The Real Avril Lavigne

0:02What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with call her daddy. Avril Lavigne just walked into my studio and brought me beer champagne and pizza and I've never done a podcast before dude cheers tops bottoms bottoms tops crisp cross fuck I already feel so much cooler I'm really really happy you're here I'm obsessed the way to kick this off is so fucking good daddy gang if you're listening to this and you cannot see anything Avril just walked in here pizza beer champagne you're a pretty good guest thanks for coming so this is your first Canadian would I be if I didn't show up with beer I'm obsessed I didn't know what to expect like obviously I think what's so fun with songwriters and musicians is like we don't all the time get to see your personality so you literally never know what to expect so it's fun to immediately kick it off and be like oh you're comedy you know what you're doing Avril okay um First podcast.

1:05Why don't you usually do sit down long interviews?

1:13I usually don't really like interviews. I get it. If I'm honest. No, it's fine. It's never been like my favorite thing to do, but like you seem super cool. So I'm happy to be here. We're just going to chill for an hour and hopefully you don't hate me by the end of this. I promise it's going to be chill. Yeah.

1:45You recently just announced that you're going on a North American tour and you are releasing your greatest hits album. How did you decide to do this? It's so iconic and inspiring. Yeah, so it's like 22 years into my career now, which is super gnarly to even think about. and I'm releasing a Greatest Hits album in June and going on the Greatest Hits tour. And it's pretty great to be going back out on the road and doing one of the biggest tours of my career this far, just off celebrating my catalog. So I feel super stoked and lucky to still be doing my thing and loving it more than ever. I just like not to freak you out, but I love you.

2:31and I grew up loving you and I used to make the most embarrassing music videos to all of your songs like I have one of the most embarrassing music videos to um nobody's home and it's like little young Alex fucking depressed being like singing in the corner of my room six years old seven years old eight years old to now being like it's dope to be in your presence wow that's crazy thank you I you made music videos I feel like you need to like find that bring that up and like put little clips on tiktok i need to see that see the thing is avril is like my version of a music video compared to like the young kids on tiktok now like they're hot and cool and like wear cute outfits and know how to do like contour i was fucking busted with my little like acne and braces so like they're not cute okay they're for like my parents to see only and be like you were so cute i'm like mom i was hideous um what is the difference like when you go on a tour what is the difference between touring now versus like when you first started out?

3:28So like on my first tour, I wanted to be like Green Day because I had gone to one of their shows and like all of their songs were like hit after hit after hit, just like singles. It was just like power all the way through. And so like on my my first tour, I only had three singles and the rest was just like album tracks and like for me that just wasn't good enough I wanted every song to be like a banger so I guess I'd say I worked super hard to get to this point where now like every single song in my set list is as a hit song a single um been like a really big milestone and part of my career so like making a strong set list is like for me that's like the biggest thing that goes into the show but I think um every tour has gotten easier I've come out of my shell more as a performer also like bringing like my favorite bands out on the road to open with me like actually like my friends yeah oh that's so we can play like beer pong backstage skateboard backstage together have barbecues backstage didn't you have simple plan yeah so simple plan opened for me on my first tour back in 2002 and you had all-time low too all-time lower oh my god I was so obsessed with all-time low I had post I was like I was like very very obsessed with them at a point where I was like this is concerning like I really thought I was gonna marry one of them and then like I obviously didn't I was no I was obsessed and I would like wear skinny jeans and like the cult like I would wear like skinny colored jeans where are you from I'm from Pennsylvania okay and you're from Canada Yeah, I'm from Canada.

5:10What do you do to make it fun on tour? Like, give me an example. I like touring with my friends and like days off taking the bus to like a campsite and going camping and going and pulling up into like an RV site instead of like going to a hotel and just like sitting there staring at the ceiling like, what is my life? Seeing way too many of those way too long. like I just go on Amazon and I get a bunch of fun like I've got a pink cooler that I've just ordered and pink chairs that'll sit outside of my bus every day there will be beer there I'll have my skateboards out and then usually my bus is the cool bus because of that and I have my beer pong table out there and then everyone just like after the show comes my way.

5:52Do you have any pre-show rituals? Are you superstitious at all? I'm just like mellow as fuck in the day because if you think about it the show is around like 9 p.m which is why noon feels like super early i'm sorry that you're even awake i'm so sorry that this interview is at noon i like come walking i like one eye over and i'm just like i haven't worked out i haven't had breakfast i need to like make sure i'm covered here oh my god i'm sorry about that yeah you someone came there like do you think you can lower the lights a little bit i'm like Oh, right. She's not awake. You're literally doing this asleep.

6:30You're going to leave and be like, what the fuck did I say on that interview? My time, even though the interview is at noon, my time was like eight o 'clock glam. Stop. Leave the house at 1030. I was like, can we push glam till nine? So not superstitious. Yeah, no, I think I just like what's important is that I do take care of myself before the show. Yes. And then do the complete opposite after the show. So it's like sleep in, hopefully till three or noon on the early side. And then like the show, that is like the gym session. It's a 90 minute set at like nine o 'clock at night. So that's when I have to like give it my all and be awake.

7:15But that is actually the flow of my body is to like wake up at night. Not a morning person. We've made that clear. or a new person you're like why am i here can i take a quick nap alex you just talk for the next hour i have some pizza um that is no but that makes sense though because i like i think that's if anyone has a nighttime job like yeah sleeping in you have to bring it it starts and then we don't go to bed till 6 a.m because you get off stage you're wired you're amped the adrenaline and then like bus call buses don't leave until like whatever three o 'clock so it's like after the show we like set up a barbecue you know have fun hang out with the bands and all that and party and for me like that tour bus that's my home so again another fun amazon order of just hello the fuck kitty everything i've got like 20 hello kitty pillows in the front lounge and i've got like hello kitty bedding hello kitty towels and everything's just pink and fun oh my god I didn't even think you would be a Hello Kitty girl yeah I would think like maybe a lot of black I have a Hello Kitty room on my house the Torvitz is Hello Kitty Torvitz but my room in at my house I have a room well it used to be my bedroom and it's a Hello Kitty bedroom when guys came over would they like be a little freaked out to like have sex in that room well I I wasn't there wasn't a lot of guys okay sorry If a man.

8:48Long relationships. Right, right, right. If a man. I mean, there was like a stripper pool and the little coffee table and like this huge pink velvet couch full of like all these stuffed animal Hello Kitties. Are you getting on the stripper pool? Oh, hell yeah. Wait, you're good on a stripper pool? Wait, you need to teach me. What the fuck? How did you learn to get on a... You just have a couple of those and wing it. you have a couple beers and you're ready to go wow a new talent I guess if I'd asked you like what's a hidden talent would you ever say that or no no next time you go to a party and they ask you a fun fact about yourself you're like I can rip on a stripper pole you're welcome um what is one of the craziest like fan interactions you've ever had I got a wedding dress and when I was like over in Korea bunny was thrown at me on my lap in like a bag and I was like oh what's this it's warm and I like open it.

9:46I'm like, I thought it was a cat. It was a bunny. But we took care of it, made sure it went somewhere safe. And then I had a wedding dress and I was like, that's cool, but it's weird. Yeah, because now that like woman will never see her wedding dress again. No, it was like for me from a guy. Wait, what? I thought you were saying like a woman gave you her wedding dress to like take and sign. A man gave you a wedding dress. Yeah, I guess that was a super forward way of proposing. So romantic. have that affect our people literally literally we'll get to that your style can we talk about this for a minute because again like when I was younger I just remember so many moments in early 2000s trends were dictated by you queen like your style was and is everything if you had to pick three essential wardrobe items that are like your staples what would you pick a big hoodie it's like an oversized black hoodie um like bondage pants and like military boots like combat boots okay so that has like kind of changed because when I was younger Avril I remember it was the necktie.

11:03The necktie. But you don't understand. I would look at you and be like, oh my, this is the fucking coolest thing ever that she's wearing a necktie. So I would venture into my older brother's room. But he went to a Catholic prep school so he had ties that were wide as fuck and ugly and hideous and that's the only tie I could find and I would wear it around my house with a little wife beater. Oh my god, stop! That is so cute! I really thought I was doing something and I hope those photos never surfaced. But the necktie was iconic. And then like the little, like the sweatbands on your wrist you used to wear, which were so cool.

11:40Yeah, it's crazy. I've been thinking about the tie a lot lately. And the wristbands, the sweatbands with the Skater Boy star, which is like my tattoo right here. And I'll probably wear those on stage because I used to wear them all the time. All the time. Yeah. And. That's so fun. Maybe I'll wear the necktie on stage. Please. honestly do it for me like I will literally have like a revival in my soul I need to come to a show I'm like so obsessed but that would be epic I think everyone anytime we see you in a tie it just brings us back to like our childhood it makes us happy it was so crazy like my first show so I was like 17 and it was I don't know where it was it was in Vancouver somewhere and it was sort of like a warm-up show they were putting together for me and it was like in like a little club and it was like the first real show and I remember like being up in my dressing room and looking out onto the street and seeing like all the like fans lined up to come in and they were the girls were they were dressed like me they had on the the tank white tank top and the tie and like stick straight hair and black eyeliner and I was like what I was like this is crazy and it like from like the first show it was like from the beginning it was like a thing and pretty cool too to see like every album like my image changed a bit so like uh under my skin my second album i put like black hair in and was wearing the bondage pants and then all the girls front row like the blonde hair with the black underneath the bondage pants black eyes the third album the best damn thing showing up the show with the uh the pink streak in the hair and just like i will never forget that trust me I thought about doing it my mom was like absolutely fucking not Alex I'm like shit were you always like super confident to wear whatever you wanted to wear like your whole life yeah it kind of just like came together I didn't like think about it or anything um like obviously when I was younger I was like just dressing in whatever my mom bought and then when I got you know into high school I was like okay I like hoodies and skateboarding clothes and I started skateboarding and was into like West 49 and vans and started wearing like really baggy pants and um my parents were just like um are you gonna be dressing like a boy so like when I like made when I went out to New York City and um was like meeting with like important people and writing songs in the studio they were kind of like can you like dress up a little better but what was awesome was when I got signed by LA Reed um I was sitting in his office I was like 16 and he just looked at me and he was like taking a meeting with my mom and I and he's like you know you have like your own thing going on girl like usually we have like people come in and you have to like figure out what your style is and we like help you and whatever and he's like you got your own thing going on like you just keep doing you and like I think that was awesome I'm so glad he did that probably like looking back that did instill confidence in me but also like I didn't care I was gonna dress that way anyway right but like no but that's like a great thing to know that someone didn't try to change you that was probably in a position where like if they asked you to I'm sure your mom and you would have looked at each other and been like fuck like is this what we have to do to make it in this industry?

15:17And like normally they probably, especially like at that time with like all bubblegum pop was so big, they probably would have put me in something sexy, cute, pink, girly, frilly, like mid drift. And like, that wasn't not my vibe. There's definitely like times that like photo shoots, I'd show up at whatever magazine to shoot, to shoot and they wanted to put me in stuff that like I was very afraid of. like blouses and I was just like nah so I'd like you know you'd have to like have a word with them the manager would be like you know she has her own style and like pull out my like skateboarding book bag and dump like my ties and my spike bracelets on the floor and be like and I use my stuff but we had to go back and forth but it was like a little bit of a fight and I had to always push for that but it worked out pretty good it worked out phenomenally I want to go back a little bit to your childhood because I think like when you're looking at someone so famous and so successful it is fascinating like you grew up in Canada in a really small town with like 5 ,000 people how would you describe your childhood like before you were famous

16:45How would you describe your childhood, like, before you were famous? Normal as fuck. And I'm, like, grateful for that because, like, I came out at, like, a really young age. And I'm glad that I had, like, a normal, steady, like, solid childhood. I played a lot of sports. I was on the hockey team. I was going to say. The guys' hockey team. How the fuck did you get onto the guys' hockey team? Well, I just wanted to play hockey. And it was like the guys, there wasn't a girls league. So I was able to play from like novice to peewee. And then peewee is when there's body contact. And that's when I wasn't allowed to play anymore.

17:29But then at that, by that time, I was in grade nine, like my first year of high school. And they had a girls team in the high school. So I tried out for that. And I almost said auditioned. You auditioned. I tried out for the girls team in high school and I made it. And then I blew it by going to our first tournament out of town and getting expelled from school and kicked off the out of the tournament because someone got caught drinking in the hotel room and someone ratted her out. No, Avril. And my parents were just so mad at me. Like, it was like, I like did drugs or something, which I've never done, by the way.

18:14And it was like, I had done something so terrible. It's like, who cares? Of course I'm away from my parents. I'm in a hotel. We're in Toronto, the big city, doing like an, you know, like an off-sa tournament. And like, yeah, I got busted. So I had to go home. My parents were like, we're going to send you to the Catholic school. And I was just like, oh, what have I done? Stop. Did you make friends with all the guys when you were playing with like guys? or were you like the odd man out and people would make fun of you? My whole life I've been like friends with guys all in school and we would like get in real fights.

18:50I'm a good blocker. That was my move. I'm a blocker. Like block the punch. And, yeah, so I played a lot of sports. Hockey in the winter, baseball in the summer. I was a pitcher. There was a lot of like because I was so into hockey, like there's a lot of like rollerblading so I was rollerblading around town building forts skateboarding and um and all that stuff yeah I hung out with the guys and then I like left home had a band lived on a tour bus with guys and still like to this day I'm just like most of my friends are guys did your parents ever be like why don't you have any girlfriends like should we invite like Rebecca over like let's try this let's give it a whirl Averill or did they like not give a shit my parents were really strict with me like if I had a guy over who was just my friend even like there was no bedroom it was like the middle floor they monitored it it was dinner it was but all we wanted to do anyway was run around and like rollerblade skateboard play mini hockey i played hockey too and my brother played hockey yes what position i was like well first of all i was like not that great i ended up going and playing soccer but i was like on offense and my dad works for the nhl yeah so like my whole life hockey it was oh my god we were a full it was oh my god it was cool but we were like it was weird i think in pennsylvania like you're lucky canada it was like that's the sport yeah but in pennsylvania people were like why do you have your children playing freaking hockey and my dad was like it's just the best sport ever like just trust us and so we had like roller hockey mini hockey in the basement on the carpet like we did the sticks and burn them over the stove yes oh my god and like I think people are like what are you guys doing in your basement we're like we're playing mini hockey living our best lives literally thriving and it was so fun no one will ever fuck with us when we're older but it's cool that you played hockey because I feel like it's obviously a sport that makes you really fucking tough it does and you just learn to like basically get the shit beaten out of you on the ice and then you're like oh it's normal day and it's freezing cold all the pads wake up and just skating alone is so hard it's like gnarly cardio and then if you're actually like playing and stick handling and shooting and like you're out there and the game is happening skating is its own thing oh my god I remember like I want because Matt my husband is from LA and I so badly just want to take him like ice skating even if it's like during Christmas time around like the little fucking pond okay because he's so good at sports but he does not know how to ice skate so I'm like watch me backwards skate watch me skate around watch me do drills bitch like can you are you awesome on skate I'm really good like me too we should go skate yes we're in LA Like I can skate backwards, cross over all of it.

21:50It's like it is a pretty good skill to have. And I feel like it's a flex when like a guy takes you ice skating during like the holidays and you're like, oh, you think I'm gonna have to hold your hand or hold on to like the rails the whole time? Bitch, I'm going to be holding you. Like I know Matt's going to be falling and I'm going to be holding him. I just don't know if I want to take him because I may get the ick. So I just like need to be careful. I was like, make sure he's ready for that. No, literally. So you like had a pretty normal upbringing, which I'm happy you're talking about. Cause it's like, you're playing sports.

22:18I babysat. I shoveled driveways. I mowed lawn and did the whippersnipper. The weed whacker. I put flyers out. Stop. I cleaned houses. You did it all. I worked at a fried chicken place. How was that? And then I got fired. Again, were you drinking on the job? No, I was, I'm a really good, a hard worker. I actually requested for some time off to perform somewhere, and he used it against me. Oh, my God. He must feel so fucking dumb now. He's like, fuck. And then I wrote a song about it on my first album. Wait, which one? It's called My World. And that's about the chicken shop you worked at? I got fired by a fried chicken ass all in a small town, Nathalie.

23:04Wait, that was about him? Shut the fuck up. And I heard after they took the lyrics of my song and like framed it and put it up in the store. You're like, fuck you. Fuck you, I could have used the extra$20. Wait, that's fucking epic. I didn't realize that. Like now I need to go back and listen to that song again because sometimes when you're listening to songs, you're like, oh, did they just kind of like make that up or like that you literally lived that. You got fucking fired from those chicken fuckers. I talk about my hair is actually so curly. Like no one knows that. It is? I have a really frizzy curly hair.

23:37What? I didn't discover the flat iron until the making of my first album. So on that song, Also My World, I talk about how I would braid my hair in a zillion braids and it would take me all friggin' day. Are there lyrics? Because it would take me five hours. So I would just braid my hair in little braids because there was no flat iron back then or definitely not in my small town. Then when I came to L.A. and was working on my album, My producer took me to get a blow dry. And I was like, what? This is life changing. Do you know what I have done? I used to like shower and like wash my hair and like put on a toque.

24:19Stop. What you guys call a beanie in the States. A beanie. Just like let my hair try to dry flat. I couldn't get it straight. You're trying to literally like pin it to your head. So then she got me, my producer got me a flat iron. Actually, yeah, for my birthday. and then it was it was game over everyone just thinks I have stick straight hair because it's like never well I ever want curly hair I got it's so straight it's so straight like your first album I remember because my hair is so naturally straight that I was like oh my because so girls used to make fun of me in like middle school being like your best friend is your straightener and I was like I don't own a straightener because my hair was so straight so when I saw your first album I was like oh my god she's a straight hair girly like me now i'm realizing like avril dude if you saw my hair it's like poof it's like so curly i hate it but like my friends like it i bet it's so gorge like i bet you actually look amazing but i get when you're younger like anything you have you're like i want the opposite i don't want this shit but my hair is so thick so when i do get a blow dry it's like lasts for like a week when i'm thinking now of how normal your upbringing was like What do you think people in your town thought when you started getting famous?

25:36I don't know. Like, do you think it was a surprise to people? Like, okay, so like around school. Okay, so when I was 14, I won a contest to sing on stage with Shania Twain in Ottawa. So I was like a few hours away from my small town. and like I sang on stage with her and then I came back and I was like famous in my high school. It was like walking down the hallway. It's like, ah, singer girl. She's the singer girl. That's several. So everyone kind of knew me as like the singer girl. You got famous at 17 years old. Yeah. Like big, big thing. So I'm a high school dropout. Love. Love. Me too. I went to New York and I started making my first album.

26:19My friends were all doing, what are those things called? The exams. Oh, that's the shit I didn't have to do. Is it an exam? Like SATs? What's the thing at the end? Yeah. Yeah, an exam. Yeah, I didn't have to do that. Oh, finals? And I would make fun of them, and I'd be like, thank God I don't have to do this. I'm just in New York gaining 10 pounds, eating McDonald's and pizza every day. No shit. That's all my brother and I did because he came to chaperone. Oh, my God. And so, yeah. And but all I was thinking at the same time was this better work. Right. This better work. Because I feel like you're a quite confident person.

26:58Like, did you have any insecurities back then? No. I was like, just like tomboy, liked hanging out with the guys, loved music. And then, you know, like when I was younger, I was singing in church, singing at like the country fairs around town. That's kind of like those were sort of the like options in front of me. Then when I got into high school, so like 14, 15, I was like, not really feeling these songs anymore. So I like went through a phase where it was like I could have gone, you know, I was at a crossroads. It could have been like, OK, I'm not going to sing anymore. Or it was just like I was just like, I don't want to do these events anymore.

27:40So I started turning them down and it was kind of like, oh, what are we doing here? and that forced me to write my own songs so I sat in my bedroom and was like playing the guitar I had no idea what I was doing I knew one chord but I was gonna figure it out and so I started definitely like writing for sure at 14 and I know that because one of my songs I wrote oh my god really I'm 14 years old no I'm not that old that's one of the fucking lyrics in the song So I was like, I know I was writing by 14. That's amazing. Yeah. So and then I got into high school and then I discovered like Green Day and no effects, Blink-182.

28:22And I was like, yes. And like got an electric guitar, wore it low and just started writing my own songs. And that's kind of like where it all shifted for me. and then sort of like ended up performing again and making my way to New York City, getting a record deal by like 16 and was so young. No one could fathom that like I wanted to write my own songs. So that was like the biggest sort of challenge on the making of the first album and that everyone, the producers, you know, they naturally went to like polished and fluffy and this and that and I was just like, no. And it was like really, I worked with a million people on that album and then I finally connected towards the end with a couple of producers that then understood.

29:15They like sat there and listened to me and heard what I was going for. We wrote the songs together and it was like a really perfect collaboration where it was like, okay, there's this young girl. She has a vision. We're going to work with her and help her get there. And they were all extremely talented people too. and so fought for that got it and like you know developed my own sound and style and and the rest is history that first like sound and style like I remember I was reading somewhere you really described it as like pretty like angsty and like you coming across as like a quite like chill happy person like were you actually feeling a lot of those emotions because like some of the songs are really fucking sad because trust me I cried to them and I when I was growing up so like where were those feelings coming from?

30:02I'm a really big feeler and I feel everything. And I've gone through, you know, I've obviously experienced all different types of emotion. When you're in high school, when you're going in that age, you know, you're really trying to let you're like feeling having a crush for the first time or being disappointed, feeling neglected, or like being vulnerable and opening your heart to someone, your first breakup and the excitement of something new. There's so much to tap into and to write about. I was never really thinking about it. It would probably just end up being that day what I was feeling. There's definitely songs like Losing Grip.

30:45I'm often like, I listen to the lyrics and I'm like, and I knew it when I was writing them. I'm like, where's this shit coming from? Is this my past life? were your parents ever like what the fuck Avril are you okay not really but they didn't like the swearing they were a little like you know the clothes but like they get it my mom when I was two she was like she knew I was going to be a singer like came home from church she's like she's holy shit holy god she's like she's like she said I came home from church singing Jesus loves me or Jesus Loves You and she's like oh my god she can sing and so my parents were like so supportive and like obviously wouldn't be here without that support.

31:32Were you always confident getting on a stage? Like are you like I feel like you're not. Yeah. You were. Yeah. I always have this weird dream though where I'm on stage and I can't remember the words. Why have I been doing that lately? Wait stop. But no I'm confident on stage. It's like nothing. You never even thought about it. It's like nothing. Yeah. that's incredible and when okay and then when I sang with Shania on stage it was in front of like 20 ,000 people in this arena like packed I was 14 and I did all I felt like overcome my whole body was like like walked out on stage and I was just like oh my gosh like I really this is what I really want like for me and then like two years later three years later I sold out that arena and played my own show do you remember like how you felt I was like this is crazy this is insane and when you would have those moments of like holy fuck like would you turn to like your mom like who was your go-to person to like freak out with I still like have them all the time wow just like if I'm just like walking I hear myself like out in public and I'm like I was gonna say and I'm in a mall and then I hear myself but I'm not really in a mall I don't know where I am maybe it's an outdoor mall I don't know I love wherever I am and I hear myself on the radio like it's it's definitely like damn bitch you made it like you did small town no connections I don't know how I did it it was supposed to happen obviously it was a lot of hard work but it's really interesting to hear you talking about your songwriting process because you're so talented thanks and hearing you be like I'm writing losing grip and I'm literally like what the fuck am I where did I did I experience this like nobody's home like it's right well I kind of felt that way too but like I was also like okay I'm gonna write this about this like girl that I know or like the words sort of start and I'm like oh I'm gonna take it in this direction and it's not about me and I'm tapping into like what I know somebody else went through interesting yeah how did you feel about all the fame and attention I think I was fine with it and like my whole life is like weird because of it like everything I do you're in public so you just like do weird things like there's people walking so you just kind of turn or like you're not just gonna not just gonna like stand there you know it's like I mean if I was like in an airport waiting for like a suitcase you know you're gonna like kind of stand behind the like pillar you're not just gonna stand it's all like that and it never bugged me or anything I just like I got it I was like okay this is how things go now that's a really healthy way to look at it Because I feel like that's a unique perspective.

34:12Yeah. Like I feel like a lot of people feel like they don't have autonomy over their life once they get famous. And you're like chilling. Like I get followed every time. Not every time, but I get followed when I leave my house. I don't know how. I try to like go different ways and stuff like that. And so like I like to go to the grocery store and I like to do all that stuff. But I have to be in the headspace to like energetically, energetically handle it. which I'm totally fine with too like really do you really want your picture taken like this if you walk out right now are you okay with it you know what I mean it's like you have to think about that that's I mean I am really pleased by your answer like there is no right or wrong answer like I've had musicians sit here and be like I'm such an introvert it's really fucking hard and like I hate it and I wish I could just write songs and upload it and never be in public that's awesome to know that you're someone that's like I don't really care it's actually kind of chill it is what it is and like i i learned it and how to move with it and it's like i would never complain about it because what i get to do is fucking awesome and that's part of it like how fucking cool is that that like people know who i am that means my music got heard so fucking true

35:37What do you think people, if anything, like misunderstood about you from your career and like you growing up in the spotlight? So I think when people meet me, like, I think they're like, oh, my God, you're so nice. You're so sweet. I've asked people too. Guys are more like, I don't know what the word is, like soft, feminine, more than girly or something. I think people, because of my music videos, think I'm like all the time and I'm not. I'm actually like, well, what do you think? What is your take on me? Yeah, I mean, just now trying to think about it because I think when you were younger, I really, and I was younger, I channeled like, oh, this girl's sad and angry.

36:32I know, it was like, angry Avril. Yeah, and I think that was like, but now it's kind of really incredible to like get to sit across from you and hear you be like, some of these songs I was writing, like there was a girl I knew and I was like writing about her and then like it really wasn't that deep. Like my boss fucking fired me from my chicken spot. and so I'm like fuck you I wish I got my extra 20 and my new my other paycheck like I think it's I do think though I don't take back though like I loved how deep those songs were and yeah they were because I felt like a lot of people needed that that type of music back then like I think you're right there was so much like pop and princess and it was like yeah like let's shake our bodies and be and I'm like I don't my my crush that doesn't even know I exist broke up with me and he didn't even know he broke up with me, but he didn't look at me today, so I'm heartbroken.

37:22And I'm going to go listen to Losing Grit, but I'm going to fucking cry. I needed that, okay? I don't need like a shake your body and dance and be happy. Sure, maybe on a Friday night. But like I in that era needed that depressing-esque music. Is that fucked up to say? Yeah. But it's nice to know you weren't depressed, I guess. I mean, I went through it all. And I was like a teenager and feeling the feels. and I was definitely like in like emo and like going through it and like feeling it all and um it's like I don't want to write a song about being happy because it's gonna be kind of like cheesy and like not that cool kind of go and do that right now I'm like I don't know what to write about because like it's just like that's the thing it's like an intense emotion like Like Head Above Water was like a really dark, heavy song for me.

38:12Like kind of like near death experience. Like one of the hardest things I've ever gone through in my life. But like real easy to write about. I was literally like laying there in bed like I'm dying and I'm accepting it. Oh, there's a song. And I literally grabbed my phone and like the song like channels to me. Are you referencing when you got sick? Yeah. okay and that was really kind of like what two plus years of your life you were like in bed yeah it was like it was kind of like bedridden for a couple years and like and then like you know you got like stronger coming out of that and that's something like rocks you pretty hard but like i'm really grateful to be like on the other other end of that and so that was like a really um in i'll think twice about uh riding the dirt bikes out in the woods on the east coast next time because it was Lyme's disease yes all I did was like outside and it's like you know but I get what you're saying you're like then you're laying there and you're like yeah I can write a depressing song right now because this fucking sucks but it's like waves of emotion that you're like tuning into and like I've gone through a lot in my life in love like tons of ups and downs and like you know definitely written like the angry songs and the sad songs and having going through like something hard in life it's easy to like sit down at the piano especially that instrument really pulls it out of me um but on like my last album love sucks it was like much lighter um even though it was like little boy bashing and like poking fun at like love and stuff it was i kind of like putting a twist on my songs now where it's like it's like it's funny It's like I'm just like rolling my eyes at myself for it like not working out again or something and just like having fun with it.

40:10I don't like I'm in a phase in a place right now today where I'm writing. I don't really like want it to be like that dark. I say that means nothing at all because tomorrow I could write a boo-hoo song. I think that's something that I. You just never know. like with it's like when I when I get in the kitchen and I'm cooking I don't know what I'm cooking and it turns into what it turns into I get a canvas I love to paint I have no idea what I'm doing I'm like oh that looks cool that can go on the wall that one not so much totally no when you write a song sometimes like you can be intentional with an album go in and be like this is my vibe or you can just like wing it right and just see what kind of comes out and gets put together.

40:54I think that some people may not know. Like, I love that you said, like, when you walked into those meetings, people were like, how is like a 15, 16 year old girl trying to write? Like, here, let us give you writers and like, just go sing, sweetie. And I think you're such an incredible, I know you're such an incredible writer that like, I know one of the fun facts online that everyone still can't get over is that you wrote breakaway for Kelly Clarkson. And that's like a perfect example of like, you're so talented. Do you remember writing that song? and like was it about a heartbreak the lyric used to be i grew up in a small town and when the snow would fall down i would just stare out my window oh my god i'm actually gonna um probably will perform that breakaway kelly clarkson's breakaway on the greatest hits tour that would be fucking amazing how but how did you decide to get rid of it um i just like wasn't feeling it yeah and um I'm so glad it went to her.