Can Israel Learn the Lesson of 70 AD? - with Gidi Dar and Rabbi David Stav

0:00Over the years, ARK Media has become where people go to actually understand Israel and the Jewish world. Our subscribers make that possible. Join us at ARK Media.org. And to our subscribers, thank you.

0:18You are listening to an ARK Media podcast. We need to be hysterical. I think now is the time to panic. We have one advantage on the Jews 2 ,000 years ago. we saw what happened to them. So we might learn from that because many times people who see the films ask me, why didn't they stop at all kinds of crossroads? And I say, because they didn't believe it's going to go so far so quick. Now talking to American Jewry, but it applies to everybody, urging world Jewry to strengthen the voices in Israel that seek for dialogue, that urge for inclusiveness and not to help and not to invite the voices that are divisive, the voices that put Israel in the edge from the right or from the left.

1:06The Israeli society needs to recover from its injuries in the last couple of years. And a part of our responsibility is to help to strengthen the voices. And I encourage the American jury to help these forces.

1:31It's 8 a.m. on Monday, September 14th here in New York City. It's 3 p.m. in Israel, where Israel's election campaign is kicking into high gear. Before today's episode, a quick housekeeping note. On Thursday, October 22nd, just five days ahead of the Israeli elections, Call Me Back will hold a live taping at the Stryker Center in New York City, where I'll sit down with Dan Shapiro, Dahlia Scheinlin, and Brett Stevens to discuss what's at stake in Israel's 2026 election and what its results will mean for the U.S.-Israel relationship. Tickets have gone on sale, so if you want to join us, please follow the link in the episode description.

2:10Now on to today's episode. Nearly 2 ,000 years ago, in the year 70, Jerusalem fell. The Romans destroyed the Second Temple and ended Jewish sovereignty for many, many generations who dispersed around the world. But in Jewish memory, the story of 70 AD has never really been about Rome. It's mostly about what happened inside Jerusalem before the Romans broke through its walls. As Jewish factions turned on one another, an internal conflict consumed a society facing an existential enemy. That history is the subject of Legend of Destruction, a remarkable animated film by Israeli filmmaker Giddi Dar.

2:51Told through thousands of individually painted images and featuring the voices of Oscar Isaac, Evangeline Lilly, Elliot Gould, and Billy Zane, the film has just been released on major streaming platforms. The film asks an uncomfortable question, what happens when political disagreement turns into blind hatred? It's a question that feels particularly urgent in Israel today as the country heads towards an election after years of political upheaval, October 7th, war, and deep divisions over religion, democracy, the military, who serves, the courts, and Israel's future. History rarely repeats itself neatly, but many Israelis are asking, what are the lessons that Israelis should take from that history, and where does the analogy break down?

3:40My guests, filmmaker Giddy Dar and Rabbi David Stav, come from very different parts of Israeli society. Giddy comes from Israel's liberal world, more secular world, and Rabbi Stav is a leading voice in the religious Zionist community. But they share a deep concern about where these divisions can lead. One note before we begin. Call Me Back received rare and exclusive permission to include several extended scenes from Legend of Destruction in this episode. So I strongly recommend watching this conversation on our YouTube channel rather than just listening to it. You can find a link in our YouTube channel in the show notes below.

4:18My conversation with Giddi Dar and Rabbi David Stav right after this short message. This episode of Call Me Back is brought to you by the Jewish Communal Fund, JCF. The high holidays are a time to reflect on what matters most, including the impact we hope to make in the year ahead. For 54 years, JCF has helped individuals and families put their values into action through thoughtful philanthropy. As the nation's leading Jewish donor-advised fund, JCF empowers donors to give more strategically, maximize charitable tax savings and make a powerful difference with their giving. Through financial expertise, operational excellence, and highly personalized service, JCF makes it easier to support the causes and communities that matter most.

5:08Learn more at jcfny.org or follow the link in the episode description. Jewish Communal Fund, strategic at giving powerful impact.

5:23Giddi Dar, welcome to Call Me Back. Rabbi Stav, welcome back to the podcast. It's good to have both of you with me, joining me from Israel. Thank you for inviting me. Pleasure to be here. Giddi, let me start with you. First off, congratulations on the English release of your film, Legend of Destruction. The animation, I must say, looks, when I was viewing the film, like a series of Renaissance paintings, and the voice acting by Oscar Isaac and Evangeline Lilly was really remarkable. What drew you to this project and really to this tragic story? And how would you describe this film to those who haven't seen the Hebrew version?

6:01So I'll start with the description of the film. So the film talks about a constituting moment in Jewish history, probably the history of the world as well, different of Christianity too. And it tells the story of the big revolt of the Jews against the Romans, starting in the year 66, which deteriorated into a very dark and crazy civil war, War of Brothers, and ended in the destruction of the temple in the year 70. So the main story is about the War of Brothers and how it developed and how it led to the destruction. So it's a pretty dark movie. And look, how did I get to it? You know, when I was 23, when I was a young filmmaker, I went to live in New York for a year.

6:44And when you live in Israel, you don't see those things. But when I was there, suddenly I was looking at all the great directors that I was admiring. Martin Scorsese, Efrad Furt Coppola, all these guys. And I saw one big difference between them and me, beside the quality, you know, how great they are. That they were modern liberal filmmakers, but living in a continuous culture. Meaning you can go back and back. And then eventually you go from liberal society to Christian society. So you have the whole past as part of their life, part of their culture. And, you know, Taxi Driver is a Christian odyssey.

7:17And The Godfather is all about Christianity too. For me, as a filmmaker and as a young Israeli, it was very hard to connect with my past, with my narrative. Because the Zionists who started this country denounced it and burned the bridge behind them because they did not want to be identified anymore as diaspora Jews. meaning they simply threw this away, this whole 2 ,000 years with everything included in it. And I have no access to it, and the Israelis have no access to it. And I think it's a big mission to overcome this burned bridge, to build it again, because we must connect to our own narrative.

7:54And I felt that my mission as a filmmaker should be to build the bridge again, not in order to become religious, but in order to connect to the big narratives and big mythology of the Jewish people, of my people, in order to be able to continue forward to the next level. That's how I got into the subject of the Jewish story. Because down deep in the Zionist culture, there is a rejection of our past, the Jewish diaspora past. And they threw everything. They threw the baby with the water, Talmud, everything was gone. We have absolutely no access to it. And I think Legend of Destruction is some kind of a climax of my own work in this respect, talking about the most, maybe the most important event in the Jewish history.

8:36And also using the Talmudic legends, meaning my own people's storytelling style. So that's how I got to it. So the film begins with the following context, and I'm quoting here from the film. This is the setup. 2 ,000 years ago, Judea is under the rule of the Roman Empire. The Holy Temple in Jerusalem is the center of spiritual life for the Jewish people. But the temple has become rife with corruption. Taxation is oppressive and the masses are exploited by the high priesthood, the Jewish aristocracy, and the Roman occupiers. Jewish rebel groups are ready to launch a rebellion. Jerusalem is on the verge of explosion.

9:13Rabbi Stav now. I just gave this setup from the film. So what are the relations between the main groups here that I just mentioned? The Romans, the Jewish elite, everyday Judeans, and the Jewish zealots. What connected me to that story and what connected me to that film is the reality of our current life and how the structure of our society today in Israel, and maybe in the entire Jewish world, reminds me a lot of components of the Jewish society in Judea and Jerusalem a few years before the destructions. The Romans are the empire. They control a huge part of the world. And Palestine, the land of Israel, is one of the territories that they control, which was considered by them one of the most problematic places because they knew that the Jews actually are different.

10:04Unlike the Hellenist world in that time, that most of the people were ready to convert. In the Jewish people, in the Jewish group, most of the people, most of the regular people, were not ready to cooperate with the changing rituals along kids go to the stadiums or to the gymnastic classes or other things that the Romans brought to the land of Israel, the Jewish people did not cooperate with that, except for one group, which was basically the rich group, which belonged to the aristocracy of the Jewish people. A big part of them were the grand priest families. It's not only the grand priest, it's the families, the people that had the control of the temple.

10:49The control could be perceived today just as a religious center. But it will not be accurate to describe it this way. Because when you get taxes from all the Jews that bring the donations and contributions to the temple in order to repaint the scenes, especially towards the high holidays, it's not only a place of prey. It's a place of a lot of political and financial power. Each priest bought his being priests from the Romans and from the Greece before that, paying a lot of money in order to become that priest. Which means that usually speaking, the grand priests were very close to the Romans because as a part of the job, they had to buy it from the sovereignty, from the governor, who was usually a Roman.

11:37So they were basically connected to the establishment, to the Roman establishment, and didn't really care about values, didn't really care about morality, didn't really care about the behavior of the Romans towards the Jews because they were deeply connected to them. The regular people, there were regular Jews that mostly were poor, followed the rabbis that didn't like the priest, most of them, but most of them did not have any intention to rebel because they accepted upon themselves the decree of God that the Romans should control their lives in the land of Israel. There was a group that could not bear the corruption of the priests, could not bear the terrible behavior of the Romans to our Jews, the heavy taxes and other behaviors.

12:30Sometimes decrees against Jews didn't allow them to practice different Jewish practices. And they said to themselves, and they started to gather groups, and the movie, the film describes this, how more and more groups gathered around Jerusalem saying we cannot continue allowing the Romans to disgrace the name of God. We cannot allow ourselves to let our values to be disgraced by the Romans or by the priests. And just because we want to protect the temple. God prefers, would rather have people of values and behave according to the values, rather than have people that are doing Jewish rituals and are performing or observing commands, but actually losing and missing all the deep content that stand behind these commands of God.

13:21But what occurred between Jews, as one of the rabbis described in his book 120 years ago, he says, in that time, every Jew felt that if somebody believes a bit different, he's already a traitor, he's already an atheist, although just a bit shifted from our way of looking at things. Each one called his friend a traitor or atheist. Now that we've set that up, let's watch the scene when the revolt against the Romans breaks out. Remember, my sons, when we devote ourselves to doing God's will, no nation can rule us. But when we fail to do God's will, he delivers us to the lowliest of people. What's going on outside?

14:12People are fleeing! Rabbi! Roman soldiers! What is it? Roman soldiers! Let's go out and help them! No one leaves his study hall! Shut the windows! Shut the doors! God will receive you! Return to your studies! Return to our studies? Was this your will? That we stand idly by while our brother's blood is spilled? They blocked the alleyway!

14:58Oh, my God.

15:18No! Stop! Please.

15:30I was paralyzed by fear. I couldn't move.

15:38Then I remembered. There was not a man in sight. Mercy. No! Not a man. Not a man.

15:54Jewish dog!

16:08Who is that man?

16:20so giddy after this scene the main character ben batik joins the zealots why was the message their message the zealots message so compelling to ordinary judaians the main thing about the zealots is it's actually they are truth seekers i mean they look for the truth being a zealot is not automatically a bad thing i mean abraham was a zealot moses was a zealot you know there was one insight that once I understood it, it really made a turning point for me in the writing. And that was understanding the general thing that everybody around the whole world at that time was pagan. Besides the Jews, we believed in one God.

16:57And in paganism, the major force in the world is destiny. It's actually a very interesting concept because it says like if you were born an ant, then you're an ant. If you were born a lion, you're a lion. If you were born a dancing oar, then you're a dancing oar, and you're not going to become giddy and vice versa. and your whole destiny is stemming out of this. That's very smart. There is another implication to this though, that it means there will be no social mobility. If you were born rich, it's your destiny. If you were born poor, it's your destiny. There is no issue of justice. You can still see it in India and the Kastas today.

17:30Now, Judaism was different. God created the world. God has endless power and God wants justice. That's a very important concept. So the time of the second temple is characterized in deep philosophy of justice, of social justice, and at the same time, a growing corruption. So what Rabbi Stav described before, the money machine of the temple and the super, super rich Jews cooperating with the Romans, leaving the rest in poverty, ended up in those small groups of zealots who are seeking justice and to stand in front of the Romans and also the rich Jews. And they saw them as traitors, cooperated with the occupier.

18:11So they offered justice. So, of course, the masses identified with them to a certain degree. They were also afraid from their result because the elders, the sages, they had to do politics. They had no choice. But the youngers, they did not want to do politics. They said, if God can do whatever he wants and you trust him and he's stronger than Rome, then just do what you want. What you need to do, because there will be no salvation, there will be no justice, because justice is a theological concept. It's not just a social concept. And deep down, the problem with the zealots is not what their ideas are, it's how far they were willing to go for their ideas.

18:47How much blood are they willing to spill for it? And are they willing to spill the blood of their own brothers if needed? And yes, the answer was yes. They were willing to do that too. You can see in the scene that you just showed that he's afraid to interfere. And then at that moment he said, I got to do it. Otherwise I will not be a man. I will not do what God wants me to do. And I wanted you to identify with him. And you see at a later stage, you will do some terrible stuff. And then I want you to be as an audience as part of this, complicit, until you say, wait a minute, we went too far. Okay.

19:18So who are the zealots actually fighting at this stage? At the beginning, it's a social-economical war, internal civil war. It's the poor against the rich. But the rich are massacred very quickly. Moderate rich, high priests, and the other are trying to run away. Many are fleeing the city. And those who stays are being quiet. And then very quickly, it deteriorates into a war between one group of zealots to another group of zealots. Like we see many times in modern time also with radical groups in Arab countries, and, you know, they end up fighting each other, you know, on small arguments. From a certain stage, it's becoming a war of zealots fighting other zealots.

19:56A full-out, full-blown civil war. With no control. Nobody can stop it now. Okay. So after most of the moderates flee Jerusalem, John of Giscala locks down the city in preparation for the Roman attack. Now, he plans to fight his way to a deal with the Romans to save Jerusalem. Bar-Giora wants to fight to the end, and a full-blown civil war erupts inside the city between two groups of Jewish zealots. One group that's led by John barricades inside the Temple Mount, and the other, led by Bar-Giora, besieged them from the outside. So I want to watch another scene. My brave brothers! Margura and his thugs will never be able to break through the walls of the Temple Mount.

20:44We have enough food to last a siege of many years. As long as we keep sacrificing to God, he will keep us and protect us from our enemies. Priests, continue with the Lord's service.

21:19God of Israel, hear my call. Listen to my plea. Accept my gifts. as daily offerings, each according to its law. So you have commanded us. So may it be.

21:44If they only had opened the gates. We had no choice, Bargyra. Jon wants to make a pact with the Romans. Traitor. When the Romans attack us, he'll attack from behind. from the temple. Exactly. We must force them out of the Temple Mount. They cling to the horns of the altar. They know we would never attack the Temple Mount directly. They are mistaken. What? We will attack the Temple Mount. You'd attack the Temple Mount? You said it yourself. He won't hesitate to betray us. It's the house of God. He will never forgive this transgression. No, Ben Batik. The God of Israel cares not about a house, nor does he care about sacrifices.

22:34He cares about justice, truth, compassion. Ben Batik, the Lord of Israel has bestowed a holy mission upon us. I need you by my side.

22:52But it's a holy place. If we don't force them out now, the temple will be destroyed once the Romans arrive. Now! Fire! On!

23:12With force! Hold it down! On! On!

23:20Grab the pole! Help me! Keep sacrificing! We can't! The whites! Sing! Sing!

23:38They hit the sanctuary!

23:50We've blocked all the roads. Jerusalem is cut off. The army is ready to move.

23:59Father, the time has come to attack. There's no reason to rush. The Jews are slaughtering each other, making our job easier. will hold off on the attack. Okay, Rabbi Stav, just picking up from this scene, at this point, the Jews are basically doing the work for the Romans and destroying the temple themselves. And John believes that as long as the sacrifices continue, God will protect Jerusalem. But Bar Giora claims that the God of truth doesn't care about the temple or the sacrifices. He cares about justice. So explain this distinction for us. Well, first of all, I must express my emotions. I mean, I don't see it for the first time, this film, and I almost started to cry when I saw the last scene.

24:47What we have seen, actually, is maybe one of the most important moments in Jewish history when two approaches actually come to a clash. One believes that what really God cares about is His temple, and He will always protect the temple without any distinction about our behavior. By the way, the prophet Jeremiah describes this in one of his very, very famous expressions about the first temple. Those who yell, hey, HaLashem, the house of God, the house of God, the house of God, nothing will happen to us because we are secured, because God will never allow his enemies to destroy the temple. Versus the other approach that says, you don't understand, you missed the whole issue.

25:39The house of God is not the house of God. God is present all over the world. God wants to be with us when he feels that we behave in a proper way. When we move to our justice, when we try to guide our lives based on his rules, social justice, proper behavior to the orphan, to the poor, to the convert, etc., etc. And when we don't behave ourselves, there is no meaning to that building. There is no meaning to the sacrifice. As the prophet describes, all your sacrifices and all your holidays, when these rituals are not coming along with moral behavior, they are meaningless. And these are actually two approaches that came to a clash towards the end of the Second Temple.

26:27Well, Kitty, as you were writing this, did you relate with one camp more than the other? Look, the slogan of the movie is they were all right all the way to hell. Everybody. So basically every fraction, every strand of the Jews at that time had their own perspective. And the problem was that they were not willing to compromise. They were insisting on being correct, on defeating the other concepts. And eventually they all led themselves to destruction. The only thing I can say, as I was working so many years on this project, that the elite, the rich, the establishment, they were responsible for the rest.

27:05and they didn't behave according to their responsibility. And they left them and they shoved them to the corner. And the result was that the zealots fought back. So I guess if I would have been a young man 2 ,000 years ago, I would probably go with the zealots. I'm not saying they did the right thing, but I would intuitively identify with them more and with their naivety, naivete, and their desire to get to the truth of the matter. Of course, they brought the destruction like everybody else. I don't think more than anybody else. We'll be right back after this short break.

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28:40And we're back with Gedidah and Rabbi David Stav. I want to set up the next clip we're going to show here. The two factions end up burning each other's food supplies, which had been stored in anticipation of the Roman siege, and a devastating hunger falls on the city. And the residents, if you will, they begin to see the destruction that they have brought upon themselves. Rabbi Ben Zakkai understands that God has decreed Jerusalem to be destroyed by the Romans. And his mission becomes to save the Torah. Will Jerusalem be destroyed? You concern yourself with the rocks and trees while I worry about the oral law so that it is not lost.

29:26My son, I need your help. My help? With what? You must act. Act? For the sake of our holy Torah. To save it. So that it is not, God forbid, forgotten. I don't understand. What do I have to do? You must help me leave the city. What? Not that. No. Good nephew. Bak Yorah gave orders that no one may leave the city except for the dead. Speak to him. He listens to you. No, Bargyura won't listen to me.

30:14I'll do it. But you must do exactly as I tell you. Act like you are ill, and people will come to visit you until the rumor starts to spread Benzakai is dying. Then, I'll place dead vermin in your bed. And everyone will say, Rabbi Benzakai is dead. His corpse is beginning to stink. Your students will come to bear your coffin beyond the walls. May God protect you, Rabbi Benzakai. Hold! Stop, brothers! Open the gate! The great rabbi Ben-Zakai has left us! Not before we stab the coffin to confirm the rabbi is really dead. You want to stab the corpse? Do you want it said that zealots killed rabbi Ben-Zakai?

31:12He's dead! I saw it with my own eyes! Don't you believe me? Blessed be the truth. The greatest of sages has left this cursed world! Show respect for the Torah! Open the gate! I trust you, Ben-Bate. Open the gate! Open the gate! Open the gate! Open the gate!

31:36They're opening the gate. Blessings upon you, Ben-Bedith. May God forgive you for all your sins. Uncle, you didn't answer me. What, my son? Will Jerusalem be destroyed? It has been decreed. Jerusalem will be destroyed.

32:10So Rabbi Stav, who is Ben Zakai first? And then how do you relate to him as a rabbi? Well, Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakai was one of the greatest rabbis in that time in Jerusalem. him. And as we understand, although the historians are not fully agree with that, he didn't like the whole revolt. He believed that rebel against the Romans should not be consisted of burning one other's food and others' stores of food. And he didn't like the entire concept of the rebel. And for us, for me as a rabbi, is a symbol of two things. A, is a symbol of a courageous rabbinic behavior that understands that if he has a position against the spirit that leads the street and you cannot fight against it, you should take your own decisions and do whatever you believe you should do.

33:07That's number one. But more important than that, he is the one that actually saved the Jewish oral Torah, actually the Torah that we all, all the observant Jews observed today. And actually, he has the direct responsibility for the Torah's survival, because actually what he was doing after the destruction of the temple, he needed to fit the behaviors, the Jewish rituals that were all connected to the temple, adapt them to the new era of Jewish history, and to see how you could do things without the presence of the temple. For instance, to pray instead of bringing sacrifices, to do things that usually people were used to do only in the temple.

33:53And all of a sudden you say to yourself, wait a minute, you cannot go to Jerusalem. That doesn't mean that you don't have a synagogue, you don't have a shul. And actually what he was doing to the Jewish life is actually to shift the Torah and the observance of the commands of Torah from the time where there is a central place like Jerusalem and the temple to see how you prepare the Jewish people to go to the diaspora and to make every Jewish community a center for Jewish life so that it will last and we'll be able to deliver the contents and the values to their descendants into the next generation.

34:32And actually, I dare to say that we are all here today existing thanks to the behavior of Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakat. Okay, so I want to fast forward to the final act of the film. The Romans begin their attack on Jerusalem, and only then do the factions come to terms with the destructive nature of what they've done, of their deeds. And then, once they come to terms with that, they finally unite in tragedy. I want to play that scene, and then Gideon, I have a question for you on the other side of that. The barriers have fallen.

35:10Blessed be his glory today, forever and ever. We stand before you. Blessed be his glory today, forever and ever. Ready to sacrifice our bodies for you. Blessed be his glory today, forever and ever.

35:3318

35:52Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire! Set! Take me! Fire! Fire! Okay.

36:20Ta en 2000 Ba

36:33Is We no longer feared death. We were like one man with one heart for your sake.

36:54Okay, so Gideon, when you look at the year 70 AD and you look at Israel today, And obviously this is a particularly raw time in Israel, or let's just say tense time, where the intensity of emotions are high heading into an election. What is the parallel, if any, that genuinely frightens you? And then where do those two stories actually diverge? Because I hear from Israelis both perspectives. I hear comparisons, parallels to the focus, the period that's the focus of your film. And then I also hear there are problems. Things are polarizing, but we don't need to be hysterical. Where are you in all of this?

37:31We need to be hysterical. I think now is the time to panic. Now, for a while now, we have one advantage on the Jews 2 ,000 years ago. We saw what happened to them. So we might learn from that because many times people who see the films ask me, why didn't they stop at all kind of crossroads? And I say, because they didn't believe it's going to go so far so quick. And once you enter this slippery slope, there is a moment you can go back and it can be very, very fast. So you cannot take it for granted. that nothing's going to happen. Now, I want to say something general where it does connect very much, I think.

38:05The people of Israel, the Jews, never had a kingdom more than three generations, 75 years, 80 at the most. They kind of have this gene of self-destruction, self-extermination after 80 years. And we are actually right there now in Israel at this stage. And if you look at Israel, what happened in Israel? You have the forefathers of the country, the pioneers. They had an amazing dream, an amazing vision. They had absolutely no material, nothing. They were against all odds, Holocaust, you name it. We all know this. And they succeeded to get this dream into action and to start what would become, I believe, the biggest political miracle definitely in modern time.

38:45And the second generation continued their work and built an empire from Israel, a mini empire. Language, culture, science, technology, army, you name it. and the dream was fulfilled on steroids much more than the pioneers ever imagined. And when a dream is fulfilled, we're in a very risky moment because what is your dream now? And like a person cannot really be without a dream, also a nation cannot be without a dream. And I think with an Israeli nation, it's 10 times more important. And our generation is living in a fulfilled dream. And we also felt before October 7th that we are done with strategic enemies.

39:25We are so strong. I mean, there are enemies, but they cannot destroy us. And that's what we thought, at least. And maybe it's time to start fighting each other. And that's what we saw until October 7th. We got into a very, very risky moment. I don't care what people say. I told you it was very risky. Actually, in November, there was supposed to be something in the court that, like, one shot you need for that. One shot, one stabbing, and that's it. And you're on a slippery slope. I know it sounds crazy what I'm about to say, but in a way, October 7th saved us from our worst enemy, which is ourselves, our most cunning enemy that knows exactly where we're going to go.

40:02And it's very hard to fight this enemy. There is a scene in the movie where the general Vespasian, the big general, telling him the Jews are in civil war. We should attack them. They're weak. And he mocked them and said, what are you talking about? Once we're near Jerusalem, the walls of Jerusalem, they're going to unite. We're waiting. And he waited for two years. In these two years, he became himself the Caesar himself, and he sent his son Titus after two years to finish the job, literally to collect the bodies. Now, Sinoir was not that smart. I mean, I looked at him as, you know, Arabs are, or the Bedouins at least, he's not a Bedouin, but are known for their patience.

40:38They've been waiting for 75 years. Couldn't you wait two more years and let us destroy each other? He had no patience. He wasn't that smart. On October 7th, we're very used to unite in danger, the Israelis. So a right-wing, messianic, modern orthodox ran into the fire with a liberalist, a leftist liberalist from Tel Aviv. And they fought together shoulder to shoulder. And we had a chance not to go there. And now, in those elections, and it's a very crucial moment, first of all, to see how bleeding the elections are going to be, how terrible they're going to go as we near them. Because the problem is everybody has their opinion, as we said before, and their perspective.

41:15Because democracy, apparently, is not as strong as we thought. You know, 20 years ago, when we looked at democracy, it seemed like the most stabilized, steady, solid form of government. Right now, I think we look around all Western democracy, we feel that they're like dust in the wind. They're very fragile. Because apparently, if you want to maintain democracy, everybody has to want it and have to be willing to compromise and to reach out to their rivals. And are we going to be able to do that? Because if not, we're in a serious problem. Rabbi Stav, you and Giddy come from very different slices of Israeli life, from very different parts of Israeli society.

41:51What is your community within Israel, call it your own camp, misunderstand about the world within Israel that Giddy comes from? You know, when we established Tzua 30 years ago, when I came to speak to my friends about the... This is your organization, just so our listeners understand. Yeah, my organization. And about the need to establish that organization after the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, people asked me, what's the problem of the secular people? And I started to describe what kind of a via dolorosa they have to go through when they come to get married in the rabbinate, an experience that most modern Orthodox people did not go through because they have no problems.

42:31They have the rabbis that perform for them the weddings. It took them a long time to understand that there is a pain in the other side. And I think what occurred to the Israeli society, to my part, to my tribe, during the judicial reform that they didn't believe that the other tribe is really afraid of them, is really concerned of them. I remember myself speaking to one of the leaders of the religious Zionist party saying to him, don't you understand that if you'll continue this way, it was in the middle of the judicial reform, you will cause hundreds of thousands of secular Israelis to leave the country?

43:09Is that what you want? Forget now if you are right or wrong, But do you want them to leave? Do you want to stay here alone with the Haredi tribe? And that's the way you want to run the country? And it didn't mean to be said, it's not, it's just they pretend themselves. They really know that there is no threat on democracy. And I said to him, no, they are really concerned, not because they are concerned. I'm also concerned in the way you try to defeat them. They get the impression that you want to diminish them. Could be that they are wrong in their interpretation. but that's what they are concerned about.

43:43Try to talk to them, try to satisfy them, at least try to compromise, as Gideon said. I think that what we missed is that we had our parties, our leaders run politics of defeating instead of politics of trying to get understanding and agreement among most of the society. I don't expect 90 % of the people to agree upon anything, but I do expect that the government, whether it's from the right or from the left, should take decisions accepted by at least 60, 70 percent, the mainstream of the Israeli Zionist society. And my group, my leadership, did not understand that, unfortunately. So do you think both sides have a responsibility in what you're describing for lowering the temperature in these weeks leading up to the election?

44:30Yes, don't misunderstand me. When Yitzhak Rabin accepts the agreements of Oslo based on a coincidental majority, votes from a few small parties, as we said that he bought one of them Mitsubishi and took tremendous decisions of Oslo agreements based on a majority of 61. Rabin, in the early 90s, moving forward to the two-state solution, the recognition of the PLO, shaking hands with Yasser Arafat on the White House lawn. Based on a majority of 61. Of one person, a majority of one person. So your point is, These were historically radical moves the prime minister was making, meaning radical in terms of completely unprecedented.

45:10And he was doing it without what you're saying, without a real mandate. Exactly. What I'm saying is that the responsibility of both groups is to understand as matter of the consequences that we could learn from previous history of ourselves. Don't take decisions, don't take advantage of a coincidental majority and say, well, I'm going to defeat the other side. Don't try to defeat. You don't have to agree with everybody. Try to create a kind of a common denominator as loud, as broad as possible. For me, the major question down deep for all of us is a question of identity. Who are we? Who are the Israelis?

45:45Now, after we build the place, we build the home, we build. Now, once we have to decide that, that's very important, you know, and very hard also. And can create a lot of problems. But one thing we can take from our culture is that the Jewish culture is an argumentative culture, especially in the Talmud. Now, there are two kinds of arguments. One, in the sake of heaven, meaning in the sense of development and understanding of all sides, peaceful argument. And one of them, like Rabbi Stav said, is when I want to defeat you with my argument and to shut down your argument. And that's never going to work.

46:19That's going to bring violence. And the question is, will we be willing and able to get into that situation that we have a dialogue that is not in order to defeat each other? And because, as you can see in the election, surely nobody's going to win in a big number. So it has to be in the prime minister, like what the left felt, for example, is that Bibi, for example, or the right-wing government is just for the right wing. And they're not the government of everybody. So you run the election, but then at the end of the day, you have to be the government of everybody. So we're in a risky situation right now, I think.

46:53But if we cross this crossroad well, we're on the way to big development, which will take time, but that's the way I say it. My closing question is for both of you, but I'll start with you, Giddy, just picking up on what you said a moment ago. For us Jews in the diaspora, because I feel like everything you just said, you're speaking to your fellow Israelis. Okay, but I'm not Israeli, and most of the Call Me Back audience is not Israeli. So what do you want us to know and feel as Israel is in this current moment and headed into this election? First, I would hope you care about us. We definitely do.

47:25We spend a lot of time talking about Israel and issues within Israel, and we have a big audience around the world that is engaged, which means people care. I agree. I agree. Most people care very much. And the second thing is, maybe we can learn from you. Because I think, as I started, that we burned the bridge in Israel, and we disconnected from our heritage and from our mythology or narrative. I think you guys are much more connected because you don't have a state. So for you, a part of your identity is still holding to this. and I would love us to be a bit more connected to this in order to create some new things.

47:58So in a way, maybe we should learn this from you. The last thing is, I believe that narratives are everything and movies create narratives, for example. That's my job, to create narratives in our environment of narratives, part of our big narrative. And when I look at diaspora Jews and the youngs who are disappearing and losing it, maybe you guys should also, or together, create those narratives, develop new narratives of Judaism of the people of Israel, which is actually the term I prefer, because we're all one big people, that will help people connect because what we connect to is stories, good stories.

48:32Rabbi Stav, what's your response to that? I agree to everything Gideon said, but I would ask, first of all, we appreciate a lot the involvement of world Jewry and especially the American Jewry. And we have seen it. And I think the Israeli society has discovered this after October 7th, when we saw the American Jews is sending us helmets and ceramic vests and rounds and whatnot, and helping the hostages and the soldiers. No, no question about the involvement and the solidarity and connection. But I think that we could expect from the world Jewry more than that. I think that they are responsible with us together to the continuity of the state of Israel.

49:13And a part of this is strengthening the narrative that if we will not be together, we will not survive. And I think that requires from now talking to American Jewry, but it applies to everybody, urging world Jewry to strengthen the voices in Israel that seek for dialogue, that urge for inclusiveness and not to help and not to invite the voices that are divisive, the voices that put Israel in the edge from the right or from the left. The Israeli society needs to recover from its injuries in the last couple of years. And a part of our responsibility is to help to strengthen the voices. It applies to all parties and to all groups.

49:59There are parties that are divisive and there are groups that are trying to unify the positive forces in the Israeli society. And I encourage the American jury to help these forces. Beautiful. Okay. Okay. Rabbi Stav is the chief rabbi of the city of Shulham, the chairman of the Tzohar organization, and he serves as a rabbi for the Ezra Youth Movement. Thank you for joining us, Rabbi. And Giddi Dar is an Israeli film director and co-screenwriter of Legend of Destruction. Some of the clips we previewed today, an animated historical drama. Thank you to you, Giddi. I'm honored. Thank you very much.

50:34And once again, I urge our audience to please follow us on YouTube in order to see the clips. If you were listening to this on audio, great. But I'm just telling you, the visual experience is so incredibly powerful. Even if it means you're consuming it again, just so you can see these clips, you'll get a quick sense for the magic of this film. And I guess most importantly, I would urge our listeners and our viewers to follow the links in our show notes and run to your streamer. Do not walk. Run to your streamer to see this extraordinary film. So thank you, Giddy, for being with us and for this conversation and for this incredible contribution through this film.

51:10Thank you very, very much for calling me back. And I'm very, very honored. Thank you. And a good, blessed year. In the spirit of this film, let's just maybe blessings, Rabbi, for a quiet new year. blessed sweet sweet year a year that will please everybody amen thank you thank you both

51:44as we close today's episode a final thought for the high holiday season This is the time of year when many of us reflect on the values that guide our lives, the people who have shaped us, and the impact we hope to have on the generations that follow. Philanthropy is one way we carry those values forward. Jewish Communal Fund, JCF, is a philanthropic home where individuals and families can turn generosity into lasting change. Whether you're supporting the causes you care about today or creating a legacy for tomorrow, J.C.F. helps you give with intention, purpose, and confidence. This high holiday season, consider not only what you want to give, but the future you want to help create.

52:28Learn more at jcfny.org or follow the link in the episode description. Jewish Communal Fund, strategic giving, powerful impact.