Your Friends Aren't Therapists

0:00Hello, Daddy Gang. Welcome back to another Sunday session, guys. I couldn't be happier. I'm actually in the best mood in the world. Why, Alex? Why would you be in such a gorgeous mood? Oh, because it's a Sunday session and we're all just hanging out? Yes. Yes. But also no. It has been raining for about seven straight days in Los Angeles and it is finally cold and it's chilly and it is the most gorgeous weather I could have ever asked for in the world. Everyone in LA that's like from the West Coast or in LA is like, people are acting like they don't know how to drive. I'm from the East Coast, okay?

0:37My mother used to put my siblings and I in the minivan, and we would be like sliding on ice, okay, to get to the soccer game. And Lori would just plow through the snow, okay? And it was like a normal day. Rain? Rain was just like a sunny day in Pennsylvania growing up. And people on the roads right now are acting like they could swerve off the road from like a little bit of rain. So the East Coast are in me like could not be happier and cozier that it is finally actually kind of feeling like winter time. Okay. I do love living in Los Angeles, but I am a season's whore through and through. And this is feeling, you know, it's, it's bare minimum.

1:19It's giving bare minimum, but I'll take it. It's like, let the rain fall down. I'm all of a sudden not drinking my iced coffees in the morning. It's like 70 degrees outside, but I'm like, oh my God, I have to make a hot chocolate. Anyways, because of the rain, I have been doing something lately that I wouldn't say I don't do often, but I've definitely amped it up in the past month. And then this past seven days, I feel like it's all I've been doing in between work, which I will get to. Because I can't believe I'm going to say this, but lately I have found myself just really missing learning. You know, you couldn't pay me to say those words when I was in high school, middle school, high school, college.

2:07I was like a good student, but I didn't want to be like, I wasn't happy. You know what I mean? I wasn't enjoying studying. I wasn't enjoying doing all these things. Like I actually really quite hated it. So I know that may sound weird, but it's the honest truth. Like I feel like for so much of our lives, yes, although we may not enjoy it when we're in school and then even in the start of our careers, we're learning all the time, whether we want to or not. And we're constantly being exposed to new ideas and we're being forced to grow and evolve. And then as you get older, you kind of settle into your life and your career and that external push to keep learning really starts to go away.

2:46And then it becomes solely on you to stay curious and interested in wanting to learn and expand your knowledge of the world. And a lot of us are like, sayonara, motherfuckers. I'm never opening a textbook again, which is so fair, which is so fair. Cause I feel like a lot of us are traumatized from school and like the SATs or, you know, midterms. And you're like, I don't want to, I don't want to do this again. I want to watch Gilmore Girls and Gossip Girl. And that is my education. That is so fair. Okay. But I will say that I have noticed, and I'm sure it's not this way for people directly out of college, but as I'm, you know, entering my thirties and I'm in my early thirties now, like I will say I've noticed just how much better I feel when I am taking time to learn just for the sake of it, whether it's, you know, spending a day reading articles or watching a documentary or reading a book that I wouldn't normally pick up.

3:38It just feels good to be curious and to think on topics that aren't in my immediate worldview. What a concept. And so why I'm bringing this up on Caller Daddy on a random Sunday session is because I realized I'm not alone in this. I have seen so many videos on the internet of people being like, I'm like craving some form of substance and intelligence back in my life. And I feel like so much of our life right now is consumed by the internet. And obviously at times it is, there is nothing better than to sit and relax and watch people make new food recipes that you're going to save and you're going to never make or try on makeup and you're watching them try on the makeup and the clothes and all the things.

4:22Lovely. But I do feel like a lot of us are starting to kind of hit a wall where we feel like, okay, my brain is literally rotting and I need to stimulate myself in order to actually learn something. And so that I can continue to evolve and have interesting thoughts and conversations with myself and also other people. Like what a concept. And so today I kind of want to start carving out time on these Sunday sessions to just do that together. This isn't going to be me like preaching at you guys. I'm trying to also fucking learn myself. And I kind of want to make this like a little book club for us.

4:56It's going to be bite-sized podcasts where I'm going to compile articles, essays, think pieces, and talk to therapists when we could obviously use an expert opinion on a topic. But when I find something interesting or ideally even challenging to understand that I think I am interested in and you guys would be interested in, I am going to bring it here and we will get into it together. Okay. This is not turning into an educational podcast. Okay. We're not going to be talking about the microbiome unless you want me to do that. You know, we can go back to the plasma. I was never good in science. Um, no, but I just, I think it's important.

5:36Like I went to a dinner the other night with my husband and some of our friends and someone brought up this question and I was like, oh, I was recently reading a book that talked about this one of the chapters and everyone was like, tell us more, Alex. And I don't know the last time anyone has done that at a dinner table with me other than they were like, tell us what it was like to interview Kim Kardashian or tell us what it was like to interview, which is still so fun. But this was something where I was like, oh my God, I'm actually bringing information and I'm sharing things with people that people are like, wait, that's fascinating.

6:10What is the book called? And I want to read it. So you know what? It is kind of fun to feel like you're smart, even if you're just learning it from a book and you're retaining it. What a concept. Let's try to do that a little bit more often. And if you don't want to read the book, great. I will distill it down to you from me reading the fucking books for you guys. Okay. So let's get into it. This week, we're starting with a somewhat, I think pretty easy-ish topic, but I found an article about the expectations we place on friendships. And it really had me evaluating the relationships that I have in my own life.

6:45And it is from the New York Times and it is called The Vexing Problem of the Medium Friend by Lisa Miller. And so just off the bat, let's start with like, what is a medium friend? Like, what does that mean? Because I've personally never heard that term before I read this article. And so according to this article, the medium friend is someone who you're not that close with, but they're more than just like a casual acquaintance. Maybe you hang out with them a few times a year. Maybe you see them weekly at a shared activity like pickleball or pottery or, you know, Pilates, if that's your thing. And they are people that we enjoy seeing and can share fun experiences with, but they're not actually in your closest circle of friends.

7:35I think in a time where we are so caught up in the weeds of labeling and quantifying who our best friends are like, oh my God, who is coming on my bachelorette and who's going to be my, you know, in my bridesmaids and who's going to be invited to my birthday dinner and all these things. Like I weirdly think there's actually something beautiful about the medium friend. And I'm going to get into truly what that is because the point is, is this person doesn't have to be everything to you, but they can still serve a genuine purpose in your life. One of my medium friends is a girl who I met in college and she lives in LA now, but we don't really see each other very often.

8:17Let's call her Jessica. Okay. Jessica and I have both been saying like, oh my God, we need to do this. And then we'll be like, oh my God, wait, can you actually do it next week? And then once it's next week, then it's like, wait, could you actually do it next week? And we have literally been trying to get together for four months now, trying to find a time that would work for both of us for dinner. And so by the time that the day actually rolled around that worked for both of us, I am not going to lie. I was a little apprehensive and in my head about just like what would the vibe be we hadn't seen each other in a minute I also was so tired from work so it was easier for me to just cancel I was like maybe it will just be simpler because like will we even have that much to talk about and like how will the conversation go and all these things I just had no idea what I was getting into and then you guys it turned out to be one of my favorite nights that I've had in a really really long time and I think it's because one there was nostalgia there so I was able to talk about a time in my life that I don't get to talk about that often anymore.

9:13Like I don't have that many people that live in Los Angeles that I went to college with that I'm like actively just like going to dinners with. But then on top of that, she and I have actually like couldn't have more polar opposite of jobs and professions. So it was so fascinating to talk to her about what was going on at work for her and what was, she was up to and hearing her talk about something that I had no vested interest in, but I also was fascinated because it was like taking me out of my life for a minute. also weirdly like hearing about like what is your family doing for the holidays and what are you guys going to be doing it was nice because I also don't really know her family at all so yes she was even giving me some of the family drama but it wasn't directly going to affect my life and I almost weirdly like didn't need to give advice I was just kind of like oh my god wait well I can tell you my family drama so it was kind of really lovely to get more into it I want to read you a portion of the New York Times article on this topic.

10:08Medium friends are genuine friends. You share history such as the same alma mater, circumstances such as an employer or interest. Medium friends make you laugh, bring news, offer insights or expertise. But unlike the closest friends, medium friends test the limits of your time, love, and energy. There are only so many dinners in a week, so many people with whom you can be incessantly texting. Medium friends prove the lie in any naive attempt to be all things to all people. The tension embedded in medium friendship is this absence of clarity. The anxious silence around medium friendship are recognizable to anyone who has ever fibbed about the duration of a business trip to postpone a date in the calendar and to anyone who has heard, I'll call you too many times.

10:58The stakes increase in crisis or celebrations when the lack of clarity and any lopsidedness reveals itself. In a personal emergency, the inner circle knows to rush in while the acquaintances feel safe to commiserate from the sidelines. But the medium people orbit in a wobbly way, unsure of their obligations around how, when, or even whether to act. So this, in my opinion, is why I think so many people, and myself included struggle when it comes to a medium friend in our lives like we don't know how much to be there for them maybe we feel guilty when we're not there enough we're not sure what the right and the wrong way to handle things may be when the boundaries are unclear but at the same time this is the very thing that allows for so much joy to come from these type of friendships right?

11:54Like the lack of expectations, like I just referenced with my friend is the reason that you're able to be completely genuine in the way that you show up in this dynamic. And it's not fake and it's not, maybe it is a little surface level, but like maybe we need a little bit of that in our life. I think something that I think about a lot is like the expectations of medium friends is maybe where things get a little murky, right? Of like, okay, wait, so you're not my best friend and you're not in my inner circle, but we have been having a lot of good conversations. So like there can be like this levity and almost a sense of relief that comes with knowing a conversation with a medium friend is going to be light and easy.

12:36And that's what I'm saying about your best friends are your best friends. But sometimes I think it's nice to go and laugh and relax and like have a glass of wine or don't have a glass of wine, whatever you are into. But it's like just going and just like sharing lighthearted stories and not having to go so, so deep sometimes I weirdly think can be healthy, oddly. Something I also think is, and I don't know the actual answer, and I guess I'm posing it to all of us, which is, is it sometimes easier to be around a medium friend when we're going through a hard time? Of course, you're calling your best friend when you go through the breakup or when your parents divorced or when something traumatic happens in your life.

13:18Like, of course, you're calling your closest friend. But then after so many nights of commiserating and sitting there and being upset and whatever, maybe sometimes it is nice to have a medium friend where you're like, I need someone that doesn't know all of my shit. That we're close enough where like I can say I'm going through a tough time and I just want to have a fun time. and you guys can go to a dinner or you guys can go to a pottery class or you can go to a party or an event or you can go on a walk, you can go to a workout class and you kind of get to just like talk about your favorite restaurants that you tried that month or talk about some fun things that you saw online and it's like very casual.

13:54I don't know. I would love to know your guys' thoughts because I think as we get older, there's this emphasis, right, on, you know, keep your friends close and we don't have that much time to invest in a bunch of friendships. But I'm not saying that you're really investing that much time in medium friends. It's that once a month, or maybe it is you're seeing them once a week because you're in a workout class with them or you're doing something actively, but it's not requiring the lift that is required of true, true, true intense friendships where there is an actual understanding that like you need to show up for me similar to a romantic relationship, almost some people would look at their best friends as, right?

14:33In a medium friendship, I think a lot of the times your energy can be replenished by your time spent together. You typically don't feel drained or overwhelmed by someone who, again, not to be rude, but just is kind of this side character in your life. And that's okay because it's the same for them. And again, I'm not saying you don't care about this person. It's just a more casual, lovely, surfacy relationship that is doing exactly what you both want it to be doing. You both have a lot of other things going on in your lives and it doesn't really bother either of you, right? The emotional labor associated with these type of friendships is typically pretty low.

15:13I also read another article about this specific idea. It's called Why I Cherish My Superficial Friendships and You Should Too by Hazel Davis. Okay. And again, I'm actually interested to hear what you guys think about this because some of you may be like, absolutely not. I don't want any surface relationships in my life anymore. That's so fair. But I think a couple can kind of do you good. Okay, here's what she writes. Superficial friendships can provide all manner of benefits. You might do different things together and get new perspectives because you don't have a habit with this person. You get to be a free and easygoing person who can forget about your problems for the night and that person doesn't have a preconceived idea of who you are and what you think.

15:58You have a lighthearted, fun, and easy companion without baggage. by definition a low risk friendship means that very little is required of you the high stakes ones can entail arguments anger tears and heartbreak I'm not saying that there aren't friends for whom I would drop everything and of course I have some pals who I'm closer to than others but I certainly place as much value on both types of friends I don't know if I agree with that statement I definitely think I don't place the same value in my medium friends than my like lifers but I do place the same value I would say in terms of like what you're recognizing that each person is going to be bringing exactly their value and what you're expecting of them and that is a beautiful thing it's like tailoring your expectations per person and what where your relationship is right she says unlike romantic relationships we don't have conversations about friendship boundaries.

16:58So true. Instead, you will have to use social cues and behaviors to understand them. Essentially, anything that sits uncomfortably with you, you know that you are not at the same level friendship wise. So I think what the medium friend concept forces us to consider is that more often than not, friendships are supposed to be fun. And while deeper friendships are supposed to make us feel safe, seen, and loved, they also open us up to the possibility of feeling disappointment or resentment when that dynamic isn't equal, right? And since we don't talk about expectations, needs, or boundaries as much in friendships than we do romantic relationships, I think that we typically only have these conversations with a friend after a conflict or a fight.

17:45So that means day to day, it is on us to look inward at our friendships and be like, is this dynamic mutually supportive? When it comes to getting emotional needs met, does it feel equal? I have definitely experienced the type of friendship before where I essentially became the therapist to one of my close friends. And of course, when a friend is going through something, you should be there for them and open to talking through a problem with them. And I feel like that's all my childhood friends that I do. I go, then they go, then I go, then they go. And then we do like, okay, wait, it's a you night.

18:20Tell me everything. And then I'm going to be here and we're going to solve it. Okay, next night is my night. I'm going to tell you. And that's how it goes. But I do think sometimes it can come to a point where you cannot be the sole source of a friend's emotional well-being. And that usually happens from these really, really close friendships, right? Really close friendships. I don't think there's anything more beautiful, but then there's also nothing more delicate than friendships, right? Like romantic relationships are so complicated, but they're, I think they're way more straightforward than friendships because friendships, it's a lot.

18:56It's a lot of push and pull because you aren't living together. You're not sleeping together. Some people are, you know, elevating and growing in a different way that you're actually not privy to because within a romantic partner, you're with them all the time and you're like ebbing and flowing and you're with each other all the time. Friendship, it's like, oh wait, whoa, what happened? or again, sometimes your friend can change because of who they're dating. Like there's so many variables in friendships that you can't control, which is why they're 10 times more beautiful sometimes than romantic, but also can be really, really hard in moments to navigate those close friends.

19:27And when you become the sole source of your friend's emotional wellbeing, that is where things I think get really tricky. I had this one friend when I was living in New York where it started off, I would actually say as a medium friendship, which is kind of ironic it because I didn't know it was called that. And it was like, we were close. And then slowly, I became her therapist. And I was so happy to do that in the beginning. I was like, oh my gosh, like I am so happy that I can be here for you. And I was in a little bit more of a stable place in my life. And I think then all of a sudden, it crept from being a medium friendship to, oh my God, now I'm feeling like you're thinking we're super close because I'm here for you all the time, but you don't really know any of my stuff.

20:12And when I try to share my stuff, somehow it always turns back to, but your stuff is worse. And then I'm sitting here feeling kind of like drained and exhausted and resentful because you're getting so much more out of this relationship than me. And again, I'm so happy to be there for a friend. That is what friendship is. But when it is so imbalanced, you start to be like, wait, but I'm actually not a therapist. Wait, wait, wait, Jenny, I'm not a therapist, okay? And you're not paying me for this. I'm supposed to be your fucking friend. And now let's like have a margarita and ask me how my day was.

20:47And for the past 16 dinners, we've only talked about you. Like, what am I getting out of this? This feels really weird. And this is starting to feel icky. And I think when this dynamic of intense emotional labor becomes the core of the relationship, that is when a close friendship can become problematic in a way that a medium friendship is typically safe from.

21:27in order to be in a healthy friendship you both need to internally evaluate how much you're expecting the other person to take on emotionally a close friendship needs to be mutually supportive in order to maintain a horizontal rather than vertical relationship, which I will get into in a second because I've been reading a book and it's been so fascinating about vertical versus horizontal relationships. But first, I just wanna pose some questions to ask yourself that I also asked myself earlier this month. If you are sitting there kind of reflecting on the dynamic you have with a close friend and realizing it may be emotionally imbalanced, okay?

22:08after you hang out with this friend, how do you feel, right? Are you anxious, tired, maybe frustrated? Are you regularly making sacrifices in your own life to make sure you're able to best show up for them? Do you find that you don't get a chance to ask them for advice because their issues completely steamroll the conversation? And most importantly, do you feel like you can be your authentic self and say how you truly feel or are you constantly walking on eggshells? The goal, I think, in all relationships is for the dynamic to be horizontal rather than vertical. And so two weeks ago, you guys, I had no idea what the fuck that meant.

22:55I mean, I can gather what it would mean, but like what is happening? And so, guys, that's why I said we are going to be learning here on Call Her Daddy today. So I have been reading a book called The Courage to Be Disliked, which opened me up to the idea of what horizontal and vertical relationships are. And I think it's really interesting and it's an interesting way to view a friendship dynamic. So a horizontal relationship is basically a completely egalitarian relationship, which basically means both sides view each other to be of equal status. Right. And each one is able to show up authentically without worrying about being inferior or superior to the other.

23:38In a good friendship or a good romantic relationship also, or in really any good relationship, a horizontal dynamic means that each person makes their own choices and there's mutual respect and consideration and there is always reciprocity when it comes to support and encouragement. In a vertical relationship, one person is more needed than the other. OK. And so one person typically holds the power or the influence and then controls the outcome of the dynamic as a result. Right. So like in your life, the earliest, most straightforward example would be like a boss in an employee relationship. But something that's more leaning towards unhealthy in a vertical relationship would be a friendship.

24:29Like, why would one friend have more power over the other? That doesn't make sense. Right. And so in vertical friendships, which I urge you because, guys, I've been doing this in my life and I'm like, oh, my God, is this a vertical or a horizontal relationship? And Matt is like, OK, enough. Like, let's talk about that fucking TV show you were watching. I'm like, you never want to know about my reality shows. And he's like, you can't sit here and go through every single relationship in your life right now, Alex. But I'm like becoming obsessed because I want to evaluate truly like to the core what I'm fascinated.

25:03I'm like, what, where do each of my relationships stand? It's kind of fucking fascinating, right? And so in vertical friendships, one person tends to be benefiting more than the other. So you would think the person that's giving the advice is like, oh, you're wiser and you're this, so you're on top. No, it's the weaponized incompetence. And I'm not saying people are doing this on purpose, but it's like, does your friend always vent to you nonstop, but never ask you what's going on? Are their problems always projected to be bigger or worse or more important than yours? AKA you're in a vertical relationship with your friend because they deem themselves and their life and their priorities and their issues above yours.

25:49and then do they guilt trip you when you aren't perfectly there for them like are their expectations on you constantly increasing because when you are in a vertical relationship with a friend you then feel like oh it's almost becomes like codependent right because you're like wait but they're going through this and how now am I going to break the cycle where I'm like hey Barbara like I gotta get some words out girl like I know now about your fucked up brother in rehab and I feel horrible for you, but I know so much about that. And I know your sister who married the asshole that now it's turned like verbally abusive, which is horrible.

26:27And I know your mother has been hitting the bottle, horrible. And I know you love your dad, you lucky bitch. And there's so much going on here, but like, do you even know if I have a sibling? And they're like, but we're going to get to that. Listen to me. So the other night and you're like oh my god Barbara Barbara Barbara shut the fuck up you're like Barbara I would love to know Barbara do you know my last name Barbara she's like yes only because you're on as my emergency contact like it somehow always flows back to them you're like I'm your emergency contact Barbara Barbara shut the fuck up it can literally start to drive you insane where like you feel like oh my god I'm beholden to this person and then they also make you feel like a bad person if you try to impose like any semblance of equality in the relationship and you're like how did I get to this point how did I get to this point where I'm literally just this person's therapist and anytime that I try to actually talk about my life they make me feel like I'm a bad person for trying to talk about my stuff because their stuff is so much more important to me guys that is not what a friendship should be there are moments when your friend needs to be all-consuming and have you listen because at life one friend is going to be way more in it than the other and it ebbs and flows yes but if this is a constant you need to get the fuck out you are craving horizontal friendships equal friendships right horizontal friendships you're able to actually show up authentically for one another because you're not dancing around these power imbalances there's no forcing each other to fit into certain beneficial boxes in each other's lives because the expectations are aligned and a lot of times and this is something that I wish I could do an episode on but this is not something really that can be taught which is most of the problems in the world just come down to self-awareness and you can't really teach self-awareness so a lot of times if you're finding yourself in these dynamics you can try and you can try and you can try and you can push as much as you want to push to try to get out of it not being an equal dynamic and try to get it to like a fair standing with a friend but after a few attempts I hate to admit it, but that probably means that relationship is so molded and grounded in what it is and its patterns.

28:40And also that person is getting exactly what they want out of that relationship that they actually wouldn't be interested in an equal friendship with you, right? Like it takes knowing both how you want someone to show up for you and what your limits are for someone else. I just, and someone else, sorry, I just had a list, someone else. And both of those things take the inner work and the reflection to figure that out. Setting the boundaries are so necessary in order to maintain a horizontal friendship. And it might occasionally end with like being disliked by someone. And you may even lose a friend.

29:25But you need to reframe that and realize that this means that your parameters are protecting you from something really unhealthy. Like if you lose a friend because they can't handle the friendship being an equal balanced dynamic, then yeah, then it probably means that it's not serving for you to have that person in your life. Because guess what? It means probably that you're just serving that friend and they're never serving you. They're never helping you out. They're never giving you the amount of effort that you're giving them. And you being scared to speak up or end the friendship only furthers the point.