Q&A With Casey: How Do You Repair Feeling Like “The Bad Kid”? #633

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2:01And please tell CozyEarth the Calm Parenting Guy sent you.

2:05Casey:I'm super excited to have Casey here again for our second Q &A episode. I actually just saw the questions that he's going to answer a few minutes ago. I think there's a lot of really good insight. So let's just jump into this. Casey, what encouraged you the most as a preteen boy? What did your parents do during that time that made a positive impression on you? Yeah, I think the biggest thing was just rewarding me when I actually was responsible. I remember having a much earlier curfew than all of my friends, which made me kind of, I was really annoyed with that. And I wanted a later curfew. And so I started to come home, text my dad early, text my mom early, come home early if I was already in the neighborhood.

2:52And the idea of that was kind of to prove to you guys that I could control myself and that I was going to be responsible with the limitations I already had. And so the thing that I think you all did really, really well was you actually rewarded that. You gave me a later curfew because you realized that I was going to be responsible within your current boundaries. so then you could give me a little bit of a longer kind of leash with it, and then I would be responsible with that. And then I just continued that, and it continued to kind of go that way.

3:27Casey:Yeah, I remember at the time thinking, okay, why does he keep coming home early? And my first thought was, he's just being manipulative. But I think it was really smart because he was demonstrating, and this is what he, when Casey used to do school assemblies, was, hey, kids, if you learn how to control yourself, then your parents won't have to. And with your strong will kids, to me, that gave Casey a lot of ownership to know my actions directly impact the reward I got, which was a later curfew. So yeah, you did that. You did that one really well. Yeah. I think that taking an interest in my interests, even though they were very different from your own.

4:11I was super into cars as a teenager, and you would take me to the car dealerships, we would test drive cars, we would just look at cool cars, go to car shows, all that kind of stuff. And I knew you didn't like it. And I knew you weren't into cars. So there was a bit of sacrifice there that I noticed on your part. And the other thing with that was that there wasn't really an agenda. It was just time for us to hang out and explore and chat about whatever was on our minds without it being like, hey, I'm taking you out and I'm going to teach you a lesson every single time. So that was huge. Acknowledging that I didn't need to do my best at absolutely everything.

4:53I think it's kind of discouraging as a kid when you feel like, okay, well, maybe I'm not good at math and I don't like math, but my parents want me to do my absolute best in every single thing. So just acknowledging like, okay, hey, you're really good at X, Y, and Z. You don't love math. You're not great at math. So you can do what you need to do to get by and work harder on the things that you are going to love and use in your life. So just acknowledging that not everything is the most important thing in the world.

5:27Casey:Can I ask you a quick question? Yeah. Did you realize that at the time or do you realize that more now that that was a good choice because then we didn't spend endless time on things that you would probably never be good at? Like, do you remember at all? I never remember, but I think a lot of this is hindsight. It's like you don't even like I don't I don't think I truly appreciated all of these things when I was younger. OK. I'm like noticing it now what I'm thankful for that you all did as parents. OK, good. Um, and then I think, um, you were really, you, you were really good about getting me involved in things that I loved doing.

6:05Um, I, I played hockey and then ended up starting to officiate ice hockey. Um, and you got me internships with minor league hockey teams where I had responsibilities and I was accountable to other adults. And I think that taught me a ton. and it also gave me my own space outside of the home. I was accountable to other adults. I was getting feedback from other adults, both positive and negative. So I knew it was like more neutral than your, it was better than your feedback. But that was huge. And then I think I learned a lot of other things from that. Like you had mentioned early on when I started officiating ice hockey, like get up early I'll take you um get up early and take the games that no one else wants to officiate the 6 a.m games in the middle of winter when it's cold and then if you do that you'll have a reward later on you're gonna get to work whatever game you want and that was that was really true like I ended up having a lot of freedom over my schedule because of that and got a lot of responsibility.

7:16And from that, I got a lot of affirmation that I was doing well and learned that I was actually decent at memorizing information.

7:26Casey:Okay, that's good insight. Here's another question. And by the way, thank you to all of you who emailed Casey with questions. So at what age did you become aware of your personality, of your strong will? How did you experience yourself and whatever chaos you lived as a young child as far as back, as far back as you can remember and then kind of onward. Yeah, I think the first experience was with a kindergarten teacher. She gave us an assignment to like, there was like a sheet of paper with a drawing on it. And then our job was to like color within the lines. And I flipped it over and I made my own drawing on the other side, on the blank side of the piece of paper.

8:06And she held up my drawing in front of the whole class and said it was an example of what not to do. and that's probably when I began to push back and be like intentionally provocative. I mean it was embarrassing to have the project held up in front of the entire class and then like why is this an example of what not to do? Like and it's it's kind of amazing how some of these like early experiences lead you into believing like that the school doesn't care about creativity or that no one does and they just want you to follow directions and then you just are pushing back on that.

8:42Casey:Yeah, and that was like... And that was in kindergarten. That's 27 years ago, and it's still visceral. If I asked... I know her name. We won't go there. We won't go there. Okay, this is really good. How should parents handle it when their child makes a choice they strongly disagree with? Okay. I think when they make a choice you strongly disagree with, the goal is usually to protect the relationship without pretending you approve of the decision. Hold on, it's going to happen a lot. Can I say that again? Because I thought that was super insightful. The goal is to protect the relationship without pretending you approve of the decision.

9:24Casey:I thought that was really good insight. Okay, so how do you do that? Good question. And I think how much control a parent is going to take over the situation depends on how old the child is and like what does the choice involve genuine danger or is it just something that you kind of like you disagree with and you don't see the same way? Like me going to drink and drive. Like is that like, you know, prom. Do you remember that? Yeah, you do remember that. Tell me about that. I did tell you about that. We'll get to that later. No, but like you're going to have more control when it's, you know, something more serious.

10:05Um, so, but as, as kind of generally I'd say, number one, I'd listen before you react, ask what led them to the decision that they made and try to understand what they value fear they're hoping to gain from their decision. Um, I think when they feel understood, it makes it more likely that they'll listen to you in return rather than just if you're reacting right away. um two i'd try to separate the disagreement uh from rejection rejection um like saying i don't agree with your choice but i love you and i want us to be able to talk i'm gonna talk i'm gonna work through this with you um so that they're not taking it kind of as a personal rejection um explaining your concerns clearly and specifically um focus on realistic and likely consequences of their actions, um, rather than kind of like character judgments, like you're always irresponsible or like you're doing this to ask, um, match your response to the level of risk, you know, with a young kid, um, parents need to set firm limits around safety, health, if it's school attendance or, you know, other more serious stuff, um, then you're probably going to have to take more more control um with an older child with a teenager or an adult child then you're gonna have to allow for more autonomy even if you think the decision's a mistake um i like natural consequences a lot um so let like the reasonable natural consequences of their actions teach them instead of like like you don't have to rescue your kid from an uncomfortable result if they make a choice good to do so um and then i think just like keeping the door open um a kid who knows they can come back without hearing i told you so like this is the big one because your kids are going to make mistakes um we can go back to the prom story now what's the problem which is i did what every teenager does and i went to prom and i got hammered and you know i felt like I could come home and tell my parents because they had created an environment in which I knew I would have consequences.

12:27But I also knew I could tell them what I did without them overreacting and it turning into a whole character battle. Right. If that makes sense.

12:37Casey:Yes. And what did you learn from that? I mean, I learned about hangovers. I learned about the police showed up. So that was cool. I guess there was no way of avoiding telling my parents when the police showed up. But I'm honest. You weren't honest. No, I was honest about it. But that was partially because you created an environment in which I could be honest about it. So, but, but, but. No, I would do it. We're arguing over. There's a point here that I saw in his notes that he skipped. And I think it's really important to say. Yes. So if you want to. OK, no, I'll do it. avoid using love, money, silence, and humiliation as punishment for an ordinary disagreement.

13:25What did you find helpful about that?

13:28Casey:I think it's in the experience. Like I hike with Casey and his friends and I hear their stories of how that is used. I mean, my dad used that on us. Like he held money over us. So is that hard for you not to do with me? No, because he was kind of an a-hole. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, that wasn't, like, you should know not to do that. But you hear people still doing that of, like, we heard that major. Yeah, they might not be listening to the podcast, though. Yeah, yeah. I hope not. So, but yeah, I just thought it was important because that can sneak in that resentment as a parent of like, whoa, yeah.

14:09Casey:Well, if you're going, a lot of people do it in belief systems, whether it's kind of like with your religious beliefs, and it gets so entangled. I'll just share this quickly. Casey struggled a lot with the way we were kind of raising him. And that's actually led us to change a lot of our beliefs. But we had these really open discussions about it, and it actually helped all of us. So I just I guess I affirm your point of having open, honest discussions without manipulation. Yeah, that's huge. And I think if the it's like going back to the what kind of issue it is, if it's an issue about like values, career, relationships, lifestyle, then I'd say preserving the connection and respecting their autonomy matters more than winning the argument.

14:58Okay, good.

14:59Casey:So how can parents kind of thread that needle of having the difficult discussion without shutting everything down or making the child feel like they're a horrible kid? Yeah, I think respect is the basic part. So it's something like, I respect that this is your decision. I disagree with your decision. And I want you to understand why I disagree with your decision. But whatever happens, I want us to keep talking and I want to understand why you're making this decision and make a genuine effort to understand why they are making the decision they're making. So be curious without the only intention being like, I need to change your mind because that opens up everything.

15:41Casey:Okay. This is kind of related. What causes kids to lie and avoid talking to their parents? You know, I love my routines and no stress. And what we have noticed most with Hungry Root is that we're more consistent with eating healthy. We don't stress over dinner time anymore, and we're not spending as much money going out for dinner. Hungry Root is just really easy. We really love the sous vide chicken and beef. It is unbelievably tender and juicy and fresh, perfect portion size, with amazing sauces, so I can make dinner that's honestly more delicious than most restaurants, with healthy ingredients at a fraction of the cost in less than 15 minutes with virtually no cleanup.

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17:13Casey:We like Wayfair because they have everything we need in one place. furniture, cookware, appliances, bedding, decor. No need to shop at multiple stores. And they have 20 million verified five-star reviews so we can quickly find what we need, discover new ideas, and get things shipped to us fast and free, all for a really good price. Transform your space with pieces that hold up to real life. Join Wayfair Rewards today and get 5 % back on every purchase. Head to Wayfair.com or shop the Wayfair app for all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Way fair, every style, every home. Yeah, my wife grew up in a really conservative religious family, and she would always say that the control and strict rules breed rebellion and deceit.

18:04And I tend to agree with that. This is a fantastic piggyback on the last question, so a few other kind of thoughts on this. overreacting or reacting disproportionately to the problem at hand like that that's a huge one punishing your kids for telling the truth I think this happens pretty often we got an email about it yesterday where a kid there was a situation where the child knew that they made a mistake and they were honest and they went to the parents and told the parents about the mistake and then it's still like, let's not take them to the concert that we're going to as a family this weekend.

18:46There can still be a consequence, obviously, but you want to foster an environment where your kids feel like they're doing the exact thing you want them to do. They're telling you when they messed up and they're telling you the truth.

18:59Casey:So in that case, if I'm the kid, I'm like, I'm not telling you the truth again because I just lost the concert for kind of doing the right thing. And as a kid, you probably understand there's going to be some sort of consequence, but like you don't, you want to be careful not to punish the behavior that you want to see. Yeah. So that's good. I like, that's why we talk about like kind of practicing kid practices, coming and saying, mom, dad, I didn't do my homework. I lied about that. And then the parents practice not reacting and overreacting to it so that there's a baseline level for me at least, which is kids are supposed to make mistakes and mess up.

19:38Casey:So I'm not shocked by it. Yeah. And you want them to trust you. They want you want them to be able to come to you and they learn this when they're young, but like you want them to be able to come to you when they're teenagers and they do things like go to prom and drink. Like if they can't trust you with small things, then they're not going to trust you with bigger things. It's the same with us being more kids being more responsible. Um, I think, uh, the feeling that it's never, ever, ever good enough for you as parents, like that's huge. Um, feeling like our parents don't really listen to understand, like they're listening just so that they can prove their point and invalidate whatever we're thinking or feeling.

20:21Um, that's huge. And then, And I think one of the most effective things parents can do is make honesty safer than dishonesty. So it doesn't mean eliminating consequences, but you're responding to difficult truths with enough calm that the child thinks, OK, I may get in trouble. There's going to be a consequence, but I can still tell my parents what happened. and then I think like when a child does open up listening first often matters more than immediately correcting them a response like thanks for telling me help me understand what happened kind of helps preserve honesty while allowing the parent to address the behavior afterwards if that makes sense gotcha I actually have a question for you if it's okay that's not

21:11Casey:how this works, but go ahead. What did you worry about when I was a kid that turned out not to be a huge deal? Like, like I get, we get a lot of questions from parents who are like, okay, well, my kid is doing this and I'm worried about how that's going to impact him when he's 25. Like, what did you worry about with me when I was a teenager or younger that turned out not to be a big deal. If I'm being honest, just about everything. And what I didn't realize then was it's just our parental anxiety. You see your child doing something at age three, like preschool. Oh, he can't sit still. He talks back.

21:50Casey:He walks around. He's not following directions. And then as a good parent, you're like, I'm trying to raise a child who can follow directions and be successful in life. And then you just project out into the future. Or, you know, we talk all the time about middle school kids, middle school kids, it's a hibernation phase. They're not always that motivated. And so you think, oh, are they ever going to be self-motivated? What's going to happen to my child? But that's hopefully what I bring because I'm older now is to be able to help parents know like you don't have to stress over everything. Focus more on yourself and changing and modeling things than worrying about what your kids are doing.

22:30Casey:So a lot of it. If we went back and looked at your report cards of what the school and teachers were saying about you and compared that to you and your adult life, it would be unrecognizable. So you can chill. Okay, here's a good question. It kind of related to that. If you felt labeled or grew up feeling like the bad kid or the difficult kid, and you're now, say, a little bit older, is there something a parent could do to change or fix that feeling if the parent feels partly responsible? I'll just rephrase. Many of our kids don't feel like the good kid. They struggle. So what could parents do now?

23:12Yeah. I wouldn't expect one apology to suddenly erase years of feeling like I'm the difficult kid and I'm always in trouble. If that's how you see yourself, then it takes more time to believe that your parents or other adults see you differently. The first thing I would personally want is for my parents to actually own it. Not like, oh, I'm really sorry you felt that way. More of a, I think we sometimes treated you like you were the problem instead of recognizing that you were a kid who was struggling, who was wired differently, who was strong willed, whatever it was. And I'm sorry about that.

23:52And I think that affected the way you saw yourself. I think a statement like that could be hugely helpful. I also I wouldn't make the child take care of the parents feelings. Don't immediately ask, do you forgive me? Like they're going to need some time to process this. So like, let them be upset. Let them be angry. Let them say, yeah, you did make me feel that way. You ask them to be honest. So don't punish them emotionally when they are. Another huge thing is to start noticing them differently. Like if all of their life, all they've heard is like, you're irresponsible, you're difficult, you're lazy, you're argumentative, then begin pointing out the other side of those traits.

24:36You're really good at thinking for yourself. You're persistent. I love that you question things. You've handled that really well. Like pay attention. I think my dad talks about it a lot. Like give affirmation for the things that your kids are doing well and focus on that. Um, and make sure it feels genuine. Um, I think, I think parents can say like, Hey, I'm like, you can be honest. I'm trying to change the way I relate to you. If I fall back into treating you like the same difficult 10 year old, then call me out on it and give them a way to do that appropriately so that they're not like, yeah, I think you can imagine what they would say.

25:15I think if they're in their teenage years, they're probably also forming an identity that's completely separate from their parents. So your parent doesn't have complete control over whether you continue seeing yourself as like the bad kid, but you as the parent can stop reinforcing that. like acknowledge the part that you played in creating that but start building a different relationship and I think if the relationship is super contentious I really like written notes as a form of communication it takes some of that pressure away from the kid to respond immediately it allows processing time and it takes it it makes it just like less awkward I think communicating with teenagers notes can be super effective in general because it's like hey I have some thoughts on this we we touched it later yeah we would text sometimes because now there's not the face-to-face

26:09Casey:thing i think from uh not that you asked me but from the parents perspective it's just that shift in thinking of just being all anxious and saying okay i watched my child do that begin looking deeper underneath the surface of like i use it a lot but like the arguing and your kids being a little attorney, well, in order to argue well, you have to listen to your parent, what they're saying. You then have to process it. You have to develop another line of thinking. You have to be persuasive and persistent. It doesn't mean you let kids get away with things, but just begin, slow down and watch what they're doing, how they're building with their Legos and saying, wow, you put a lot of time and effort into that when it didn't go well and you had to redo your whole structure.