Practical Ways to Establish Boundaries & Stay Connected With Really Intense Kids #567

20:15Alanna Leavell:Hey, can we get a little personal for a sec? Have you and I didn't wait for you to respond. We're just going to slide right in. That was a rhetorical question. So you and Mrs. Calm, which is genius, by the way, ever not on the same page with Casey?

20:36Milano Buckley:Well, I think she always knew because I'm a guy, I instinctively know how to do relationships right. So I'm kidding. I was watching your face. You know what the hardest part was? Casey, our strong-willed son, we have the same energy. And so I could see him a mile away walking into a room because these strong-willed kids have this look in their eyes And I was like, I was like yelling in slow motion to my wife, like, don't react. He's coming for you. And she was like, why don't you stop him? And I'm like, because it's not my job to change the kid. Right. I mean, we change behavior. Right. But I'm like, you have to change how you interact with him.

21:22Milano Buckley:That part, my background with my dad, who is kind of abusive, was not helpful for him. But what was helpful was I got early on our son's intensity. And so I was like, honey, he responds to intensity. Quick one. So he would come to the room, eyes on fire, wanting to argue. And so for years, I would respond to, you can't talk to your father like that, all those things. So one day I apologized and I said, Casey, I need to apologize to you because for years, you've come into the room and done this. And I have given you my intense emotional engagement because that's what kids, kids aren't looking for, for your attention.

22:05Milano Buckley:They want that intense engagement, especially like it's a dopamine head. Yeah, absolutely. And your adopted kids and kids with attachment disorders, this is really interesting and important. They don't distinguish between negative and positive intensity. All they know is if I do something wrong, my mom and dad put their phones down, look at me, look at me. And what that registers as a lot of these kids is I'm at least important enough for you to yell at me. So I apologized and I said, I know exactly what you're looking for. You're looking in our terms, it would be brain stimulation. You want my intense emotion.

22:46Milano Buckley:I'm not going to give it to you in the courtroom. I'm not arguing. I'm not going to yell anymore. If you want to go out to the garage and help me with X. If you want to go play, learn a new Zeppelin song on your guitar, oh, let's go do that. I will give you my intensity in these three different ways. But I'm just not doing the courtroom. I'm not going to argue with you.

23:06Alanna Leavell:I love what you say. The you don't talk to me that way is about respect, right? And how you say, well, you don't have to respect me because I respect myself. I have so much respect for myself. So I don't need your respect. But the way the world works is if you want me to take you to hockey practice, you're probably going to want to speak to me in a nicer way because I don't roll. That's not how I roll. I love when you say that. So I've been adopting a lot of that. And then there are these moments where I'm like, but actually, you really can't talk to me that way. You know, I do struggle with this sometimes with applying your wisdom to these real life situations.

23:44Alanna Leavell:At the end of the day, I'm still the captain steering this ship and I'm still your guide in this world. And it's my job, A, to keep you safe, to keep you healthy, but also to impart some wisdom that I have, being alive for 45 years, to you about how the world works and how you can't talk to grownups that way. And you can't call people fat and you can't make fun of other cultures. And I mean, this is my job as your captain. So how do you square guiding versus control?

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25:34Milano Buckley:You know, honey, if you talk to people like that, it's like, eh. One of my favorite phrases, especially as kids get older, is, hey, here's something I found in life. when you talk to people in that way, probably going to reject you. You said imparting wisdom. I like planting a lot of seeds. Just talk to them just like you said it there. Hey, this is how it's going to work in the real world. If you talk to other people in that tone, you will get rejected. You will get fired. They will not do things for you. And that's kind of short and sweet. I guess the balance for me is that most of the kids, strong will kids, they tend to know that.

26:11Milano Buckley:They're really good for other people. They just tend to be horrible for us. Right now, some of our kids aren't, but I, some of it, they will learn from life experience and sort of like, well, I didn't get to, I didn't get chosen. Okay. So what happened there? And I can take them through and say, well, it's because you were demanding and people don't like when people are demanding. Can I show you a different way? See that the tone is still, I'm teaching, I'm imparting. I love the self-respect thing of like, hey, you can talk to me like that way if you want. Just nothing's going to go well for you.

26:47Milano Buckley:Here's what I know. The last 43 times you use that tone, you are anxious, frustrated, or you're hungry. Because see, that relates to that trigger board. And so helping them identify their triggers, not like, oh, well, do you want to talk about your feelings? I'm not opposed to talk about feelings, but I'd rather say, hey, that tone usually tells me you're anxious about something or something happened with you and your girlfriends at school today. I'm going with older kids. I like that kind of takeaway. It's not like, Oh, do you want to talk right now? I'd really like to talk right now. It's something's going on.

27:24Milano Buckley:I've got to go get started on dinner. If you want to come grab me later, I've got a few thoughts that I'd like to share with you. They tend to receive it when they come to you, even if they say, okay, mom, what are your stupid thoughts? Right. And then you have to not be offended, but they're opening their heart rather than, I can't believe that you would talk to me like that. If you talk to other people in life like that, they're just going to, they tune out at that point. Does that make sense? Yeah.

27:56Alanna Leavell:Can you say a little bit more about areas where it's, it's, it's helpful to deliver wisdom to the kids. Like, I love what you say about like, it doesn't have to be like you're sitting down at a conference table. It could be when you're driving in the car, you know, when you're recalling things from what's gone on during the day over the past few days. I think that's, I found that really helpful. Could you speak a little bit to that? Yeah, you guys have such a good question. You're just building us up, Kirk. So nice of you.

28:21Milano Buckley:No, that's not building you up. It's true. And that's important is that praise and an apology are the same thing. It's an acknowledgement of truth. You guys are very good at this and being curious. And that's why people love your podcast. That's not flattery. That's just true. Now, if I say you are the most amazing women I have ever met, that's untrue. But you are amazing, just not the most amazing. But so I forgot your question.

28:47Alanna Leavell:Oh, just yeah. Like when to deliver this wisdom to kids.

28:51Milano Buckley:Okay. Everybody tells you when kids are upset, get down, look them in the eyes. There's way too much being processed right then. and then. So that's why I like, hey, if you want to come color, build with Legos. We have amazing talks with people while we're driving in the car, precisely because we're not like, let's sit down, let's have a deep talk about your behavior. I like to do it on walks, on drives, with older kids. This is a weird one, with teenagers, take them out on a school night some night, like when it's start like nine o 'clock, go to a Taco Bell, go to IHOP, go to a local Wings place.

29:32Milano Buckley:The drive in the dark just helps them not feel like you're staring at me. Plus, teens already feel awkward enough. And doing something later at night, the inhibitions are down. I had the best talks with our son late at night when we were out and about. It's worth missing a little sleep to do that. But with little kids, a toddler, I don't sit them down and time out and look at them in the eyes and say, you're going to sit here because they're going to be like, good luck keeping me in this seat. And it tends to escalate. So yeah, I do a lot of sit and color and talk that works with a four year old, a 14 year old.

30:14Milano Buckley:I do a lot of building with Legos because I'm doing something with my hands. I'm not looking at them in the eyes, but there's always an invitation. I like the invitation when you're ready, I'm willing to discuss this. And I like doing stuff in the garage, cooking. Many of your kids, they're not going to clean up or follow a recipe, but many of your ADD kids love to cook. So hands and stuff, very sensory, perfect time. Because now you're like, hey, pass me the flour, grab that. And so you're having this discussion while you're doing other things and it helps them process with your spouse. Never talk to your husband and say, honey, we need to sit down and have a talk about our relationship.

31:01Milano Buckley:I will literally start a fire in the house. But if you were to say, hey, I'm going to go for a walk. Will you come walk with me and talk about a couple of things? You know what it is for us as guys? We already often feel like we're and just not good at this relationship stuff because we're not. And so when we're talking to you and I read your face and I read the disappointment on your face, I just wanted to swear there. I just wanted to say, F it.

31:29Alanna Leavell:Yeah. It's like immediate shutdown. You met my dad? Yeah, I shut down. My best conversations with my husband and most productive are when we are in the car, like on a long drive to dinner or whatever. I've been going about it all wrong because my instincts with my husband are like, we got to talk. Like, I'm just, I'm going at it wrong. Like exactly what you're saying not to do. I'm like, listen, we really have some stuff to get into. And he does, I can see his face. He's like, armor up, armor up. Okay, all systems. We're going into battle.

32:04Milano Buckley:It feels overwhelming. And the inherent feeling is I'm in trouble. I did something wrong. And not just that. I don't know what the heck to do differently. This is the way I am. I did want to, since you asked me a personal question and disregarded it because you were going to ask anyway, I'll mention something personally for you two. Now, Milano, you have a very strong personality. I do. To me. I do. I would want to talk to you while we were doing something else because you're kind of strong. My energy is so intense. Yeah. Now, Alana, you're like sweet. I could probably hand, you know, I'm not kidding.

32:44Milano Buckley:Know your own personality. And like, Alana, I could probably have a little bit more of like, you could disarm me more with, hey, I've been really thinking some things that I need to work on. And I was wondering, and I'd be like, okay, we can do that. And Alana, you'd be more like, hey, this isn't working. You need to go for a drive.

33:04Alanna Leavell:Yeah.

33:05Milano Buckley:And I'd be like, cool.

33:06Alanna Leavell:Just like embrace who we are as partners. Yeah. Sibling relationships have fascinated me ever since I became a mom. I'm an only child who had three kids and their conflicts when they were little are the whole reason that I started to venture into the parenting self-help world. I found a lot of your tips extremely helpful. I love the one of, you know, you hear them launching into a battle and just kind of rolling into the room with a light touch like, hey guys, you need me to get involved here? You're going to handle it yourself. That's been effective for me. But in my particular setup, I have a strong-willed child who is incredibly hard on one of the other kids.

33:52Alanna Leavell:And it stops me up on a regular basis. It doesn't feel like typical sibling stuff. It feels like inter-family bullying and cruelty. and I'm wondering if you could give me a few tips on dealing with that situation. Good.

34:10Milano Buckley:So two things and then two more. One is for all the moms and dads, siblings are supposed to fight. Like it's just since the beginning of time. Yeah, my husband says that to me. I'm like - They're supposed to fight. Like put three people in a room for a period of time and we're going to get on each other's nerves. So I just want you to know as moms, like not doing something wrong, it's normal. I think in what you just described with, I think your strong-willed son is, it's not even a sibling issue. It's a confidence issue, right? Like I, and I'm not saying this is your son in general with a strong-willed kids.

34:41Milano Buckley:It's, I'm the one who tends to be in trouble a little bit more. I'm the black sheep of the family. Everybody likes the other kid, the siblings more. Well, of course, because they're easier. And so there's this like defensive nature in there. Well, what am I going to do? I'm going to pick on the good, the good child, right? I'm going to be like, I'm going to take out my resentment. so I don't even view that most sibling issues I think are either boredom so boredom and brain stimulation I'm bored I poke my brother so that's not a sibling issue that's a stimulate the brain issue and in this one I think it's a confidence issue so I'd say two things if we build his confidence here's a weird one I would see if you have this available in your neighborhood ask like an older couple I like using older couples because they've got time and they're not usually creepy and weird and they're affirming and they're really good at handling strong-willed kids.

35:34Milano Buckley:See if you can get an older couple or someone down the street to invite the strong-willed child down and say, hey, I could really use your help. You've got a lot of energy. You're good at doing this and have them make up a job. And even if you have to pay the old people like 10 or 20 bucks to pay your son, worth it. Now what happens? Your son goes down to this other couples or it could be someone at school, in the community, a friend that you have that they go over and rake the leaves, whatever it is. Now another adult is saying, hey, well, you're really helpful. You're really good at this. Do you think you could help me with X and Y?

36:07Milano Buckley:Well, strong-willed kids tend not to get a lot of positive affirmation because they're not usually good at behavior or school. And those are the two things we want them to be good at. But now I've got this, some other people saying, I'm really good at this. And having some kind of job outside the home, even if they're like eight, it's their own space. And I know parents think this is weird. Man, I would use that older couple because you've got three kids. And so to be able to say, hey, we did this with an older couple in Nashville when we lived there with our son. When your child goes down to their house, it's like, I don't have competition there.

36:48Milano Buckley:It's just this old couple and me and they will dote on him. They also will not be afraid to say, hey, your mom said you've been mouthing off a little bit lately. You got to cut that out, kid, or you're not coming to our house. And that child who will never say yes, ma 'am or yes, sir, to you as parents will say, yeah, I'll stop that because they like that time. I like space. It's like our morning routine thing with a strong willed child of like throw some food outside and have them forage for their food. they'll sit outside in the morning, eat their food alone. And then you and your two easy kids can enjoy breakfast without all the noise and complaining of that child.

37:25Milano Buckley:There's nothing wrong, moms and dads, with giving kids some space apart where they have their space in place. Like, this is where I'm good at doing the world. And then when they come back in, that will alleviate some of it, if that makes sense. That's helpful.

37:49All right.

37:49Alanna Leavell:Are you ready for like an intense lightning round? And then we're going to let you go.

37:53Milano Buckley:This whole interview has felt like an intense lightning round. Well, then you're so conditioned.

37:59Alanna Leavell:You're going to be awesome at this.

38:01Milano Buckley:I'm going to take a nap after this. Go for it.

38:04Alanna Leavell:All right. The thing from your own childhood that you project onto Casey.

38:09Milano Buckley:Oh, just purely my dad. My dad's response. just always never happy with him always kind of disappointed and angry what i did before i changed

38:18Alanna Leavell:for sure the thing that you were or still are laziest about as a parent uh i'd say thing i don't

38:28Milano Buckley:care about so much would be um music because i was raised kind of fundamentalist in a way and so can i tell you this quickly i took casey proudest moment he's 10 starts playing ice hockey comes home with Metallica. I was raised like, you're going to worship the devil and go to hell. And so I bought him tickets to see Metallica at age 10. He just bought me tickets and took me to see Metallica two nights show 20 years later.

38:54Alanna Leavell:Coolest bonding. Wow, that's awesome. When you were talking about that, I just had the image of Kevin Bacon in Footloose. Have you ever seen that movie where his dad is a minister and it's like my first date

39:05Milano Buckley:when I was 16?

39:06Alanna Leavell:Oh, you did?

39:08Milano Buckley:Oh, it didn't go well.

39:10Alanna Leavell:The last parenting battle you had with Mrs. Calm.

39:14Milano Buckley:I would say it was over allowing a teenage boy to be a teenage boy. I pulled my man card. He's a teenage boy. If he's not vaping and doing all these other things, I'm pretty happy. Yeah.

39:33Alanna Leavell:The parenting thing you knew was bad, but did it anyway. Let's talk about post-change. Kirk 2.0.

39:41Milano Buckley:Oh, post-change. I think the thing that took the longest was the lecturing, the life lesson, going on and on and on. Dad, I got it. Got it, Dad. Got it. I was like, apparently you don't got it because you're not changing. Right, right. So you just need to keep talking.

39:56Alanna Leavell:It's like, well, I'm just going to keep talking until you change. Yeah. Your most annoying parent chore. Do you remember? Probably don't have any parenting chores anymore.

40:05Milano Buckley:Yeah. You know, it was probably at first it was just the endless waiting of doing. Oh, you know what it was? Mindless, stupid stuff. Like when Casey was little, like, Daddy, you want to play cars? I don't know. Is there a purpose to this? Like, it's really hard. As a dad, I had a hard time with that one.

40:25Alanna Leavell:Yeah, I'm not so great at like on the floor playtime.

40:27Milano Buckley:Now I realize I was just a jerk.

40:30Alanna Leavell:Kirk, you've been amazing. Thank you so much for your generosity of time and candor and for indulging my intensity.

40:40Milano Buckley:There's no indulging. You guys are awesome. Thank you for doing. I listened to your podcast. You were so good and so helpful for parents. And I just appreciate what you're doing. So keep doing that with intensity and sweetness.

40:53Alanna Leavell:Thanks so much, Kirk. I loved meeting you. Right back at you, Kirk. Thank you.

40:56Milano Buckley:All right. Thanks, guys. Bye.

41:01Alanna Leavell:Well, that was pretty big for you. Kirk is like your parenting world guru, right? He is, yes. He is like a celebrity for me. It's like, you know, you hear someone's voice. Like, I don't know, like if you listen to a news program every day and you like see that person off the, it's like, what? Oh my gosh, I'm actually talking to you. It's you. It's you. It's me and it's you and we're talking. Yeah. It was very cool. Yeah. And he was so cool and gracious and like a total pro. He was lovely. Yeah. Yeah. This is kind of a basic observation, but I have to say that while I'm all about girl power, it's very refreshing to hear a guy hosting a parenting podcast, you know, just talking like a guy.

41:41Alanna Leavell:I totally agree. I think that, you know, I think most of these experts today, you know, Dr. Becky, Dr. Aliza, like I think a lot of them are saying different versions, slightly different versions of the same like truths and concepts. And I think that it's all about delivery and packaging. And I think the way that Kirk delivers and packages just really resonates because he's such a straight shooter and it's so practical. And it's like, I've been there. Like I'm not actually a shrink. I'm not actually, you know, I don't have like a PhD in early childhood development. Like I'm not coming from textbooks.

42:23Alanna Leavell:I'm not coming from academic training or even clinical training. Like I am coming to you as a parent who figured this out and wants to share what I figured out. And I'm just going to talk to you straight because I've been exactly where you are. Exactly. And so that like that empathy and that compassion and that that sense that he has literally been like walked in our shoes. And the way that he's able to communicate that I think is so like comforting, reassuring and connecting and empowering. It's, it's, I don't think you can overemphasize how practical it is. It's like, here are the words you should say in this moment.

43:04Alanna Leavell:Do not say this, say this instead. And that's really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. We also always talk about how there's a lot of parenting advice out there. But then there are those bare and naked moments when everything you can think of isn't working. And it's like, what now? And he gives such clear direction for those exact moments. Without any judgment, like without any charge, no judgment. No, I mean, I don't know no one outwardly judges, but it's like, he's like, just so committed to like, making it good and right. You know? Yeah. I love that it's like that he, I mean, talk about bare and naked. He's like so on brand.

43:41Alanna Leavell:I mean, he, this whole professional existence for him came, you know, was born of this incredibly bare and naked transformation that he had when his son was nine. Yeah. Which he doesn't, he talks a lot about in his podcast, but didn't, we didn't really get into it here. But basically he was, you know, of the, the former, he was in the former category of like, you don't talk to me that way. You respect me. like the old school, like authoritarian parent, because he was raised in this military household and that's what he was getting. And his whole thing is like breaking patterns, reparenting yourself.

44:18Alanna Leavell:And he did that. And I just, anyone who's like doing that work and bleeding and sweating it out, it has my utmost respect. Agreed. All right, everybody. Thanks so much for joining us. As always, we love you. We thank you. And we'll see you next week. Thank you.