My Best Podcast Ever: Defiance & Reconciling With My Son #601

0:00You already know what I want for Father's Day. Cozy Earth. I sleep under my cozy earth bamboo sheets. I live in my bamboo shorts and polo and polo. But my latest obsession is the Cozy Earth Everywhere Pant. Now you can wear these insanely soft and breathable Cozy Earth Everywhere Pants to the office, to the kids' games, to just lounge around in. Just look at the reviews at CozyEarth.com. Men rarely rave about clothes, but they rave about these Everywhere Pants and request several pairs. They're stylish. They've got a light stretch, barely any wrinkles. Cozy Earth is the can't-miss gift for dads, stepdads, and grandpas who show up every day, everywhere.

0:44Cozy Earth's bamboo sheets, everywhere pant, and everyday polo are designed to keep him cool, comfortable, and relaxed all summer. Go to CozyEarth.com. Use my code CALM for an exclusive 20 % off. That's code CALM at CozyEarth.com for 20 % off, and let Cozy Earth know we sent you. so here's a killer idea to inspire curiosity and keep your kids brains learning in a fun way this summer i want you to sign up for a class at i excel.com slash kirk and for your child to sign up for one that way you are learning great alongside your child they can see you wrestling with ideas being curious and even asking them for help it's awesome modeling for your kids and it makes learning a family adventure, not something you make them do.

1:33IXL is an award-winning learning platform with an easy-to-navigate layout that uses interactive practice and step-by-step video tutorials that make it perfect for relaxed summer learning. So what class are you going to take this summer? Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. Calm Parenting Podcast listeners get an exclusive 20 % off an IXL membership when you sign up today at ixl.com slash Kirk. So visit ixl.com slash Kirk to get the most effective learning program at the best price. I'm here on a job site with Tim, who owns his own electrical contracting business. Three employees and two work trucks.

2:12Tim traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance. We're positively here where he needs us most. They sure are. With step-by-step help on all his insurance needs, all for shockingly low rates. Shockingly low, huh? It's just a little bit of electrician humor. Do you get it? I got it. You know, it feels like we have a real connection. All right, I'll stop. Get a commercial auto insurance quote today at Geico.com and see how much you could say it feels good to Geico. So when our strong-willed son Casey was about 10, I walked into his room one Friday evening and said, hey, Case, remember, you need to rake the leaves tonight.

2:45And his response was, of course, Father. I wasn't having a good time texting my friends or playing video games. I was hoping you would give me additional chores so I can learn the value of hard work and responsibility, sir. Yeah, that's not what he said. Some of you are lucky. You may have a more compliant child or you have perfect family members that have those kids that just comply right away. But here was our son Casey's response that particular evening. He didn't even look up at me. He just uttered, I don't have to. Oh, what are you going to do when your child is defiant and outright refuses to do what you ask.

3:27Look, I was raised with that authoritarian approach, but as you have discovered, that often causes our kids to go into fight or flight mode. But we don't want to make excuses or raise an entitled child or get walked all over. And you also don't want to be fearful of approaching these situations. So I want to show you a different way to handle this. And that is what we are going to discuss on today's episode of the Calm Parenting Podcast. So thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing this with others. This is Kirk Martin, founder of Celebrate Calm, and you can find us and our big summer sale at CelebrateCalm.com.

4:04So I shared this story last year on a podcast, but as I reviewed it, something interesting happened. I got new insights and it triggered all kinds of emotions from my own childhood. So I hope you'll find some new insights this time in case you've heard this story before. So let's roll through this. So I walk in and I'm like, hey, remember tonight you've got to rake the leaves. And Casey's response is, I don't have to. I want you to know that in that moment my initial immediate visceral instinct was to yank the cords out of his xbox And start yelling about all the sacrifices we've made so he could have a great life I never had to lecture him about all the things I do every single day That I don't want to do and talk about how bad my childhood was and what my father would have done to me if I had ever spoken to him like that.

5:02I wanted to do and say that. And in some ways, I could have felt justified with that reaction. Look, being calm doesn't mean you become some emotionless robot or fake person who's happy and grateful every minute. No, you should feel frustrated and worried and angry and overwhelmed. You just don't react out of those emotions because they always escalate situations. They rarely change the child's behavior, right? Unless you're just using fear to change the outward behavior for a period of time. And you end up ruining your relationship with your child. You become the one out of control and your child is now in control.

5:53So when I control myself and stop reacting, besides allowing my wife to finally breathe and not walk on eggshells, it helps me see situations more clearly so I can problem solve and so I can think straight. Look, it's what we do at work all the time, whether you're in business or let's say an ER doctor doesn't start freaking out when a patient is bleeding all over her room. She takes the vitals, assesses the situation, and then leads her team to heal the patient, to solve the problem. So before I share my response, let me address a few issues. Well, Kirk, if you have raised your son properly when he was young, he wouldn't have defied you like this.

6:37You know what? You're wrong. Because apparently you don't have a strong-willed child. This is part of the process of pushing, asserting their independence and figuring out where the boundaries are. And what I want you to know as a parent of one of these kids is just because they defy you doesn't mean you did something wrong or you're a bad parent. I'm tired of you getting judged by everybody. They just have easy, compliant kids because they're not capable of handling our kids. So I have no doubt, look, I have no doubt that you could apply enough fear and intimidation when kids are young so that they never speak up and you will get really good outward behavior.

7:21But you didn't change their heart. You will have just scared them into changing outward behavior. But now you've created a child who will get used by other people or marry a controlling spouse. How many of you did that? because they never learned how to speak up. See, if you're in that situation, you need your kids to behave because if they don't, you can't behave and control yourself. I have no interest in repeating my father's generational patterns. And if you use fear and intimidation with these kids, they will store up their anger inside, wait until they are bigger, and then it will come out with a vengeance.

8:08Sometimes boys will often sabotage themselves just to prove their dad was right. See, you know what? You always thought I was a loser. Guess what? Proud of yourself now? You don't want that. Now, as a society, we have swung all the way to the other extreme. So a parent now responds, oh honey, you've worked so hard this week. I'm sure you wouldn't talk to me like that unless you were dysregulated. Do you want to talk about your feelings? No, that sweet voice is condescending and patronizing. And this kid, whether three or 13, is going to look at you with disdain, thinking, do you really not know I was just defiant to your face that I am testing you?

8:59Well, Kirk, he wouldn't have responded like that unless he was upset or dysregulated. That's not true. I just did a podcast on how the underlying root of outward defiance can be anxiety. Listen to that. But in this case, there was nothing deeper that needed to be understood. Our son was simply testing the boundaries. He knew exactly what he was doing in that moment. and there's no shame in that. Kids are supposed to push and we're supposed to not be pushovers or bullies. So this story has a winding narrative with a lot of ups and downs, mainly downs, and a lot of decision points. I wouldn't handle it like this all the time, but I want to give you some additional tools in your parenting toolbox.

9:54So in this case, Casey was exhibiting outright defiance. I don't have to. For some reason that night, I didn't react. I stayed stoic, and I read the moment, and I decided to take a no-nonsense, tough approach to this. So I replied, okay, we've now established in our home we don't have to do things for each other. If that's how you want it to work, I'm cool with that. And I walked away and I went about my night. He walked away a little full of himself, which is natural for kids that age and especially for our strong-willed kids. And he was thinking, sweet, I just said no to my dad and didn't have to do my chores.

10:42So I went to bed with a plan. I knew the next morning Casey had a hockey game and he loved hockey. But I got up early the next morning because I knew what was coming. Look, if you're going to handle situations in a tough way where there's going to be conflict, I want you to make sure that you're emotionally ready because it's hard. Don't do this when you're tired and frustrated. It won't work. So I got up early. I went for a run. I ate a healthy breakfast. and I'm downstairs early reading paper in the living room like word cleaver, ready for it to happen. And I told my wife, hey, at some point, this might be one of those mornings when you want to go have coffee with one of your friends because it's about to get ugly, but I can handle this.

11:31And I'm not sure she believed me. So Casey comes marching down the stairs because Casey has never walked. He has always marched with a purpose. Hey, Dad, we have to go to the rink. I have a game this morning. And I didn't look up from my paper. I just casually responded, well, I don't have to take you. And Casey's response was, fair enough, Dad. You got me on that one. I guess I should have raked the leaves, huh? Of course he'd never say that. His response was, seriously? Seriously? You know how I say that. It's dripping with disdain, and inside you're either seething or just admiring the sheer brazenness of your kids.

12:17Seriously, Dad? All I did was not rake some leaves, and I replied very evenly, not in a snotty tone. I know, but we established last night that as a family, we don't have to do things for each other, and his response was, they're just stupid leaves. Now, why did he call my leaves stupid? Because we'd been so rigid, and he knew we don't use that word in our home, which guarantees that your kids are going to use that word in your home. Your kids know that, and they'll push that button every single time. Now, here's the thing. I knew that in some ways, my response was provocative, and I'm against provoking kids to anger, but I was fully in control of myself, and I wanted to use this to teach, not to punish or be snotty or prove my point or be the authority figure who's in charge.

13:16You know what's kind of funny looking back, but not in the moment? I got a little triggered when he called the leaves stupid. not because of the word but inside I was thinking I planted the tree that bore those leaves and you are not going to so don't take it personally now here's an interesting thought for you to consider and this will stretch and push you a little bit my child cannot disrespect me if I do not give him that power to do so. I don't take these things personally. Our son came out of the womb charging like a bull. It would have been weird if he hadn't pushed back. Once I stopped reacting and getting offended all the time, I could channel that energy of his in positive ways.

14:09I could soften the edges a bit so there was still enough edge to do amazing things in life without ruining his life or our relationship. So my wife hadn't left yet for some reason. So this was huge trigger. I hear him go to the kitchen and say, Mom, come on. He's being like this again. And I will tell you that triggered me almost through the roof. I heard my son refer to me as he and in a negative way as if those two my wife and son had been colluding for years behind my back talking about my penchant for losing it and now I felt shame and disrespect and if I can share something from my childhood I this just came up I remember I I referred to my dad once as he, and he ripped into me with both the belt and his words.

15:11But the worst part was the look in his eyes. It was pure fury. I was terrified. And now the moment is revisiting me 30 years later. No, that has to have been 50 years later. and I heard my wife say, you need to listen to your father. He loves you and so do you. So do I. I'm running late and she wisely disappeared. So what's his next go-to? Well, dad, what if I go out right now and I rake the leaves? Then can we go? No, Casey, that's not how it works. And I remember for the first time, really seeing the switch flip in his heart, in his tone, his body posture, in his face. So often before, I jumped up and reacted and used my size and my voice and my authority as the dad to shut this behavior down.

16:11I would get even more upset than him, and I'd missed this. I was so full of myself, my pride, my anger, my resentment, my ego, my inability to control my own emotions. And he was a mirror for that, that I missed really seeing my son in these moments. But this time I saw it happen. I saw the look in his eyes. and I have to tell you as I recall this it it it there's something in me that wants to cry I some sorrow and regret here Casey and I are so close now but when he was a little boy I would escalate and his little face would get red and his eyes would be aflame and I would be angry and I think it's because he was reflecting back to me all the feelings I had as a child and I needed to shut that down.

17:10But this time I saw the shame. I saw the anger turned inward. That moment, that realization that he was going to have to tell his coach he missed the game because of his choices. So I knew what was about to come. This is the shame-fueled eruption we talked about in that May 18th episode. So I encourage you to go back and listen to that on massive meltdowns. So here's what came out. This is stupid. You're stupid. Now I'm going to miss my game and let the team down and it's all your fault. You've heard that before, haven't you? Now look, there's a war going on inside my head here. Am I letting this kid get away with being disrespectful?

18:06What would my father have done? Are we teaching him it's okay to talk to people like this? Shouldn't I nip this in the bud? Am I teaching him to be an entitled kid? All of these conflicting thoughts and guilt and confusion are going to assault you. And in this moment, I had stuff from my childhood coming back to me. Am I replicating what my dad did to me? But for once, I didn't react because I knew he wasn't angry at me. He was angry at himself. He thought he was getting away with not raking the leaves, but now it's dawning on him that he made a big mistake and he's embarrassed. So guess what he does next?

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21:40Head to Wayfair.com slash m slash outdoor right now to get your outdoor space ready for way less. That's W-A-Y-F-A-R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. So Casey stomps up the stairs and slams the bedroom door. Why? Because that was another trigger of mine. Usually he knew it would elicit the old, I work hard every day to make money to pay for that door. you don't have to respect me young man but you will respect my door and I know he was expecting me to barge in and lecture him you know what if you would have simply done what I asked you to do we could have avoided all this how are you ever going to be successful in life if you don't listen to people and this is when it would usually go sideways and I put my wife in this awful position of having to be the referee between an upset child and the husband she married who still acted like a child sometimes and that was awful of me to do and I know many of you are in that situation.

22:42Does this mean I was sitting there happy and content? No. I was torn up inside. I could feel the resentment toward my son for making life so difficult because he wouldn't do the simple effing things that I asked. I could feel that. It made me angry after how patient we were with him and we bent over backwards to make his life great, and this is how he responds, I felt like I should go up and set him straight. I mean, that's what you do, right? That's all waging a war against this new part of me that was saying, this is an opportunity to teach and to bond with the son you love. It was like having that thing of the devil on one shoulder screaming in my ear and the angel whispering into the other.

23:35So I'm sitting reading my paper trying to hold it together, only I'm not really reading because there's part of me that just wants to go get it over with and be done. Just go yell at him, tell him to get his stuff and take him to the rink and get on with the day because conflict is hard. I grew up in a home in which conflict wasn't just words. It was my mom being hit, and I can still to this day hear the horrifying sound of her helpless screams. So I don't like conflict. I could make all of this go away and be the hero if I just took him, and then we could rake the leaves later. And I don't blame you if you do that sometimes but I chose to sit in my discomfort so then he comes pouting and stomping down the stairs muttering stupid leaves I don't know why it's such a big deal now my coach is going to be upset and it was kind of a passive aggressive way to get me to react or give in and take him and in this moment it took all my self-control not to say in a snotty tone if you would have just done what I asked you, but that would be selfish because it would feel satisfying to me to say that, but it would drive his anger further down inside.

25:00That would have been my own pettiness as a parent, my own passive aggressive way of saying, look at how you've ruined this day. You're making me so uncomfortable being mad at me. Again, the fear. Am I repeating what my dad did to me here, even though I love this kid so much. Look, you're making me so uncomfortable, I'm going to lash out at you. But that would have perpetuated a hurtful cycle. You've been there before, the hurtful words, the regret, the sleepless nights. So he says, fine, I'll go rake your stupid leaves. Well, that's his final little last gasp, right? A final attempt to bait and trigger me.

25:47And again, I had every right to jump off the sofa right then and there and destroy him with my words. But you just have to grow up and be patient, play the long game. It's not worth the ego satisfaction in the moment. So I didn't say anything. So he goes to the garage, gets the rake, goes out to the backyard, still pouting. And now I look out the window. What's he doing? He's not just raking up my leaves. He's raking so hard, he's pulling up my grass. And for some reason, that made me furious. Look, he's messing with my sense of order. He's not doing it the right way. And you're supposed to do everything the right way.

26:29Because, well, because if I did everything the right way as a kid, then my dad would be nicer to me. And I could go through a day without an upset stomach wondering when the fury would come. And I could feel my face getting red. I could feel those waves of anger and sadness and confusion and dealing with that stuff from my childhood in the moment while I'm dealing now with my own child. And I can hear people saying, but you're being too soft. You're letting him get away with things. And my response is, wait just wait till the end here he's not getting away with anything he's raking the leaves well actually my yard and he's missing his game he's learning where the boundaries are but i'm not reaming or shaming him but my primary goal isn't really to teach him a lesson it's something larger than that so after a few minutes when i've calmed down i grab a rake i head to the backyard and i I begin raking leaves the proper way, of course.

27:37So I rake up the leaves without saying a word while he was raking up my dirt. So I decided to break the ice. Hey, Case, remember when you were little, we used to rake up the leaves into a big pile and jump in them? You want to do that? And do you know what my son did to me in this moment? After I had tried a peace offering, he turned his back to me. is one of the highest forms of disrespect you can show to another human being. He knew he could trigger me without saying a word. And to this day, I am proud of myself for not cracking him over the head with that rake because those things go through your head, right?

28:19Never, ever do that, obviously. Now, I had a decision to make. Again, conflicting emotions inside. Inside, I was like, F it. I've been patient enough. this is too much and that's understandable but I can feel myself inside kind of choking up for some reason I think it's because look for so long I didn't handle these situations well and it nearly cost me my relationship with my son and some of you are close to losing your kids and your spouse. Do not go down that path. Look, you never stop being a parent. One of the most gratifying parts of life now is when my grown son texts or calls and says, Dad, I could really use your advice.

29:09That is a huge high as a parent, and I almost blew that. I almost did what my dad did to me, and I'm so glad I didn't. You know what Casey got me for my birthday and Father's Day? he's organizing and taking me on an extended hiking trip for a couple weeks this summer just the two of us my grown son my grown son wants to spend time with me even after our early years and all that happened and we are so close I think partly because we fought through this so hard together. He did hard work. I did hard work. There is an enormous amount of respect between us precisely because we're so much alike. So we know how hard it is not to be a jerk to each other.

29:59There's something beautiful and deep in that. And I don't want you to miss out on that. It's just so hard with a strong willed child, your families and friend and church, and even your spouse may judge you and you have to work through your own childhood trauma and issues to break these patterns but it's worth it now the good news is you don't have to do the extremes i was raised listening to people saying you had to break a child's will after as if there's some animal right if you're not being an authoritarian dictator then you're not disciplining your kids and some have swung too far the other way and now you're getting walked all over and i hope what you find in our approach is.

30:38It's right in between. We get to be the calm, authoritative leaders that your kids trust, who can de-escalate situations, teach instead of punish. You can have firm boundaries, and you can have that close connection. So I began raking the leaves up into a pile, and I will tell you this was very humbling, and in some ways at the time, it felt humiliating. Why am I doing this? He should be the one apologizing to me right now. But you know if you demand an apology, you'll just get a forced apology from these kids. So I humbled myself because humility breaks down walls. It is a powerful force, and it will lead to contrition.

31:21I don't know why that just triggered me inside a little bit. It's that I think it's that our kids build up these walls inside, and we try to like pound them down and we try to reason with them and it doesn't work but it is sometimes it is sometimes that humility that softens them that they pick up on that inside of us and I remember I put my rake down and this was hard for me as a son of a career military father that war kept raging the doubt seeping in but I did it and then I ran and I jumped into that pile of leaves and I felt like an idiot. I'm staring up the sky like whose stupid idea was this calm thing and I'm lying there in these leaves which happen to be wet underneath and I'm sensory like your kids so I detest the feel of the wet leaves on my skin and it's irritating me and so I'm feeling a little stupid now like like I really have taken this too far and being so understanding of my child.

32:23I'm lying in the wet leaves while my son is now raking up the dirt in my formerly beautiful lawn and I wait and then I see it I see my son put his rake down that's the moment and I've told this story for 15 years and every time this part gets me because see that moment my son put his raked down, that was the moment. That was what I was looking for. That's when his heart changed. That is him humbling himself. That's my peace offering being accepted. That's when inside he said, it's time to stop punishing my dad for a choice I made. It's time to stop punishing myself by letting my pride keep me from my dad.