Why You Do NOT Want Kids to Be Immediately Obedient: Raising Fearless Leaders, Not Fearful Robots. #636

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2:13Do you ever feel guilty or like you're doing something wrong because your strong-willed child isn't very compliant? Does this cause you to sometimes see your child as defiant or bad? Do you have a spouse who insists that your kids listen right away and obey? And this is causing conflict in your home because now you're caught in the middle of trying to be the peacekeeper between an adult with unrealistic standards and kids who are just being kids. Do you have parents or family who judge and pressure you because they have religious beliefs you don't agree with? Well, that's a ton of pressure. And I want you to be free from that and show you a different way to motivate strong will kids.

2:52So that is what we're going to discuss on today's episode of the Calm Parenting Podcast. So welcome. This is Kirk Martin, founder of Celebrate Calm. You can find us and our back-to-school sale at CelebrateCalm.com. So I posted a video on Instagram about the myth of immediate obedience, and the overwhelming response was, hey, can you do a podcast on this topic? So I am, and I do appreciate all the feedback from our Instagram community. Those of you on Facebook and TikTok, I just can't spend much time there. So come over to Instagram at Calm Parenting Podcast, because I'm very interactive with people there.

3:28Okay, so I believe the idea of immediate obedience is wrong, harmful, against human nature, and cannot be justified even by your religious family members who judge you. It ultimately will not work and will ruin your relationship with your strong-willed child. Now, here are some additional wonderful benefits of pursuing this path. It will cause dissension in your marriage, crush your child's spirit, and provoke real defiance. It is an unfair expectation of you as the parent. So see, you get judged and you feel guilty because your strong-willed child resists everything you say. You begin to think, what did I do wrong?

4:12Do we need to be tougher? No, it's never going to work with this child. unless you bring to bear enough fear, intimidation, and threats to shut this child down or just create a fearful child. It is also an unfair and unrealistic expectation of a strong-willed child. So they end up being labeled as bad, defiant, disobedient. And the worst thing is they often begin to internalize that, and that will lead to a lot of issues down the road, and you do not want that. So I want to free you and your kids from this false expectation. The truth is your strong-willed child is never, never, ever, ever going to do things the way you want them done.

5:00They will reject what you want first, question it, wrestle with how they could do it differently. You do not have to be permissive or let them get away with things. And I'm going to cover that in the next podcast episode. So you can learn how to get them to listen and get them out the door. But you need to accept that this is how they are made. It's how they're wired. And you have to work with their nature instead of against it. Look, I prefer strong-willed kids. I didn't like it when our son was little because he was really difficult. They naturally resist arbitrary and largely kind of stupid rules.

5:41The real problem is that compliant people pleasers actually put up with these arbitrary social and religious standards and even academic school standards, and they never dared to question things. Well, see, that makes things easier in life, so that becomes the norm. Then along comes your questioning strong-willed child with great critical thinking skills, a natural curiosity, a desire to do things differently, and then we label them as defiant and disobedient, and that's damaging. And all they're doing sometimes is standing up and saying, hey, that doesn't seem right. That seems kind of arbitrary.

6:23And a lot of our institutions, including churches and schools, have shut those kids down and said, no, no, you don't get the question. Look, if I'm being honest, I would be a little bit more worried if I had a child who was always compliant, who seemed to want to always please others. Yet makes life easier for a while. But it can lead to unhealthy patterns of neglecting your own needs and trying to please everybody else and make everybody else happy. and many of you struggle with that. And that always leads to being exhausted and resentful. And look, compliant girls who are never allowed to speak up, guess what?

7:03They marry controlling men a lot of the time. It doesn't end well. Now, by the end of this episode, I'm going to show you a different, better way to raise what you and I really want. A child who is curious, loving, and responsible, just not immediately obedient. So let's break this down from several angles. Developmentally, I think it's unnatural to expect kids to be immediately obedient. When a toddler wakes up every single day, they are experiencing a brand new world with shiny objects. Their job description is to be curious and explore and make messes and ruin your agenda as a parent. Do you think they are really tuned into you while they are exploring this new world they are encountering?

7:49I think their job is to begin exposing our own impatience and our immaturity. And as they get older, they begin using their critical thinking skills to weigh options and the consequences of continuing to do what they are doing. Or do I listen to my parents? And yes, sometimes they're selfish and they just want to do their own thing, just like I am. But have you ever noticed, say, that 8 or 10-year-old weighing the options? Huh, my mom and dad said to stop doing this or I will lose my screens. But I kind of think it's way too much fun to stop doing this. So I'll take the consequence. I'm not saying it's right.

8:34I am saying it is developmentally appropriate and normal. And if you have a child with ADHD, it makes it even harder. Look, I'm not making excuses. I'm just being realistic. With hormones raging through those awkward tween years and friends becoming more important as kids seek their independence from parents, I can see why older kids would tune you out at times and just be preoccupied with their own world and their own friends. Again, not an excuse. It doesn't mean I don't expect them to listen to you, but they're just not always going to do it immediately. Now, some of you struggle because you have a spouse who expects and demands immediate compliance and is causing conflict and division within your home.

9:23This happened in our home when Casey was young. So I'll just make it personal. I was raised with this expectation by a career military father. And guess what? My brothers and I, we turned out okay. So I thought, well, that's the way we're going to do it. I hadn't yet worked through the fact that my father used fear and intimidation to accomplish this obedience. And it's very common for dads to think, well, this kid needs to learn to listen and follow directions. Fair enough, that's true. But for me, there was something deeper here. I learned that in order to get my dad's approval, which was rare and hard to get, I needed to be very compliant and never speak up.

10:08and it worked. I was the golden child. Only I had basically changed my whole personality and sacrificed my true self in order to not get hit and in order to get my dad to occasionally approve of me. And that's a powerful trade-off. It was probably a smart choice as a kid, given what happened to my two older brothers who didn't do this. But it causes long-term issues. And to be honest, my wife experienced the same dynamic with her mom. Look, I understand why a mom or dad would want their child to be immediately compliant. It's out of love. Because you really think, look, if I raise a compliant, easy child, life will be easier for them.

10:53Teachers and other parents will like them. They won't get in trouble. They'll keep a stable job. They'll have a good corporate career. I get that. I also know that this expectation can also be born of a parent's immaturity. And there's no blame or guilt. I'm just asking you to be honest with this. Sometimes it's just easier to raise compliant kids. They don't require anything of you. You ask or tell them to do something and they just do it. And you feel like such a good parent. But the strong-willed child is going to require you to learn to be patient. They're going to expose your own immaturity and triggers you didn't know you had or that you have suppressed for a long time.

11:41This stronghold child is going to extract something from you emotionally and cause you to either grow up or you're just going to dig in and ruin your relationship with your child and spouse all the while feeling justified because they're disobedient and won't listen. I get that. I used to think that way. And if that's where you are right now, I encourage you, try a different way for the next couple weeks. Humble yourself. Admit that your way isn't the only way or always the right way. I also understand your legitimate concerns. You are afraid you are going to let your child get away with things, that you are going to be permissive and raise an irresponsible, entitled child.

12:23You'll fear that you are not being a good parent if your child doesn't listen to you right away. And I get that 100%. But I promise if you listen to the end and then listen to the follow-up podcast on Wednesday on Five Ways to Get Your Kids to Listen, I'll show you a different way. Now let's reframe what we're really after here. What are our goals? See, in school, our goal wasn't to raise a child who gets good grades, but a child who's curious, loves to learn, and has a positive attitude toward life. We also moved from wanting an obedient child to wanting to raise a responsible child. See, an obedient child just carries out the largely arbitrary wishes of an authority figure.

13:05That's a rule follower. But I watch our son now in his other job. The reason he got promoted quickly isn't because he's good at following directions. It's because he is a responsible leader. He can think quickly on his feet, assess situations, use good critical thinking skills, problem solve difficult situations, make decisions, and then lead a team. The president of the company doesn't have to micromanage him. He just gives Casey an objective and then gives Casey leeway or what we call ownership to responsibly achieve the objective. And that's what we ultimately want. I'll throw out another one.

13:44I would rather have a loving child, a compassionate child than an obedient child. Many of your kids, they have really big hearts. They do. And they're sensitive kids. But they're just not always good at the kid world. Look, I don't care if Casey follows explicit rules from society all the time. What I really care about is how do you treat people you meet in life, especially of those that come from tough backgrounds, that are poor, who work for you, who sometimes come against you. And the answer is that he's not always obedient to outward rules, but he always does the right thing toward human beings.

14:23And look, I know that's not mutually exclusive. You can do both. But when I'm looking at his life, I'm looking at this. He's doing the right things. Consider this as well. Almost all the innovative features and luxuries of modern life have been created by people who didn't follow the rules. They all are called disruptors for a reason because they will disrupt your comfort and deeply held beliefs, which leads us to your family and parents or maybe a spouse who have these deeply held beliefs that kids are supposed to be immediately obedient and you're going to get judged by them and feel defensive and I don't want you to have to do that.

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17:56Head to Wayfair.com or shop the Wayfair app for all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Now, many of these ideas are rooted in religious beliefs, so I want to address this directly. I'm going to ask those of you who are not religious or have been hurt by religion, which is a lot of people, to just bear with me here for one paragraph of explanation. I think you'll find it interesting from a human nature standpoint. I would confidently remind your family of these facts. Moses was not immediately obedient. He argued with God because he didn't have a good speaking voice, and wasn't a good leader.

18:39Abraham was not immediately obedient. He fathered a child with his wife's servant. Most of us know the general story of the prodigal son. The strong-willed kid blows his father's inheritance on wild living, but watch how the story ends. It is a good, compliant child who says, I have always done what you have asked of me, father. That's the one who has the bitter, resentful heart, while the strong-willed son is humble. Finally, there's this great parable in which a father tells his two sons to go do their chores in the vineyard. And the compliant child, the one we all want, is kind of like Eddie Haskell of his time.

19:16Of course, father, right away. But he never goes and does the work. The other son is the one we have. His response, duh, vineyard work is stupid. I'm not going. But then later, he changes his mind and goes and does the work. And which one is pronounced the obedient child? It was the one who initially resisted, but then went later. That is exactly who your child is. Things have not changed in centuries. So your kids resist it first, say no, but then you give them space and they do it. So the religious expectation of immediate obedience is absolutely wrong. I hope that gives you confidence in talking to your family members.

20:04No more being defensive. So I want to show you how this played out in our home and find a kind of a different path we ultimately took. And then on Wednesday, I'll show you more specific ways to get your kids to listen. So in case he was young, I did have this expectation of immediate compliance. So my idea was I'll walk into a room, I give my son instructions. hey, you need to do these three chores right now. And his response would be, of course, Father. I wasn't having a good time playing video games or texting my friends. I was hoping you would give me additional chores so I could learn the value of hard work and obedience, sir.

20:41Yeah, I never heard that, and neither will you. Instead, you're going to hear this, uh, duh, chores are stupid. And then my response would be, you know what? You will not only do your chores, you'll do them with a smile on your face. And I have to ask why. Why do we have to control our kids' emotions and their attitudes all the time? I just want my son to rake the leaves. I don't need him to be happy about it. Listen, I'll pop some popcorn, pull up a lawn chair, and watch him be miserable. So I began doing this differently with Casey and the 1 ,500 kids we worked with. So let's say it's 4 o 'clock in the afternoon.

21:18I come knock on Casey's door. ideally spend 60 seconds asking him about something he cares about because that's connection. And I say, hey, Case, I want these three chores done by 7 p.m. Let me know if you have any questions or need help. And then I removed myself very quickly from his room. Why? Two reasons. Number one, I expect pushback because it's human nature and it is your child's nature. Look, the last 87 times you asked your child to do something, what was their response? They resisted, argued, asked why, said no. So leave the room because you know what your child's response is going to be.

22:05Do I have to? And I don't want you to get caught in an endless lecture or argument and have to say, you know, when I was a kid, look, it's just a big hook they dangle. and then you bite on it every time. Then you get sucked into an argument. They negotiate very well. And before long, you are the one doing the chores. So in our programs, we call it initial bluster. I ignore initial bluster. I give the strong-willed child some space to register their disappointment and even verbalize it without us, without you standing over them, correcting them for their bad attitude, shaming them for not being grateful for all the privileges you've given them.

22:49So you give them an instruction in an even matter of fact business-like manner, then remove yourself and give space. How many of you have noticed that your kids will resist? Then when you're not watching a few minutes later, they reluctantly get up and do what you asked. Number two, I also remove myself quickly because your child is not going to do his chores the way you want them to do it. In the way that you want, in the timing that you want. And we'll say things like, you know, because if you would just do your chores now, it will only take 22 minutes. And then you'll have the rest of the night to do whatever you want.

23:30And your kids don't respond to that logic. You know what? the most effective, efficient way to do your chores is do A, then B, then C. And then you always start with the hardest chore first to get it over with. But they won't do it this way. They're going to procrastinate. They're going to wait. And that's going to trigger your anxiety and control issues like it triggered mine because my dad was career military. And if you weren't five minutes early, you were 10 minutes late. And so most of our kids, think about it, they're terrible chores in the home and they're amazing at being responsible for other adults.

24:06How many of you have teens who really like their jobs outside the home with bosses who sing their praises? Well, that's good because that's what you're raising them to be, responsible toward other people. So I'm going to use this example simply because it is fun. It demonstrates this dance we go through with our strong-willed kids that other people just don't get. So I asked my son, hey, it's four o 'clock, three chores done by 7 p.m. It's 5 p.m. Has my child done anything? Nope. It's 6 p.m. Nope. It's now 6.37 and they finally begin doing their chores. But inside it triggers you because they didn't leave enough time and now they're going to do a half job.

24:47And how are they ever going to be successful if they wait till the last moment and don't do everything with excellence? And that's just your anxiety projecting into the future. And we'll say like, hey, the best way is to do it A, then B, then C. But your stronghold child is always going to begin with C. Why? Because that's just how they do it. And then on the way to doing B, they walk by the bathroom and think, hmm, it'd be interesting to take the toilet apart and not put it back together. And I will tell you, without a doubt, that is the one thing you want your kids doing more than anything else, including chores.

25:21You want them following their curiosity, tinkering with their hands, figuring out how things work. I didn't say sitting and scrolling on screens for seven hours, but I said following that curiosity of figuring out how things work, even if it wasn't on your list. And then they finally do, A, the final chore, but now they're sweeping the kitchen floor with the broom behind their back and between their legs and missing some of the crumbs. And it will irritate you and frustrate you, and you will want to yell and lecture. I get that. But instead you bite your tongue and through clenched teeth, give your strong-willed child a fist bump and say, nice job completing your chores.

26:02But they didn't do them the right way or the way their siblings would do them. And you're just going to have to wrestle with that. Look, you have to grade on a curve with these kids with certain things. Otherwise you will be perpetually displeased with them. They will never live up to your standards. And it just won't work. I've done episodes on chores before. Look back in July 2024, so I get your concerns, but I wouldn't, seriously, don't get upset about that. Now, if they don't get their chores done, which is what everybody listening to this is like, well, what if they don't get the three chores done by 7 p.m.?

26:40I get that. You say, hey, no screens, no fun until chores are done. Next time they request that you take them somewhere or buy something, you just say, yeah, well, not until chore C is done. There's no drama in that. And I go through that. I've been through that in a million other places. Look, I like having fun with this example just to demonstrate this is likely how things will often go down with your strong-willed child. So you know that you're not alone, that you're not doing something wrong. So you know it's very normal for kids to not be immediately obedient. On the next podcast, I'm going to show you five specific ways to get your kids moving.

27:16But for now, let go of those false expectations of yourself that keep you feeling guilty and that keep you pressuring your child. Give them some space and ownership to do it differently. If you have our programs, ask your parents or family members to listen to those, especially the Strong Will of Childhood, ADHD University, and the Discipline That Works program to start. Just email Casey and he will send that access to them if you have our program. So you can all get on the same page. And if you really struggle with this, go and listen to the Discipline That Works program. Because we show you how to do it in a way that actually works.