Child Great One-on-One, But Disrupts Family Dynamic, Won’t Apologize to Sibling? #577

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0:43Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners$30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com slash parenting. Go to myskylight.com slash parenting for$30 off your 15-inch calendar. That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash parenting. so how many of you have a child who messes up does something wrong and all you ask for is a simple apology and that yet they will just dig in and they will refuse to apologize and the more you demand an apology the more they will resist and you can take away everything they own and they just won't care do you have a child who when you go out like say you're one-on-one with them it's like really good it's like i've got my child back it's enjoyable but then when you and your spouse are both there together it's like an entirely different child and the situations kind of get blown up that is what we're going to discuss on today's episode of the calm parenting podcast so welcome this is kirk martin founder of celebrate calm you can find us at celebrate calm.com so look there are a few things here and i do encourage you to share this episode with your spouse because if you're not on the same page your kids they're not going to divide you you're going to allow them to divide you because you're not going to agree on how to discipline them and you're going to second guess each other and it will cause conflict so I want to give you very practical examples have how to make this work because we've got a lot of dynamics going on we've got sibling issues we've got parents who differ on how to discipline you're going to feel like you're letting your child get away with things.

2:27You're going to feel judged by your own parents and everybody else. I think you are going to find this very, very helpful and practical. Let's say you've got two kids and we're going to say there's Kara, the compliant, kind of easy sister, and she says something mean to Sarah, the strong-willed child. And mom simply says, Kara, apologize to your sister. And Kara immediately complies. I'm sorry I was mean to you Sarah and mom smiles you're like this is easy I'm a good parent this is the way it's supposed to work well the next day Sarah the strong-willed child says something mean to her sister mom says the same thing to apologize Sarah ignores her or stares directly right into your eyes.

3:18Mom then puts down her phone, her papers, and marches and stands over Sarah demanding, young lady, you apologize to your sister right now. And as soon as mom stands over her and says right now, an involuntary rigidness courses through the strong-willed child's body and she reflexively blurts out no in as petulant a tone as possible and now world war three has actually begun because now the strong-willed child was mean to her sister she just disobeyed and then she was defiant to her mother and it's about to get worse young lady if i have to tell you one more time to apologize. You are going to lose your play date tomorrow with your best friend.

4:14See, mom is seething now and it's a standoff. You know where this is going if you have one of these kids. Finally, Sarah utters, fine. Sorry, stupid sister. Right? And now mom has had enough. She takes away the play date and Sarah predictably yells, you're stupid too. So now this strong-willed child has the trifecta. She was mean, she was defiant, and now she's disrespectful. So guess what? Dad comes walking through the door and guess what he's going to hear all about, right of course and and so he's going to dutifully walk up to sarah's bedroom intending to talk to her about her behavior that look that never works well you have to learn a different way but when dad walks into sarah's room intending to help her and talk to her about her behavior guess what she's going to do she's going to turn her back on her father because now at least she's offended everyone in the family, further cementing her position in the family as the black sheep, right?

5:29And internalizing that she's the bad kid and everybody likes her sister more. And now you've got the seeds of Cain and Abel sprouting in your home. And the really hard part is that mom didn't do anything technically wrong here. She simply asked her daughter to apologize. And when Sarah didn't comply the first time, she upped the consequences like everyone has told her to do. Side note, you know what? I don't even know if I want to say that. My side note, look, my side note was this, and I hesitate to say this. Some of you have taken your kids or you've gone to therapists and you've spent literally thousands of dollars and all they ever tell you is, well, you just need to be firm, set clear boundaries and enforce your consequences.

6:22But you've done all those things and yet it still doesn't work with these kids. And so, right, because everybody, this is what everybody tells us to do. So this is the dilemma that other parents don't get at all. and that's why you get judged, right? And this is why you feel alone. It's why you second guess yourself and wonder if you're letting your strong-willed child get away with things, right? And how can you let her get away without a harsh consequence, but upon further reflection, when you really think it through, you realize this. We've given consequences countless times before, and yet nothing seems to quote get through to her so you're exhausted and perplexed and you don't know what to do because you didn't do anything wrong but it didn't work and it actually makes situations worse so this is hard have you ever felt that way right like kind of at your wits end and you're tired of all the judgmental sneering from family and friends who say you need to discipline harder but you've done it and doesn't work.

7:32So let's try a different way. So this is going to challenge and stretch you, but we've worked with hundreds of thousands of families and if you can embrace this, it works so much better. So what could we have done differently here? Conceptually, it's critical to understand the idea of ownership and why you must give strong-willed kids ownership and space or it will trigger countless power struggles. Ownership is giving your kids space to do things differently than you would do as long as they accomplish the same objective. You set your expectation and boundaries, right? Though you make your boundaries a little larger to accommodate larger than life kids.

8:23So you make your boundaries. Look, this is not permissive parenting at all. I'm not just letting kids do whatever they want. I've got very clear rules, expectations, and boundaries. But what I say is, hey, within this big box that I give you to live, we've got, it's very firm boundaries, very clear what I want. But I'm going to give you some space and time to own the way you do things, even if it's different than I would do it. Now, that's hard for us as parents. It's hard for many of you as well because you are control freaks and you want things done a certain way. And some of you, quite honestly, have a very distorted view of what authority figures are supposed to be.

9:05Because a good authority figure is not a dictator. And a good authority figure is a calm, patient leader who teaches. Discipline means to teach. So I give space, kids space, within these boundaries to do things differently than I would do them. And that's why I encourage you. Listen to the Calm Parenting Package or Get to Get Everything Packaged on the website. The first thing I would ask you to listen to is either the 30 Days to Calm program because that'll help you deal with your triggers or the Strong Willed Child program because it's foundational. I've heard so many times, I've learned more from this one program than I have in 10 therapy appointments.

9:45So let's rewind the situation. Sarah, the Strong Willed Child, says something mean to Clara, the compliant child. Instead of reacting, mom walks by Sarah and whispers, hey, I know that when you're ready, you know the right thing to do. And then walks away and drinks. I'm kidding, you don't drink, but you're gonna feel like it because now it's kind of out of your control as if it was in your control anyway, right? So now it's kind of like you walk away and you're like, oh, when's she gonna apologize? Shouldn't I be forcing her to apologize? am I not being a good mom or dad because I'm not making her behave you're going to wrestle with all those things but you've already done all those things and they didn't work so you walk away and give Sarah some space now here's just one of your challenges Sarah is not going to apologize right away she's not she's not she's not she's not and I don't care how much your spouse and parents and in-laws and friends tell you differently or judge you.

10:49She's simply not going to. These kids process things deeply and slowly. They want to do things on their own terms, not just because they are told to or expected to. And I know this irritates some of you or your spouse to no end. And you're going to think, well, we can't just let her get away with this. And the truth is she's not getting away with this or anything else. She will apologize, just not the way that you want and not in the timing that you want her to do it. So here's something that I really want you to internalize and please do this. This is going to be a common theme for your strong-willed kids for their entire childhood and probably their whole lives.

11:40They simply are not going to do things the way that you want, how you want, and always when you want. And again, this doesn't mean you just let them, right? There are different circumstances and situations where I can get them to move more quickly. You have to go to school, got to go to a doctor's appointment, you got to get stuff done. This is not one of those cases. There's a little bit more emotion going on here, and we do have some time. So many of the dads that I work with start down that path of enforcing it, and I'll show, you write that, like I'll show her and it just doesn't work. It backfires and these kids will dig in deeper.

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13:04You're going to love Hungry Root as much as we do. Go to HungryRoot.com slash Calm. Use code Calm to get 40 % off your first box. Plus, get a free item in every box for life. That's HungryRoot.com slash Calm. Code Calm to get 40 % off your first box. HungryRoot.com slash Calm. Code Calm. So, what I want you to know is that you're not giving in. Look, it's not like I want you giving her whatever she wants. It's not buying her things. You're just giving her some ownership of her choices within your boundaries. Look, the expectation is clear. You want her to apologize to her sister, but the strong-willed child is going to do everything differently.

13:49And I would implore couples, listen to the programs together, right? You can do it separately because each of you can get the app on your own phone, but really hash these issues out or it will drive you apart. So mom says, right, I know that when you're ready, you know the right thing to do. Here is why I like this. When you are ready is a fantastic phrase. I want you to use 6 ,387 times throughout your child's life. Why? Because I can guarantee you 100 % that when you command a strong-willed child to do something right now, that child will always dig in and say no, even if that makes taking a harsher punishment or consequence.

14:38Why? Think about this. And this is what's so important about this particular episode in getting this is this shows you how much your strong will kids value their independence and autonomy, and agency. It is a higher value to them than comfort or ease or convenience or acceptance by you. It's the sword they're willing to fall on. And you've seen this because you've been falling on your sword and all that happens is everybody ends up bloody in your home. So you've seen this a hundred times already. So stop fighting it. Stop thinking you can change your child's very nature. You know, I talk very directly to men, right?

15:26Because sometimes we as men, we're like, well, I'll just show her. No, you're not. And all you're going to do is drive, drive a deeper wedge between you and your child. You will then justify it because they're so difficult and it will drive a wedge between you and your spouse because she cannot keep running interference between the child and her husband and she can't can't keep managing everybody's emotions because she you accuse her dad sometimes we accuse our wives of like well you're just coddling our child and the truth is she's kind of coddling you because she knows what's coming when your daughter is going through this and not obeying immediately, she can feel the tension in you.

16:13She can hear your tone of voice. And look, sometimes this is completely opposite with mommas and dads, right? But I'm just picking on dads. Why? Because I'm a man. I'm a dad. I pick on men more. And usually we deserve it. So, right? Because we dig in and we're like, I don't have anger issues. I'm like, sure you don't. You just have denial issues. So, right? And so your wife can feel all this tension, knows what's about to happen. And so now she, think about this. How many of you have a home or have a child in which if you do one-on-one time with the strong willed child, your child is amazing. You have a great time.

16:54As soon as the other spouse is involved, it goes haywire and you know what that is it's because you're not usually on the same page and usually when mom is out with a little sarah and they're doing things well sarah's allowed to stand walk not just on the sidewalk mom lets her walk on the curb because that's what our kids do right it has to be why can't you just why can't you just walk on the sidewalk there's a sidewalk for or a reason. I get all that. But no amount of you're yelling and getting upset is going to change the fact that, duh, everybody walks on the stupid sidewalk. I want to walk on the curb.

17:34It's smaller surface area. There's a greater chance I'm going to fall off. And I like that challenge. Get in their brains, understanding, understand how they work. So when you're out alone with your daughter, mom allows something. When dad's along, or it might be opposite of that, But in this case, dad's along. Well, dad doesn't want that because dad's kind of, was military or dad's an engineer. Dad knows like there's a reason you have to do things and there's a sidewalk for a reason and you have to walk this particular way, right? And so now this child who's usually allowed to walk on the curb with her mom now isn't allowed with her dad.

18:13And she starts looking at her mom like, hey, what's up with this? And now see how this works. And that's why it falls apart. and you have to get on the same page here, right? And look, even if you resent and don't like your spouse anymore, which I get, it happens after many, many years at times, do it for the sake of the child because it's not right and it's not fair to put a child in between, let me just say it this way, your own immaturity because we're all immature as adults. And just because you haven't learned how to handle conflict because you haven't been through the Calm Couples Marriage Program, But just because you haven't learned how to handle conflict and deal with things with your spouse.

18:54Now, guess who pays? An innocent kid. And I want to break those generational patterns, right? That's what we're really, really after is let's break the generational patterns. Otherwise, this just evolves. It doesn't end well. It ends with broken relationships for years and decades. so let me go back before I veered off but look this is important because I look I'm getting older now and what I'm trying to impart to you is hopefully wisdom from talking to working with literally hundreds of thousands of families so I see the patterns and I care about people that sounds, I care about people, whatever, but I do.

19:44And I, and so look, I don't have a vested interest. If you want to do this and your family falls apart, right? It doesn't affect my life, but I want to do this because I've seen the pain that it causes and it's not good. So let's get back. So falling on the sword is where we kind of left off. Stop fighting your child and thinking you can change your child's very nature. And look, why would you want to anyway? Look, I know this is tough to deal with, but your kids, these are great qualities. It's who they are. It's the same quality that will cause them to stand up and do what is right, even in the face of pressure.

20:26It's the quality that causes them to be thought leaders because they don't always need or want social acceptance. They would rather have their independence. So when I say, hey, when you're ready, it gives your strong-willed child some ownership or agency. It's like it releases her to do what's right without a parent standing over her. And that's a huge key for these kids. If you have a spouse who is intent on just making your strong-willed child do things, then you may as well go see an attorney right now because it won't ever work. The relationship between child and parent will be ruined. So your marriage over time because you can't keep running interference and doing these things, right?

21:09So I also like what the mom did in the second version, right, of this is because what the mom did not do in this situation, she didn't crouch down and get on at eye level and lecture her daughter in that sweet syrupy tone hoping her daughter will finally, just once, comply. Honey, you know, it's really important to apologize and show you're sorry. Eh! Look, I hate that. I don't like that at all. And strong-willed kids don't like that tone of voice. It sounds condescending. I like talking to kids like they're adults. When I walk by and say, Hey, honey, I know that when you're ready, you know the right thing to do.

21:52See, you know why I know that? Because she does know the right thing to do. because you and I have modeled it for her a hundred times before when we mess up, we apologize, right? And so there is no, look, your daughter already knows that what she did was wrong and mean. That's why she did it. She doesn't need a lecture. She already knows to apologize because she's seen you guys do that before. I also like that mom didn't get personal and harsh. you know I don't know why you can't do so something so simple like apologize see sometimes you can hear your own resentment coming out because you do so much for your kids and this child makes stuff so hard and I get that but do watch this and be sure to take care of yourselves emotionally physically and spiritually so you don't get worn down and resentful mom also didn't compare the two kids as in you know your sister never does this please watch that one of the first recorded stories of family life from about 6 000 years ago records what happens when you sow the seeds of comparison between two siblings and a brother murders his brother and you don't want the seeds of Cain and Abel rearing their ugly head in your home right and that's the cause of many sibling fights.

23:16Okay, so mom says, when you're ready, I know you know the right thing to do, and walks away. Now what? Well, you wait, because that apology, not coming anytime soon. And if you drop a hint, honey, you know, I think now would be a good time to apologize to your sister, right? Or pressure Sarah. Sarah, if you don't apologize in the next hour, right? You, look, just reset the clock and start over. So you're going to be lying in bed with your spouse tonight once again worrying about this strong-willed child. And by the way, we've received this really great email this morning from a couple who said when they get worried and want to lecture, they pull up a random program on their app and listen for 10 minutes just to calm them down and reset themselves.

24:00And I love that. So you're going to be asking your spouse, are we raising a sociopath? Why can't she just apologize? And this is especially hard for those of you who are kind of compliant, rule-following parents whose natural instinct is, just do what you should do when someone asks you. So watch this subtle dynamic as well. Many of you are so busy raising your kids that it becomes kind of like a job, and you have to check off the boxes as if there was a parenting checklist. See, the more you have this checklist in your head, the more you will prioritize the checklist over the child and the relationship.

24:41so now after worrying a little bit talking you eventually fall asleep when you wake up in the morning you discover that strong-willed Sarah has done something kind and thoughtful for her sister as an act of contrition and you're going to be tempted to say okay Sarah now apologize to your sister and I'm going to challenge you once again she already did apologize to her sister how by doing an act of contrition. Wouldn't you rather have contrition than a forced apology? And you're going to protest, but she is so pig-headed. And I'll respond, yes, she is. And so are you, because you need her to do this in a certain way.

25:26And when she doesn't, it throws you off your internal sense of order and right and wrong and justice. And those are your control issues to deal with. because if we're honest with ourselves, we like doing things our way, a certain way as well. And guys often hide behind a justification that, well, I'm the authority figure, so I get to call the shots. And I don't want you being a weak parent. I don't want you being a permissive parent or a sweet, soft parent who gets walked all over. But that didn't happen here. Your daughter did apologize. You just don't like how she did it and what it looked like and what it sounded like.

26:00And it makes you worry about her future. And I guarantee that part of the reason she won't use the words, I'm sorry, to her sister is simply because you want it. Let's say, no, you need it. You need it too badly. You need her to use those words. Do you see how that works? Look, this podcast isn't really about an apology. It's about understanding the heart and brain of strong-willed children and understanding your own triggers and control issues. that cause power struggles. Because I promise if you learn how to do this, you can stop most of these power struggles and enjoy your children. So let's practice doing this this week.

26:47Thank you for working so hard at this, moms and dads. I know it's hard, but you're doing good work. And I want you to enjoy these kids. So let us know how we can help. Okay, love you all. Bye-bye.