Is there a Final Solution to the Jewish question? - with Dara Horn

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0:21You are listening to an ARK Media podcast. This is the story of a tiny countercultural minority that refused to bow to tyrants, refused to assimilate into dominant empires. That is a story that goes on for thousands of years. So when the Jews say they don't bow to other gods, what they're really saying is they don't bow to tyrants. If you think about it that way, you realize that that is inseparable from the pattern of anti-Semitism for thousands of years. Because ultimately, when you have an anti-tronical movement, it pisses off timings. And when you have a non-conformist movement, it pisses off dominant societies that need everyone to agree with them in order to validate their own ideas.

1:01The way I came to think about anti-Semitism is that anti-Semitism is essentially better understood less as a bigotry or a bias than as a lie. It is a lie that people use to gain or maintain power.

1:27It's 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, August 11th here in New York City. It's 10.30 p.m. on Tuesday, August 11th in Israel. Before today's episode, a quick housekeeping note. On Thursday, October 22nd, just five days ahead of the Israeli elections, Call Me Back will hold a live taping at the Stryker Center in New York City, where I'll sit down with Dan Shapiro, Dahlia Scheinlin, and Brett Stevens to discuss what's at stake in Israel's 2026 election and what its results will mean for the U.S.-Israel relationship. Tickets have just gone on sale, so if you want to join us, please follow the link in the episode description.

2:03Now on to today's episode. In 2021, Dara Horn published the book People Love Dead Jews. The title alone was rattling, but it made a strong argument. America, Dara wrote, will canonize a murdered Jew far more readily than it will engage with a living one. It became a bestseller. It won a National Jewish Book Award, and it turned into something close to a diagnostic term for how American culture actually relates to Jewish suffering. Five years later, after October 7th, after Bondi Beach, after several years in which nearly every assumption about Jewish identity in much of the English-speaking world has been tested, Dara Horn is back with a new book whose title does something even bolder.

2:52It's called The Final Solution to the Jewish Question, a love story for the living. It's out this September. Dara is deliberately taking the language the Nazis used to describe the extermination of European Jewry and repurposing it to ask, what would an actual solution, not a slogan or a hashtag, look like? The book ranges wildly. The failures of Holocaust education, the long prehistory of the anti-Zionist movement, the quiet compromises of what's been called the American-Jewish Golden Age, and an investigation into an organized effort to poison artificial intelligence itself with anti-Jewish propaganda.

3:33Dara Horn has a doctorate in Hebrew and Yiddish literature from Harvard. She's taught at Yeshiva University in Sarah Lawrence. Her last book named The Disease, and this one claims to have found, or at least argued toward, a cure. My conversation with Dara Horn after this message.

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5:08Dara, welcome to Call Me Back. Thank you so much for having me. I am really looking forward to this conversation on what is a very dark topic, but such are the books you write. Your book, People Love Dead Jews, I reference all the time. It had a huge impact on me and the way I think about the challenges and some of the opportunities we face. The title of your last book, People Love Dead Jews, was very provocative. I didn't think anyone could come up with a more provocative title. And this book, which is called The Final Solution to the Jewish Question, A Love Story for the Living, borrows the most radioactive phrase in modern history to try to come up with a solution, which is The Final Solution.

5:51So why that title? This book actually came about because of what happened to me after I published People Love Dead Jews, which, as you mentioned, was back in 2021. So well before October 7th. The premise of People Love Dead Jews ultimately was that non-Jewish societies only find Jews acceptable if they have no power, whether that means they're politically impotent or dead. And in that book, I explore sort of the many situations in which this comes up. And it's, you know, I go to Jewish heritage sites around the world. I talk about Holocaust commemoration and many other things. I really saw this book as just sort of an intellectual exploration of this problem.

6:29And then I was really surprised after the book came out that suddenly it was like a floodgate opened. Suddenly I had what felt like every Jew in America coming to me asking me for help, telling me their personal horror stories and experiences with anti-Semitism and asking me to fix this for them, which was shocking to me. I mean, I'm a novelist. I'm not a therapist. I feel like I made a mistake with writing People Love Dead Jews because it was my first nonfiction book after writing five novels. And I did not realize that when you write a nonfiction book about a problem, people expect you to solve the problem at the end of the book.

7:04So people kept asking. And ultimately, these asks became institutionalized. after October 7th, I was recruited for this anti-Semitism advisory group at Harvard to the now former president of Harvard, who, as you may have heard, did not take a whole lot of our advice. Right. In fact, it went so badly that I ended up as a witness in the congressional investigation. But now I have been thinking about this for three years, and I actually now have realized there's a lot we could be doing differently. You describe in the post-October 7th years, you speaking at events in the Jewish community. And after every event, people would come up to you and unload their stories to you about what they have been seeing and experiencing since October 7th.

7:48And people are coming to you and describing what? It was just astounding to me, the amount of fear that people were coming to me with these stories. I mean, there's a lot of stories people came to me with that I didn't even put in the book because it's just too much. Like I'll give one example. A journalist came to me saying that the news organization that this person was working for was part of the union. As this person told me, this is a requirement. Part of my paycheck goes to this union. This union has just declared itself to be an anti-Zionist union where Zionism will not be accepted in our union.

8:20And she's like, no one will write a report about this because all of these various national news outlets are part of this union. Can you write about it, please? Another example is this plot to poison artificial intelligence with anti-Semitic lies, like a very rigorous plot. And it got to the point where I'm like, this wasn't what I set out to do. But obviously, there's something about leadership where, you know, the way leadership happens is you look around and you see like someone ought to do fill in the blank and you look around and no one's doing it. And then you're like, I guess it's me. Right.

8:50OK. So if the problem that you diagnosed in your first book, which is that diasporic societies only know how to love Jews once they're martyrs, you're basically saying that these societies only accept Jews that don't have power or Jews who are dead are the only Jews that are celebrated or tolerated for that matter. Yes. So, I mean, look, in the last book, I begin with the story of something that happened at the Anne Frank Museum in Amsterdam, which was something that happened way back in 2018 before this sort of thing was cool. It was a young Jewish man working at that museum. The museum would not allow him to wear his kippah to work.

9:23They had him hide it under a baseball hat. You know, I sort of made this joke, like, why is the Anne Frank Museum forcing a Jew into hiding? Right. But of course, the other element of that story was that they also had wiped the Israeli flag from their display of languages for their audio guide. And I mean, that was just an encapsulation of that. I mean, here at the Anne Frank Museum, like what is what the heck is the purpose of the Anne Frank Museum? So merging some of the ideas in that book with the book you have coming out now, if your critique or your diagnosis was that societies are all too happy to honor, celebrate, tolerate Jews who are powerless or dead, then what does it mean to honor living Jews in a way that you would hope that societies would do it?

10:05There's a more work to be done in understanding how we got to this point and how to get out of it. This book explains how we got here by describing how it's impossible to understand this particular moment that we're in without really understanding this pattern, which has really been going on for 2200 years. And if you don't understand this pattern, you're going to fall for it. So let me explain what I mean by this. There's a positive story about Jewish civilization and life, and then there's a negative story about anti-Semitism and dead Jews. I used to think that. I don't anymore. I now realize that those two stories are inseparable.

10:42Inseparable. And what I realize is a lot of the ways that Jews have tried to sort of fill in this blank are themselves all still subject to anti-Semitic assumptions. So, for example, often people say, oh, we should be celebrating Jewish contributions to society. Like, oh, we should be teaching kids about how Jews cured polio or something like this. Well, curing polio is not really the standard for earning public respect, right? That's kind of a high bar to clear. And so then I started thinking about there's something weird about this. This is still in that box of Jews trying to prove that they're not evil.

11:13And that's what took me back to this ultimate question. So I started thinking about the actual very basic elements of Jewish civilization since ancient times, the groundbreaking ideas of this people, because ultimately this is the story of a tiny countercultural minority that refused to bow to tyrants, refused to assimilate into dominant empires. That is a story that goes on for thousands of years, right? Even the sort of core ideas of Jewish tradition, like monotheism, the covenant between God and the people, the Torah. Ultimately, if you think about those ideas in the ancient world, those ideas are not only religious or spiritual ideas, they're political ideas.

11:50Because other societies in the ancient world may have lots of gods. One of the gods might be the dictator, right? People are expected to think the pharaoh is a god. They were expected to worship the Roman emperor. So when the Jews say they don't doubt other gods, what they're really saying is they don't doubt the tyrants. So if you think about it that way, if you think about Jewish civilization as this counterculture, this anti-tyrannical movement essentially since ancient times, you realize that that is inseparable from the pattern of anti-Semitism for thousands of years. Because ultimately, when you have an anti-tronical movement, it pisses off timings.

12:24And when you have a non-conformist movement, it pisses off dominant societies that need everyone to agree with them in order to validate their own ideas. So the way I came to think about anti-Semitism is that anti-Semitism is essentially better understood less as a bigotry or a bias than as a lie. It is a lie that people use to gain or maintain power. And in the book, I call this the big lie. And to me, this also sort of cuts through all of the noise because today there's all this discussion in the Jewish community. Oh, there's right wing anti-Semitism and left wing anti-Semitism with anti-Semitism versus anti-Semitism.

13:01No, no, no, no, no. It is all exactly the same. It's all the big lie. The big lie is always the same in every era, every place. Jews are destroying what you value the most. This is a lie that is told by people who want to gain or maintain power. Jews are destroying what you value the most. The only thing that's different in different eras and different settings is what you value the most. And ultimately, what I realized is that what we were lacking in the American Jewish community is this pattern recognition for this lie. Because once you recognize this lie, it's possible to inoculate people against it.

13:35Okay, so in the book, you talk about this idea how to teach the Jewish story. And you say the opposite of hatred isn't love or empathy, it's curiosity, which really is a direct challenge to how Holocaust education has been designed or kind of has evolved for a couple of generations as like an exercise in empathy and also an exercise in universalism. Yes. A version of this can happen to anybody or versions of it have happened to a lot of people, not just Jews. And your book calls all of that a failure. Yes. So why is one question? And what's wrong with love or empathy? Right. Here I am coming out against love and empathy.

14:14Right. I'm really a prophet of doom here. It's right. Yeah. I mean, come on. This is not. I'm so much fun to hang out with, aren't I? Yeah. I spent about a year and I should say this is before October 7th. I spent about a year researching the way the Holocaust is taught in American schools. I went to museums around the country. I met with teachers. I went to teacher training conferences and institutes. I met with people who write curricula. And what was really striking to me was how essentially Jews had been erased from the story that was being taught about the Holocaust. And I know that sounds insane because people say like, oh, this is totally about Jews.

14:46Oh, no, the Jews don't have a speaking part in this story. The way it was being taught was, as you mentioned, this model of empathy, right, where the idea is you're trying to find what it is that you have in common with others and that that's supposed to be how you overcome bigotry. That's sort of the pedagogical concept that teachers and educators were drawing on. And ultimately what that meant was they would find Holocaust victims who were most relatable, so to speak. So somebody like Anne Frank, who grew up in a Western country, didn't speak a Jewish language, was protected by her non-Jewish neighbors.

15:19This is like the most atypical possible Holocaust story. The vast majority of, I think, 85 percent of Jews killed in the Holocaust were Yiddish speakers. Probably over 99 percent of Jews who endured the Holocaust had no interaction with anyone we would call an upstander or a righteous Gentile. What I realized was there was a foundational flaw in that approach because the premise was that you shouldn't hate Jews because Jews are just like everyone else. Right. That's the love and empathy piece. But the problem with this is that, you know, the Nazi project was not about killing six million people who are just like you and me.

15:52It was about erasing Jewish civilization. and when I went on this like year-long tour of American Holocaust education, I saw that essentially American educators were participating in this erasure because there was no attempt to teach anything about who Jews are. I remember being in the Dallas Holocaust Museum and this thing I talk about in the book and I was at a teacher conference there and I was talking to one of the docents and I said, what do the students usually ask when they come through the museum? And he said, you know what they ask? Are there still Jews alive today? Right. Because if you went to this museum, you kind of wouldn't know, right?

16:23I mean, and what I noticed is like there's no Jews after 1945 in Holocaust education. You describe in your new book that for most non-Jews, what they know of Jews is they hear about like the Israelites when they study their like biblical. Yes, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Or they hear about it in a church or something. Yes. And it's interesting. They say Israelites, but they don't study Jews, you know, quote unquote. Yeah, they don't tell you those are Jews, right? Those are Jews. So it's Israelites. And then the next time you hear anything about Jews is from 1933 to 1945. Correct. Correct. And then 1945 ends and the story of the Jews ends and that's it.

17:00Correct. And I want to be clear. I mean, I'm not arguing against Holocaust education, especially in this era when we're facing so much Holocaust denial. It's mandated in 28 states or something like that. It should be 50. But what that means is that the only thing students were learning in school about Jews, if they learned anything at all, is that Jews were people who were murdered in Europe between 1933 and 1945. And their murders are supposed to teach us some nice lesson about humanity or empathy or something. And what that means is that we've outsourced everything else that students are going to learn about Jews to TikTok.

17:29And we are living with the results. So when TikTok then tells those same students that, you know, Jews are white European colonizers who have no business in the Middle East and are like stealing land from righteous brown people or something like that, students have no reason to disagree with that because, you know, that fits with what they heard. So, I mean, this is like you're just leaving this wide open. And what I realized ultimately is this is a deliberate ignorance. This is a deliberate ignorance which falls into this sort of like pattern of suppressing Jewish civilization for thousands of years.

17:58I can say more about that. Okay, I'm going to want to come back to that. So there's something else, though. I mean, it's not conscious by the people doing it, but yes. But there's something else going on here, which I have experienced. There's these stories now every week, like every day, these acts of violence or harassment or intimidation against Jews. The most recent one, just because it's fresh in my mind, was this kosher restaurant in Montreal that was just burned down. Like, oh, like that's just another occurrence, not an organ of the Israeli government, not an organ of the IDF, not that that would make it OK.

18:28But I'm just saying just a clearly a Jewish owned restaurant in Montreal just gets burned down over Shabbat. And that's just that doesn't even shock us anymore. We're numb to this. And yet we, you and I and others feel like we're taking crazy pills because this is not normal. This is what is happening is crazy. and when we tell people this they think you're overreacting or you think you're manipulating that actually is not the most alarming reaction i get when i tell people these stories or flag these things for people they say oh yeah that's terrible it's awful but you're acting like there's a holocaust so they all know the holocaust and that's all they know so any pattern or trend or data or anecdote you point to that falls short of i mean this is going to be harsh i'm going to say but falls short of, you know, the Warsaw Ghetto or Auschwitz, they think you're like making something out of nothing.

19:18And I think so that's been another effect of all this emphasis on the only thing people are taught about the Jews is the Holocaust is they think that is the case study of when bad things happen to Jews and anything short of an attempted extermination is like you're trying to make a lot of noise out of not much. But there's something much deeper than that, which is that focusing on that eliminates pattern recognition. Anti-Semitism is always eliminationist. And what I mean by that doesn't necessarily mean just murdering everyone. There are many forms of eliminating Jews from your society. There's the entire Middle East and North Africa from which the entire Jewish population was completely emptied in the 20th century.

19:5925 % of Tripoli was Jewish. You know, 30 % of Baghdad was Jewish. I mean, these cities were more Jewish than New York City ever has been. How many Jews live in those cities today? Zero. So, I mean, you know, and we don't even talk about like that doesn't even have a name. That doesn't even have a name. Right. The emptying of the, you know, every single Jewish community from the entire Middle Eastern world. But what we are not teaching people ultimately is something deeper than this. When I talk about the big lie, which I mentioned earlier, anti-Semitism always follows the pattern of the big lie.

20:31Jews are destroying what you value the most. The importance of that big lie is that it gives you a righteous reason to want to eliminate Jews, whether that means expelling people from your society, whether it means pushing them out of public life, whether it means pushing people out of professions, whether it means, you know, not letting these people perform at your music dance festival, whatever it is. right, those eliminationist tactics are made to feel righteous because you think, oh, I'm standing up for my society's ideals, whatever they are. So that is the structure. And so to me, this has to be taught as a lie.

21:08And the way we have to teach this as a lie is demonstrating all the different times in which this has been used as a lie by people who need to gain or maintain power. And to me, the focus on the Holocaust has eliminated the kinds of patterns we could be talking about. For example, talking about the Nazi Holocaust as something that happened between 1933 and 1945 is dramatically inaccurate because Nazism didn't die with the Holocaust. And what I mean by Nazism not dying with the Holocaust isn't just, oh, there's now neo-Nazis today who are whatever white nationalists harassing people in various places around the world.

21:41That's not even what I mean. I'm going to give a very concrete example that I give in the book. Johan von Lers is somebody that, yes, no high school teacher who's teaching about the Holocaust has probably ever heard of this person. Johan von Laers was a Nazi ideologue. He joined the Nazi party way before it was cool in 1929. Even before that, he had already written fan letters to Haj Amin al-Husseini, who I know your listeners know was the Mufti of Jerusalem. This was a Palestinian Arab leader who had already in the 1920s successfully incited mob violence and massacres of Jews in cities like Jerusalem and Hebron and Jaffa.

22:16So Johan von Laers was writing fan mail to Haj Amin al-Husseini in 1929, complimenting him on his work. Hajime al-Husseini then, during World War II, comes to Berlin, spends the entire war employed by the Third Reich to spread Nazi propaganda to the Arab world. Johan von Wers is a Nazi ideologue. He was working for Goebbels and then for Himmler. He published, I think, 27 books in 10 years about Nazi ideology. And to him, what was so important about Nazi ideology is this point that Holocaust scholars have made, which is that the Nazi regime was not anti-Semitic because it was racist. It was racist because it was anti-Semitic.

22:52And Johann von Lierz expresses this in his work, because ultimately the argument he is making is that, as he puts it, Jews have tried to convince the world of a great lie, which is that all people are equal. Ultimately, this was the Nazi regime, like all anti-Semitic regimes, was against the content of Jewish civilization, right? This is an objection to the content of Jewish civilization as an anti-tyrannical movement. All of this would be interesting and kind of a fun footnote to the Third Reich, except for what happens to Van Lerse after the fall of the Nazi regime in 1945. He escapes justice by going to Argentina in Buenos Aires.

23:28He's super into dictators. He works for Juan Perón until Perón is deposed. He then starts working for the Egyptian embassy in Argentina, creating their bespoke campaign against Argentine Jews, which is an interesting use of Egyptian funds. He's then recruited by the Nasser regime. Gamal Abdel Nasser was a dictator of Egypt starting in 1956. He recruits Von Lers to come to Cairo to create anti-Israel propaganda that is then used throughout the entire Arab League. Von Lers does that for the rest of his life. And my favorite coda to this story is that in 1956, he reunites in Cairo with his longtime friend, Hajime al-Husseini, who then converts him to Islam.

24:09Oh, and then some of von Lehr's material then gets translated into Russian and repurposed by the Soviets. Right. Why are we pretending that this ended? So that's one example. Imagine if we had spent like maybe four minutes of the time we spent teaching people about Nazi anti-Semitism, teaching them about, say, Soviet anti-Zionism. Okay, so let's spend a minute on that, because I would suspect even many of our listeners listening to this conversation today don't know what you mean when you say what it would mean to study Soviet antisemitism. There was rabid antisemitism in the Soviet Union, but that's not the point you're making.

24:43No. You're describing a very specific approach to antisemitism, which has familiar echoes today. It could be interpreted as very tolerant of Jews, just not tolerant of a certain kind of Jew and a certain kind of Judaism. Yes, Soviet anti-Zionism. I want to be really clear. Sorry, Soviet anti-Zionism. But it is anti-Semitism. But go ahead. Of course it is. Right. I mean, and it's so blindingly obvious. OK, so explain. So for your listeners who might not be aware of this, the Bolsheviks in 1918 are waging civil war to take over what's going to become the Soviet Union from what the former Russian empire.

25:15There are at this point two million Jews in the former Russian empire. They obviously want these people on their side in the civil war. The Soviet Communist Party at this point creates what it calls the Evsaksia, Jewish sections of the Communist Party, whose purpose is to spread Marxist propaganda among the Jews of the former Russian Empire. This is led by Jews. And their slogan in 1918 is, we are not anti-Semitic. We are just... Anti-Zionist. Anti-Zionist. This is in 1918. It's 30 years before the state of Israel. It's probably not about Netanyahu. And, you know, oh, and of course, also they're Marxist.

25:54So, you know, They're also anti-religious. So they love Jews. You know, you just can't be a Zionist. You can't study Hebrew. You can't practice Judaism. But otherwise, Jews are great and we love them. And of course, in the process of not being anti-Semitic and only being anti-Zionist, the Soviet Union ultimately manages to persecute and torture and execute and imprison and discriminate against tens of thousands, ultimately millions of Soviet Jews suffer under this regime, which is officially not anti-Semitic and just anti-Zionist. And they ultimately spread this to their client states, their satellite states in Eastern Europe.

26:28You see this spoke anti-Zionist, so to speak, campaigns happens in Poland in 1968. I mean, how many Jews are left in Poland after the Holocaust? Not a whole lot. Yet we managed to get rid of another, I think it's 30 ,000 of them in 1968 by saying, we are not anti-Semitic, we are just anti-Zionist. And then they push all Jews out of their jobs in Poland. By the late 1960s, the Soviet Union creates this elaborate campaign of anti-Zionism. And this is where they start generating all the slogans that we still hear so often today. Zionism is racism. Zionism is colonialism. Zionism is apartheid. Zionism is genocide.

27:08These are all slogans that go back to the 1960s and 70s. They are directly from the KGB, from the Soviet secret police. Can you imagine if we had spent five minutes teaching students about this massive hate campaign that emptied societies of their Jews, right? Pushed Jews out of public life, persecuted Jews in the Soviet Union and in its client states. It's astonishing. And it's like, I remember showing a short film about this to teachers that I was training. It was literally a one minute film. And in this case, it was Jewish community teachers and they all just stared at me. They're like, why didn't I know about this?

27:41Right. OK, so explain how 19th or 20th century anti-Zionism relates or connects directly to what we were seeing rip apart college campuses and different all aspects, really, of diasporic life after October 7th. All these same slogans are preserved even after the fall of the Soviet Union in the Arab world and certainly by the Iranian regime after 1979, because the Iranian regime is sort of amalgamating Marxism and Islamism. And that's sort of where it's drawing its power, its rhetorical strength is from those two sources. This is an elaborate and extremely well-financed campaign. So when we go to like what happened, let's say, and you said on college campuses, oh, man, Dan, I wish it was college campuses and not labor unions and cities and health unions and hospitals and companies.

28:31And I mean, this is like we tell ourselves as college campuses so that we can compartmentalize it. And it's not. But what we are looking at is an organized international eliminationist hate movement, and it's extremely well-funded, and it is extremely well-organized. And what we're seeing is this is an effort by tyrannical regimes to push Jews out of public life and to discredit Jews in every way. I feel like when people say that, it sounds like they're wearing a tinfoil hat. And what I want to be clear is what I bring in this book is the receipts. Okay, say more. I'm going to give an example.

29:03I had an experience where I was asked to do an Ask Me Anything event on Reddit. The person who was running this event was someone who was a volunteer moderator for a Jewish subreddit. This person happens to also be a data scientist. And what he noticed was that on October 7th itself, October 7th, 2023, there were these gigantic forums on Reddit that had nothing to do with the Middle East, had nothing to do with Jews, had nothing to do with Israel. These were like, you know, 20 million people are all in this, you know, subscribe to this forum about documentary film, something like that. Right. Those kinds of forums.

29:38On October 7th, they all suddenly became flooded with, you know, globalized the Antifada. You know, all of the slogans we hear, you know, this is, you know, Hamas is the resistance and, you know, pushing out Jewish users out of those forums. And this was just so bizarre that people couldn't help but notice it. And what this person and other people who were working with him started to do was to track the people who were changing the character of these subreddits. And ultimately, what they uncovered was a plot by a group of people to change the content of Reddit and Wikipedia on anything on a Jewish or Israeli topic.

30:14He was able to trace these people back to Hamas, and he was able to determine why they were doing this, which is that those companies, Wikipedia has a relationship with Google. So they are the top feeder for Gemini and for Google's emerging large language models. Reddit has a contract with OpenAI and ChatGPT to be a top feeder for their sources. So ultimately, what these people realized was if you change the entry for Zionism on Wikipedia, then that will forever be the answer whenever somebody asks an LLM, what is Zionism? And so if you look at what Zionism, the entry in Wikipedia said in 2022, it said it defined it correctly as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people that seeks to reestablish a homeland in the ancestral homeland of the land of Israel.

31:00Today, I have it here from the chapter of your book. So you have here by early 2024, I'm quoting from your book, the world's most used reference source had redefined Zionism as, quote, an ethno-cultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of a land outside of Europe. Yeah. And that was, again, early 2024. So the pivot point here is the post-October 7th world. This was like a small group of extremely dedicated people who took this on as their responsibility to basically rewrite Jewish history, whitewash Hamas to make it look like a non-terror group.

31:38I mean, it was extremely explicit. You actually chronicle how organized this like armies of editors working on this minute to minute, like there's basically like assigned shifts so that this is a very comprehensive effort. Oh, yes. What you see is, I mean, this is what your data people who work in this field will call a data poisoning plot. But what I then do is I wind back the clock 500 years to the invention of the printing press. And I show how what we think of as a medieval blood libel went viral because of the printing press and not just because, oh, printing press made it easier to spread information.

32:11It was this one bishop in Trent who like basically literally hired what we today would call influencers to publish and draw cartoonings and print all these things, chat books of things about this case. So what you see is like how much this relies on a lie, how much it relies on manipulation. And so, you know, that's why I think what's most important for people to understand is that there's nothing organic about what Jews are experiencing today. This is not like an organic upswelling of, you know, popular sentiment or something. This is a very organized con. And to me, that's why it is so important for people to understand and be taught about this as a lie that people use to gain or maintain power and ask who benefits from that lie.

32:51OK, I want to get to that, but I do want to just stay on this point about what's happening with Reddit and how it serves as the content basis for the LLMs. I want to give you a receipt because this receipt comes from one of the ArcMedia team members that flagged this for us. It's a clip that landed on one of their feeds, social media feeds. I want to play it for you and then I want you to react to it. What if Germany won World War II? Part 2 Victory parades march through the capitals as the Third Reich celebrates the end of the war. Across the Atlantic, the United States finds itself facing a hostile superpower that controls much of Europe.

33:27The war in Europe is over. Germany has won. The true consequences of that victory are only beginning. The Holocaust continues. Year after year, millions more people disappear into concentration camps. Entire communities are erased. Families that would have shaped future generations vanish from history before they ever get the chance. Israel is never established. Instead, a Palestinian state emerges as the dominant power in the region, reshaping the Middle East for generations. As decades pass, the United States builds a close relationship with Palestine, turning it into one of America's most important allies.

34:08The political tensions that define the Middle East never develop in the same way. September 11, 2001 becomes just another Tuesday. The war on terror never happens. Trillions of dollars spent fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are never spent. Thousands of American soldiers never deploy overseas. entire generations grow up in a country focused more inward instead of fighting conflicts abroad all because the beaches of normandy were never taken so darrah that was believe it or not that is a revisionist history social media post that was on tiktok and there's a whole video component to this thing and then you go through the comments and basically there are comments from people on the left comments from the people on the right which is pretty clear and they're all basically in agreement that the world would be a better place had Hitler been able to finish the job.

35:00Now, this is jarring on so many levels, but in part, the content for it, I think, is created through some of the methodologies that you are describing here. Yes. I mean, look, there's a lot we could talk about in terms of like, you know, deep fakes and things like that. It's very easy to distort media. When I say that anti-Semitism is a lie, that means the way to teach people to inoculate people against anti-Semitism is for people to understand when they're being manipulated. Okay. And that means that they have to understand, first of all, something that psychologists call the illusory truth effect.

35:34Illusory truth effect is a pretty robustly studied concept in psychology, which is that when you hear a lie repeated enough times, you start to believe it, right? You think, you know, there must be something to it. Why do I keep hearing it over and over again? You know, Zionism is genocide. Zionism is genocide. Zionism is genocide. Zionism is genocide. Zionism is genocide. It's like after a while you're like, well, I have some weird association between Zionism and genocide. I wonder why. Right. I mean, it's like, well, guess why? Right. So that's one piece of it. Another piece of it, though, is understanding when I say understanding when you're being manipulated.

36:01You know, you don't pay for TikTok. You don't pay for Instagram. That means that you're the product. And if you are the product, who is benefiting from that product? This is something that a lot of people are not thinking about and need to be. And, you know, to me, this is sort of the story. One of the things that we teach about when we teach about this pattern of anti-Semitism about the big lie that repeats is how the lie is always accelerated through new media. Whether new media is the printing press, whether it's the radio, a book instead of a scroll, you can go back, you know, alphabets. New media is like the Wild West because you don't yet know who's credible.

36:34You don't have a system yet. You don't have norms. You don't have guidelines. You don't have a sense of how to determine who's credible and who isn't. And because you don't have that, credibility is simply determined by consensus. This is how the LLMs do it. Oh, the consensus means popularity. And guess what? This is very popular because people like to blame others for their problems. I don't know those origins of that clip that you shared. But when you think about the amount of power that tyrannical regimes have over all of those videos that you're seeing every day, there's a question about who is benefiting.

37:07Like, is there a reason why we keep talking about people murdered in one conflict and not in another? The first thing the Iranians did when they were slaughtering 30 ,000 people in two weeks was declare an internet blackout. Right. And you can do that when you're running a tyrannical regime. We don't have the power to do that in a democracy. But when you're running a tyrannical regime, you can do an internet blackout. So you can completely control the narrative. You control the flow of information. And to me, if you are teaching about antisemitism as a question of love and empathy rather than about manipulation, you've missed the entire story.

37:39We'll be right back. Over the past couple of years, Call Me Back has grown into something much bigger than we ever expected. A place for clarity, context, and honest conversations at a time when those things can seem hard to find. That's what ARK Media is all about. Building a truly independent voice, which means no one shaping what we say or how we say it. To help support our rapidly expanding operations, we created Inside Call Me Back, our members-only feed. If Call Me Back has been meaningful to you and you want to be part of what we're building, I hope you'll join us. You can subscribe at arkmedia.org or through the link in the show notes.

38:22And to our insiders, thank you. And we're back with Dara Horn. Okay, I want to talk about your criticism of this whole idea of the American Jewish Golden Age, because there's a lot of lamenting about the end of or the loss of the golden age of American Jewish life. And you really take that apart in the book. And you take it apart in the sense that we, the American Jewish community, made a series of compromises to get this golden age. And you all but say it blew up in our face. Well, so this was a piece by Franklin Ford that was published in. In the Atlantic. Yeah, in the Atlantic in 2024 that said, oh, the golden age of American Jews is ending, that he was sort of talking about this sort of there was this prosperity and acceptance of American Jews after World War II and that now this age is coming to an end.

39:13It's actually a very well supported and important article. I'm not dismissing this whole idea. The piece of it that I am dismissing is that in that article, he literally says that after the Holocaust, non-Jews felt bad about anti-Semitism and therefore they stopped hating Jews. This is a fantasy. It's not true. There are actual sociological studies from the late 1940s in the United States that demonstrate that the Holocaust had zero, zero effect on non-Jews attitudes toward Jews in the United States. If anything, it exacerbated anti-Semitism because people thought like, oh, well, if there's smoke, there's fire.

39:49You know, millions of people can't be wrong. You know, what do these people do to deserve this? And in fact, I would say that, you know, the late 1940s, in fact, were, as I put it, one of several high watermarks for signs outside of businesses saying things like no dogs and Jews allowed in the United States. What did change this situation was not non-Jews magically feeling bad and changing their attitudes. It was American Jewish activism. American Jewish activism is what changed the situation. And this took a few different forms. One is warfare. One is policy, you know, fighting for policy and civil rights legislation.

40:23These were, you know, national Jewish organizations that took the lead in changing policies, changing laws. This was at the same time, obviously, that Black Americans were fighting a much broader multifront fight against legal segregation in the South. A lot of times these groups worked together. And so that was one piece of it. Another piece of it, though, was what you might call cultural activism, which you have. And this is my friend Rachel Gordon, who's a historian at University of Florida. She has a great book that she wrote about this called Post-War Stories that's about sort of this active on efforts of American Jewish writers and thinkers to publish what she describes as anti-antisemitism novels and movies, you know, sort of, you know, making antisemitism look anti-American.

41:04The most famous example of this is a book in a film called The Gentleman's Agreement, which is the chapter of the entire chapter of the book. Yes. Chapter of the book is called, yes, Gentleman's Agreement. In the movie, this is sort of saying like, oh, there's this gentleman's agreement that we don't let Jews move into our fancy suburb or something like that. But what I point out and what she points out as well is that there was a compromise built into these efforts. One is that American Jewish leaders at that time made essentially a conscious decision to rebrand Jewish civilization as a religion.

41:32This was a tactical decision that made sense in post-World War II America when you had sort of one of America's periodic religious revivals is happening. We're fighting the godless Soviets in the Cold War, right? I mean, this was sort of like a savvy way to rebrand Jews as opposed to the way the Nazis had branded them as a race. So you start seeing all these articles in, you know, rabbis publishing in Life magazine and things like that for mass audiences about, you know, Judaism as a living faith and this kind of thing. So this was a vast attempt to rebrand Judaism as a religion. It succeeded.

42:01And I would call that a compromise because Judaism isn't a religion. Right. Jews have a religion. I mean, you could say Judaism is a religion, but Jewish civilization is not a religion. There's millions of secular Jews. Personally, I've never met a secular Mormon. And as you point out in the book, a secular Jew is as Jewish as a black hat Hasidic Jew. Correct. And that's even according to the lights of the black hat Hasidic Jew. Right. I mean, this is we are not a tradition that relies on, you know, you have to believe X, Y and Z or otherwise you're out of the club. OK, but Dara, how do you describe what Jews are?

42:35It's actually not complicated. It's just old. A lot of the categories that we think of is, you know, identity categories in modern life. Right. Jews predate the category of race. Jews predate the category of nationality. Jews predate the category of religion. When Hebrew was being revived as a spoken language, Hebrew linguists had to root through the Hebrew Bible to find a word to mean religion because Hebrew didn't have one. Jews are a type of social group that was common in the ancient world, very uncommon today, a joinable tribal group with a shared history, homeland, and culture. And that was a sentence in English.

43:08And in Hebrew, it's one word that's two letters long. Am. Jews are Am Yisrael, the people of Israel. And that's who Jews have always been. And the reason it's not familiar to people in modern societies is because guess what? Empires destroyed most ancient groups that were like this. Most ancient groups succumbed to empires and assimilated into empires. And the Jews are one of the few from ancient times that didn't. And so that's what makes it so, oh, it's so hard to understand. Well, it's only hard to understand because everybody's thinking in this imperial fashion. So ultimately, to go back to sort of the compromise that this meant American Jews took on, first of all, it meant that Jews put a lot of energy into redefining themselves as a religion.

43:49But what this has done is it has made American Jews unable to understand what is happening to them right now, which is an attack on the concept of Jewish peoplehood. Because if you don't even know what Jewish peoplehood is, you don't understand what you're dealing with. Right. But the golden age of American Judaism was in part about erasing the idea of peoplehood. That was the compromise. That was the deal that you write about. And Dan, there's even more than that, actually, because there's also another piece of this gentleman's agreement is not only this redefinition of Judaism, of Jewish civilization or Jews as a religion.

44:25When you look at the actual policy recommendations and legislation that national Jewish organizations were pushing for at the time, they were pushing for what at the time was thought of as a colorblind model against discrimination. So one example of this, and the historian Kirsten Vermeglet goes into this in her book. She has a great book called A Rosenberg by Any Other Name, which is about Jewish name changing in America. And in that book, she talks about how many Jews went to court to change their names to avoid anti-Semitic discrimination. In the 1940s in the United States, it wasn't about incidents.

44:59It was about you couldn't get a job. You couldn't rent an apartment. You couldn't stay in a hotel. Right. I mean, these are life limiting things. So, for example, one of the ways that employers would discriminate against Jews was eliminating any application to a job that had a Jewish sounding name on it. So Jews then went to court and changed their names to something less Jewish sounding to avoid this life limiting discrimination. employers then started publishing application forms that asked for your parents' names, for your grandparents' names, right? It would say, you know, what's your pastor's name?

45:30You know, it would literally say, you know, have you or your father ever legally changed your name explained fully? And so the tactic that the American Jewish organized groups did at that time was to go to court and make those kinds of questions illegal, which we all are beneficiaries of that, right? I mean, nothing to complain about that. But think about what that tactic meant it basically what they considered victory over anti-Semitic discrimination. The big win was that Jews could now pass. That was the win. Jews don't have to be Jewish in public. Compare that with something like the gay rights movement.

46:03The gay rights movement pointed out that, you know, it was about 15 years ago in the American military, there was this idea, don't ask, don't tell, where it was like, you could be gay in the military, but nobody was going to make you disclose that. Right. And ultimately, the gay rights movement identified that this is, in fact, a homophobic legislation because it's accommodating homophobia. We don't want to offend people who are homophobic. And ultimately, you know, that's why the gay rights movement ultimately landed on this idea of pride. Like the goal was not to, like, be able to go through your life in the closet.

46:32The goal was to be fully accepted in American life. And so what to me is so interesting is that, you know, we are this, quote, golden age of American Jews. Essentially, it was based on this idea that you were supposed to be able to pass. And there's a long history to that goes back to the emancipation in Europe. This is a failed movement. And to me, the ultimate failure of it is that at no point is anyone trying to disrupt the idea that Jews are innately disgusting. No one's trying to disrupt that at all. And, you know, to me, that means that you have allowed that concept to just sit there and you're not addressing it.

47:06And it's it's made it impossible to fight against Jewish peoplehood to understand when you're being attacked on the concept of Jewish peoplehood. And it also shows this sort of internalization of anti-Semitism that people don't even or aren't even aware that they have. Darrell, you know, there's a big debate, and I'm sure you hear this all the time, that we're losing a whole generation of Jews. There's this whole generation of Jews that feel disconnected from Israel. You know, the number of Jews that voted for Mamdani. And obviously, this is now an issue that's rearing its head again right now because of what's happening in Michigan with the Senate race.

47:36So first of all, it seems to me based on your book, you are not that alarmed by this data out there about the number of Jews that have, quote unquote, turned on Israel in the diaspora. Yes. Wouldn't it be nice if this hate movement had something to do with Israel, anything to do with anything real happening in Israel? It doesn't. It doesn't. And I mean, that was brought home to me when I was serving on this committee at Harvard. I'm going to give just one example of this. I remember it was in November of 2023 and the students were staging this whole national walkout of class. It wasn't just at Harvard.

48:06It was at schools and universities around the country. And at Harvard, the students, you know, these anti-Israel protesters came into the classes with megaphones, you know, long live the Intifada, walk out to show your support for a ceasefire in Gaza. To me, what was most revealing about this particular moment was that it happened during a ceasefire in Gaza. I mean, like you're facing, you know, this is an Islamist movement whose purpose is to conquer the Middle East and the West. So there's really nothing that Israel can be doing that would change that ideological movement. And what we are seeing here is, as I keep talking about this eliminationist hate movement, the amount of pressure that this movement exerts on people, especially young people who don't even understand what that pressure is or don't even understand how to identify it as pressure, is just so relentless.

48:53It is an effort to just harass anyone who doesn't agree. And that's how you know that this is a hate movement, because, you know, there's a whole discussion of, oh, is it is a criticism of Israel? What does it spill into anti-Semitism? No, no, no, no, no. There's two things. There's one that's actual conversations about Israeli policies, which we can talk about until the cow's going home. And that's what you do on this podcast with people far more informed than I am about everything in the Middle East. So there's that. And then there's a movement whose purpose is to push out of public life anyone who disagrees.

49:24That's how you know that this is sponsored by tyrannical regime is because the insistence that you have to recite the party line. That's the insistence. and that that has to be done through pressure campaigns. It has to be done through harassment. It has to be done through vandalism. It has to be done through personal attacks. It has to be done through death threats. It has to be done by going to your employer, smearing you online, right? The amount of pressure that this takes, I mean, this is harassment and intimidation and that's what people are facing. But to go to your question about the younger generation, you know, I often will hear that, oh, the younger generation is turning away from Israel because of, you know, whatever fill in the blank things that have happened in Israel.

50:00And I wish that young people were so informed. And the reason that they cared about this is because, you know, they're closely following Israeli politics. And, you know, they've been like tracking what's going on with the Palestinian Authority. And I'm like, no, there's one reason, one reason only. Those people get all of their information from their phone and their phones have been colonized by tyrannical regimes that are paying billions and billions of dollars to push whatever they want into these people's eyeballs all day long. So, you know, to me, that is like a much larger problem about how people get their information and the lack of skepticism, which is why in this in the Tell Institute, I have this new nonprofit.

50:38Yeah, which we'll link to in the show notes. This is a program for public schools. It's public schools, private schools. There's also a version of it for within the Jewish community for B 'nai Mitzvah students and things like that, which is teaching this what I call one story, which is the story of Jewish civilization and the dynamics of anti-Semitism, how they're intertwined and the choices that people have made to allow a civilization to adapt and be resilient for thousands of years. But a lot of what we're teaching is how to understand when you might be being manipulated. That's why I think it's so important to define anti-Semitism as a lie rather than simply as a bigotry, because so much of it is about people who want to gain or maintain power.

51:18The other way that Jews tend to respond to it is by stepping into the defendant's dock and trying to rebut every lie. Right. Like, you know, here's 10 reasons why Israel's not committing genocide. Here's 10 reasons why Israel's not a colonialist state. And once you do that, you've already lost because then you've accepted the terms of the argument instead of saying who is making this accusation and why. And what I've noticed is that, you know, I speak at a lot of college campuses and it often will happen that some student in a cafe will get up and ask hostile questions. And I just answer these questions.

51:52And I always expect those students to sort of come back at me, you know, heckle me more be like, well, what about this? And what about this? And what about this? And they never, never do. They never do. And this used to puzzle me. And then I realized I'm like, oh, they don't know anything. They got up to the microphone. They said Zionism is genocide. That was the beginning and the end of what they knew. And what I noticed is that often after these events, us Jewish students would come up to me and say like, oh, you know, that girl's been harassing us all semester and you just destroyed her. And I'm like, you could do this, too.

52:19And then we're like, oh, we don't know as much as you do. And I'm like, you really don't need a Ph.D. to answer to respond to an argument that's three words long. And what I realized is the real difference between me and these students is that they have to live with this harasser and I don't. But what that means is what these young Jewish people need, it's not just knowledge. What they really need is courage. What they really need is courage. And this goes back to thousands of years of the Jewish people's heritage of standing up to tyrants. This is like I've called this before the Queen Esther moment.

52:49Like you get to that moment where you're like, well, if I stand up in this moment, I could be killed or maybe doxed. Right. Or harassed online. There's this moment where, like, when you stand up and finally say the thing that you've been waiting to say, you suddenly discover how many people actually agree with you. And everybody's just been sitting around waiting for somebody to say it. And that somebody could be you. To me, the most important thing we have to teach our students is actually this idea of courage. But, you know, I'm not sure I agree with you fully for the following reason. I think part of the problem is courage.

53:21And courage is hard. It's not an easy thing to teach. It's not an easy thing to model. I mean, it would be wonderful, but sadly, it's not shocking to me that it's not happening. But the other problem is so many Jews in the diaspora, they were raised with a Judaism that didn't require too much of an investment by them. So their entire lives have been about a Judaism that didn't require them to be literate about Judaism, Jewish ideas, Jewish rituals, Jewish history, to not have lived them, to not have enjoyed them. You know, I have two categories of peers who have kids around my age. One category are the kids who go to campus, and they are the courageous ones that you're hoping they will be, right?

54:03And then there's the other category, which are basically, you know what? Like, what do I need this service for? I don't want to be socially isolated. I don't want to be ostracized. Like, I don't need it. So I'll just play it out. Like, I'm not looking for a fight. I won't embrace or advocate for my Judaism because it's just a hassle. So this is why I built the Tell Institute was exactly this problem that you're talking about, but also to sort of enable people to have these skills to recognize when they're being manipulated. Also to understand like the essential question of why the Jews and that question does go back to the value proposition of being Jewish.

54:39It's like a lifelong course masterclass in resilience and courage. That's a huge piece of what it means to be Jewish. What happened was I developed this for public schools. And I've gotten amazing results from public schools where I've taught it. I have to say, there's so much more ignorance than malice out there. And that is such an opportunity. That's why I feel like this is absolutely, in the American public, a solvable problem. This really, truly is a solvable problem. There's a way to change the way that we're teaching about this. There's a way to change this conversation. There is a way to prepare people for this.

55:09I started getting so many requests from within the Jewish community for this that ultimately my team and I developed a B 'nai Mitzvah version of this. This is based on a lot of research that's been done about radicalization and things like that and manipulation online. And what you realize is that there's a concept researchers called pre-bunking, which is far more successful than debunking. In other words, you prepare someone for the kind of manipulation they're likely to encounter rather than trying to debunk a lie after it's already been absorbed, which is much, much harder. And so that's why we developed this program for Bar and Bat Mitzvah students, because we felt like this is an age where people have the maturity to be able to understand these ideas, but also have not yet been saturated necessarily by the kind of lies that they're going to encounter as they get older and as they have to make more and more decisions about social groups and those kinds of things.

55:57So this is what we developed because, yes, I think that we need to inoculate people against the lie and we need to find more and more ways for people to understand, as you say, the value proposition of living a Jewish life. And can I tell you where I see it the most is in the anti-Israel movement. They're usually, you know, like white, non-Jewish American students who come to my event. They're wearing a keffiyeh and they get up and they ask their hostile questions and whatever. And I used to feel intimidated by these people. But I'm a mother of four teenagers. And at some point, I just realized, like, wow, I'm not scared of teenagers.

56:30And at that point, I stopped feeling intimidated by them. I started feeling really sorry for them because I would look at these people and I'd be like, wow, this is sad. Like, unlike my children, You don't have anything from your own culture to wear. You don't have a way to like gather with other people in an intergenerational community and sit in a circle once a week and chant meaningful words that make you feel like you're part of a bigger story. Like my kids do that every week on Shabbos dinner. But like, you know, you don't have that. You know, you have to go sit in a circle and be like chanting slogans.

57:01And there's like this emptiness that I think a lot of people are looking to fill. And I think that they're looking for a way to be part of a bigger story. And that is the value proposition of Jewish life is that, you know, there's this understanding that like you're part of this larger historical consciousness. You're part of this like vast intergenerational chain of meaning and that you get to bring your own meaning to it. So, Dara, do you think there is a final solution? I think that when you are part of a nonconformist movement, it's always going to require our courage. And yeah, that's not going to be fun for people.

57:34Do I think there's an opportunity to completely change the way we are telling this story? Absolutely. We are so fortunate in the United States. There is so much more ignorance than now. That is such an opportunity. Most Americans are not fans of the hate movement. Most Americans are not interested in harassing their neighbors, vandalizing property, pushing people out of public life. Most Americans are not aware that that's even what's happening to the Jewish community. And also, most Americans are inspired by this story that Jews first brought to the world, which is this idea that you don't have to bow the tyrants.

58:12That is an inspiring idea to Americans and people around the world. And I think that there's a lot that we can share with our neighbors and with our children about who we are. I think that there's absolutely a possibility of changing our future. All right, Dara, we'll leave it there. I really encourage everyone listening to this to order this book, The Final Solution to the Jewish Question, A Love Story for the Living. I really think, Dara, this is going to be one of the regarded as one of the most important books that really chronicles what so much of so many of us have been experiencing these last few years.

58:44And it's very level setting because it reminds you it's new, but it's not new. So thank you for the book. Thank you for this conversation and look forward to having you back on. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me and for everything you're doing to have these conversations every day. Thank you.

59:16I'm Debra Pardes, the host of ARK News Daily. What's happening in Israel and the Jewish world right now matters. but it can be hard to keep up, let alone make sense of it all. That's why we started ARC News Daily. Every weekday morning, I walk you through the most important news, give you the context you need, and let you know what to look out for next. I don't try to convince you of anything, and I don't waste your time. On most days, I'll be in your ears for about 10 minutes or less. Then you can move on with your day, hopefully a little bit smarter than before. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or follow the link in the show notes.

59:55I hope to see you tomorrow.