smaller. It's that Christina Yang thing of like letting go of pieces of yourself so that somebody else can feel good about who they are. It all comes back to Christina. It does, doesn't it? It really does. Um, I one of the quotes from your book was the wedding was right there.

1:08:47The amazing guy was right there. The happy was right there. And I didn't want it. Once you broke off this engagement, how did you feel? The terrible thing is, and I say this in the book, I felt so good. I felt so relieved. I felt like this huge weight had been lifted from me, which is awful because a another person gets hurt. But B, you know, it was a what it should have been a wonderful thing. But what tells you that it wasn't was how free I felt and how like I was like, I think I was really afraid of what this was going to be on top of everything else. Like I was approaching this with some level of like dread of what I was going to be letting go of and giving up to be in this relationship.

1:09:31And then you felt free once you ended it. I felt so good. Let's talk about your family. Yes. You have three daughters. Yes. What is a typical night at home like for you guys? Oh, wow. So I have a 23-year-old who lives in London. So she's living her best London life right now. I am so jealous. I know. Do you visit her often or no? I do because, you know, that's where Bridgerton is. So I get to go over. Love. Which is wonderful. But for me, like a typical night at home, it's like me and my daughters. We have dinner. We hang out. We go and let the dogs run around. Do they watch your shows? No. My 23-year-old, I don't think, has ever watched any of my shows.

1:10:04Not even Grey's because she was – No. She watched How to Get Away with Murder because I didn't make that. my second daughter who's 13 um i know i feel like everyone comes here and is like you have no idea how much your kids will humble you i don't have kids and i'm like just not impressed at all they don't give a crap they're not like impressed so my 13 year old she started watching um gray's anatomy and i was like oh my god this is happening and i had been like you can't watch it my mom was like yes she can so i was like your grandma said you can watch it she watched like eight or nine episodes and then Christina had an ectopic pregnancy and she was like furious.

1:10:40She was like, I didn't understand this was coming. I didn't see this was coming. I think this is too old for me. And she turned it off. No, her being able to walk down, knock on the door and be like, hey, mom, fuck is this? Why did you write this? And you're like, listen, sweetie. She's like, I'm done with you. She was like, no, no. And then my youngest daughter, you know, because the entry age for Grey's like it's like 11 or 12 years old. Like I know when young kids have started watching Grey's because I can see their faces look at me differently. Like they know who I am. So my youngest daughter, she and her little seventh grade friends have, and this is so insulting, but also so great, have made a pact that none of them are ever going to watch Grey's Anatomy because nobody wants to know what Beckett's mother has to say about life, love, or anything else.

1:11:22Shonda. Oh my God. I know. Oh. They literally have a pact. Like none of us are going to watch it. And I was like, fine. Like you little haters. But it's also fantastic. Like I feel like my children's self-esteem is like clearly intact when they are not impressed. They're good. That's so funny because I remember when I interviewed Ellen, her daughter came because she was a fan of the show. Yes. And Stella was like, I was like, so did you watch? You know? And she goes, yeah, but I'll be honest. I kind of stopped after McDreamy was gone. And I was like, okay, okay. And Ellen's literally like my life.

1:11:58Like kids will just be like, let me humble you right now, mom. Harper would always be like, so do you think that that's like a great show? Like, and I'd be like, my favorite thing about Harper was when she was younger, she would be like, you know, Julie Plec, who does the vampire. She was like, Julie Plec is amazing, mom. Like, Julie Plec is ever. And I was like, so basically, like, my whole life is if only my daughter thought about me the way she thinks about Julie Plec. You know what you need to do? You need to go under an alias for the first season of something and be like, did you hear about this new show?

1:12:29Your daughters sit down, they're like, this is the best show ever. And then you're like, that was me. That was me. That's amazing. What is something that your daughters have taught you? Oh, wow. Incredible amounts of patience. Incredible amounts of patience. I think that that is very true. But also, you meet people where they are, for real. They do not come out, and then you mold them. They really come out as the people they are. and your job is to make them more of that person, a better version of that person. And that is really hard as a mom and as a perfectionist and as a person who like is very type A.

1:13:06Like it's really about like, okay, so she's this kind of kid. How do I like embrace that and then help her be that kind of kid? That's beautiful. Yeah. It's probably really good for you, right? You're like, I needed this. It's so freaking hard. No one else could have done it to you. Yeah. Exactly. I think a lot of women will, I appreciate this conversation of like, You chose to start a family. You didn't have a partner, obviously. How did you decide? Three kids. Okay, this is interesting because I've talked to other women about this. 9-11 happened and I was like, this was really like a turning point for me.

1:13:39I was like, the world's going to end and I will never have done the one thing I wanted to do, which is to have a kid. So I became a mom at the same time that Grey's Anatomy came out. And that was like, as a working mother, that was like the hardest, most devastating, most amazing situation to be in the middle of. My daughter grew up thinking I worked in a hospital. She did because that's where she was all the time. And so then like 10 years on, I thought like, okay, so I've had one daughter and 37 actors, but she doesn't have any siblings. And so then I was, it was middle of scandal and I was like, I'm going to have two more kids.

1:14:13And that was a plan. Like I was like, if I'm going to have more kids, I'm not going to have kids who are like another only, you know, in that sense of like 10 year gap. I'm going to have two kids in close succession to one another so that they have each other. It's beautiful. It is, except they're so different from each other, it doesn't even matter. Like, they're so different from one another. The plan actually backfired because, like, it's very, very different. They're all in their own world. I know you've kind of said that your family is very traditional. Yeah. And they had a lot of questions about this to you.

1:14:42What conversations did you need to have with them about this decision? You know what's wonderful is, like, my parents are very get on board. But, like, they had a lot of questions about adoption. They had a lot of questions about, like, what that was going to mean. and how that was going to be. Although in my family, it sort of never mattered like how you came into the family, you're just part of the family. Surrogacy brought up a lot of questions for my family. Like that just felt, I mean, I don't think I've, to this day, I still haven't had the sperm donor conversation with my father. Do you know what I mean?

1:15:11Like those conversations. But like that stuff was a big deal. Like how is this going to happen? I think that was a big deal. But for me, what's amazing is the minute there's a baby, my whole family is like in love and embrace. Like our family is really great in that way. Like we're a very big, loud, boisterous family who like everybody is super embraced. I think it's beautiful too. Everyone has such a different journey to building whatever their version of a family is. Some people don't want kids. Some people want kids. Some people are doing it different ways. and again I think as women we can feel shame from other people if we're not doing it the way that traditionally we've been taught that we should do it and it's such a great statement that you just made of like and then once it happens it's like look how beautiful this is for a little while I think I felt like I had to justify it you know what I mean like I felt like I had to um sort of I don't even know I felt like I had to justify it for people and that's ridiculous like at a certain I was like, however I decide, you know, it's like nobody puts in the paper like so-and-so had a baby via C-section.

1:16:19Nobody says like this is their C-section child. So like how my children came into my family is like not the issue. Right. And none of your business. Yeah. It's a really good point. Again, but it goes back to this is a complete different comparison, but we were talking about earlier. It's like the same thing was happening on the set of Scandal or Graze. But when it's a different person doing the act, there's a different light and fixation on it. And so people can see it differently. Right, exactly. And it's like, guys, worry about your own damn selves. In a speech you said, whenever you see me somewhere succeeding in one area of my life, that almost certainly means that I am failing in another.

1:16:58How have you come to terms with knowing that you can only do so much at once? I think the relief was realizing that you can only do so much at once. I mean, I think that the struggle and the way we're told like lean in or you can have at all or all these things. It's such bullshit. But we're so conditioned to feel like I'm supposed to be fully present at work all the time. And then I'm supposed to be like the most amazing mom all the time. It does not work that way. Like I am a mother because that is who I am. You know, sometimes mother is not what I do. Sometimes it's just who I am. And my job is amazing.

1:17:33But there are times when I'm going to have to like, say like, okay, I'll let that slide because my kids needed me. And that is okay. I think when we tell ourselves it's not okay and we put all this pressure on ourselves to like, either you're perfect in one or you're perfect in the other, you're trying to be perfect in both, that's when you fail. Because that's a zero-sum game. It's never going to happen. You're never going to feel amazing at both. It's always going to be a little bit shaky. So let it be shaky. Yeah. It's helpful to hear that because I agree. I think everyone's like, you know, you can't do it all.

1:18:06But then you kind of are still like, no, I'm going to try. And it's like, sometimes you really do have to put your eggs in one basket and really double down and focus on that. And it doesn't almost mean that you're not, you're like abandoning the other things in your life. You're just recognizing right now, the priority is right here. And I'm still going to show up in this area, but I'm not going to be 100%. And that's okay. It's not that you can't do it all. It's that you can't do it all at once. So for me, I'm always like, okay, so maybe sometimes this is going to be like over here down a little bit more and this is going to be more up.

1:18:37But I'm still doing it all in a way that makes me feel less guilty and like embracing the idea that you are failing at something else. People used to be like, how can you say that? I'm like, it made me feel so much better to think like, okay, I'm failing at work right now. That's okay. To give myself that permission made it so much easier. Have you felt like you're failing at work ever in your life? Oh my God, all the time. Okay, that makes me feel better. That makes me feel better. you've revolutionized TV in so many ways and you have paved the way for other women in this field and in other fields what do you ultimately hope your legacy is?

1:19:11oh wow I always really try to avoid the concept of legacy I mean I hope that there is space for women to feel like there are still trails to be blazed but that the blazing of the trails doesn't mean that you're blazing them alone anymore anymore because I think being like a woman who's done something that necessarily hadn't been done by other people, it's a lonely road. You're like making that path happen a lot of the time. And so I feel like I want women to feel like there's all this to be accomplished, but that not necessarily like hopefully I've left a space where there's enough room that more women are doing it.

1:19:47Does that make sense? It absolutely makes sense. Outside of your career, what do you wish more people knew about you? Oh my God. Right now I'm just obsessed with golf. So it's really weird. What? I know, right? I have a whole chapter in the book about it. Wait, what? I've become like this weird obsessed golfer. I love this for you. I had never had a hobby. I mean, like literally like I had hobbies, then I had my shows, then I didn't have any hobbies for like 20 years. And so I moved to Connecticut and I took up a hobby. You're hitting the country clubs. You're swinging, you're golfing, you're getting birdies.

1:20:22Wait, this is amazing. Because it does kind of – I'm not a good golfer, but I've like gone a couple times. I love things that I actually cannot think of other things while I'm doing it. You can't think of other things. It's something that I'm definitely – it's really interesting to be somebody who's like really good at a thing and then do something that you're terrible at. And like it's all about making yourself good at it. But I also like the fact that – and like I sort of revel in this idea that like a country club is not a space that was like made for me. Nobody was thinking like this black lady is going to be at a country club.

1:20:52It's not a thing. So I kind of love this idea of like occupying these spaces that necessarily weren't made for us and like we're like sort of taking them over. Like I have these women I golf with and we're like loud and we're like rowdy and we're not like lady golfers. We're like, you know, we're women who golf. Oh my god. And it's a lot of fun. I can't imagine being on a golf cart and turning like, is that Shonda Rhimes? You're vibing. You've got the speakers going. Yes, exactly. And we're having a really good time doing it. That's incredible. But it also allows me for the first time to think of myself as like, and my sister laughs at this every time, but like an athlete.

1:21:25Like I'm like, I'm an athlete. There's an athlete inside me and it's coming out. Oh, I love this for you. Okay. Looking to the future, last question. What is something you're really excited about? Oh, wow. I have to and this is going to be vague and it's not I don't mean it to be vague. I'm really excited about whatever's next because I am in this percolation phase where I'm trying to figure out what my next story is and it's been a while since I've told like a brand new fresh story. So I'm really excited for that moment. Like I'm really excited to like dig back in roll my sleeves up and like get back into a show.

1:21:59I am beyond excited. I'm jealous that I can't like go in that brain of yours. I'm like staring your forehead. I'm like what is she thinking? What's going on in there. It's so exciting. You're so talented. You've been in our homes for now like decades. And I just feel like this next era for you, I'm very excited to see what you come up with because I know we're all going to love it. But if anything, I'm now like you've done so much that I can't wait to see what avenue you choose in terms of theme and story and characters. Like there's still so much to be done and I'm happy that you're going to come back to us.

1:22:34Love it. Shonda Rhimes, this was everything I could have imagined and more. I feel so stimulated from this conversation. I feel motivated. So thank you for giving me your time. I know you're very busy. And it was an honor to interview you. This was fantastic. This was a great conversation. It was so good. And I understand like you're an amazing interviewer. So truly, I've had some interviews. This was amazing and really fun conversation and relaxed and lovely. So thank you so much. Thank you for coming.

1:23:06Thank you.